Since the banning of Cloudpost, ramp has been a largely ineffective, slow, easily disruptible strategy. Tron does not adequately replace 12-post, but perhaps we're looking to tron just because of its similarity to 12-post rather than looking at alternate ramp strategies.
We have access to some excellent ways to cheat wincons into play, and an excellent toolbox of critters at our disposal. With cards like Through the Breach, Tooth and Nail, Elvish Piper and Summoning Trap, it seems to me that all we need is a reliable way to produce 5-7 mana on turn 3 or 4.
The questions are:
What color(s)? Does it make the most sense to run a UG strategy with a decent control shell? RUG?
What ramp strategy is least disruptible? Elves take up too many slots and are weak, and signets aren't very fast. Perhaps some of the plethora of green ramp sorceries? Scapeshift? Red rituals? Perhaps a combination.
What sort of toolbox does this deck need to be effective in the meta?
What wincons are least disruptible and most consistent? Big creatures? Control locks?
I know some of you have been trying to build this deck for some time, and perhaps you have had some success. Please post lists.
I disagree about Tron working well. It requires 3 pieces, and the assembled Tron only produces 7 mana. Compare that to Post (admittedly degenerate) which produced 7 mana off 2x Cloudpost + 1x Glimmerpost and also gained you up to 3 life.
I think this deck might be doable with a Lotus Cobra engine, but not as long as Punishing Fire is in the format. Some Vintage decks run Cobra + Gush to generate lots of mana and card advantage, so that might be a place to start (Lotus Cobra + bouncing your own lands). Here is a search result showing cards that fit this pattern in the format: Ravnica bouncelands, Deprive, Fathom Seer, the Borderposts, Meloku, Trade Routes. Also of note that is not in the result is Oboro, Palace in the Clouds.
actually, 7 or 8 mana in an enchantress style strategy might be viable. Consider that you can go first turn forest, utopia sprawl, t2 forest fertile ground (doesn't have to be forest, obviously), t3, drop a garruk, the wildspeaker and just go to town on mana. You can then use cards like verduran enchantress to keep drawing cards. Admittedly, you don't gain the crazy shenanigans that legacy enchantress does, but you could power out a lot of stuff!
It's pretty ironic that Death Cloud is the last ramp deck alive. That deck ramps up mana in the first few turns with Sakura-Tribe Elder (block a dude, get a land? Awesome!) and Garruk Wildspeaker (ramps, makes men, etc.). Its ideal Turn 4 play at this point is Death Cloud with X = 3. No one has a hand, no one has creatures, your opponent has no lands, you still have a land, and you get to make a Beast or two.
So simple it seems stupid... but.. it actually works..
What if we use reasonably-sized fatties? you know, cards that aren't I WIN cards, per se, but they get the job done? It seems like ramp is focused almost entirely on instant wins, when really it could just be used to make BIG aggro speedier, less combo-ey. Still too slow? Let's have a look at this mono-G shell. Please note that I have actually tested the list below on trice before posting it here and went 3-1, 1-1, against 2 jank lists.
Ive been playing around with an Azusa deck that uses Amulet of Vigor and bounce lands such as Simic Growth Chamber to produce insane amounts of mana (usually for Tooth and Nail). Its doing alright so far, but needs to be played more and developed further before I think it can have a shot taking a top spot in the format. It is definitely showing potential though.
Ive been playing around with an Azusa deck that uses Amulet of Vigor and bounce lands such as Simic Growth Chamber to produce insane amounts of mana. Its doing alright so far, but needs to be played more and developed further before I think it can have a shot taking a top spot in the format. It is definitely showing potential though.
I tried a similar build, based (i think) on one of your posts. It was pretty epic, but holy guacamole it got complicated fast. If I had played around with it a little more, I think I would have gotten better results. When you're bouncing 5-7 lands per turn, things start to get hairy. But it is SOLID. I can attest to that. If you don't mind sharing your list, I would like to play with it.
Actually, what I've found is that G/r Ramp is actually pretty good. It's toughest match is game 1 Gifts and most combo, but it does reasonably well everywhere else. I've been running this:
I tried a similar build, based (i think) on one of your posts. It was pretty epic, but holy guacamole it got complicated fast. If I had played around with it a little more, I think I would have gotten better results. When you're bouncing 5-7 lands per turn, things start to get hairy. But it is SOLID. I can attest to that. If you don't mind sharing your list, I would like to play with it.
The single biggest issue I have (the same issue every ramp deck has) is drawing all ramp with nothing to sink it into. Ive probably added a few more mana sink cards since the last time you saw my deck. Currently testing out how I like RSZ and Trinket Mage, as well as seeing if 2x Kessig Wolf Run is the right number to run.
I still have yet to give Iona/Painter's Servant a shot, but that is mostly because I dont want to overhaul my mana base.
The single biggest issue I have (the same issue every ramp deck has) is drawing all ramp with nothing to sink it into.
You want a mana-sink? Helix Pinnacle. Hey, didn't say that it had to be good...
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Yea, I am trying out a few different x spells. I am gonna try a 1 of Comet Storm and either Banefire or Devil's Play to see how I like them. RSZ is underwhelming.
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We have access to some excellent ways to cheat wincons into play, and an excellent toolbox of critters at our disposal. With cards like Through the Breach, Tooth and Nail, Elvish Piper and Summoning Trap, it seems to me that all we need is a reliable way to produce 5-7 mana on turn 3 or 4.
The questions are:
What color(s)? Does it make the most sense to run a UG strategy with a decent control shell? RUG?
What ramp strategy is least disruptible? Elves take up too many slots and are weak, and signets aren't very fast. Perhaps some of the plethora of green ramp sorceries? Scapeshift? Red rituals? Perhaps a combination.
What sort of toolbox does this deck need to be effective in the meta?
What wincons are least disruptible and most consistent? Big creatures? Control locks?
I know some of you have been trying to build this deck for some time, and perhaps you have had some success. Please post lists.
CG
I think this deck might be doable with a Lotus Cobra engine, but not as long as Punishing Fire is in the format. Some Vintage decks run Cobra + Gush to generate lots of mana and card advantage, so that might be a place to start (Lotus Cobra + bouncing your own lands). Here is a search result showing cards that fit this pattern in the format: Ravnica bouncelands, Deprive, Fathom Seer, the Borderposts, Meloku, Trade Routes. Also of note that is not in the result is Oboro, Palace in the Clouds.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
What if we use reasonably-sized fatties? you know, cards that aren't I WIN cards, per se, but they get the job done? It seems like ramp is focused almost entirely on instant wins, when really it could just be used to make BIG aggro speedier, less combo-ey. Still too slow? Let's have a look at this mono-G shell. Please note that I have actually tested the list below on trice before posting it here and went 3-1, 1-1, against 2 jank lists.
3 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Primeval Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
4 Explore
4 Harmonize
2 Chord of Calling
1 Crucible of Worlds
Land (25)
15 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Obstinate Baloth
4 Krosan Grip
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
2 Beast Within
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I tried a similar build, based (i think) on one of your posts. It was pretty epic, but holy guacamole it got complicated fast. If I had played around with it a little more, I think I would have gotten better results. When you're bouncing 5-7 lands per turn, things start to get hairy. But it is SOLID. I can attest to that. If you don't mind sharing your list, I would like to play with it.
CG
16 Forest
2 Kessig Wolf-Run
1 Mountain
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Wall of Roots
4 Overgrown Battlement
4 Dungrove Elder
4 Primeval Titan
4 Pelakka Wurm
2 Gaea's Revenge
4 Cultivate
3 Chord of Calling
4 Beast Within
4 Ancient Grudge
4 Slagstorm
2 Gaea's Revenge
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
3 Summoner's Trap
This is my current version of it:
4x Lotus Cobra
3x Primeval Titan
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
2x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Trinket Mage
1x Patron of the Moon
1x Hedron Crab
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Urabrask the Hidden
4x Amulet of Vigor
4x Tooth and Nail
3x Mana Leak
2x Summer Bloom
2x Red Sun's Zenith
Land: 25
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Simic Growth Chamber
3x Breeding Pool
2x Gruul Turf
2x Stomping Ground
2x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Raging Ravine
4x Forest
The single biggest issue I have (the same issue every ramp deck has) is drawing all ramp with nothing to sink it into. Ive probably added a few more mana sink cards since the last time you saw my deck. Currently testing out how I like RSZ and Trinket Mage, as well as seeing if 2x Kessig Wolf Run is the right number to run.
I still have yet to give Iona/Painter's Servant a shot, but that is mostly because I dont want to overhaul my mana base.
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You want a mana-sink? Helix Pinnacle. Hey, didn't say that it had to be good...
On Mythic Rares: "What's next, Wizards will print six golden Black Lotuses and randomly place them in boosters, and if someone gets one, they get to tour the Wizards facility?"
Wydwen|Edric|Sakashima|Marrow-Gnawer|Hazezon
8.5 Tails|Seton|Rasputin|Doran|Gisela|Karona|Márton
Or you could just run Chord of Calling...
I really, really like Chord of Calling in this deck. It's an instant GSZ without the color restriction. What's not to like?
CG
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