Trust me, control can be built to be viable without Jace 2.0, av, and MM. ( I doubt we will ever see MM come of the ban list. Look what its dont to the other eternal formats.) It was prior to the printing of those cards and it can be again. Instead of looking at the ban list and saying, I wish we could use a,b,or c. How about looking at the cards available and saying I wonder if x,y,or z will work. Too many people are spoiled by using the cards you mention.
...and there are more then just zoo and affinity viable. Just wait for the next pro tourny to show everyone.
By all means, show us a viable decklist. It's rather naive to assume that everyone has been doing nothing but complaining and no one has actually tried to build a deck with what we have now.
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It's kinda like both were printed with "Bear" as the first ability, and one was errata'd to "Support Weight" the other was errata'd to "Large Furry Animal". Both are correct, depending on the context
By all means, show us a viable decklist. It's rather naive to assume that everyone has been doing nothing but complaining and no one has actually tried to build a deck with what we have now.
I have been running NLU online beating up on zoo, living end, restore balance decks. I can beat affinity but the match up is very close. They are very boring games of draw go control.
I too lament that people are giving up on the format. That is sad, because the format is going to take time to stabilize (a fact that both you and I have acknowledged).
I do not, however, fault people for "moaning and crying" about the format. Right now, it is really not living up to the hype, and there are clear reasons for that. These reasons are shared by a lot of people, and they represent general format dissatisfaction to an extent that Wizards should have been better prepared in starting things off.
This era in which Modern arises is very different from the one that saw Legacy's formation. We use forums more. We read more online articles. We communicate with each other more frequently in online mediums. We play Magic online in various different programs roughly the same amount as paper (Trice, MWS, MTGO). These factors all create a far different environment for Modern than Legacy enjoyed in 2004. Our expectations are higher. Justifiably so, I should say. The format is not a disaster by any means, but it has big issues that the current internet-oriented player base can easily blow out of proportion. We should expect "moaning and crying" in such a day and age, because Modern has real problems and people are going to be vocal about them.
I maintain that all of those problems are in the context of Modern's relationship with Legacy.
-ktkenshinx-
Truer words have never been spoke.. I think everyone should read this
After all, wasn't the whole reason for making modern in the first place to make a cheaper, yet equally diverse eternal format?
No, the point of Modern was to increase card availability since they can actually reprint staples. Legacy is doomed to stunted growth because there are limited numbers of format staples that will never increase, whereas if some evil genius bought every shockland in the world and burned them, Wizards could just print new ones. Price wasn't ever really the issue, it was the fact that Legacy has a growth cap on it and Modern doesn't.
A. Giving up on the format
or
B. Moaning and crying before it's had a chance to stabilize
Give it some time, people. Legacy wasn't shaped into the awesomesauce it is now in the space of a couple months.
Agreed.
Zoo and Affinity may be the aggro decks to beat.
1.) Combo isn't dead. Just slower - Turn 3-4, which will still beat Zoo and Affinity unless they have GOD hands.
2.) Faeries are Legit, so are other tribal decks, As i said I play Merfolk, I have only lost to Pod so far out of 5 matches.
3.) It needs time to stabalize and I believe a few things may come off the banned lists. There needs to be a lot more paper + online games to see which decks will be lop-sided.
No, the point of Modern was to increase card availability since they can actually reprint staples. Legacy is doomed to stunted growth because there are limited numbers of format staples that will never increase, whereas if some evil genius bought every shockland in the world and burned them, Wizards could just print new ones. Price wasn't ever really the issue, it was the fact that Legacy has a growth cap on it and Modern doesn't.
A lot of people say that, but I still see lots of Duals/Staples available online and at Big tournanments when venders attend. I think it is more like the point about Goyf someone brought up earlier as to why Goyf is overpowered in Modern... Price. For instance, look on eBay, search a random dual. You'll see at least a page available bids, No one needs more than 4.
I know what they said, but I don't recall why they chose such an arbitrary number of turns. I suspect that had to do with certain combo decks edgeing out other combo decks, OR combo decks edging out aggro and control.
Yeah, some combo decks are so good that other combo decks can't be played.
Given that we have 2 aggro decks in the format, and it can be argued only one tier 1 aggro deck, and 0 control decks in the format, do you think that the combo decks are still dominant, or that using thier ban tool that wizards could diversify the aggro scene. Do you think that would lead to more aggro decktypes and does diversity in decks lead to a more fun format?
ZOO is usually the only aggro deck in any 1.x format that aggro has been good in. I don't know what you would ban, I think goyf and something else would be necessary to make zoo no better than other tribal based aggro decks, the trick is to find something that doesn't hurt other aggro decks. Diversity in the format absolutely leads to more fun. A formats fun is pretty much determined upon speed, different decks, and how diverse those decks are.
Do you guys think that the angst against Zoo is because it edges out other aggro decks/narrows the field, or do you think its because its the same dumb creatures we've seen in standard then extended for the last 3 years and we're just tired of seeing this deck all over the place running the same 60 in virtually all formats?
Well zoo has gotten better every set since rav, while non-creature spells for the most part have got worse and worse. What other decks can drop a 1 mana 3/3 or a 2 mana 4/5 and a 3 mana 6/6? I know that doran can, but doran dieing makes your 3/3 a 0/3 so you essentially get a 2 for 1 on removal. Also the 0/3 doesn't hit until turn 3. If other decks were faster then zoo would evolve into a midrange aggro killer, with some spot removal, punishing fire, and such.
Currently I'm not convinced that even with 4 turn combos and a few powerful creatures banned that control has a tier 1 deck up thier sleeve. I think wizards may actually have to print options to make control viable, and frankly I'm not sure what those options would need to be.
I pretty sure that your right about that. I've been doing some testing and I can make 3 viable control decks using a few banned cards, but 0 with what I have to use now. Tron/tezzerator are so close all they need is chrome mox, and then this format would be fun for me.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Modern is fine. It could have been better if they didn't completely destroy 12post (at least for me), but it's fine as long as wizards promote it. Right now the format is dead because people are waiting for both the bans and the pros to make the decks so they can netdeck them.
But with time the format will be better. The only problem I see right know is tarmogoyf's price (and this is so obvious noone can disagree) and its inclusion in too many decks (here we have to wait and see but I predict it will be played in so many decks that the top8s will be full of him, but this might or might not be a problem after all).
A lot of people say that, but I still see lots of Duals/Staples available online and at Big tournanments when venders attend. I think it is more like the point about Goyf someone brought up earlier as to why Goyf is overpowered in Modern... Price. For instance, look on eBay, search a random dual. You'll see at least a page available bids, No one needs more than 4.
Just because you're able to buy them doesn't mean that there's still a limited quantity. If Legacy continues to grow, then there will come a point where there literally aren't enough cards to go around. That's not to say you'll never see them for sale. The difficulty in obtaining Legacy staples will only ever increase.
I'm not saying that price isn't an issue to consider, but the problem in the first place was the Reserved List.
i'm kind of done with modern because the decks i made and played got banned.... multiple times. I also want to play nlu, but i don't want to shell out the money to complete the deck. I don't want to play against zoo all the time and that's mainly what my local will be.
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P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
The second sentence of that comment is more of a conclusion than a fact, but I think it is a very fair conclusion to make given the circumstances. I am not blindly speculating out of my behind when I state this policy. Wizards has repeatedly, both in banning articles and general format articles, made it clear that Modern is NOT Legacy, and that Modern should have its own unique feel. There is hope that they will continue to uphold this format definition, and that bodes well for us. There are a number of necessary actions that follow from the above statement, but before getting into those, I would love to hear others' thoughts on the matter. Do people see any problems with the format that cannot somehow be reduced to Modern being too similar to Legacy?
-ktkenshinx-
The instability caused by WotC's "more aggressive" approach to the banlist
Which, actually, isn't something that bothers me in itself. But it is something that's clearly set a few people on edge. Some who seemed to want a "budget Legacy" environment, some who just strike me as just extending staunch Laissez-Faire principles to the game environment (ie. "leave it alone, the Invisible Hand will fix everything in time,") and some who are legitimately concerned about putting in the effort to 'break the format' only to be punished by having their creation banned out of existence.
I have been running NLU online beating up on zoo, living end, restore balance decks. I can beat affinity but the match up is very close. They are very boring games of draw go control.
I'm not saying that I think NLU is bad, because it is probably the best control deck in modern, but saying that you beat up on zoo decks online doesn't actually prove the viability of your deck.
But the point of my reply was not to ferret out your decklist or anything like that, my point was that answering someone trying to address real issues in the format with "Stop whining and innovate" is rather insulting and naive.
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It's kinda like both were printed with "Bear" as the first ability, and one was errata'd to "Support Weight" the other was errata'd to "Large Furry Animal". Both are correct, depending on the context
the only thing i see in it any more is that its an additional format for me to play, one where i already have all the cards to make zoo because every other archetype has been banned into oblivion. I LOVE TURNING DUDES SIDEWAYS ITS SO FUN... yawn.
I'm not saying that I think NLU is bad, because it is probably the best control deck in modern, but saying that you beat up on zoo decks online doesn't actually prove the viability of your deck.
But the point of my reply was not to ferret out your decklist or anything like that, my point was that answering someone trying to address real issues in the format with "Stop whining and innovate" is rather insulting and naive.
If you are trying, forgive me, I wasnt talking about you. But there is a good portion of people complaining about certain archtypes being unplayable because their pet cards were banned. Control was being played long before AV,MM, and Jace 2.0 were printed. Anyone saying they NEED the cards that are banned to play the an archtype are not even trying. It may be insulting (but true in many cases), its not naive.
If you are trying, forgive me, I wasnt talking about you. But there is a good portion of people complaining about certain archtypes being unplayable because their pet cards were banned. Control was being played long before AV,MM, and Jace 2.0 were printed. Anyone saying they NEED the cards that are banned to play the an archtype are not even trying. It may be insulting (but true in many cases), its not naive.
This. In Old Extended, how many of those were even played (minus MM, obviously)? Control can live without them just fine, especially since the format keeps being slowed down.
If you are trying, forgive me, I wasnt talking about you. But there is a good portion of people complaining about certain archtypes being unplayable because their pet cards were banned. Control was being played long before AV,MM, and Jace 2.0 were printed. Anyone saying they NEED the cards that are banned to play the an archtype are not even trying. It may be insulting (but true in many cases), its not naive.
I actually agree with a lot of the points you make, but I wanted to address the one issue I highlighted.
It's true that control was around way before these banned cards, but magic was a very different game years ago. Creatures have been undergoing powercreep for a long time now, which is why more powerful control cards had to be printed.
I remember the first time someone went BBE -> Woolly Thoctar I almost couldn't believe you could get 8/6 power toughness of creatures for only 4 mana. A 5/4 for 3 mana used to be unheard of or would have had a large drawback.
Currently, control does not have access to their more powerful spells while Zoo has access to the most efficient creatures available and was barely touched by the bannings.
I'm not trying to jump the gun here and say control is unplayable, but I've been testing all manner of control lists against zoo ranging from U/w, Esper, and Grixis to NLU and the matchup just seems unfavorable.
Maybe if you want to play control, dont try a control deck based around countering everything. Maybe, MWC instead. Or DnT? I know this is going to be viewed as a slap in the face to some of the Island fanatics, but honestly, control works, and can smash Zoo to pieces but you maybe have to try a different control archetype.
There are (very broadly) three kinds of control: Tempo, prison, and permission. Ideally, you'd like a format in which all three are viable, much like you want beatdown decks to go from sligh to midrange.
I think permission is viable around a sufficiently good toolbox or card advantage engine, like Bob and Mystical Teachings, or might be close to viable (It might be one of the decks being edged out of the format by zoo).
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On average, Magic players are worse at new card evaluation than almost every other skill, except perhaps sideboarding.
I actually agree with a lot of the points you make, but I wanted to address the one issue I highlighted.
It's true that control was around way before these banned cards, but magic was a very different game years ago. Creatures have been undergoing powercreep for a long time now, which is why more powerful control cards had to be printed.
Thank you good sir, I'm glad someone went and made this point, because throughout this whole thread, people have been continually repeating "Shut up, control has existed before, so it can exist now"
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It's kinda like both were printed with "Bear" as the first ability, and one was errata'd to "Support Weight" the other was errata'd to "Large Furry Animal". Both are correct, depending on the context
If you let everything power creep, the game quickly becomes unrecognisable. Again: I prefer a format with neither Tarmogoyf nor Bitterblossom to one with both or either.
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On average, Magic players are worse at new card evaluation than almost every other skill, except perhaps sideboarding.
Thank you good sir, I'm glad someone went and made this point, because throughout this whole thread, people have been continually repeating "Shut up, control has existed before, so it can exist now"
Control exists in other formats too, with a modern design sensibility. It's a matter of finding out which build to run, instead of relying on what was effective before. If aggro is the problem, run less permission and more removal.
Control exists in other formats too, with a modern design sensibility. It's a matter of finding out which build to run, instead of relying on what was effective before. If aggro is the problem, run less permission and more removal.
The other widely played format with Modern's design sensibility is Legacy. Control does indeed thrive there but it has access to a host of cards that we do not. On the other hand, Modern Zoo and Legacy Zoo are essentially the same deck.
It's not simply a matter of just running more removal, even running 4 wrath MB doesn't suddenly make the matchup great. Control has a major lack of good card draw at the moment
Please keep in mind though, I am in no way saying that control in unplayable right now. I just wouldn't play control if I was going to a modern tournament tomorrow.
If they keep goyf in the format i think should make another creature that is around the same power level as goyf that cant really be played in the same deck. Something like Jotun Grunt only a little more playable. And to the OP I modern seems a lot more fun to me than standard or extended right now. There are a lot of decks that still have yet to surface, also the power level of the format is low enough that you can make a decent rogue deck on your own that at least stands a chance. Have fun doing that in Legacy.
The instability caused by WotC's "more aggressive" approach to the banlist
Which, actually, isn't something that bothers me in itself. But it is something that's clearly set a few people on edge. Some who seemed to want a "budget Legacy" environment, some who just strike me as just extending staunch Laissez-Faire principles to the game environment (ie. "leave it alone, the Invisible Hand will fix everything in time,") and some who are legitimately concerned about putting in the effort to 'break the format' only to be punished by having their creation banned out of existence.
Yep, I'm one of those people. I was genuinely excited for Modern (this coming from a Legacy player), but all of the bannings just make me not want to invest the time or money into the format. I feel like all the top decks will just get neutered out of contention at every B&R update.
The big appeal of Modern to me is that it's eternal, just like Legacy. But it doesn't feel like an eternal format if the good cards just keep getting banned. Maybe this is how the format will get an artificial "rotation" each season? I guess I'll stick to Legacy & EDH until all the bannings settle down and the format finds its identity.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
By all means, show us a viable decklist. It's rather naive to assume that everyone has been doing nothing but complaining and no one has actually tried to build a deck with what we have now.
My EDH decks:
BRKaervek the Merciless (unfinished)BR
I have been running NLU online beating up on zoo, living end, restore balance decks. I can beat affinity but the match up is very close. They are very boring games of draw go control.
Truer words have never been spoke.. I think everyone should read this
No, the point of Modern was to increase card availability since they can actually reprint staples. Legacy is doomed to stunted growth because there are limited numbers of format staples that will never increase, whereas if some evil genius bought every shockland in the world and burned them, Wizards could just print new ones. Price wasn't ever really the issue, it was the fact that Legacy has a growth cap on it and Modern doesn't.
Agreed.
Zoo and Affinity may be the aggro decks to beat.
1.) Combo isn't dead. Just slower - Turn 3-4, which will still beat Zoo and Affinity unless they have GOD hands.
2.) Faeries are Legit, so are other tribal decks, As i said I play Merfolk, I have only lost to Pod so far out of 5 matches.
3.) It needs time to stabalize and I believe a few things may come off the banned lists. There needs to be a lot more paper + online games to see which decks will be lop-sided.
A lot of people say that, but I still see lots of Duals/Staples available online and at Big tournanments when venders attend. I think it is more like the point about Goyf someone brought up earlier as to why Goyf is overpowered in Modern... Price. For instance, look on eBay, search a random dual. You'll see at least a page available bids, No one needs more than 4.
Yes. His summary is the best to describe the situation right now.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
I pretty sure that your right about that. I've been doing some testing and I can make 3 viable control decks using a few banned cards, but 0 with what I have to use now. Tron/tezzerator are so close all they need is chrome mox, and then this format would be fun for me.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
But with time the format will be better. The only problem I see right know is tarmogoyf's price (and this is so obvious noone can disagree) and its inclusion in too many decks (here we have to wait and see but I predict it will be played in so many decks that the top8s will be full of him, but this might or might not be a problem after all).
Just because you're able to buy them doesn't mean that there's still a limited quantity. If Legacy continues to grow, then there will come a point where there literally aren't enough cards to go around. That's not to say you'll never see them for sale. The difficulty in obtaining Legacy staples will only ever increase.
I'm not saying that price isn't an issue to consider, but the problem in the first place was the Reserved List.
The instability caused by WotC's "more aggressive" approach to the banlist
Which, actually, isn't something that bothers me in itself. But it is something that's clearly set a few people on edge. Some who seemed to want a "budget Legacy" environment, some who just strike me as just extending staunch Laissez-Faire principles to the game environment (ie. "leave it alone, the Invisible Hand will fix everything in time,") and some who are legitimately concerned about putting in the effort to 'break the format' only to be punished by having their creation banned out of existence.
I'm not saying that I think NLU is bad, because it is probably the best control deck in modern, but saying that you beat up on zoo decks online doesn't actually prove the viability of your deck.
But the point of my reply was not to ferret out your decklist or anything like that, my point was that answering someone trying to address real issues in the format with "Stop whining and innovate" is rather insulting and naive.
My EDH decks:
BRKaervek the Merciless (unfinished)BR
If you are trying, forgive me, I wasnt talking about you. But there is a good portion of people complaining about certain archtypes being unplayable because their pet cards were banned. Control was being played long before AV,MM, and Jace 2.0 were printed. Anyone saying they NEED the cards that are banned to play the an archtype are not even trying. It may be insulting (but true in many cases), its not naive.
This. In Old Extended, how many of those were even played (minus MM, obviously)? Control can live without them just fine, especially since the format keeps being slowed down.
I actually agree with a lot of the points you make, but I wanted to address the one issue I highlighted.
It's true that control was around way before these banned cards, but magic was a very different game years ago. Creatures have been undergoing powercreep for a long time now, which is why more powerful control cards had to be printed.
I remember the first time someone went BBE -> Woolly Thoctar I almost couldn't believe you could get 8/6 power toughness of creatures for only 4 mana. A 5/4 for 3 mana used to be unheard of or would have had a large drawback.
Currently, control does not have access to their more powerful spells while Zoo has access to the most efficient creatures available and was barely touched by the bannings.
I'm not trying to jump the gun here and say control is unplayable, but I've been testing all manner of control lists against zoo ranging from U/w, Esper, and Grixis to NLU and the matchup just seems unfavorable.
UBRGrixis Control
I think permission is viable around a sufficiently good toolbox or card advantage engine, like Bob and Mystical Teachings, or might be close to viable (It might be one of the decks being edged out of the format by zoo).
Thank you good sir, I'm glad someone went and made this point, because throughout this whole thread, people have been continually repeating "Shut up, control has existed before, so it can exist now"
My EDH decks:
BRKaervek the Merciless (unfinished)BR
Control exists in other formats too, with a modern design sensibility. It's a matter of finding out which build to run, instead of relying on what was effective before. If aggro is the problem, run less permission and more removal.
The other widely played format with Modern's design sensibility is Legacy. Control does indeed thrive there but it has access to a host of cards that we do not. On the other hand, Modern Zoo and Legacy Zoo are essentially the same deck.
It's not simply a matter of just running more removal, even running 4 wrath MB doesn't suddenly make the matchup great. Control has a major lack of good card draw at the moment
Please keep in mind though, I am in no way saying that control in unplayable right now. I just wouldn't play control if I was going to a modern tournament tomorrow.
UBRGrixis Control
Yep, I'm one of those people. I was genuinely excited for Modern (this coming from a Legacy player), but all of the bannings just make me not want to invest the time or money into the format. I feel like all the top decks will just get neutered out of contention at every B&R update.
The big appeal of Modern to me is that it's eternal, just like Legacy. But it doesn't feel like an eternal format if the good cards just keep getting banned. Maybe this is how the format will get an artificial "rotation" each season? I guess I'll stick to Legacy & EDH until all the bannings settle down and the format finds its identity.
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain