I do also think it needs more discard (I'll try it with more Ideas Unbound) and a swamp.
Dread Returning the Sphinx lets you basically dredge the rest of your deck and Flame-Kin Zealot lets you win by making a horde of hasty 3/3's Zombies, I'd play both before any of those three. Also Tarmogoyf does literally nothing for this deck but take up slots, every card in the deck besides you DR targets are part of the engine.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
GGT is just a huge loss. taking a relevant card out of an extended list, and then calling it playable in modern, seems really awkward. i've adjusted my play-style further and further to try to accommodate the deck, trying new strategies (including what jhoria herself suggested), and it still doesn't work very often.
Yeah, I don't really understand how and extended list minus a relevent engine card can do well in another format with a larger cardpool. Moreover, the deck doesn't seem to gain anything really good during his transition to Modern.
Dredge/Manaless dredge should belong to Legacy/Vintage imo and I don't see it tier 1 in here.
It would have been if Modern was something like Invasion forward but for now...
It does get a few things, Ideas Unbound is a pretty good enabler, but the loss of GGT really is hurting. I've been having some good success with Magus of the Bazaar instead of Glimpse actually. Tap him before your draw step to dredge twice, and get plenty of cards into your graveyard. he's a bit slow, but my deck has Gemstone Caverns for those crazy starts, and I really enjoy using him. And he's great if you can't afford a good manapool (like me T_T)
I'm thinking about trying a Manaless Dredge list, though I'm not sure what to replace in terms of GGT and Nether Shadow... missing Ichorid too... hmmm...
I'm thinking about trying a Manaless Dredge list, though I'm not sure what to replace in terms of GGT and Nether Shadow... missing Ichorid too... hmmm...
Cabal Therapy is in Judgement which is not part of the Modern Card Pool. I honestly wouldn't try Manaless Dredge, its slower than Mana Dredge in Legacy so it will be slower than Mana Dredge in Modern and Modern Dredge is already pretty slow since you don't have things like Breakthrough and Careful Study.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Cabal Therapy is in Judgement which is not part of the Modern Card Pool. I honestly wouldn't try Manaless Dredge, its slower than Mana Dredge in Legacy so it will be slower than Mana Dredge in Modern and Modern Dredge is already pretty slow since you don't have things like Breakthrough and Careful Study.
I have played dredge for a long time. It has been my favorite and "go-to" deck since its inception. I started playing dredge during its brief stint in RAV TSP standard, and I followed it to extended and vintage. Which leads me to my following point.
In the modern format, the deck is played similarly to how it was played in standard, using Drowned Rusalka and Magus of the Bazaar as enablers. And if we stroll back a few years this was fine. However, 3(4?) years after its inception, we are going backwards in terms of how to execute the combo. Especially without GGT.
I have tried playing the deck with 4 Rusalka and 4 Magus and its too slow and vulnerable. I have tried with 4 Rusalka and 4 Hedron Crab's, and while it performs slightly better than the Magus, it still feels very lucky when I get the combo.
It feels as though the deck is playing against me.
It is just missing the fluidity and consistency that GGT provides. And while one more dredge over Stinkweed Imp doesn't seem like that big of deal, it really is. Having to rely on dredge 6 and dredge 5 is much more stable than dredge 5 and 4 and even 3.
All that said, the deck has a few things really working in its favor. Life from the Loam has beyond amazing synergy with Bloodghast almost to the point where he is as reliable as Ichorid was. I run a pair of Phantasmagorian's and being able to discard one to the other all the time really allows me to control what is in my graveyard and what is in my hand and can set up some really explosive plays.
But at the end of the day, the deck doesn't seem consistent enough with Imp and Thug doing all the work and Magus, Rusalka, Crab being finicky and fragile engines.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Earthbound21 - I don't necessarily disagree with your end assessment, but have you tried replacing your manabase with one with shocklands and fetches (as well as the Dakmor Salvages)? It makes Hedron Crab (and to a lesser extent Bloodghast) a lot better - playing a crab and a fetch to mill for 6 on turn 2 is a great play, especially if you played a Drowned Rusalka on turn 1 and can thus start dredging immediately
I have. I agree that the Crab is better than Magus. Makes the deck faster, but hands without the crab are the same as not running him. Having to mull into a hand with Crab for consistency doesn't seem ideal.
Quote from Anharat »
Earthbound21: Hi, in your list you are imho missing the best enablers available in the format, namely Hedron Crab (with fetchces it is a beast, on of the best ways to a turn 3 kill, plus is a creature for DR), Zombie Infestation (in some builds it works wonders, in others it doesnt, nevertheless should be considered), Fatestitcher (when you run Magus, you must have these, provide the explosiveness you need).
I have always liked Glimpse the Unthinkable more than Ideas Unbound, to be honest, I prefer Tome Scour even more, because it lets you dredge turn 2 and frees a CC2 play for Magus, Glimpse or Infestation.
The version with self-milling cards is more stable than one with Magus and 'Stitcher, but I personally like this one more for its sheer inevitability - you dont kill my Magus until my next main phase? pray I dont have a 'Stitcher up my sleeve...
I find Glimpse and cards like glimpse are even less consistent than Magus/Crab/Rusalka. The creature enablers are used for their repeatability. For two mana you can get 10 cards in the GY or you can use Ideas and get 15 at best, 12 at worst.
Fatestitcher + Magus seems cool, but the one time it works doesn't make up for the nine that it doesn't.
The problem with Dredge in its current state is that it isn't a reliable turn four win (Dragonstorm) or it isn't fast enough to beat the hate (Hypergenesis).
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Hello. Just got started on playing Modern and decide with Dredge because my Legacy Dredge wasn't ready yet. I had experience against Merfolk today taking 4-2 in games. This was w/o sideboarding, but we can still beat through Mental Misstep First Game.
I have seen the discussion about Hedron Crab and I will say from my little experience that Turn 2 I would rather play a Hedron Crab than a Magus.
I had a question, has anyone tried using Visions of Beyond for their deck? I have no where near any experience some people have with this deck.
Hello. Just got started on playing Modern and decide with Dredge because my Legacy Dredge wasn't ready yet. I had experience against Merfolk today taking 4-2 in games. This was w/o sideboarding, but we can still beat through Mental Misstep First Game.
I have seen the discussion about Hedron Crab and I will say from my little experience that Turn 2 I would rather play a Hedron Crab than a Magus.
I had a question, has anyone tried using Visions of Beyond for their deck? I have no where near any experience some people have with this deck.
From my experience with Legacy Dredge and Standard Psuedo-Dredge, Visions is pretty win-more. By the time 20 cards are in the 'yard, you're dredging hard.
@simminaboutphi, you only have 6 dredgers, when ideally you should have about 8-12. I would run at least a few Golgari Thugs to even everything out, otherwise you'll be getting quite a few dead Hedrons, etc. I usually only run 2 Dread Return targets: Flake-kin Zealot, and Iona. What made you choose not to run the Zealots?
I've been having a lot of success with Fatesticher, I never even knew it existed, but it's crazy useful with Magus of the Bazaar, and even with Drowned Rusalka.
Right now, my deck looks like this (manabase is crap, I know, but I can't afford anything better. Ideally, add in fetches and Shock lands)
No Dread return (so no efficient Zombies), no efficient Dredge. No. Why would they ban a deck that's maybe Tier 1.5 at best? God damn this has me pissed. I don't run Modern Dredge, but I love the deck because it's Difficult and hate vulnerable, meaning no matter how powerful- it will never be degenerate.
Their point was that with it being a threat, it reduced deck construction space by putting a single deck hate card requirement in any meta that was likely to encourage dredge.
Less freedom to design decks means a less healthy format, and just by existing dredge as it was needed to be taken into account or you'd randomly get wrecked, which is no fun. I'm sad, and will be working to get something resembling dredge working in Modern, but it won't end up looking anything like traditional dredge thanks to this.
Well gents, it's been fun Dredging with you. I guess we'll be seeing each other when they unban Dread Return and Troll.
ps i thought this was funny: "The last turn-three deck that remained was Dredge. While Golgari Grave-Troll was banned, we found that Dredge was still very capable of turn-three kills."
I'd love to see the list they used to make that assessment, seeing as how getting this deck down under Turn 4 at the BEST has been the focus of this thread.
To be fair they've had a lot of time and manpower dedicated to it, we've had two pages of posts in how long? Not much of a hivemind here hehe. I trust their testing.
To be fair they've had a lot of time and manpower dedicated to it, we've had two pages of posts in how long? Not much of a hivemind here hehe. I trust their testing.
Well, Dredge is pretty tried and true, get stuff in graveyard>Dread Return. I'm sure the guys in this thread have been playing Dredge just as much as the testers, as they have to test other decks as well.
I have to admit I saw this coming. I had a list built that I considered somewhat suboptimal and was routinely managing to DR an Iona on turn two or three. Also was able to kill turn three a fair few times with FKZ...although, I was using Burning Inquiry as a kind of silly Ancestral Recall. Man, that card was sick.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Im looking forward to at least unbanning GGT for a start.
PS: Sorry for the lack of updates on both this thread and comments, but I recently returned from Army camp training for the past two weeks.
And for those guys here who said this deck kills average turn 6, you are playing the deck wrong. I have tried out more than enough times of my version of it, less 1 Iona maindeck for 1 more Ideas Unbound and it averages turn 4 kills 60% of the time, 20% turn 3 and 20% turn 5.
As I said, the trick is to Dread Return the right targets, sometimes even Drowned Rusalka. And learn your stack well with Bloodghasts triggers, Hedron Crab triggers and Drowned Rusalka.
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1. press ctrl+f
2. then type 6 or 9
3. Scroll Back here
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Dread Returning the Sphinx lets you basically dredge the rest of your deck and Flame-Kin Zealot lets you win by making a horde of hasty 3/3's Zombies, I'd play both before any of those three. Also Tarmogoyf does literally nothing for this deck but take up slots, every card in the deck besides you DR targets are part of the engine.
Yeah, I don't really understand how and extended list minus a relevent engine card can do well in another format with a larger cardpool. Moreover, the deck doesn't seem to gain anything really good during his transition to Modern.
Dredge/Manaless dredge should belong to Legacy/Vintage imo and I don't see it tier 1 in here.
It would have been if Modern was something like Invasion forward but for now...
I'm thinking about trying a Manaless Dredge list, though I'm not sure what to replace in terms of GGT and Nether Shadow... missing Ichorid too... hmmm...
Cabal Therapy is in Judgement which is not part of the Modern Card Pool. I honestly wouldn't try Manaless Dredge, its slower than Mana Dredge in Legacy so it will be slower than Mana Dredge in Modern and Modern Dredge is already pretty slow since you don't have things like Breakthrough and Careful Study.
Ah. Didn't know.
In the modern format, the deck is played similarly to how it was played in standard, using Drowned Rusalka and Magus of the Bazaar as enablers. And if we stroll back a few years this was fine. However, 3(4?) years after its inception, we are going backwards in terms of how to execute the combo. Especially without GGT.
I have tried playing the deck with 4 Rusalka and 4 Magus and its too slow and vulnerable. I have tried with 4 Rusalka and 4 Hedron Crab's, and while it performs slightly better than the Magus, it still feels very lucky when I get the combo.
It feels as though the deck is playing against me.
It is just missing the fluidity and consistency that GGT provides. And while one more dredge over Stinkweed Imp doesn't seem like that big of deal, it really is. Having to rely on dredge 6 and dredge 5 is much more stable than dredge 5 and 4 and even 3.
All that said, the deck has a few things really working in its favor. Life from the Loam has beyond amazing synergy with Bloodghast almost to the point where he is as reliable as Ichorid was. I run a pair of Phantasmagorian's and being able to discard one to the other all the time really allows me to control what is in my graveyard and what is in my hand and can set up some really explosive plays.
But at the end of the day, the deck doesn't seem consistent enough with Imp and Thug doing all the work and Magus, Rusalka, Crab being finicky and fragile engines.
For reference this is what I am currently testing
3x Island
1x Forest
2x Flooded Grove
2x Sunken Ruins
4x River of Tears
3x Dakmor Salvage
2x Yavimaya Coast
2x Underground River
4x Ideas Unbound
4x Bridge from Below
3x Dread Return
2x Life from the Loam
Dudes
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
4x Drowned Rusalka
4x Magus of the Bazaar
4x Narcomoeba
4x Bloodghast
2x Phantasmagorian
2x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
What about Archive Trap instead of, or in addition to Glimpse the Unthinkable?Disregard that, RTFC
I have. I agree that the Crab is better than Magus. Makes the deck faster, but hands without the crab are the same as not running him. Having to mull into a hand with Crab for consistency doesn't seem ideal.
I find Glimpse and cards like glimpse are even less consistent than Magus/Crab/Rusalka. The creature enablers are used for their repeatability. For two mana you can get 10 cards in the GY or you can use Ideas and get 15 at best, 12 at worst.
Fatestitcher + Magus seems cool, but the one time it works doesn't make up for the nine that it doesn't.
The problem with Dredge in its current state is that it isn't a reliable turn four win (Dragonstorm) or it isn't fast enough to beat the hate (Hypergenesis).
I have seen the discussion about Hedron Crab and I will say from my little experience that Turn 2 I would rather play a Hedron Crab than a Magus.
I had a question, has anyone tried using Visions of Beyond for their deck? I have no where near any experience some people have with this deck.
From my experience with Legacy Dredge and Standard Psuedo-Dredge, Visions is pretty win-more. By the time 20 cards are in the 'yard, you're dredging hard.
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1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Hedron Crab
4 Drowned Rusalka
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Ideas Unbound
4 Bloodghast
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
1 Bogardan Hellkite
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Pithing Needle
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Darkblast
4 Relic of Progenitus
Bogardan Hellkite could be Phantasmagorian.
Also, food for thought: Rotting Rats.
Do as no one does.
Don't put down.
Push up.
I've been having a lot of success with Fatesticher, I never even knew it existed, but it's crazy useful with Magus of the Bazaar, and even with Drowned Rusalka.
Right now, my deck looks like this (manabase is crap, I know, but I can't afford anything better. Ideally, add in fetches and Shock lands)
3 Tendo Ice Bridge
8 Island
3 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Rusalka
4 Magus of the Bazaar
4 Fatestitcher
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
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No Dread return (so no efficient Zombies), no efficient Dredge. No. Why would they ban a deck that's maybe Tier 1.5 at best? God damn this has me pissed. I don't run Modern Dredge, but I love the deck because it's Difficult and hate vulnerable, meaning no matter how powerful- it will never be degenerate.
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Less freedom to design decks means a less healthy format, and just by existing dredge as it was needed to be taken into account or you'd randomly get wrecked, which is no fun. I'm sad, and will be working to get something resembling dredge working in Modern, but it won't end up looking anything like traditional dredge thanks to this.
ps i thought this was funny: "The last turn-three deck that remained was Dredge. While Golgari Grave-Troll was banned, we found that Dredge was still very capable of turn-three kills."
I'd love to see the list they used to make that assessment, seeing as how getting this deck down under Turn 4 at the BEST has been the focus of this thread.
Well, Dredge is pretty tried and true, get stuff in graveyard>Dread Return. I'm sure the guys in this thread have been playing Dredge just as much as the testers, as they have to test other decks as well.
MY CUBE!
EDH Decks
Tomorrow, The Pitcher's Name
Combo is good for the format. Period. Keeps it healthy and interesting.
I could always play other sacrifice outlets like Viscera Seer and Drowned Rusalka, but
No
They had to ban both GGT and Dread Return.
Im looking forward to at least unbanning GGT for a start.
PS: Sorry for the lack of updates on both this thread and comments, but I recently returned from Army camp training for the past two weeks.
And for those guys here who said this deck kills average turn 6, you are playing the deck wrong. I have tried out more than enough times of my version of it, less 1 Iona maindeck for 1 more Ideas Unbound and it averages turn 4 kills 60% of the time, 20% turn 3 and 20% turn 5.
As I said, the trick is to Dread Return the right targets, sometimes even Drowned Rusalka. And learn your stack well with Bloodghasts triggers, Hedron Crab triggers and Drowned Rusalka.
2. then type 6 or 9
3. Scroll Back here
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Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Should we make a Graveyard for the decks killed/made comatose by this BRILLIANT banned list?
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