For those whom are not familiar with this archtype I will refer you to JVL's article from 2009
It's basically a combo deck that wants to sets up to kill you the loop of Second Sunrise, Conjuror's Bauble, Pyrite Spellbomb and Lotus Bloom when you have no cards left in your library.
Ghost Quarter is mostly used on your own lands to not only fix mana, but to generate mana with each second sunrise. You typically need at least 4 cantrips and 2 mana sources (i.e. any combination of Ghost Quarter, Lotus Bloom, Fetchland) to combo off but that will change based on your hand and the situation.
The biggest problem with this deck it is susceptible to most forms of hate. Kataki, Ethersworn Cannonist, Mindbreak Trap, various forms of GY hate (tormod's crypt is the most annoying as they can return it with second sunrise if they blow it on the same turn), Aven Mindsenser, and you have very few ways to interact with your opponent.
For those of you who are still reading here are your advantages. This is the most consistant combo deck in the format can almost reliably beat anything game 1 as the most hate will come in the form of discard which this deck is very good against. You also go off regularly on turn 4-5 and occasionally on 3 and almost no one atm is packing much GY hate as they assume most gy based decks are gone. This means that we can narrow down our sideboard cards to things like Silence, Leyline of Sanctity, Echoing Truth, Pithing Needle, and other cards.
This deck has a hard time sideboarding as it is very reliant on its draws once it is comboing out so you need to make sure that you don't side in more than like 5 cards in any given matchup or you will just have too high a risk of fizzling.
Thought Scour is terrible in BV. How many flashback spells are being run? Say roughly 15. This gives you a roughly 38% chance of milling one flashback spell. And even if you do, you paid one mana to cantrip and dump an overcosted spell. Alchemy, Geistflame, Devil's play, etc. all cost much more to flash back than your average card, so you're not getting full value out of it.
You'd much rather play Ponder. At least that generates a tangible advantage.
There's no reason not to run 2-3 mox opals in this deck especially when you have an excellent sac outlet in reshape. Bitter Ordeal also makes a good alternate win condition along the lines of brain freeze (perhaps better since it still does something if you can't quite combo off).
I've messed around with it a bit. The biggest problem I had was getting the first Second Sunrise in my hand. The only viable tutors I could think of to find it were Transmute cards and Spoils of the Vault. Cantrips help, but it's still awkward.
Disciple of the Vault seems nuts here as a backup wincon; even if you don't have the Sunrise engine going he can ping the opponent for a TON. A UB manabase shouldn't be too difficult - 4 duals and a bunch of basics.
You really don't want to exile your only Pyrite Spellbomb, do you?
QDI
I played 2 Pyrites to lessen that chance. I still kept on killing myself with it regardless, but what can you do.
Disciple is more or less useless. There is no point in using it over a spellbomb as a kill condition. They at least can help while you combo. I suppose I could see it being used over Grapeshot, but there really isn't a point to use either (unless you really want a third win condition). If you do use it, though, you don't need to adjust the mana base. Once you get to 0 cards left in your library you can generate infinite mana of any color, play the Disciple, then sac and return artifacts until they die.
The deck punts to anything with counterspells, instant speed artifact removal, or graveyard hate. It also relies very heavily on drawing 2 specific cards, which may not come together until turn 5 or 6, when it's too late anyway.
Gigadrowse them on the end of their turn to tap 2 of their lands. This basically burns a counter spell by either denying them mana for one or forcing them to use it on your Gigadrowse; either way it's good.
Then they should only have 3-4 mana open and at most 2 more counter spells available (no FoWs and stuff in this format). Burn one with Silence and counter the other, or counter both.
obviously you can't go off on turn 3 since you need to draw into protection. but a control deck won't put a fast clock on you so you have time.
Oh and WTF is the noxious revival loop that dude is talking about? You just chain those two spells and pray your opponent doesn't counter either of them? Meh, ditch the sunbeam.
Thought Scour is terrible in BV. How many flashback spells are being run? Say roughly 15. This gives you a roughly 38% chance of milling one flashback spell. And even if you do, you paid one mana to cantrip and dump an overcosted spell. Alchemy, Geistflame, Devil's play, etc. all cost much more to flash back than your average card, so you're not getting full value out of it.
You'd much rather play Ponder. At least that generates a tangible advantage.
Can't imagine this deck could be that great without the actual eggs and tendrils. It's a concept that I tinkered around with in casual, and it was pretty effective at the time.
spoils is used once you set up the combo. you thin your deck and than name a card you dont have to mill the deck away. idiots
Have you ever even played the deck? Spoils is used to find the piece you are missing, which is almost invariably the first Sunrise because there is no (good) way to tutor for it. Taking out cards from the top is completely unimportant unless it manages to take out all of your wins. The lifeloss isn't irrelevant either. Fast decks can get you down to a life total where Spoils is very likely to straight up kill you. After the first Sunrise, all of the Revivals (and Reclaims) become live, and Spoils is rarely needed to continue.
Have you ever even played the deck? Spoils is used to find the piece you are missing, which is almost invariably the first Sunrise because there is no (good) way to tutor for it. Taking out cards from the top is completely unimportant unless it manages to take out all of your wins. The lifeloss isn't irrelevant either. Fast decks can get you down to a life total where Spoils is very likely to straight up kill you. After the first Sunrise, all of the Revivals (and Reclaims) become live, and Spoils is rarely needed to continue.
yes i t32 a ptq with this. it was the ptq to sanjuan.
After much thought and playtesting (and yes I know this thread has sort of been abandoned). I have come uP with a few things.
1. spoils of the vault is dumb
It is just bad, really, really bad. Some times you will mIll through vital cards like your win con. And to the comment above saying you can use it to mill your deck can be good for you. How?, it is at best just a win more card and that we dont need. Unlike other decks we have no lifegain so most of the time you will die.
2. Win con
At the start, I thought: hey, that pyrite Spellbomb is awsome. It is. However is it the best? No, Grapeshot is better. Why? You need 2 Lotus Bloom to win. Sometimes you dont have that. When going off (While you don´t 2 lotus) then you have to survive for 3 turns waiting for them to go off suspend. Grape shot is faster, more reliable and easier to use.
3. Sideboard
4 pact of negation
There are a lot of Pacts in this one, why not. Free, protect your combo. This comes in against control.
3 Slaughter pact or eather spellbomb or vendeta or Dismember Gadock teg is the most anoying creature for this deck(no more reshape) The second is magnus of the moon (for ghoSt quater reasons). We cant win with them on the BF. We dont like that.
4 nature's claim
Kills the very unfortunate leylaine of the void, and all the graveyard hate artifacts.
1 Sunbeam spellbomb
This card is used if your oponent has shroud or hexproof for some reason. Some have it in the main, i dont. Next one.
1 emrakul, The aeons torn
This is great against players who force you use your entire combo. Get infinite mana and cast him. Just to double the humiliation.
2 golden glowmoth or gigadrowse
We need Life against aggro, and this gives us plenty. We need tapping against 12post
4. Dice for mana
Since the mana we use is kinda hard to keep track of. I use color coded dice.
After much thought and playtesting (and yes I know this thread has sort of been abandoned). I have come uP with a few things.
1. spoils of the vault is dumb
It is just bad, really, really bad. Some times you will mIll through vital cards like your win con. And to the comment above saying you can use it to mill your deck can be good for you. How?, it is at best just a win more card and that we dont need. Unlike other decks we have no lifegain so most of the time you will die.
2. Win con
At the start, I thought: hey, that pyrite Spellbomb is awsome. It is. However is it the best? No, Grapeshot is better. Why? You need 2 Lotus Bloom to win. Sometimes you dont have that. When going off (While you don´t 2 lotus) then you have to survive for 3 turns waiting for them to go off suspend. Grape shot is faster, more reliable and easier to use.
3. Sideboard
4 pact of negation
There are a lot of Pacts in this one, why not. Free, protect your combo. This comes in against control.
3 Slaughter pact or eather spellbomb or vendeta or Dismember Gadock teg is the most anoying creature for this deck(no more reshape) The second is magnus of the moon (for ghoSt quater reasons). We cant win with them on the BF. We dont like that.
4 nature's claim
Kills the very unfortunate leylaine of the void, and all the graveyard hate artifacts.
1 Sunbeam spellbomb
This card is used if your oponent has shroud or hexproof for some reason. Some have it in the main, i dont. Next one.
1 emrakul, The aeons torn
This is great against players who force you use your entire combo. Get infinite mana and cast him. Just to double the humiliation.
2 golden glowmoth or gigadrowse
We need Life against aggro, and this gives us plenty. We need tapping against 12post
4. Dice for mana
Since the mana we use is kinda hard to keep track of. I use color coded dice.
How are you finding your list? I'm thinking of making this deck since it is pretty budget and at the same time hilarious (at least, for the pilot of the deck xD).
I tested this list online without a sideboard and found that it was pretty consistent in going off on t3 and I've not run into much hate for the deck yet (though most people I've played have not lasted beyond game 1) but I can definitely see leyline being a concern.
How are you finding your list? I'm thinking of making this deck since it is pretty budget and at the same time hilarious (at least, for the pilot of the deck xD).
I tested this list online without a sideboard and found that it was pretty consistent in going off on t3 and I've not run into much hate for the deck yet (though most people I've played have not lasted beyond game 1) but I can definitely see leyline being a concern.
The two biggest differences are him having less second sunrires (via reclaims and noxious revivals) and more ghost quaters (via fetches).
I like mine better, but fetches are also great (cant belive I never thought of them). Might add them.
After looking a PT, I see most arent be using cards like tormords cript and leyline. So I think I can take natures claim out.
An other thing i noticed were the uses of wargate and eather spellbomb.
Wargate is lame (3 colors)
Eather spellbomb might be main deckable. Even as a 4 of.
Most of the time I go of t4 and win (90% win)
But if I have to I go off t3 (70% win)
Why would you ever touch Wargate with Reshape in the format?
Bad deck builders make this deck unplayable. Good builders make this deck comparable to any other combo in the format. It hits a solid turn 3-4 timetable, and rarely takes longer than turn 5 at the latest if you're being incredibly conservative/mulling poorly.
Play the right cards, and you'll find this deck competing with anything in the format. It's a turn faster than 12Post, potentially several turns faster than Pyromancer's, and is a coin flip with Twin. It shrugs off discard, laughs at countermagic (if you play it half way decently), and ignores grave hate if it's anything but Leyline/Wheel of S&M.
Why would you ever touch Wargate with Reshape in the format?
Bad deck builders make this deck unplayable. Good builders make this deck comparable to any other combo in the format. It hits a solid turn 3-4 timetable, and rarely takes longer than turn 5 at the latest if you're being incredibly conservative/mulling poorly.
Play the right cards, and you'll find this deck competing with anything in the format. It's a turn faster than 12Post, potentially several turns faster than Pyromancer's, and is a coin flip with Twin. It shrugs off discard, laughs at countermagic (if you play it half way decently), and ignores grave hate if it's anything but Leyline/Wheel of S&M.
Do tell me how play around counters without significanly cutting tempo.
And also this isnt as good as any other deck in the format. Then this would be a popular deck. Next, twin is so easy I could beat it with my eyes closed. Cause, against twin all should play eather spellbombs play 3 eather spellbomb in SB.
I dont think this deck can never be competitive. Because it is too easy to hate. Most of the things you mentioned above do really hurt it. Like counters, or discard (to a smaller extent)
Then again, I am fairly new to the game.( Started with m11) so everything I have said is probarbly really stupid.
Pls post deck list so that we can improve them
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
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3 Noxious Revival
4 Reshape
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Wargate
4 Edge of Autumn
3 Ponder
3 Elsewhere Flask
3 Lotus Bloom
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Sunbeam Spellbomb
1 Plains
7 Island
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Misty Rainforest
For those whom are not familiar with this archtype I will refer you to JVL's article from 2009
It's basically a combo deck that wants to sets up to kill you the loop of Second Sunrise, Conjuror's Bauble, Pyrite Spellbomb and Lotus Bloom when you have no cards left in your library.
Ghost Quarter is mostly used on your own lands to not only fix mana, but to generate mana with each second sunrise. You typically need at least 4 cantrips and 2 mana sources (i.e. any combination of Ghost Quarter, Lotus Bloom, Fetchland) to combo off but that will change based on your hand and the situation.
The biggest problem with this deck it is susceptible to most forms of hate. Kataki, Ethersworn Cannonist, Mindbreak Trap, various forms of GY hate (tormod's crypt is the most annoying as they can return it with second sunrise if they blow it on the same turn), Aven Mindsenser, and you have very few ways to interact with your opponent.
For those of you who are still reading here are your advantages. This is the most consistant combo deck in the format can almost reliably beat anything game 1 as the most hate will come in the form of discard which this deck is very good against. You also go off regularly on turn 4-5 and occasionally on 3 and almost no one atm is packing much GY hate as they assume most gy based decks are gone. This means that we can narrow down our sideboard cards to things like Silence, Leyline of Sanctity, Echoing Truth, Pithing Needle, and other cards.
This deck has a hard time sideboarding as it is very reliant on its draws once it is comboing out so you need to make sure that you don't side in more than like 5 cards in any given matchup or you will just have too high a risk of fizzling.
Black LotusLotus Bloom.Also consider adding 2-3 Horizon Canopy.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
I played 2 Pyrites to lessen that chance. I still kept on killing myself with it regardless, but what can you do.
Disciple is more or less useless. There is no point in using it over a spellbomb as a kill condition. They at least can help while you combo. I suppose I could see it being used over Grapeshot, but there really isn't a point to use either (unless you really want a third win condition). If you do use it, though, you don't need to adjust the mana base. Once you get to 0 cards left in your library you can generate infinite mana of any color, play the Disciple, then sac and return artifacts until they die.
You can find me on MTGO. My username is gereffi.
Anyway, the main problem is going off vs combo. I would suggest sideboarding in 4 each of Gigadrowse, Pact of Negation, and Dispel or Silence.
Gigadrowse them on the end of their turn to tap 2 of their lands. This basically burns a counter spell by either denying them mana for one or forcing them to use it on your Gigadrowse; either way it's good.
Then they should only have 3-4 mana open and at most 2 more counter spells available (no FoWs and stuff in this format). Burn one with Silence and counter the other, or counter both.
obviously you can't go off on turn 3 since you need to draw into protection. but a control deck won't put a fast clock on you so you have time.
Oh and WTF is the noxious revival loop that dude is talking about? You just chain those two spells and pray your opponent doesn't counter either of them? Meh, ditch the sunbeam.
Right but auto losing to a deck with counterspells first game just seems like a poor play.
Sunnyside Up
CG
I don't think name calling is warranted. C_c
also check me out on fb
Have you ever even played the deck? Spoils is used to find the piece you are missing, which is almost invariably the first Sunrise because there is no (good) way to tutor for it. Taking out cards from the top is completely unimportant unless it manages to take out all of your wins. The lifeloss isn't irrelevant either. Fast decks can get you down to a life total where Spoils is very likely to straight up kill you. After the first Sunrise, all of the Revivals (and Reclaims) become live, and Spoils is rarely needed to continue.
yes i t32 a ptq with this. it was the ptq to sanjuan.
also check me out on fb
1. spoils of the vault is dumb
It is just bad, really, really bad. Some times you will mIll through vital cards like your win con. And to the comment above saying you can use it to mill your deck can be good for you. How?, it is at best just a win more card and that we dont need. Unlike other decks we have no lifegain so most of the time you will die.
2. Win con
At the start, I thought: hey, that pyrite Spellbomb is awsome. It is. However is it the best? No, Grapeshot is better. Why? You need 2 Lotus Bloom to win. Sometimes you dont have that. When going off (While you don´t 2 lotus) then you have to survive for 3 turns waiting for them to go off suspend. Grape shot is faster, more reliable and easier to use.
3. Sideboard
4 pact of negation
There are a lot of Pacts in this one, why not. Free, protect your combo. This comes in against control.
3 Slaughter pact or eather spellbomb or vendeta or Dismember
Gadock teg is the most anoying creature for this deck(no more reshape) The second is magnus of the moon (for ghoSt quater reasons). We cant win with them on the BF. We dont like that.
4 nature's claim
Kills the very unfortunate leylaine of the void, and all the graveyard hate artifacts.
1 Sunbeam spellbomb
This card is used if your oponent has shroud or hexproof for some reason. Some have it in the main, i dont. Next one.
1 emrakul, The aeons torn
This is great against players who force you use your entire combo. Get infinite mana and cast him. Just to double the humiliation.
2 golden glowmoth or gigadrowse
We need Life against aggro, and this gives us plenty. We need tapping against 12post
4. Dice for mana
Since the mana we use is kinda hard to keep track of. I use color coded dice.
Here is my deck list
4 chromatic sphere
4 chromatic star
4 conjurers bauble
3 elsewhere flask
4 lotus bloom
4 gitaxian probe
4 noxious revival
1 reclaim
4 edge of autum
4 reshape
4 preordain
1 grapeshot
12 island
My errata'd commons cube
How are you finding your list? I'm thinking of making this deck since it is pretty budget and at the same time hilarious (at least, for the pilot of the deck xD).
I tested this list online without a sideboard and found that it was pretty consistent in going off on t3 and I've not run into much hate for the deck yet (though most people I've played have not lasted beyond game 1) but I can definitely see leyline being a concern.
The two biggest differences are him having less second sunrires (via reclaims and noxious revivals) and more ghost quaters (via fetches).
I like mine better, but fetches are also great (cant belive I never thought of them). Might add them.
After looking a PT, I see most arent be using cards like tormords cript and leyline. So I think I can take natures claim out.
An other thing i noticed were the uses of wargate and eather spellbomb.
Wargate is lame (3 colors)
Eather spellbomb might be main deckable. Even as a 4 of.
Most of the time I go of t4 and win (90% win)
But if I have to I go off t3 (70% win)
My errata'd commons cube
Bad deck builders make this deck unplayable. Good builders make this deck comparable to any other combo in the format. It hits a solid turn 3-4 timetable, and rarely takes longer than turn 5 at the latest if you're being incredibly conservative/mulling poorly.
Play the right cards, and you'll find this deck competing with anything in the format. It's a turn faster than 12Post, potentially several turns faster than Pyromancer's, and is a coin flip with Twin. It shrugs off discard, laughs at countermagic (if you play it half way decently), and ignores grave hate if it's anything but Leyline/Wheel of S&M.
Do tell me how play around counters without significanly cutting tempo.
And also this isnt as good as any other deck in the format. Then this would be a popular deck. Next, twin is so easy I could beat it with my eyes closed. Cause, against twin all should play eather spellbombs play 3 eather spellbomb in SB.
I dont think this deck can never be competitive. Because it is too easy to hate. Most of the things you mentioned above do really hurt it. Like counters, or discard (to a smaller extent)
Then again, I am fairly new to the game.( Started with m11) so everything I have said is probarbly really stupid.
Pls post deck list so that we can improve them
Ps: love the new name.
My errata'd commons cube
2 Etherium Sculptor
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Chromatic Star
4 Conjurer's Bauble
3 Elsewhere Flask
2 Ichor Wellspring
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Lotus Bloom
1 Noxious Revival
2 Open the Vaults
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
4 Reshape
4 Second Sunrise
4 Terrarion
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Misty Rainforest
5 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Angel's Grace
4 Echoing Truth
2 Noxious Revival
1 Pithing Needle
4 Silence
Discuss?
Legacy URDelverUR 11-2
M15 Limited format 32-7
They see me trollin...