The problem is, the players were not the first to say this, it was Wotc saying they wanted to ban all turn 1,2 and 3 combo wins. Well they missed some. The speed issue is on Wotc not the players. If the company is going to make a statement, stick by it.
It's not broken like Legacy
You are right, its worse in some cases. The person you are playing against drops a nexus on turn 1, you have to find an answer now or you are dead. Nothing broken about that.
Turn 3 you tap out to an empty board of your opponent and at end of turn they flash in exarch and drop twin next turn, gg.
There are some real degenerate plays in this format, worse then in Legacy in some cases.
Personally I just want a format where all the archtypes are playable and competitive. A format where any archtype can win on any given weekend.
I can't see them banning any cards for Storm/Ascension/Shoal, the reason being those decks are just glass cannon decks, they fold to any disruption in the first 2-3 turns. The problem is the decks that would prey and on decks like Storm/Ascension/Shoal are being forced out of the Metagame. And honestly I don't think they are very rigid on their no combo before turn 4 unless its very consistent like most of the combos that are banned. Just look at legacy, there are decks that can just straight up kill you before you even get to play a land. However these decks aren't running rampant (infact most of them are pretty bad) because they are glass canons and lose to disruption.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
I can't see them banning any cards for Storm/Ascension/Shoal, the reason being those decks are just glass cannon decks, they fold to any disruption in the first 2-3 turns. The problem is the decks that would prey and on decks like Storm/Ascension/Shoal are being forced out of the Metagame. And honestly I don't think they are very rigid on their no combo before turn 4 unless its very consistent like most of the combos that are banned. Just look at legacy, there are decks that can just straight up kill you before you even get to play a land. However these decks aren't running rampant (infact most of them are pretty bad) because they are glass canons and lose to disruption.
The difference is that Legacy has Force of Will. There really isn't much to do against Storm in Modern except get a lucky draw. You could run a ton of Thoughtseize effects, but then you are in black, and black is not where you want to be in this format.
The difference is that Legacy has Force of Will. There really isn't much to do against Storm in Modern except get a lucky draw. You could run a ton of Thoughtseize effects, but then you are in black, and black is not where you want to be in this format.
Storm in Legacy also has better draw Engines, Tutoring Capabilities, more cantrips, better protection, and doesn't need as high of a storm count. Not having FoW is definitely a factor in Modern but combo decks aren't nearly as consistent as they are in Legacy, hence they are glass cannons.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
You are right, its worse in some cases. The person you are playing against drops a nexus on turn 1, you have to find an answer now or you are dead. Nothing broken about that.
Turn 3 you tap out to an empty board of your opponent and at end of turn they flash in exarch and drop twin next turn, gg.
There are some real degenerate plays in this format, worse then in Legacy in some cases.
Personally I just want a format where all the archtypes are playable and competitive. A format where any archtype can win on any given weekend.
Yup, it's worse than legacy. Because Stoneblade ISN'T the vast majority of Legacy right now?
You're talking about Infect Shoal, right? It does have a messed up godhand, yes. But unless you're playing 12post, I'd assume you stock 1 cmc removal, some sort of counterspell, or hand disruption. I would say it needs a ban, but the deck is stupid unstable, with like a 12.5% chance of pulling all 3 in the opener.
So...you're complaining about a play by DeceiverTwin that standard players can handle without bannings? Lolnope.
WotC shouldn't just ban combo cards. That would be stupid, and hurt the format. Ban some 12post piece, re-introduce control, and let THEM cripple the Combo decks. Banning Glimmerpost or Vesuva means: Less 12post, more control, less combo, which means a healthier meta.
(Seriously though, all this discussion belongs in the "Bannings" thread)
You know what would rock against a lot of Modern combo decks?
Modern Soul Sisters. Seriously.
Just one Soul Warden or equivalent on the board stops Exarch from winning with the Twin. Two of them shut down the infinite Pestermite option. Ascension/Swath decks looking to win with big ol' Grapeshots will have a lot harder of a time getting there when you've got twice the life they were planning on dealing with.
Furthermore, the deck can have a pretty nuts opening just as an aggro deck: turn one Serra Ascendant, turn two Martyr of Sands, sac the martyr for 12 or 15 life, bash for 6 and gain 6 more... hello, I'm at 41 life and you're at 14. Let's race. Not to mention that Ajani's Pridemate can make Tarmogoyf look downright small sometimes.
I've got a Modern-legal Soul Sisters deck that I've played at a couple of minor Legacy events; it's undefeated in seven matches and even managed to take down a legitimate, hardcore Legacy BUG deck with all original dual lands, FoWs, Bob, Goyf, the works. I don't see any reason why the archetype shouldn't find success in Modern, and as a nice foil to a lot of the actual/potential combo decks that seek to win by attacking the life total rather than the library.
Yup, it's worse than legacy. Because Stoneblade ISN'T the vast majority of Legacy right now?
You're talking about Infect Shoal, right? It does have a messed up godhand, yes. But unless you're playing 12post, I'd assume you stock 1 cmc removal, some sort of counterspell, or hand disruption. I would say it needs a ban, but the deck is stupid unstable, with like a 12.5% chance of pulling all 3 in the opener.
So...you're complaining about a play by DeceiverTwin that standard players can handle without bannings? Lolnope.
WotC shouldn't just ban combo cards. That would be stupid, and hurt the format. Ban some 12post piece, re-introduce control, and let THEM cripple the Combo decks. Banning Glimmerpost or Vesuva means: Less 12post, more control, less combo, which means a healthier meta.
(Seriously though, all this discussion belongs in the "Bannings" thread)
Yeah just because something can be handled in Standard doesnt mean it can so easily in Modern. You need to play different cards then just those to handle one certain deck like in Standard. (to be fair, Standard has like 5 tier 1 decks) In Modern cards that deal with one combo deck, doesnt always deal with another combo deck. You need to run totally different hate cards. So yeah, just because a certain combo is being played in Standard and is being kept somewhat in check (mainly due to the small quantity of tier 1 decks) Can be more powerful in a format that you need to have hate for more types of decks. Its one of the good things and one of the bad things about the format at this point in time.
If everyone would just innovate and work on problem match-ups instead of crying about how unfair something is the format would be fine.
I like how people justify their points by pointing at legacy and saying "this doesn't happen in Legacy because we have FoW". Come off it already and look at your logic. I watched Dredge win a SCG open final without casting a spell. Then we have 1000 or so StoneBlade decks running around.
Oh yeah and Brainstorm is a fair card too?
The format will only grow when its players decide to grow as innovators. If we all cry because we can't play our pet deck nothing will get better.
I like the format and am willing to try cards that fight the problem cards instead of waiting on WotC to make good decisions.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
It's tough to innovate when there are such oppressive decks like 12post in the format which you have really very few ways of interacting with outside of discard. I think Madding hit this head on. It's ridiculous between the T2 storm and the T4 Emrakul, there aren't really many options for playing things besides degenerate combos.
I'm enjoying the format. The one issue is that the sort of disruption sweet that beats 12post isn't very effective against other forms of combo. 12post can cast 1 spell per turn and win. 12 post needs lots of lands to win. Other combo decks can win off of 1 or 2 lands. So the issue is that we have several powerful archetypes that you need to answer and the disruption package against each needs to be substantially different.
I've found discard and Sadistic Sacrament (especially this) to be good vs both combo of most varieties and 12 post. Sometimes it's not fast enough but I don't think I should be able to win every game...
i am not; because i am restricted to running a certain deck because i will not spend THAT MUCH on a deck (tarmogoyf and shock lands are not fun cards to play with, they are straight-forward and dumb and you need alot of them)
most people i talk to would like modern if not for the exhorbent price tag.
wizards ought to come out with a promo set where they spam out billions of goyf's bobs and shocklands at common. THAT would make modern better.
i am not; because i am restricted to running a certain deck because i will not spend THAT MUCH on a deck (tarmogoyf and shock lands are not fun cards to play with, they are straight-forward and dumb and you need alot of them)
most people i talk to would like modern if not for the exhorbent price tag.
wizards ought to come out with a promo set where they spam out billions of goyf's bobs and shocklands at common. THAT would make modern better.
You can be competitive in Modern without spending a lot of money.
That being said, its an eternal format, its not going to be cheap to play. Just like Legacy and Vintage.
You can't be competitive in Magic without spending a lot of money.
Fixed that for you. Complaints about price aren't going to fix anything, and wizards already tried mass reprints once and failed miserably (Chronicles). The sooner people realize that playing competitive magic costs money, and deal with that fact, the better off they'll be. Sure, I think they'll reprint stuff, but it isn't going to be en masse like the people who thought modern was going to be a "cheap eternal format" (which is a massive oxymoron).
EDIT: I've found that it's relatively easy to build with few shocklands. For example, my Grixis control list uses fetches + only one of each relevant shock, and the manabase is very stable.
Please dont do that, I meant what I said. There are decks in the format that can be competitive on MTGO or local tournaments that are cheap. Now if you are playing against pros every weekend, you better be spending money to be competitive.
A Tier 1 Affinity list can be built for about $300. Any other type of Tier 1 modern deck that I know of will cost you a bit more though.
However, saying that playing with Goyf and shocklands "isn't fun" because you don't want to spend the money on them is a little ridiculous. There's probably a reason that every decklist you see in the top 8 of any tournament runs shocklands (except Affinity).
A Tier 1 Affinity list can be built for about $300. Any other type of Tier 1 modern deck that I know of will cost you a bit more though.
However, saying that playing with Goyf and shocklands "isn't fun" because you don't want to spend the money on them is a little ridiculous. There's probably a reason that every decklist you see in the top 8 of any tournament runs shocklands (except Affinity).
It is because fetchlands exist. Without fetches, shocks wouldn't be nearly as great and could easily be replaced with other dual lands.
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The problem is, the players were not the first to say this, it was Wotc saying they wanted to ban all turn 1,2 and 3 combo wins. Well they missed some. The speed issue is on Wotc not the players. If the company is going to make a statement, stick by it.
You are right, its worse in some cases. The person you are playing against drops a nexus on turn 1, you have to find an answer now or you are dead. Nothing broken about that.
Turn 3 you tap out to an empty board of your opponent and at end of turn they flash in exarch and drop twin next turn, gg.
There are some real degenerate plays in this format, worse then in Legacy in some cases.
Personally I just want a format where all the archtypes are playable and competitive. A format where any archtype can win on any given weekend.
The difference is that Legacy has Force of Will. There really isn't much to do against Storm in Modern except get a lucky draw. You could run a ton of Thoughtseize effects, but then you are in black, and black is not where you want to be in this format.
why not? 20 of the decks that won 6 or more matches at Philly had Thoughtseize
Storm in Legacy also has better draw Engines, Tutoring Capabilities, more cantrips, better protection, and doesn't need as high of a storm count. Not having FoW is definitely a factor in Modern but combo decks aren't nearly as consistent as they are in Legacy, hence they are glass cannons.
Yup, it's worse than legacy. Because Stoneblade ISN'T the vast majority of Legacy right now?
You're talking about Infect Shoal, right? It does have a messed up godhand, yes. But unless you're playing 12post, I'd assume you stock 1 cmc removal, some sort of counterspell, or hand disruption. I would say it needs a ban, but the deck is stupid unstable, with like a 12.5% chance of pulling all 3 in the opener.
So...you're complaining about a play by DeceiverTwin that standard players can handle without bannings? Lolnope.
WotC shouldn't just ban combo cards. That would be stupid, and hurt the format. Ban some 12post piece, re-introduce control, and let THEM cripple the Combo decks. Banning Glimmerpost or Vesuva means: Less 12post, more control, less combo, which means a healthier meta.
(Seriously though, all this discussion belongs in the "Bannings" thread)
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Modern Soul Sisters. Seriously.
Just one Soul Warden or equivalent on the board stops Exarch from winning with the Twin. Two of them shut down the infinite Pestermite option. Ascension/Swath decks looking to win with big ol' Grapeshots will have a lot harder of a time getting there when you've got twice the life they were planning on dealing with.
Furthermore, the deck can have a pretty nuts opening just as an aggro deck: turn one Serra Ascendant, turn two Martyr of Sands, sac the martyr for 12 or 15 life, bash for 6 and gain 6 more... hello, I'm at 41 life and you're at 14. Let's race. Not to mention that Ajani's Pridemate can make Tarmogoyf look downright small sometimes.
I've got a Modern-legal Soul Sisters deck that I've played at a couple of minor Legacy events; it's undefeated in seven matches and even managed to take down a legitimate, hardcore Legacy BUG deck with all original dual lands, FoWs, Bob, Goyf, the works. I don't see any reason why the archetype shouldn't find success in Modern, and as a nice foil to a lot of the actual/potential combo decks that seek to win by attacking the life total rather than the library.
Yeah just because something can be handled in Standard doesnt mean it can so easily in Modern. You need to play different cards then just those to handle one certain deck like in Standard. (to be fair, Standard has like 5 tier 1 decks) In Modern cards that deal with one combo deck, doesnt always deal with another combo deck. You need to run totally different hate cards. So yeah, just because a certain combo is being played in Standard and is being kept somewhat in check (mainly due to the small quantity of tier 1 decks) Can be more powerful in a format that you need to have hate for more types of decks. Its one of the good things and one of the bad things about the format at this point in time.
I like how people justify their points by pointing at legacy and saying "this doesn't happen in Legacy because we have FoW". Come off it already and look at your logic. I watched Dredge win a SCG open final without casting a spell. Then we have 1000 or so StoneBlade decks running around.
Oh yeah and Brainstorm is a fair card too?
The format will only grow when its players decide to grow as innovators. If we all cry because we can't play our pet deck nothing will get better.
I like the format and am willing to try cards that fight the problem cards instead of waiting on WotC to make good decisions.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Legacy:WUBG Jace Rock
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Sig by: heroes of the plane studios
most people i talk to would like modern if not for the exhorbent price tag.
wizards ought to come out with a promo set where they spam out billions of goyf's bobs and shocklands at common. THAT would make modern better.
:symu::symr::symg: ANIMAR :symu::symr::symg:
You can be competitive in Modern without spending a lot of money.
That being said, its an eternal format, its not going to be cheap to play. Just like Legacy and Vintage.
Fixed that for you. Complaints about price aren't going to fix anything, and wizards already tried mass reprints once and failed miserably (Chronicles). The sooner people realize that playing competitive magic costs money, and deal with that fact, the better off they'll be. Sure, I think they'll reprint stuff, but it isn't going to be en masse like the people who thought modern was going to be a "cheap eternal format" (which is a massive oxymoron).
EDIT: I've found that it's relatively easy to build with few shocklands. For example, my Grixis control list uses fetches + only one of each relevant shock, and the manabase is very stable.
UBRGW T.E.S.
UUUSpiral Tide
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
EDH:
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
However, saying that playing with Goyf and shocklands "isn't fun" because you don't want to spend the money on them is a little ridiculous. There's probably a reason that every decklist you see in the top 8 of any tournament runs shocklands (except Affinity).
It is because fetchlands exist. Without fetches, shocks wouldn't be nearly as great and could easily be replaced with other dual lands.