Wren's Run Vanquisher - she hasn't actually been that impressive. She's a 3/3 warrior for 2, but that's about it. Zoo and other green decks can play a much better card at that slot - Tarmogoyf - which, incidentally, is about the only thing the deathtouch really matters for. As well, she gives the opponent some info about your hand, which isn't really bad but a bit annoying. Also, if you happen to not have an elf in your hand...
Ghost Quarter Mainboard - I feel like 12-post is a big enough problem that we need Quarters in the main to combat it. They ramp about as quickly as we do (if we get an Archdruid - if not, faster), and their high-end spells are more impressive. The life they gain from Glimmerpost also hurts us. It sucks to run 7 lands that don't enable a turn 1 dork, but I think it's necessary. Perhaps it would be better to run fewer Oran-Riefs, or move 1 Quarter to the SB.
Elvish Champion - first off, as you could guess by my screen name, this is my favorite MTG card and the card that brought me into the game. It's insane vs Zoo and other decks running green.
Bring in vs: Decks running forests
Ghost Quarter - the fourth copy. Invaluable vs Land-based (excluding Loam-based) strategies.
Bring in vs: 12-post, Tron, other decks with land-based strategies
Krosan Grip - uncounterable removal for artifacts and enchantments that need to be killed. Examples - Ghostly Prison (MWC), Swords (not as big since Stoneforge Mystic was bad but still a problem), Aether Vial (Goblins, Merfolk, and other decks), Tempered Steel or Cranial Plating (Affinity).
Bring in vs: Decks with problem artifacts/enchants
Gaea's Herald - control decks like to counter our lords. Use this guy to stop that jank.
Bring in vs: Decks running counterspells
Obstinate Baloth - while not an elf, this guy is too invaluable against aggro as well as decks running Blightning (Jund, Cruel Control). As well, Megrim discard strategies (don't laugh, I've seen a few) hate this guy. He's great vs all aggro, but especially Zoo, because he's out of Bolt/Helix range and can profitably block Wild Nacatl and all their 2/3s.
Bring in vs: Aggro decks, decks that run Blightning-style discard.
Other possibilities: Elvish Visionary - replaces itself, and provides a body to beat with. Sadly, not a warrior.
Wolf-Skull Shaman - with the amount of elves this deck runs, he can produce a Wolf around 2/3 of the time (or more). However, the wolves can't be pumped up, so he might not be worth it unless you run...
Wren's Run Packmaster - I don't think this guy gets the love he deserves. He has a big body, can use the mana you aren't using for other things, and basically says gg to Zoo if you have mana open (as you now have deathtouchy wolves to block their huge Tarmagoyfs and Knight of the Reliquarys). It also has great synergy with the two cards above - obviously Shaman makes wolves for you, and Visionary's a great champion target.
Bloodbraid Elf - she is insane, but you already knew that. She's so powerful that I am considering splashing red just for her (and Blood Moon coming out of the SB).
Tezzeret's Gambit - as was stated by KainXavier, proliferation would be really nice with all our +1/+1 counters, and it draws us into more action. Seems a little expensive, but since we're not running shock or fetch lands, we can probably afford the life loss.
I am just starting to test this now. I am seeing a lot of Tempered Steel Decks running around. Might just be me but I have found we are susceptible round one and that the things we board in for games 2 or 3 do not adequately address what could be a format staple. Is anyone else seeing this also? Is it worth having a few Creeping Corrosion in the SB?
I feel visionairy is too weak. If it was a warrior, it might be worthwhile, but probably still too weak. I was wondering what might be good vs Jund... looks like Baloth is the answer.
I've been working on a GSZ sb package, and heres what I'm thinking:
With the number of lords we have, elvish visionary is rarely a 1/1. I think she is easily comparable to silvergill adept the way we use her. I do think wolfskull shaman is too great of a card to not be tested. We need to generate as much card advantage as we can.
With the number of lords we have, elvish visionary is rarely a 1/1. I think she is easily comparable to silvergill adept the way we use her. I do think wolfskull shaman is too great of a card to not be tested. We need to generate as much card advantage as we can.
Except, we have no vials, and not as many lords. Plus we don't really NEED the CA, unlike Merfolk which uses FoW. I think we can have 2 2-drops, Bramblewood is obviously one. I'll try out wolfskull as the 2nd. But why do we need CA?
Edit: What is the theoretical line of play you guys look for? In my mind it's T1 ramp, T2 ETBT land+dude (hopefully bramble), T3 Lord or Joraga kicked
Except, we have no vials, and not as many lords. Plus we don't really NEED the CA, unlike Merfolk which uses FoW. I think we can have 2 2-drops, Bramblewood is obviously one. I'll try out wolfskull as the 2nd. But why do we need CA?
Edit: What is the theoretical line of play you guys look for? In my mind it's T1 ramp, T2 ETBT land+dude (hopefully bramble), T3 Lord or Joraga kicked
That's pretty good. I find that also, a T2 Archdruid is a very strong play - either they kill it or you can have an insane T3.
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I just got rofl-stomped by Living End combo and realized we have no answer to combo decks in our SB. Since we typically can't win before turn 4 or 5, when they usually go off, I think we need an answer. Decks like Dramatic Entrance aren't as much of a problem, since we can beat them after they combo off or put in a big guy, but any of the combo decks that win instantly (Dragonstorm, Splinter Twin) or clear our board (Living End), we need a solution to.
^^See my post about a GSZ toolbox on the sb. Teeg kinda owns combo. It doesn't stop Living's End, but CotV @ 0 does. Also, any gy hate does too...
Edit: @Csoda: You really want to play Triad. That card is just insane. I would also bump up to 4 Warcallers. I don't like Heritage and Nettle in this deck... They are kinda meh.
The decks that dissed me off are Burn and Junk, they both have the spot removal to just kill our dudes
I just got rofl-stomped by Living End combo and realized we have no answer to combo decks in our SB. Since we typically can't win before turn 4 or 5, when they usually go off, I think we need an answer. Decks like Dramatic Entrance aren't as much of a problem, since we can beat them after they combo off or put in a big guy, but any of the combo decks that win instantly (Dragonstorm, Splinter Twin) or clear our board (Living End), we need a solution to.
Ok, I'll agree I had very few valid points in that post. Having said that, would you play Visionary? Yes, CA wins games. But being CA doesn't make a card good. Do you want to play Visionary, Wren's Run, or Wolf-Skull? You can only play one, and I can almost promise you the first is the worst choice.
Ok, I'll agree I had very few valid points in that post. Having said that, would you play Visionary? Yes, CA wins games. But being CA doesn't make a card good. Do you want to play Visionary, Wren's Run, or Wolf-Skull? You can only play one, and I can almost promise you the first is the worst choice.
Out of those 3, wolfskull shaman. If I had to pick out what card between elvish visionary and wren's run vanquisher, the choice isn't as easy. If you look at both cards in a vaccuum, the vanquisher is a lot better. But we dont play in a vacuum. Being as we want a t1 mana dork, for a 3cc spell t2, it means vanquisher won't be cast till t3 and won't swing till t4. So he really isn't there for early game pressure. We play swarm tactics, we want to get as many bodies out as fast as possible. I cast the visionary t3, and draw a lord. I'm going to net more dmg on t4 than I would have if I had played a vanquisher.
The best thing that vanquisher has over visionary is death touch. It has some good aplications, especially with trample. But it is a terrible top deck to draw post wrath, it gives hand information away, and if it eats a removal spell you are back where you started. Visionary is a 2 for 1, it can get you another threat or mana fix. And because of that I would pick it over the vanquisher.
I hope my logic here is understandable, if not agreeable.
I've heavily playtested Visionary and it's just not good. I am perfectly happy to cast Wren's Run turn 2, along with a dork or a Vastwood. I want to have power on the table early, especially since Zoo is so big. If he eats a bolt, so what? That's one more lord you get to stick. Visionary doesnt do that. He draws you a card and watches others fight it out. The same logic applies vs Rock and Junk.
I've also noticed Lys Alana Huntmaster is underperforming at 4 cmc. It's a 4-drop elf warrior that doesn't really do anything right away; it generates its first elf warrior token on its next turn, so it's generally an inferior Imperious Perfect. Elvish Promenade would have more impact (generally drops 3+ elf warrior tokens immediately)... but I'd be better off with more Hunting Triads or some Wren's Run Vanquishers at 2 cmc.
you are eventually going to stall without some extra draw... if you dont like visionary... how about harmonize
also...why no heritage druid + nettle sentinel sentinel is also a warrior.
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There are only 2 seasons each year... summer and hockey, and summer lasts too long.
you are eventually going to stall without some extra draw... if you dont like visionary... how about harmonize
also...why no heritage druid + nettle sentinel sentinel is also a warrior.
I think that if you go for the Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel combo, you should probably run Visionary and maybe something else to refill your hand. I know! How about splashing blue for Coiling Oracle? That way, we can also run Intruder Alarm and Cloudstone Curio and potentially go infinite!
Wait, there's already a thread for that. It's called Combo Elves.
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I think that if you go for the Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel combo, you should probably run Visionary and maybe something else to refill your hand. I know! How about splashing blue for Coiling Oracle? That way, we can also run Intruder Alarm and Cloudstone Curio and potentially go infinite!
Wait, there's already a thread for that. It's called Combo Elves.
Tap tap... i think my sarcasm meter is broken.
Druid + Sentinel does not make this into a combo deck.
I ran G/W beatdown elves in old extended using basically your list, but druid + sentinel ... I also ran it with devoted druid for all elves get +inf/+inf combo with Ezuri... These both make beatdown elves much better.
Druid + Sentinel does not make this into a combo deck.
I ran G/W beatdown elves in old extended using basically your list, but druid + sentinel ... I also ran it with devoted druid for all elves get +inf/+inf combo with Ezuri... These both make beatdown elves much better.
I agree with this. Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel is completely ridiculous, and can allow us to barf out our hand as early as turn 2. I've done done this with my list (earlier in the thread) several times. This engine should be in this deck just for the explosive plays it can create.
My thoughts.
Also, I have registered my deck for the upcoming MTGS modern tournament. Wish me luck
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Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
I've heavily playtested Visionary and it's just not good. I am perfectly happy to cast Wren's Run turn 2, along with a dork or a Vastwood. I want to have power on the table early, especially since Zoo is so big. If he eats a bolt, so what? That's one more lord you get to stick. Visionary doesnt do that. He draws you a card and watches others fight it out. The same logic applies vs Rock and Junk.
In my play testing, the visionary is usually big enough to not be watching from the sidelines. Zoo is actually a matchup that I believe visionary is better suited for, since she helps us stabilize. And I think that is why our legacy counterparts also chose visionary over vanquisher.
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I think that if you go for the Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel combo, you should probably run Visionary and maybe something else to refill your hand. I know! How about splashing blue for Coiling Oracle? That way, we can also run Intruder Alarm and Cloudstone Curio and potentially go infinite!
Wait, there's already a thread for that. It's called Combo Elves.
I dont know if we should immediately dismiss the heritage/nettle engine. It's not the plan I imagine going, but there may still be value in it's discussion in a non-infinite application.
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you are eventually going to stall without some extra draw... if you dont like visionary... how about harmonize
I already gave my reasons for not running Elvish Visionary (doesn't do enough), but your point is well taken. I'm already running Lead the Stampede (increased from 3x to 4x), which I find better that Harmonize in a creature-heavy deck (e.g. it doesn't draw me useless lands in the mid-late game). Instead, I've been considering Regal Force and/or Primordial Sage - perhaps in place of the Wren's Run Vanquishers that I'm not in love with. They can refill my hand later in the game, if it lasts that long. I also added another Genesis Wave (now 3x), as resolving one tends to win the game.
I have a legacy combo elf deck that runs those (with Glimpse of Nature, which is banned in modern). It does what it does very well - that is, it overwhelms an opponent through shear number of green weenies. That style of elf deck might prove superior in modern as well. But that's not what this deck is about.
This deck is more of a fatty beat-down deck. I'm not necessarily trying to get my entire library on the battlefield and win through shear numbers; this deck's goal is "quality over quantity" by pumping up (a relatively small number of) elves to 5/5 or bigger before my opponent has a chance to muster a defense against them. I certainly don't want to cut "lords" for a mana combo with this deck.
iNano... I really like your list. I may try putting that together. Have you tried the matchup vs 12post? Is it mostly a race to put them down before they get unstoppable?
I already gave my reasons for not running Elvish Visionary (doesn't do enough), but your point is well taken. I'm already running Lead the Stampede (increased from 3x to 4x), which I find better that Harmonize in a creature-heavy deck (e.g. it doesn't draw me useless lands in the mid-late game). Instead, I've been considering Regal Force and/or Primordial Sage - perhaps in place of the Wren's Run Vanquishers that I'm not in love with. They can refill my hand later in the game, if it lasts that long. I also added another Genesis Wave (now 3x), as resolving one tends to win the game.
I have a legacy combo elf deck that runs those (with Glimpse of Nature, which is banned in modern). It does what it does very well - that is, it overwhelms an opponent through shear number of green weenies. That style of elf deck might prove superior in modern as well. But that's not what this deck is about.
This deck is more of a fatty beat-down deck. I'm not necessarily trying to get my entire library on the battlefield and win through shear numbers; this deck's goal is "quality over quantity" by pumping up (a relatively small number of) elves to 5/5 or bigger before my opponent has a chance to muster a defense against them. I certainly don't want to cut "lords" for a mana combo with this deck.
I think we really need to fit Mutavault in the deck somehow. With all the control decks packing sweepers, the Mutavault is just too valuable in tribal to ignore. Also, as you're only playing 28 creatures, I think the value of the Primoridal Sage drops considerably, especially considering it's casting cost. I think it would be better to play another Ezuri or Champion. Since you're not playing Spellskites, Ezuri has no protection in the deck, so I think it's necessary to play multiples.
I think I'd drop Genesis Wave for more creatures. You're only playing 13 Elf Warriors in your deck (you will very rarely tap the Perfect to create more elves unless you're playing something like Eldrazi Monument), which seems to really minimize the benefit of the Paragon. At that point, it seems like you might as well forget the warrior aggro strategy and just pick the best swarm aggro cards you can. Not sure if Wren's Run Vanquisher is the answer, but it does make some sense in there if you want to stick with warriors.
Fresh Meat failed miserably in standard to be the Elves go-to response to sweepers, and instead we have to rely on Vengevine, Ezuri (who will die, but hopefully save others depending on sweeper), and toolbox options like Wurmcoil Engine, and Eldrazi Monument. Nissa Revane and Nissa's Chosen (or Garruk 1) are also invaluable against sweepers and some removal. Spellskites are good to protect Ezuri and any of our main pieces. And, in Modern we have Dauntless Escort, which is a good GSZ tutorable card to have in the SB.
At the end of the day, I'm still not sure whether any of the warrior-aggro decks that have been posted are better than the Vengevine/Fauna Shaman Standard decks for the meta, with some tweaks to that deck to include the additional lords (Perfect and Champion).
iNano... I really like your list. I may try putting that together. Have you tried the matchup vs 12post? Is it mostly a race to put them down before they get unstoppable?
Inano78, are you having any trouble running 6 citpt lands?
I've barely begun testing it. Please join me and tell me how it runs for you.
So far, the citpt lands haven't bothered me (a decent starting hand has 1 forest, 1 mana dork or GSZ, and 1 of the "+1/+1" lands). The reason I'm still using Llanowar Reborn is that it pumps Joraga Warcallerand actually gets tapped for mana... whereas I usually avoid tapping Oran-Rief, the Vastwood for mana.
I think we really need to fit Mutavault in the deck somehow. With all the control decks packing sweepers, the Mutavault is just too valuable in tribal to ignore. Also, as you're only playing 28 creatures, I think the value of the Primoridal Sage drops considerably, especially considering it's casting cost. I think it would be better to play another Ezuri or Champion. Since you're not playing Spellskites, Ezuri has no protection in the deck, so I think it's necessary to play multiples.
I think I'd drop Genesis Wave for more creatures. You're only playing 13 Elf Warriors in your deck (you will very rarely tap the Perfect to create more elves unless you're playing something like Eldrazi Monument), which seems to really minimize the benefit of the Paragon. At that point, it seems like you might as well forget the warrior aggro strategy and just pick the best swarm aggro cards you can. Not sure if Wren's Run Vanquisher is the answer, but it does make some sense in there.
Fresh Meat failed miserably in standard to be the Elves go-to response to sweepers, and instead we have to rely on Vengevine, Ezuri (who will die, but hopefully save others depending on sweeper), and toolbox options like Wurmcoil Engine, and Eldrazi Monument. Nissa Revane and Nissa's Chosen are also invaluable against sweepers and most removal. Spellskites are good to protect Ezuri and any of our main pieces. And, in Modern we have Dauntless Escort, which is a good GSZ tutorable card to have in the SB.
At the end of the day, I'm still not sure whether any of the warrior-aggro decks that have been posted are better than the Vengevine/Fauna Shaman Standard decks for the meta, with some tweaks to that deck to include the additional lords (Perfect and Champion).
Several good points here. Let me continue to test and digest this. I haven't played against a lot of decks packing sweepers yet. From what you said, it sounds like Eldrazi Monument might be the best way to go, especially if I can ramp into it before sweepers come out. Or go back to the Nissa Revane / Nissa's Chosen package.
Lead the Stampede is great, but I don't think it's super important to play more than 2 or 3. Against aggro, that mana should be spent on stabilizing. LtS is at its most effective refilling our hand after a sweeper and winning topdeck wars in the late game, and while that is an important part of our deck, it's not necessary, especially since control isn't big in this format.
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4 Arbor Elf
4 Llanowar Elves
Lords - 15
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Joraga Warcaller
2 Elvish Champion
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3 Imperious Perfect
Other Warriors - 8
4 Bramblewood Paragon
4 Wren’s Run Vanquisher
4 Hunting Triad
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Lead the Stampede
Land - 18
10 Forest
4 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Leyline of Vitality
2 Elvish Champion
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Krosan Grip
2 Gaea’s Herald
3 Obstinate Baloth
Explaining some thoughts and card choices:
Wren's Run Vanquisher - she hasn't actually been that impressive. She's a 3/3 warrior for 2, but that's about it. Zoo and other green decks can play a much better card at that slot - Tarmogoyf - which, incidentally, is about the only thing the deathtouch really matters for. As well, she gives the opponent some info about your hand, which isn't really bad but a bit annoying. Also, if you happen to not have an elf in your hand...
Ghost Quarter Mainboard - I feel like 12-post is a big enough problem that we need Quarters in the main to combat it. They ramp about as quickly as we do (if we get an Archdruid - if not, faster), and their high-end spells are more impressive. The life they gain from Glimmerpost also hurts us. It sucks to run 7 lands that don't enable a turn 1 dork, but I think it's necessary. Perhaps it would be better to run fewer Oran-Riefs, or move 1 Quarter to the SB.
Sideboard:
Leyline of Vitality - this card is NUTS vs Zoo, and protects our lords from Punishing Fire and Grim Lavamancer. I've considered switching this for Essence Warden, which gains us more life, but it's slower, removed more easily, and doesn't protect our lords.
Bring in vs: Any aggro deck or any deck running Punishing Grove or Grim Lavamancer
Elvish Champion - first off, as you could guess by my screen name, this is my favorite MTG card and the card that brought me into the game. It's insane vs Zoo and other decks running green.
Bring in vs: Decks running forests
Ghost Quarter - the fourth copy. Invaluable vs Land-based (excluding Loam-based) strategies.
Bring in vs: 12-post, Tron, other decks with land-based strategies
Krosan Grip - uncounterable removal for artifacts and enchantments that need to be killed. Examples - Ghostly Prison (MWC), Swords (not as big since Stoneforge Mystic was bad but still a problem), Aether Vial (Goblins, Merfolk, and other decks), Tempered Steel or Cranial Plating (Affinity).
Bring in vs: Decks with problem artifacts/enchants
Gaea's Herald - control decks like to counter our lords. Use this guy to stop that jank.
Bring in vs: Decks running counterspells
Obstinate Baloth - while not an elf, this guy is too invaluable against aggro as well as decks running Blightning (Jund, Cruel Control). As well, Megrim discard strategies (don't laugh, I've seen a few) hate this guy. He's great vs all aggro, but especially Zoo, because he's out of Bolt/Helix range and can profitably block Wild Nacatl and all their 2/3s.
Bring in vs: Aggro decks, decks that run Blightning-style discard.
Other possibilities:
Elvish Visionary - replaces itself, and provides a body to beat with. Sadly, not a warrior.
Wolf-Skull Shaman - with the amount of elves this deck runs, he can produce a Wolf around 2/3 of the time (or more). However, the wolves can't be pumped up, so he might not be worth it unless you run...
Wren's Run Packmaster - I don't think this guy gets the love he deserves. He has a big body, can use the mana you aren't using for other things, and basically says gg to Zoo if you have mana open (as you now have deathtouchy wolves to block their huge Tarmagoyfs and Knight of the Reliquarys). It also has great synergy with the two cards above - obviously Shaman makes wolves for you, and Visionary's a great champion target.
Bloodbraid Elf - she is insane, but you already knew that. She's so powerful that I am considering splashing red just for her (and Blood Moon coming out of the SB).
Tezzeret's Gambit - as was stated by KainXavier, proliferation would be really nice with all our +1/+1 counters, and it draws us into more action. Seems a little expensive, but since we're not running shock or fetch lands, we can probably afford the life loss.
Thanks to SushiOtter at Hakai Studios for the sig. Check them out!
Standard:
GGGRDungrove Wolf RunGGGR
Modern:
URExarchMite KikiTwinUR
EDH:
GGGOmnathGGG
WWWDarienWWW
GGGEzuriGGG
WGBGhave, Guru of SporesBGW
EDH (WIP)
WURBGSliver OverlordGBRUW
RUJhoiraUR
I've been working on a GSZ sb package, and heres what I'm thinking:
1 Viridian Zealot (Affinity, Stacks)
1 Gaddock Teeg (Control)
1 Gaea's Herald (Control)
Maybes:
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
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W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Except, we have no vials, and not as many lords. Plus we don't really NEED the CA, unlike Merfolk which uses FoW. I think we can have 2 2-drops, Bramblewood is obviously one. I'll try out wolfskull as the 2nd. But why do we need CA?
Edit: What is the theoretical line of play you guys look for? In my mind it's T1 ramp, T2 ETBT land+dude (hopefully bramble), T3 Lord or Joraga kicked
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
That's pretty good. I find that also, a T2 Archdruid is a very strong play - either they kill it or you can have an insane T3.
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Standard:
GGGRDungrove Wolf RunGGGR
Modern:
URExarchMite KikiTwinUR
EDH:
GGGOmnathGGG
WWWDarienWWW
GGGEzuriGGG
12 Forest
2 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
2 Mutavault
2 Dryad Arbor
Creatures:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Bramblewood Paragon
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
3 Joraga Warcaller
3 Imperious Perfect
3 Nettle Sentinal
2 Chameleon Colossus
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2 Elvish Champion
1 Gaea's Herald
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Lead the Stampede
Sales Thread
Options:
Deciever Exarch/Splinter Twin - Krosan Grip answers this nicely, but I only run 3 in the board. The only options are to run more permanent control or splash white for Gaddock Teeg.
Dragonstorm - the only thing I can think of is a splash of white for Rule of Law (which hurts us as well) or Gaddock Teeg.
Living End - again, all I can think of is a white splash for Rule of Law.
Anyone else have solutions?
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Standard:
GGGRDungrove Wolf RunGGGR
Modern:
URExarchMite KikiTwinUR
EDH:
GGGOmnathGGG
WWWDarienWWW
GGGEzuriGGG
Edit: @Csoda: You really want to play Triad. That card is just insane. I would also bump up to 4 Warcallers. I don't like Heritage and Nettle in this deck... They are kinda meh.
The decks that dissed me off are Burn and Junk, they both have the spot removal to just kill our dudes
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
legacy fish runs- 4x Coralhelm Commander, 4x Lord of Atlantis, and 4x Merrow Reejerey for a total of 12 lords. Between Elvish archdruid, imperious perfect, joraga war caller, elvish champion, and the pseudo lord ezuri, renigade leader we should have more lords than legacy fish.
we need ca because "card advantage wins games".
This exactly. And with Llanowar elves, arbor elf and green sun's zenith+dryad arborwe should always have that t1 mana dork.
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Thorn of Amethyst, chalice of the void may be good sb cards
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Out of those 3, wolfskull shaman. If I had to pick out what card between elvish visionary and wren's run vanquisher, the choice isn't as easy. If you look at both cards in a vaccuum, the vanquisher is a lot better. But we dont play in a vacuum. Being as we want a t1 mana dork, for a 3cc spell t2, it means vanquisher won't be cast till t3 and won't swing till t4. So he really isn't there for early game pressure. We play swarm tactics, we want to get as many bodies out as fast as possible. I cast the visionary t3, and draw a lord. I'm going to net more dmg on t4 than I would have if I had played a vanquisher.
The best thing that vanquisher has over visionary is death touch. It has some good aplications, especially with trample. But it is a terrible top deck to draw post wrath, it gives hand information away, and if it eats a removal spell you are back where you started. Visionary is a 2 for 1, it can get you another threat or mana fix. And because of that I would pick it over the vanquisher.
I hope my logic here is understandable, if not agreeable.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
you are eventually going to stall without some extra draw... if you dont like visionary... how about harmonize
also...why no heritage druid + nettle sentinel sentinel is also a warrior.
I think that if you go for the Heritage Druid/Nettle Sentinel combo, you should probably run Visionary and maybe something else to refill your hand. I know! How about splashing blue for Coiling Oracle? That way, we can also run Intruder Alarm and Cloudstone Curio and potentially go infinite!
Wait, there's already a thread for that. It's called Combo Elves.
Thanks to SushiOtter at Hakai Studios for the sig. Check them out!
Standard:
GGGRDungrove Wolf RunGGGR
Modern:
URExarchMite KikiTwinUR
EDH:
GGGOmnathGGG
WWWDarienWWW
GGGEzuriGGG
Tap tap... i think my sarcasm meter is broken.
Druid + Sentinel does not make this into a combo deck.
I ran G/W beatdown elves in old extended using basically your list, but druid + sentinel ... I also ran it with devoted druid for all elves get +inf/+inf combo with Ezuri... These both make beatdown elves much better.
The white splash was excellent...you have path available, oring if necessary, ranger of eos, dauntless escort, quasali pridemage, and wilt leaf liege (anti discard)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=6590728&postcount=156
this list is a great place to start, I won several tournaments with this list in old extended.
I agree with this. Heritage Druid + Nettle Sentinel is completely ridiculous, and can allow us to barf out our hand as early as turn 2. I've done done this with my list (earlier in the thread) several times. This engine should be in this deck just for the explosive plays it can create.
My thoughts.
Also, I have registered my deck for the upcoming MTGS modern tournament. Wish me luck
Take a mechanic from the pre-mirrodin era, and a mechanic after the mirrodin era, and create a card that flavorfully melds both mechanics.
In my play testing, the visionary is usually big enough to not be watching from the sidelines. Zoo is actually a matchup that I believe visionary is better suited for, since she helps us stabilize. And I think that is why our legacy counterparts also chose visionary over vanquisher.
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Lead the stampede is the best card draw we have since we didn't get sylvan messenger, but saying elvish visionary is a combo card is like saying silvergill adept is a combo card. We run enough lords that everything we play is a beatstick.
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I dont know if we should immediately dismiss the heritage/nettle engine. It's not the plan I imagine going, but there may still be value in it's discussion in a non-infinite application.
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This is what I am testing out for now
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Joraga Warcaller
4 Elvish Archrdruid
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Wolfskull Shaman
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Ghost Quarter
14 Forest
I already gave my reasons for not running Elvish Visionary (doesn't do enough), but your point is well taken. I'm already running Lead the Stampede (increased from 3x to 4x), which I find better that Harmonize in a creature-heavy deck (e.g. it doesn't draw me useless lands in the mid-late game). Instead, I've been considering Regal Force and/or Primordial Sage - perhaps in place of the Wren's Run Vanquishers that I'm not in love with. They can refill my hand later in the game, if it lasts that long. I also added another Genesis Wave (now 3x), as resolving one tends to win the game.
I have a legacy combo elf deck that runs those (with Glimpse of Nature, which is banned in modern). It does what it does very well - that is, it overwhelms an opponent through shear number of green weenies. That style of elf deck might prove superior in modern as well. But that's not what this deck is about.
This deck is more of a fatty beat-down deck. I'm not necessarily trying to get my entire library on the battlefield and win through shear numbers; this deck's goal is "quality over quantity" by pumping up (a relatively small number of) elves to 5/5 or bigger before my opponent has a chance to muster a defense against them. I certainly don't want to cut "lords" for a mana combo with this deck.
Current list:
4x Arbor Elf
4x Bramblewood Paragon
4x Elvish Archdruid
1x Elvish Champion
1x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4x Imperious Perfect
4x Joraga Warcaller
4x Llanowar Elves
1x Primordial Sage
1x Regal Force
1x Dryad Arbor
11x Forest
2x Llanowar Reborn
4x Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
Sorceries (14)
3x Genesis Wave
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Hunting Triad
4x Lead the Stampede
4x Viridian Zealot (artifact/enchantment hate)
3x Thornweald Archer (flying hate)
3x Jagged-Scar Archers (flying hate)
2x Fresh Meat (or similar wrath recovery)
3x Elvish Champion (vs green decks)
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
Vorel of the Hull Clade
Reki, the History of Kamigawa (MTGO)
Lavinia of the Tenth (MTGO)
I think we really need to fit Mutavault in the deck somehow. With all the control decks packing sweepers, the Mutavault is just too valuable in tribal to ignore. Also, as you're only playing 28 creatures, I think the value of the Primoridal Sage drops considerably, especially considering it's casting cost. I think it would be better to play another Ezuri or Champion. Since you're not playing Spellskites, Ezuri has no protection in the deck, so I think it's necessary to play multiples.
I think I'd drop Genesis Wave for more creatures. You're only playing 13 Elf Warriors in your deck (you will very rarely tap the Perfect to create more elves unless you're playing something like Eldrazi Monument), which seems to really minimize the benefit of the Paragon. At that point, it seems like you might as well forget the warrior aggro strategy and just pick the best swarm aggro cards you can. Not sure if Wren's Run Vanquisher is the answer, but it does make some sense in there if you want to stick with warriors.
Fresh Meat failed miserably in standard to be the Elves go-to response to sweepers, and instead we have to rely on Vengevine, Ezuri (who will die, but hopefully save others depending on sweeper), and toolbox options like Wurmcoil Engine, and Eldrazi Monument. Nissa Revane and Nissa's Chosen (or Garruk 1) are also invaluable against sweepers and some removal. Spellskites are good to protect Ezuri and any of our main pieces. And, in Modern we have Dauntless Escort, which is a good GSZ tutorable card to have in the SB.
At the end of the day, I'm still not sure whether any of the warrior-aggro decks that have been posted are better than the Vengevine/Fauna Shaman Standard decks for the meta, with some tweaks to that deck to include the additional lords (Perfect and Champion).
I've barely begun testing it. Please join me and tell me how it runs for you.
So far, the citpt lands haven't bothered me (a decent starting hand has 1 forest, 1 mana dork or GSZ, and 1 of the "+1/+1" lands). The reason I'm still using Llanowar Reborn is that it pumps Joraga Warcaller and actually gets tapped for mana... whereas I usually avoid tapping Oran-Rief, the Vastwood for mana.
Several good points here. Let me continue to test and digest this. I haven't played against a lot of decks packing sweepers yet. From what you said, it sounds like Eldrazi Monument might be the best way to go, especially if I can ramp into it before sweepers come out. Or go back to the Nissa Revane / Nissa's Chosen package.
G Pumped Elvish Warriors G
GW Infectious Slivers WG
WU Milling Allies UW
Legacy:
UB Hex-Depths BU (combo-control)
G NO/Aggro Elves G
Commander:
WUBRG Sliver Army GRBUW (multiplayer)
WUG Rafiq the Exalted GUW (1-on-1 voltron)
GU Edric's Circus UG (multiplayer tokens)
B Relentless Rats B (multiplayer combo)
UB Sygg, the Punisher (in progress)BU
UBR Nicol Bolas, Elder Dragon Highlander RBU (in progress)
Thus for me the choice is to use Lead the Stampede, and not to use the other good, but not quite as good Genesis Wave, Green Sun's Zenith, Summoning Pact, Elvish Promenade, Hunting Triad, etc.
I would then combine Lead the Stampede with creature cards that give card advantage. For instance Regal Force, Elvish Visionary, Imperious Perfect, Wolf-Skull Shaman.
I might even include a Eternal Witness or two as a 5th/6th Lead the Stampede
Lead the Stampede is great, but I don't think it's super important to play more than 2 or 3. Against aggro, that mana should be spent on stabilizing. LtS is at its most effective refilling our hand after a sweeper and winning topdeck wars in the late game, and while that is an important part of our deck, it's not necessary, especially since control isn't big in this format.
Thanks to SushiOtter at Hakai Studios for the sig. Check them out!
Standard:
GGGRDungrove Wolf RunGGGR
Modern:
URExarchMite KikiTwinUR
EDH:
GGGOmnathGGG
WWWDarienWWW
GGGEzuriGGG