I think putting Snapcaster in every single deck is silly, but how is Snapcaster not card advantage? If you cast a spell, and it goes to your graveyard, you have lost that card. If you use Snapcaster, you get to recast that spell, it's as if you are casting it from your hand again, plus you get a 2/1 body. Control decks love this kind of advantage.
Snapcaster is a more expensive version of whatever you flashblack. It does help deck building and it gives blue a way to use gifts without having to run eternal witness, but it doesn't win the game the turn you play it. It does not give you card advantage unless you flash back a card draw spell or you actually kill something with the meager 2/1 body.
I really think you are under estimating him. When you see someone who really understands how to take full advantage of Snapcaster you may change your opinion. I know I thought the same as you until I watch a couple high level players abuse the heck out of him and turn a few games completely around in there favor.
I also agree some of the more abusable cards that Snapcaster coud be good for are banned.
When you say snapcaster zoo did bad, its the first chance they have gotten to play with it in a tourny setting. Give it time. Some people expect too much too fast sometimes.
Time will tell but I think Snappy will fall somewhere under mosts expectations but above others. Snapcaster can singlehandedly turn a game around in your favor the turn it comes out. I have seen it done multiple times. Thats pure power. Thats why I say hes just under SFM power level but above the rest. Especially Goyf who I think too many give way too much praise.
I think putting Snapcaster in every single deck is silly, but how is Snapcaster not card advantage? If you cast a spell, and it goes to your graveyard, you have lost that card. If you use Snapcaster, you get to recast that spell, it's as if you are casting it from your hand again, plus you get a 2/1 body. Control decks love this kind of advantage.
Same was said about Goyf when people realized the power of the card. I do agree with the last part of your statement 110%. I think Snappy will single handedly make control more viable in the format.
"Card advantage" in the quantified sense is not the point of snapcaster. The point of snapcaster is that with him in hand, your basically have more cards in your grip, giving you more options.
I think putting Snapcaster in every single deck is silly, but how is Snapcaster not card advantage? If you cast a spell, and it goes to your graveyard, you have lost that card. If you use Snapcaster, you get to recast that spell, it's as if you are casting it from your hand again, plus you get a 2/1 body. Control decks love this kind of advantage.
ok let me explain to you how card advantage works. Something is card advantage when
A. after casting it you end up with more cards in hand.(this is called self-relevance since it only considered your hand)
B. It deals with multiple things your opponent plays.(this is match relevance because you technically aren't up any cards but your opponent is down cards)
So say I path to exile a a wild nactl. That is a 1 for 1 because I use one card from my hand(path) to deal with 1 card that was in their hand.(nactl)
So then they play another wild nactl(or whatever) and end of turn I use snapcaster on that path in my yard. I trade 1 card in my hand(snapcaster) for one card that was in their hand.(nactl) In this scenario snapcaster is only card advantage if you trade the 2/1 body with something(which is super rare in modern) or they are dumb enough to use removal on it.
Now the reason I say snapcaster is as good as what you flash back is this. Snapcaster can be card advantage.
A. I flashback a divination or other 2 for 1 card draw spell.(self-relevance)
B. I flashback a wrath of god that kills at least 2 creatures.(match relevance)
"Card advantage" in the quantified sense is not the point of snapcaster. The point of snapcaster is that with him in hand, your basically have more cards in your grip, giving you more options.
You don't have more cards in your hand. You have the same number of cards but they do more ****. The best part of snapcaster and what is highly overlooked is how it allows control a bit of duality which it was lacking. I honestly haven't even seen anyone use it in that sense yet.
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Time will tell but I think Snappy will fall somewhere under mosts expectations but above others. Snapcaster can singlehandedly turn a game around in your favor the turn it comes out. I have seen it done multiple times. Thats pure power. Thats why I say hes just under SFM power level but above the rest. Especially Goyf who I think too many give way too much praise.
Snapcaster will only turn a game in your favor if that spell will turn the game in your favor. A wrath on a clogged board is essentially the same as a "snapped" wrath on the board except for it is cheaper.
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Snapcaster is always card advantage, it lets you replay a spell and you get a body. So Snapcasting a bolt on a Nacatl results in you trading a card from your graveyard for his nacatl and you still have a 2/1. Just like Bloodbraid is always CA as long as you cast the card you flip up.
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But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Snapcaster is always card advantage, it lets you replay a spell and you get a body. So Snapcasting a bolt on a Nacatl results in you trading a card from your graveyard for his nacatl and you still have a 2/1. Just like Bloodbraid is always CA as long as you cast the card you flip up.
a 3/2 haste body actually has an effect. a 2/1 vanilla beater is not worth the extra 2.
Its only technically card advantage if you can get your opponent to waste removal on it or trade a creature with it. Most of the time in modern it only chump blocks.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
These kinds of discussions are always a little pointless, since there is no criteria for "best" being presented, so everyone uses their own criteria. One person says Goyf is number one because he is the easiest to drop into any deck, while another says Bob because he nets raw card advantage. Still another says Snappy because he gives you more options, and Stoneforge because she tutors and cheats.
In the end, the only cards in the whole of magic (as far as I know) that can currently win the game all on their own with no other support are Dryad Arbor and Memnite, so until there is some more criteria given, they remain the best cards in magic "in a vacuum"....
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slipknot, you really shouldn't be explaining how card advantage works if you don't understand it yourself. Snapcaster Mage in most situations provides card advantage.
Just because you don't like the 2/1 body does not make the card count change.
slipknot, you really shouldn't be explaining how card advantage works if you don't understand it yourself. Snapcaster Mage in most situations provides card advantage.
Just because you don't like the 2/1 body does not make the card count change.
so does it 2 for 1 your opponent....not usually.
does it replace itself and add an additional card into your hand....no.
It is not card advantage unless
A. the card you snap is card advantage itself(thirst for knowledge,ect)
B. You trade a removal spell or creature for the mage itself.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I'm not really sure how to explain it to you since you understand that it is leaving behind a creature. You just don't want that creature to count as a card until it is destroyed?
187 creatures have always worked this way. Sort of why they're the best type of creature.
Skinrender: yes. It is a removal spell and a 3/3 body in one. Saying that Skinrender is not card advantage is like saying Flametongue Kavu is not card advantage. It is, by definition, a 2-for-1, albeit conditional (only works on dudes < 4 toughness).
Silvergill Adept is more complex. I generally just regard it as a cantrip. Aether Vial might make it more of a 2-for-1, though, since you're not paying 5 mana or giving up information.
I'm not really sure how to explain it to you since you understand that it is leaving behind a creature. You just don't want that creature to count as a card until it is destroyed?
187 creatures have always worked this way. Sort of why they're the best type of creature.
You're not considering virtual card advantage/disadvantage, or how useful/dead a card is.Merchant of Secrets isn't too great.
Alright. Slipknot is a troll or just really bad at magic. I give up trying to understand his logic, since it is almost always pessimistic and just straight up wrong. Control is not impossible in Modern. Snapcaster is obviously card advantage (whether you are good enough to use it or not). You appear to know jack **** and every post you make is detrimental to the heath of this format. Just shut the **** up and stop posting in this forum because you do no good at all.
Are Silvergill Adept and Skinrender card advantage?
Skinrender yes because he kills something and a 3/3 body is relevant.
Silvergill adept is slightly harder to explain and is a lot more dependent on board state.
There is another system other than just saying card advantage that takes into account every aspect of a card, it's effect on board position, and other measurable which is then measured about against averages which are format specific.
HERE is an article explaining it sort of. It is a complex system that is still pretty far away from unified. It turns elements of cards into mana essentially to decide what is "best for your buck"
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Skinrender: yes. It is a removal spell and a 3/3 body in one. Saying that Skinrender is not card advantage is like saying Flametongue Kavu is not card advantage. It is, by definition, a 2-for-1, albeit conditional (only works on dudes < 4 toughness).
Silvergill Adept is more complex. I generally just regard it as a cantrip. Aether Vial might make it more of a 2-for-1, though, since you're not paying 5 mana or giving up information.
so if your opponent only has 4/4s skinrender isn't card advantage?
so if your opponent only has 4/4s skinrender isn't card advantage?
It depends. Is the target worth weakening (like a Titan)? Will it be virtually removed (power = 0)? This is a very complex situation. Card advantage is far from simple.
so if your opponent only has 4/4s skinrender isn't card advantage?
It is worth a chump blocker but the body isn't relevant anymore so essentially you lose your plus 1.
A more simple and slightly over simplified way to look at it is this:
Does this card increase my hand size.
Does this card decrease my opponents hand size.
Now this isn't a perfect measure by an means because your opponent decreases his hand size by playing things, which are sometimes relevant dependent on the situation.
I could probably write a 5000 word article on basic card advantage theory, and that doesn't even go into intermediate things like virtual card advantage or situational card advantage.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I mentioned it in another thread, Game theory that worked a few years ago in this game dont always carry over to todays magic. The game has evolved to a point that it makes alot of the older articles you keep posting are out dated.
Simple explanation of card advantage, do you get to play an extra spell your opponent doesnt have the oppertunity to play? are you playing your 5th spell you only have 4 of in your deck? if you can answer yes to either of those questions it card advantage.
Slip, have you noticed you are fighting everyone on almost every stance you have been taking in this format? From if control is viable, to what control is, to what midrange is, to now card advantage. Maybe its you who are not understanding some of the concepts of the game or the format. You bring up articles from years ago to try and prove your point, when in most cases those articles are out dated from a way the game was played in a past time. Just an observation I have seen. I wont even mention that every thread you seem to get involved with in this format ends up being a pissing contest between you and everyone else.
I understand what slipknot's saying; the 2/1 doesn't really count as a card, since it's so irrelevant. I simply don't agree. I've assasinated many a Dark Confidant with Snapcaster, Plus, lategame combined with a manland or two, he closes out games quickly.
Simple explanation of card advantage, do you get to play an extra spell your opponent doesnt have the oppertunity to play? are you playing your 5th spell you only have 4 of in your deck? if you can answer yes to either of those questions it card advantage.
Slip, have you noticed you are fighting everyone on almost every stance you have been taking in this format? From if control is viable, to what control is, to what midrange is, to now card advantage. Maybe its you who are not understanding some of the concepts of the game or the format. You bring up articles from years ago to try and prove your point, when in most cases those articles are out dated from a way the game was played in a past time. Just an observation I have seen. I wont even mention that every thread you seem to get involved with in this format ends up being a pissing contest between you and everyone else.
This. The best approach to trolls like him are to completely ignore his posts.
1. Stoneforge Mystic. Tinker is banned for a reason, and a limited Tinker is still a Tinker. Especially busted post-Batterskull. As it is the only card in the list that is banned, I'd say it's clearly the card Wizards (if not the community at large) is most afraid of.
2. Tarmogoyf. Arguably the best creature ever printed, definitely the most efficient beater ever. A turn 2 4/5 that gets even bigger on its own is ridiculous.
3. Snapcaster Mage. So much utility. Makes solid, efficient decks even more so. Card advantage + whatever you flashback. Yes. Please.
4. Dark Confidant. While I like him more than Snapcaster Mage, his requiring a turn to get the advantage makes him slightly weaker.
5. Lotus Cobra. Such power! Slightly worse than the others as ramp isn't as needed in this format.
It should be noted, however, that these are all really close together in my book. While none of these cards require you to build around them (except Stoneforge Mystic), they all get much better if you build around them a bit.
I think Slip is arguing that Snappy isn't really a card when you're facing a field full of Zoo decks and 3/3s for 1 mana. It's card advantage but the card advantage isn't too relevant against the (arguably) best deck in the format.
You guys need to stay on topic. Stoneforge mystic is not legal in modern thus does not warrant discussion in modern forums. Please try to stay on topic.
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I really think you are under estimating him. When you see someone who really understands how to take full advantage of Snapcaster you may change your opinion. I know I thought the same as you until I watch a couple high level players abuse the heck out of him and turn a few games completely around in there favor.
I also agree some of the more abusable cards that Snapcaster coud be good for are banned.
When you say snapcaster zoo did bad, its the first chance they have gotten to play with it in a tourny setting. Give it time. Some people expect too much too fast sometimes.
Time will tell but I think Snappy will fall somewhere under mosts expectations but above others. Snapcaster can singlehandedly turn a game around in your favor the turn it comes out. I have seen it done multiple times. Thats pure power. Thats why I say hes just under SFM power level but above the rest. Especially Goyf who I think too many give way too much praise.
Same was said about Goyf when people realized the power of the card. I do agree with the last part of your statement 110%. I think Snappy will single handedly make control more viable in the format.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
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Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
ok let me explain to you how card advantage works. Something is card advantage when
A. after casting it you end up with more cards in hand.(this is called self-relevance since it only considered your hand)
B. It deals with multiple things your opponent plays.(this is match relevance because you technically aren't up any cards but your opponent is down cards)
So say I path to exile a a wild nactl. That is a 1 for 1 because I use one card from my hand(path) to deal with 1 card that was in their hand.(nactl)
So then they play another wild nactl(or whatever) and end of turn I use snapcaster on that path in my yard. I trade 1 card in my hand(snapcaster) for one card that was in their hand.(nactl) In this scenario snapcaster is only card advantage if you trade the 2/1 body with something(which is super rare in modern) or they are dumb enough to use removal on it.
Now the reason I say snapcaster is as good as what you flash back is this. Snapcaster can be card advantage.
A. I flashback a divination or other 2 for 1 card draw spell.(self-relevance)
B. I flashback a wrath of god that kills at least 2 creatures.(match relevance)
You don't have more cards in your hand. You have the same number of cards but they do more ****. The best part of snapcaster and what is highly overlooked is how it allows control a bit of duality which it was lacking. I honestly haven't even seen anyone use it in that sense yet.
Snapcaster will only turn a game in your favor if that spell will turn the game in your favor. A wrath on a clogged board is essentially the same as a "snapped" wrath on the board except for it is cheaper.
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a 3/2 haste body actually has an effect. a 2/1 vanilla beater is not worth the extra 2.
Its only technically card advantage if you can get your opponent to waste removal on it or trade a creature with it. Most of the time in modern it only chump blocks.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
In the end, the only cards in the whole of magic (as far as I know) that can currently win the game all on their own with no other support are Dryad Arbor and Memnite, so until there is some more criteria given, they remain the best cards in magic "in a vacuum"....
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Just because you don't like the 2/1 body does not make the card count change.
so does it 2 for 1 your opponent....not usually.
does it replace itself and add an additional card into your hand....no.
It is not card advantage unless
A. the card you snap is card advantage itself(thirst for knowledge,ect)
B. You trade a removal spell or creature for the mage itself.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
187 creatures have always worked this way. Sort of why they're the best type of creature.
Silvergill Adept is more complex. I generally just regard it as a cantrip. Aether Vial might make it more of a 2-for-1, though, since you're not paying 5 mana or giving up information.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
You're not considering virtual card advantage/disadvantage, or how useful/dead a card is.Merchant of Secrets isn't too great.
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Skinrender yes because he kills something and a 3/3 body is relevant.
Silvergill adept is slightly harder to explain and is a lot more dependent on board state.
There is another system other than just saying card advantage that takes into account every aspect of a card, it's effect on board position, and other measurable which is then measured about against averages which are format specific.
HERE is an article explaining it sort of. It is a complex system that is still pretty far away from unified. It turns elements of cards into mana essentially to decide what is "best for your buck"
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
so if your opponent only has 4/4s skinrender isn't card advantage?
It depends. Is the target worth weakening (like a Titan)? Will it be virtually removed (power = 0)? This is a very complex situation. Card advantage is far from simple.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
It is worth a chump blocker but the body isn't relevant anymore so essentially you lose your plus 1.
A more simple and slightly over simplified way to look at it is this:
Does this card increase my hand size.
Does this card decrease my opponents hand size.
Now this isn't a perfect measure by an means because your opponent decreases his hand size by playing things, which are sometimes relevant dependent on the situation.
I could probably write a 5000 word article on basic card advantage theory, and that doesn't even go into intermediate things like virtual card advantage or situational card advantage.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Simple explanation of card advantage, do you get to play an extra spell your opponent doesnt have the oppertunity to play? are you playing your 5th spell you only have 4 of in your deck? if you can answer yes to either of those questions it card advantage.
Slip, have you noticed you are fighting everyone on almost every stance you have been taking in this format? From if control is viable, to what control is, to what midrange is, to now card advantage. Maybe its you who are not understanding some of the concepts of the game or the format. You bring up articles from years ago to try and prove your point, when in most cases those articles are out dated from a way the game was played in a past time. Just an observation I have seen. I wont even mention that every thread you seem to get involved with in this format ends up being a pissing contest between you and everyone else.
This. The best approach to trolls like him are to completely ignore his posts.
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2. Tarmogoyf. Arguably the best creature ever printed, definitely the most efficient beater ever. A turn 2 4/5 that gets even bigger on its own is ridiculous.
3. Snapcaster Mage. So much utility. Makes solid, efficient decks even more so. Card advantage + whatever you flashback. Yes. Please.
4. Dark Confidant. While I like him more than Snapcaster Mage, his requiring a turn to get the advantage makes him slightly weaker.
5. Lotus Cobra. Such power! Slightly worse than the others as ramp isn't as needed in this format.
It should be noted, however, that these are all really close together in my book. While none of these cards require you to build around them (except Stoneforge Mystic), they all get much better if you build around them a bit.
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