You only actually need 8 Fog effects. I like the 1cmc and 2cmc split in order to get around Chalice of the Void, and to just be able to only have to leave 1 mana open. I think Dawn Charm and Ethereal Haze is the way to go, though I could see an argument for Pollen Lullaby over Dawn Charm.
And I prefer Elixir to Eldrazi, because what happens when you have a Reliquary Tower out and can't discard? And the 5 life actually makes a big difference in many games. And you won't be needing to cast the Eldrazi to win any games.
What happens when you don't draw your Reliquary Tower or it gets destroyed. I'm not going to run it, I have never been a fan of the card. as for chalice if they can set it at x=2 I would laugh because I still got bant charms or oblivion rings to deal with it. I know 8 is the right number of fog spells, but angel song cycles at worst. Dawn charm is too good against control decks, and pollen lullaby can be 2 fog spells for 1 card which is great.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Has anybody tried Temple Bell over Font of Mythos?
Last time I followed this deck was around M11 and the guy who wrote the primer planned to do so.
Even though it seems like the 1 more card wouldn't be much, it really is. For just 1 more mana (colorless at that) you are each drawing at twice the rate you would have been with Temple Bell. I think it's just strictly better.
Isochron Scepter is too good to leave out in my opinion. Sticking a T2 scepter with a fog on it against the majority of agressive decks is usually a free win game one unless they maindeck artifact removal (3x Qasali Pridemage is probably the most likely, if anything). Remand on a stick is also awesome.
Maindeck Relic of Progenitus and Mindbreak Trap are there to give you a chance to actually beat Twelve/Eightpost game one. They are also both extremely good against most combo decks, with Mindbreak beating Dragonstorm, Second Sunrise, Ad Nauseum, etc. as well as countering Emrakul. Relic beats plenty of decks by itself and helps against Tarmagoyfs, Unearth, Punishing Fire, etc. while cycling for 2 if you don't need it.
Jace's Archivist is MVP when it sticks. Have yet to be dissapointed. The only real problem is that it will attract all of the creature hate your opponent is running because its the only target in your deck for it outside the Colonnades.
Leylines in the sideboard are an obvious inclusion, more Relics and Mindbreaks for the twelvepost/combo matchup, as well as Bribery. Pithing Needles and Disenchants for random utility. Needles get sided in alot, thinking about replacing the Disenchants for two more.
Manabase is me throwing lands in a pile. I actually very rarely have mana problems and avoiding Shocklands and Fetchlands makes it easier to survive against aggro and take a few early hits without worry. Probably don't even need the painlands.
I have never played this deck at a competetive level, but I played it for ages at a casual level. I found that I love this deck style, but rarely have the patience for an all out Mill strategy in a tournament situation. I prefer a more control build that is a bit of a hybrid between Fog and U/W Control. My win is Soldier Tokens or Manlands, and I am thinking of serching for cards that decrease opponent's hand size to take away some of the tools we give them.
What really frustrates me is that I cannot find room for more Artifact/Enchantment destruction and for Leyline of Sanctity in the MD. I suppose I could drop the Soldier Token kill and stick with Manlands, but I hate being that focused.
It would be hard to beat combo with this deck. If the meta switches to zoo then this could be competitive thus why I started the thread.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Well, first of all I do not think that Zoo is going anywhere. Second, I think that control still has some teeth against combo despite not having access to Mental Misstep, and a more control focused build (which may add more reasons for me to only have Manlands as the win) can work.
Any thoughts on the deck post-banning? Worrying about Post is clearly out.
I just made a budget version on MTGO (I had 9 tickets total at my disposal to get the deck from scratch...had to make some substitutions [i.e. Temple Bell for Font of Mythos, and a much worse switch of Condemn for Path to Exile]), but I haven't run it through anything other than casual games. Seems like a fun deck to play, though without having played against the combos that are running the format right now, I can't say how it might do.
I went with Mono-White, with mill and Luminarch Ascension as win-conditions. My list:
The second Elixir is there just to ensure I can get one down if need be. With no way to recur it, having at least a second copy seemed prudent. Only 1 Leyline as I figure I can draw into it with the card draw if needed, with more in a potential sideboard I have yet to create. Silence is similar, as without a Scepter to equip it to it's not all that exciting.
And speaking of which, in the few games I've played, the scepter has really been quite nice. Putting a fog effect of Dawn Charm or Haze effectively stalls the game for you as you either build up more fogs in you hand, tick up ascension, or drop down some more card draw. Silence lock is also obviously good. With 9 targets and a good engine going, there's only a small chance it will be dead, and even getting a few activations or turns out of it makes it worth it.
EDIT: Oh yes, and I didn't see Safe Passage mentioned much here, perhaps because of the slightly prohibitive cost, but since it also doubles as Grapeshot protection it seemed like a natural inclusion. It can't fit on the scepter though unfortunately.
Okay, I've been playing Mono-white tron, Snow-white, Turbo fog in Standard and Extended for 5 years now? I started playing "snow-white" with Genju of the fields and tron combo back before marty and proc were ever printed. I love the concept of the deck and how it controls while literally not doing anything. I'm not sure why every fog deck in here forgot about the marty. Now to the actual deck-testing history for modern. I started out with snow-white. Scrying sheets/proc howling mine, marty, rites, etc. I didn't like it. It didn't "auto-win" to aggro. IF your verizon does not auto-win to aggro you should can it. That is what this deck is designed for. Snow-white probably doesn't deserve to see play. However, turbo fog simply smacks around aggro. I put fogs back in and went for the decking concepts. I had a lot of secondly wins surrounding it as well. Pristine angel, iona, urza's factories etc etc. However, I wasn't happy with the results. Yes it smacks most aggro out of the park. Still drops games here and there to discard (tarmo-rack) and Doran. But it would completely auto lose to decks like heartbeat, dragon storm, emrakul combo, twin, u/r control, u/w control. I wanted a deck that could handle the formant, not MOST of the aggro decks in modern. So I decided to splash black for Extipate to clean up some matchups and "bad cards" against it. One godless in the main with sac lands was enough. I also saw how inconsistent it was to run win conditions. Whether it be hoofbeats, mesas, the 1/1 kithkin that pumps itself and can be brought back on a proc (the name has escaped me), it just doesn't work well. Furthermore, even though proc of rebirth is a great card to combo with marty to lock out every burn/aggro deck around, it is actually a huge waste of a slot. Emeria needs 7 lands. Proc needs 7 to have the same uncounterable life-gain lockouts.
Okay, now onto some final thoughts about my verizon. Path is missing. I tried to play it but honestly it is a dead card. In a deck that tries to stop damage and make your opps draw out, stopping one creature doesn't really help. It isn't the same as a fog. Play it and test without it, you will never miss it. Mouth of ronom is a land, so a wasted card slot on path just doesn't make sense. Secondly, the absense of scrying sheets is also something you learn from testing. Spending time and mana to possibly draw one card (a land) and thin your deck is better left to sac lands which tutor for the added colors.
Witness was a random thought. I figured it can bring back anything. It is never dead and the fact it doubles with emeria seals it's fate. The 6 wrath slots have ran the best for me. It's enough to always have answers against aggro and it's not too many to always jam up your hand. The gideon was another card I missed out on at the beginning. It doubles as a win condition and as a fog on a stick. It can come into play and smack down an annoying tarmo/Doran. I would play Dawn charm in any form of Fog/Snow-white. The fact it is so versitile can not be underestimated. Versatility in a wide open format is huge. I would play every card that doubles/triples for usage in any known matchup. I'm tempted to test blue in here over green now. CC and Jace fit the build of versatitlity. The other cards to think about depending on the format would be tect edge. It's a card that should have a home in this deck. I personally believe aggro will be the deck-type to beat. I tried to gear my fog to handle aggro hands-down. The big problem is the lack of information so far. I'm not sure if I want to beat Doran or Merfolk, Death cloud or heartbeat. I'm trying to figure out the best way to make fog have answers to anything it will run into. We all know the numbers against aggro. I want a universal answer for the format. This is where the side-board comes into play. I have checked the math and played enough games to be happy with the main deck numbers. I love the land counts and the wrath counts. 8 fogs with wraths and gideons to double is almost over-kill. Rings and mouth can answer to other things and dawn charming a burn spell/discard spell happens more often than a fog choice. The side-board however is up in the air. I tried to run random one and 2 ofs in teh main to help the matchups in game 1. Cards like leyline had a home at some point in the main. But the board should pack 4 leylines and an answer to LD. From life from the loam to cruicble of worlds its up the testing. Extirpate is huge card as well. It literally comes in to any non aggro deck. It deals with twin decks, helps against gifts, shuts down control, and eats alive Emrakul triggers. I would not dream of playing fog without it in the side. I love cards like faith's fetters and ghostly prison but have never found room in the 75. The b/w fog spell against tooth and nail or twin is interesting as well. Finally the ability for grip to get passed countermagic and not allow players to stack efforts warrants a slot in my mind. It is 3 in the morning and I am dyslexic, if I ranted or did not make any sense. Please let me know to clearify.
Your list and explanation are great, but I fear not enough for the format. I do not have the cards to test this list, so everything is specualtion, but even if your deck is optimal I don't think optimal works against some key decks. First of almost folds to an early Ravager that is fling-ed at your face. From there it has the potential to come back, but in my experience there is not quite enough steam. Second, I find that decks that run a few answers to a lot of decks, and does not have a tutor engine, tends to not have what it needs at the right time.
I could be wrong, however. Your list has a lot of potential on paper, but I fear will not be quite enough. When I get a chance to get the cards for this deck I will try it out, though.
@Pinkfloyd that is my favorite anti aggro combo! Problem with it is that its a 5 land requirement and if you want to run any acceleration you need 3 color. Running 3 colors really isn't a huge problem since Bant is an extremely strong multi color combination for turbofog. The only problem with running Venser + Stonehorn is that Venser is next to worthless without the Stonehorn and the Stonehorn isn't going to help too terribly much by itself.
The thing about fog though...It has very few bad matchups so far. Heartbeat isn't fun and neither is Fish. But outside of that...It doesn't have a -EV against the format...
I guess its time that I actually fully build this deck. If I can't play a traditional deck then I'll just play a deck to piss people off. I can't wait to take this to a ptq with essentially no way to win only to make every match go to time and mess up a lot of zoo players days.
UW seems good although I'm looking for another color to splash for versatility sake.
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
You do have an extremely consistent way to win. Mill. You just shuffle your graveyard back, but they mill due to Howling Mine type effects.
well ofc, but Its going to go to time just about every match.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I've played against several turbofog decklists online in recent days, and each time I was running either UG counter aggro or Bant. THESE are baaad matchups for fog. I have yet to lose to these lists thanks to counter, bant charm, and well-timed isochron denials via (don't laugh) maindecked Voidslimes. Also, how's the mirror?
My only concern is getting burned out. Now that leyline of sanctity is out of the mainboard, how do we protect ourselves?
dawn charm is a dual threat fog/counters burn. Also a few counters are needed to deal with non aggro decks. Leyline seems better in board than main, but it is a very good card in the sideboard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
What happens when you don't draw your Reliquary Tower or it gets destroyed. I'm not going to run it, I have never been a fan of the card. as for chalice if they can set it at x=2 I would laugh because I still got bant charms or oblivion rings to deal with it. I know 8 is the right number of fog spells, but angel song cycles at worst. Dawn charm is too good against control decks, and pollen lullaby can be 2 fog spells for 1 card which is great.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Even though it seems like the 1 more card wouldn't be much, it really is. For just 1 more mana (colorless at that) you are each drawing at twice the rate you would have been with Temple Bell. I think it's just strictly better.
4 Howling Mine
4 Temple Bell
4 Isochron Scepter
2 Relic of Progenitus
INSANTS / SORCERIES (20)
3 Archive Trap
3 Dawn Charm
4 Ethereal Haze
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Path to Exile
3 Pollen Lullaby
3 Remand
3 Jace's Archivist
LANDS (23)
4 Glacial Fortress
7 Island
6 Plains
2 Celestial Colonnade
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Disenchant
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Bribery
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
This is what I've been playing around with.
Isochron Scepter is too good to leave out in my opinion. Sticking a T2 scepter with a fog on it against the majority of agressive decks is usually a free win game one unless they maindeck artifact removal (3x Qasali Pridemage is probably the most likely, if anything). Remand on a stick is also awesome.
Maindeck Relic of Progenitus and Mindbreak Trap are there to give you a chance to actually beat Twelve/Eightpost game one. They are also both extremely good against most combo decks, with Mindbreak beating Dragonstorm, Second Sunrise, Ad Nauseum, etc. as well as countering Emrakul. Relic beats plenty of decks by itself and helps against Tarmagoyfs, Unearth, Punishing Fire, etc. while cycling for 2 if you don't need it.
Jace's Archivist is MVP when it sticks. Have yet to be dissapointed. The only real problem is that it will attract all of the creature hate your opponent is running because its the only target in your deck for it outside the Colonnades.
Leylines in the sideboard are an obvious inclusion, more Relics and Mindbreaks for the twelvepost/combo matchup, as well as Bribery. Pithing Needles and Disenchants for random utility. Needles get sided in alot, thinking about replacing the Disenchants for two more.
Manabase is me throwing lands in a pile. I actually very rarely have mana problems and avoiding Shocklands and Fetchlands makes it easier to survive against aggro and take a few early hits without worry. Probably don't even need the painlands.
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mystic Gate
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Magosi, the Waterveil
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Reflecting Pool
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Quicksand
1 Kabira Crossroads
1 Sejiri Refuge
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace Beleren
1 Karn Liberated
3 Howling Mine
2 Temple Bell
4 Font of Mythos
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Elixir of Immortality
3 Wrath of God
2 Day of Judgement
1 Luminarch Ascension
3 Cryptic Command
4 Rune Snag
2 Dawn Charm
3 Ethereal Haze
2 Holy Day
Still working on a sideboard, help would be awesome.
2 Ethereal Haze
4 Dawn Charm
2 Holy Day
Counter/Removal:
3 Path to Exile
3 Mana Leak
4 Rune Snag
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Wrath of God
Draw:
3 Howling Mine
3 Font of Mythos
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Timely Reinforcements
1 Sun Titan
Land:
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Glacial Fortress
3 Inkmoth Nexus
6 Island
6 Plains
4 Leyline of Sanctity
What really frustrates me is that I cannot find room for more Artifact/Enchantment destruction and for Leyline of Sanctity in the MD. I suppose I could drop the Soldier Token kill and stick with Manlands, but I hate being that focused.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I just made a budget version on MTGO (I had 9 tickets total at my disposal to get the deck from scratch...had to make some substitutions [i.e. Temple Bell for Font of Mythos, and a much worse switch of Condemn for Path to Exile]), but I haven't run it through anything other than casual games. Seems like a fun deck to play, though without having played against the combos that are running the format right now, I can't say how it might do.
I went with Mono-White, with mill and Luminarch Ascension as win-conditions. My list:
19 Plains
4 Reliquary Tower
Artifacts (12)
4 Howling Mine
4 Temple Bell
2 Elixir of Immortality
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Ethereal Haze
4 Dawn Charm
4 Safe Passage
4 Day of Judgment
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Condemn
2 Luminarch Ascension
1 Silence
1 Leyline of Sanctity
The second Elixir is there just to ensure I can get one down if need be. With no way to recur it, having at least a second copy seemed prudent. Only 1 Leyline as I figure I can draw into it with the card draw if needed, with more in a potential sideboard I have yet to create. Silence is similar, as without a Scepter to equip it to it's not all that exciting.
And speaking of which, in the few games I've played, the scepter has really been quite nice. Putting a fog effect of Dawn Charm or Haze effectively stalls the game for you as you either build up more fogs in you hand, tick up ascension, or drop down some more card draw. Silence lock is also obviously good. With 9 targets and a good engine going, there's only a small chance it will be dead, and even getting a few activations or turns out of it makes it worth it.
EDIT: Oh yes, and I didn't see Safe Passage mentioned much here, perhaps because of the slightly prohibitive cost, but since it also doubles as Grapeshot protection it seemed like a natural inclusion. It can't fit on the scepter though unfortunately.
1 Arid mesa
1 Godless Shrine
3 Emeria, the sky ruin
9 Snow-Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Temple Gardens
2 Mouth of ronom
Creatures
4 Martyr of Sands
1 Emerakul
3 Eternal Witness
4 Wrath of God
4 Howling Mine
4 Rites of Flourishing
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Pollen Lullaby
3 Gideon Jura
4 Dawn Charm
2 Day of Judgement
4 Sacred Ground
4 Leyling of Sanctity
1 Safe Passage
4 Extirpate
4 Krosan Grip
Okay, I've been playing Mono-white tron, Snow-white, Turbo fog in Standard and Extended for 5 years now? I started playing "snow-white" with Genju of the fields and tron combo back before marty and proc were ever printed. I love the concept of the deck and how it controls while literally not doing anything. I'm not sure why every fog deck in here forgot about the marty. Now to the actual deck-testing history for modern. I started out with snow-white. Scrying sheets/proc howling mine, marty, rites, etc. I didn't like it. It didn't "auto-win" to aggro. IF your verizon does not auto-win to aggro you should can it. That is what this deck is designed for. Snow-white probably doesn't deserve to see play. However, turbo fog simply smacks around aggro. I put fogs back in and went for the decking concepts. I had a lot of secondly wins surrounding it as well. Pristine angel, iona, urza's factories etc etc. However, I wasn't happy with the results. Yes it smacks most aggro out of the park. Still drops games here and there to discard (tarmo-rack) and Doran. But it would completely auto lose to decks like heartbeat, dragon storm, emrakul combo, twin, u/r control, u/w control. I wanted a deck that could handle the formant, not MOST of the aggro decks in modern. So I decided to splash black for Extipate to clean up some matchups and "bad cards" against it. One godless in the main with sac lands was enough. I also saw how inconsistent it was to run win conditions. Whether it be hoofbeats, mesas, the 1/1 kithkin that pumps itself and can be brought back on a proc (the name has escaped me), it just doesn't work well. Furthermore, even though proc of rebirth is a great card to combo with marty to lock out every burn/aggro deck around, it is actually a huge waste of a slot. Emeria needs 7 lands. Proc needs 7 to have the same uncounterable life-gain lockouts.
Okay, now onto some final thoughts about my verizon. Path is missing. I tried to play it but honestly it is a dead card. In a deck that tries to stop damage and make your opps draw out, stopping one creature doesn't really help. It isn't the same as a fog. Play it and test without it, you will never miss it. Mouth of ronom is a land, so a wasted card slot on path just doesn't make sense. Secondly, the absense of scrying sheets is also something you learn from testing. Spending time and mana to possibly draw one card (a land) and thin your deck is better left to sac lands which tutor for the added colors.
Witness was a random thought. I figured it can bring back anything. It is never dead and the fact it doubles with emeria seals it's fate. The 6 wrath slots have ran the best for me. It's enough to always have answers against aggro and it's not too many to always jam up your hand. The gideon was another card I missed out on at the beginning. It doubles as a win condition and as a fog on a stick. It can come into play and smack down an annoying tarmo/Doran. I would play Dawn charm in any form of Fog/Snow-white. The fact it is so versitile can not be underestimated.
Versatility in a wide open format is huge. I would play every card that doubles/triples for usage in any known matchup. I'm tempted to test blue in here over green now. CC and Jace fit the build of versatitlity. The other cards to think about depending on the format would be tect edge. It's a card that should have a home in this deck. I personally believe aggro will be the deck-type to beat. I tried to gear my fog to handle aggro hands-down. The big problem is the lack of information so far. I'm not sure if I want to beat Doran or Merfolk, Death cloud or heartbeat. I'm trying to figure out the best way to make fog have answers to anything it will run into. We all know the numbers against aggro. I want a universal answer for the format.
This is where the side-board comes into play. I have checked the math and played enough games to be happy with the main deck numbers. I love the land counts and the wrath counts. 8 fogs with wraths and gideons to double is almost over-kill. Rings and mouth can answer to other things and dawn charming a burn spell/discard spell happens more often than a fog choice. The side-board however is up in the air. I tried to run random one and 2 ofs in teh main to help the matchups in game 1. Cards like leyline had a home at some point in the main. But the board should pack 4 leylines and an answer to LD. From life from the loam to cruicble of worlds its up the testing. Extirpate is huge card as well. It literally comes in to any non aggro deck. It deals with twin decks, helps against gifts, shuts down control, and eats alive Emrakul triggers. I would not dream of playing fog without it in the side. I love cards like faith's fetters and ghostly prison but have never found room in the 75. The b/w fog spell against tooth and nail or twin is interesting as well. Finally the ability for grip to get passed countermagic and not allow players to stack efforts warrants a slot in my mind. It is 3 in the morning and I am dyslexic, if I ranted or did not make any sense. Please let me know to clearify.
Added deck tags t_c
LOL
I could be wrong, however. Your list has a lot of potential on paper, but I fear will not be quite enough. When I get a chance to get the cards for this deck I will try it out, though.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
RIP Eggs
My Trade Thread
I'll be working from the base of your build to test this out.
UW seems good although I'm looking for another color to splash for versatility sake.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
well ofc, but Its going to go to time just about every match.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
CG
dawn charm is a dual threat fog/counters burn. Also a few counters are needed to deal with non aggro decks. Leyline seems better in board than main, but it is a very good card in the sideboard.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson