SFM isn't just a problem for aggro. It's a foregone conclusion. This is why Tempered Steel wasn't playable until post-SFM banning in Standard and why Zoo is a shell of its former self in Legacy. Stoneforge laughs in the face of aggressive strategies as she effortlessly strikes down every Lhurgoyf, Nacatl, and Human Knight that you throw at her.
OK, so Ancient Grudge is a 2-color narrow solution to half of Stoneforge's problem, but if it's in the format then Stoneforge is automatically fine? Get out of here. 2-mana 2-for-1s that cheat mana costs are obviously problematic.
There are plenty of other cards that deal with SFM. Spell snare, maelstrom pulse, tin street hooligan, bant charm, nature's claim... the list goes on. There's no doubt that stoneforge mystic is very good, but I honestly don't see a problem with having a 4/4 vigilance lifelink on turn 3 in a format where it's entirely possible to be dead to 16 2/1 haste goblins or your opponent is cheating emrakuls into play by then.
I think that card damaged control archetypes more than it ever helped them.
?????
Planeswalkers have done nothing productive for this game, outside of being a somewhat successful marketing scheme.
that's nice, but control in modern is still lacking a good card advantage engine. The closest thing to a control deck in modern right now is Jund due to dark confidant, bloodbraid elf and all of its removal and disruption, and it still doesn't have many good matchups against the field.
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Currently playing:
Type 2: UW U/W Stone-Blade (24-4-1 R.I.P.) UW UW Caw-Blade UW UB U/B Control UB GR Valakut Ramp GR
Unbanning one broken, degenerate product of engineering stupidity to battle another is incorrect.
Someone lost a few too many games to cawblade
I'm not here to advocate for a SFM unban; I honestly don't really care and I don't think the format really needs her for any reason. She just wouldn't be broken. There are too many decks that simply don't care about a batterskull.
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Currently playing:
Type 2: UW U/W Stone-Blade (24-4-1 R.I.P.) UW UW Caw-Blade UW UB U/B Control UB GR Valakut Ramp GR
How can you call SFM degenerate when there are so many ways to deal with equips/creatures?
SFM doesn't kill aggro unless aggro lets it. I mean, it's not like aggro can't use Qasali Pridemage to destroy the equips. Or Clique in response to you putting it into play. Or just bolt the SFM. Or Krosan Grip it. Or any of the other host of answers. If you've ever played with the card, you'd know it's not an instant win against Zoo or any other aggro deck. It helps, but you still have to play Magic to get there.
In the current environment, SFM would be laughed at. You'd drop it, and they'd just ritual away and combo in your face.
Bottom line, your justification for calling SFM degenerate has no credibility because you obviously have not played with the card. It's a fair card, in a format full of people trying to do unfair things.
EDIT: Erm, seriously, are we really comparing Emrakul and Batterskull? This is laughable - one ends the game on the spot, the other can be answered by a whole host of cards.
First of all, the "But you can just do this!" argument is a fallacious. It tries to justify something broken by implying that perfect answers exist and will always be open to you. Except Magic is a game of variance. This variance means that you will not always have this answer when you need it. Degenerate tutors, however, such as Stoneforge Mystic, cheat this variance. Both by always having what it tutors for, but always being able to have what you need it to tutor for while completely circumventing variance. This cheating of variance leads to an imbalance. They can find their tutor target a lot more often than you'll see your answer. "But you can just do this!" is incorrect because the degenerate tutor doesn't play by the same rules you do.
Second, your accusation of "But you just don't understand" is also wrong. I don't have to had fired a gun to know that if I put a pistol to your temple and pull the trigger you will die.
I'm sorry I had to be so morbid, but I really want to drive how wrong that is home.
How can you call SFM degenerate when there are so many ways to deal with equips/creatures?
SFM doesn't kill aggro unless aggro lets it. I mean, it's not like aggro can't use Qasali Pridemage to destroy the equips. Or Clique in response to you putting it into play. Or just bolt the SFM. Or Krosan Grip it. Or any of the other host of answers. If you've ever played with the card, you'd know it's not an instant win against Zoo or any other aggro deck. It helps, but you still have to play Magic to get there.
In the current environment, SFM would be laughed at. You'd drop it, and they'd just ritual away and combo in your face.
Bottom line, your justification for calling SFM degenerate has no credibility because you obviously have not played with the card. It's a fair card, in a format full of people trying to do unfair things.
EDIT: Erm, seriously, are we really comparing Emrakul and Batterskull? This is laughable - one ends the game on the spot, the other can be answered by a whole host of cards.
Exactly, the format, as is, would not change anything other than maybe some UW control deck or some WX midrange deck becoming viable.
I don't really understand how you can look at a format full of decks like Splinter Twin, Hive Mind, Storm the Warrens, etc and say Stoneforge Mystic would be problematic. Those decks, especially Hive Mind and Storm the Warrens have extremely narrow answers and are very difficult to interact with outside of using hand disruption. Even at that juncture, they can dig for what they need and win anyway if you don't provide a fast enough clock.
The power level of stoneforge mystic as one card is quite a bit higher than any individual card those combo decks use, which I suppose is why stoneforge mystic is seen as unfair. But it has so many broad and easily accessed answers in all colors that I'm not seeing why it would be a problem in the format, especially without free counterspells worth running.
Exactly, the format, as is, would not change anything other than maybe some UW control deck or some WX midrange deck becoming viable.
I would love the play the UW midrange deck I played last extended season again, that deck was a blast.
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Type 2: UW U/W Stone-Blade (24-4-1 R.I.P.) UW UW Caw-Blade UW UB U/B Control UB GR Valakut Ramp GR
First of all, the "But you can just do this!" argument is a fallacious. It tries to justify something broken by basing an argument on the assumption that you'll always have the perfect answer at the perfect moment to put a stop to degenerate strategies. Magic is a game of chance. Degenerate strategies such as Stoneforge Mystic cheat this randomness with inevitability, whereas the person whom is forced to answer her is unable to do so himself. This leads to an imbalance. "But you can just do this!" is incorrect because the degenerate strategy doesn't play by the same rules you do. SFM makes her own rules.
Second, your accusation of "But you just don't understand" is also wrong. I don't have to had fired a gun to know that if I put a pistol to your temple and pull the trigger you will die.
I'm sorry I had to be so morbid, but I really want to drive how wrong that is home.
To summarize, SFM is degenerate because...it forces decks to have answers for your opponents creatures/artifacts. Or you have to just beat them fast enough with combo. In other words, you have to take into account what the other guy is doing, and build/play accordingly. This sounds surprisingly like, you know, actually playing Magic. Let's face it. If you're an aggro deck that can't deal with your opponent's creatures/artifacts, you're not going to win many games. On the flip side, yes, you can't expect to draw your answer all the time. That's part of the game. Should all creatures be banned because you might not draw removal? Should all combo decks be banned because you might not draw your hate in time?
Secondly, your second example is ridiculous. Your argument is backed by false claims such as "SFM beats Zoo and all aggro decks". If you had played with the card, you'd realise how wrong your claim is. I've played with SFM for almost 2 years, long before Batterskull/Cawblade. I know for a fact it doesn't beat all aggro strategies on it's own. Yet you, with no playtesting experience, somehow know better?
It's like someone claiming a deck is good/bad without ever playing it. Their claims would have no credibility because they have zero playtesting experience. To use your example, it's like someone claiming that shooting people in the head doesn't kill them, and that they don't need to actually try it to know.
To summarize, SFM is degenerate because...it forces decks to have answers for your opponents creatures/artifacts. Or you have to just beat them fast enough with combo. In other words, you have to take into account what the other guy is doing, and build/play accordingly. This sounds surprisingly like, you know, actually playing Magic. Let's face it. If you're an aggro deck that can't deal with your opponent's creatures/artifacts, you're not going to win many games. On the flip side, yes, you can't expect to draw your answer all the time. That's part of the game. Should all creatures be banned because you might not draw removal? Should all combo decks be banned because you might not draw your hate in time?
^This. I don't care one way or another about SFM. This philosophy needs to be remembered and taken to heart by anyone and everyone before they call to have something banned/unbanned. People's definitions of "broken" are becoming increasingly skewed.
Decks like CawBlade and Stoneblade do indeed invalidate aggressive creature strategies. Stoneforge Mystic doesn't do it by herself, but she is very much the enabler in the strategy. She grabs the specific answer the deck needs to answer whatever the Zoo player may be doing, whether it be with Lifelink or protection from the core color of your build or the ability to tap out every turn for bombs, swing, and then untap your lands to leave mana open for answers. This is why Zoo and Merfolk weren't doing well in Legacy (this past weekend notwithstanding) and why Tempered Steel did poorly in Standard until SFM and Jace were banned.
Furthermore, you're trying to simplify my argument into something asinine when it's not at all. How can you possibly believe that you can just side in a couple of Grips and suddenly you can just Grip the Equipment every time it comes down? Because that's what the "You can just do this" argument implies. That you can just do this. You can just do that. But you can't just do that. If you do, great, but if you don't, you lose.
This is how Stoneforge cheats variance. Stoneforge player has exactly what he needs to end the game quickly and without resistance. If you don't have exactly what you need to answer that, you lose. You have no way of resisting him because he has the protection from whatever or Lifelink to prevent you from racing. Your blockers can do nothing but just watch while the sword-carrier waltzes right past into the red zone, unmolested. You probably can't target the creature with anything in your deck. If not, then chances are you can't target it with anything of the color your creature removal probably is.
You don't have to have had played the deck to see how unfair this is.
But, granted, having that need to answer things is indeed a core component of the game. But the extent of how quickly the game spirals out of control in favor of the Stoneforge player makes it so much more important to have that answer. That Krosan Grip or Smash to Smithereens. This is where you have to fight through variance. Variance that your opponent completely circumvented to find their nut draw.
He doesn't even run firespout on the main.
Fact is, running 2 colors with 12 colorless mana is difficult. This means you often can't have access to red mana on turn 3.
If they ban vesuva or glimmerpost then firespout would go to the main deck (if the deck is still decent enough to compete).
It's not difficult at all, and I have access to red mana by turn 3 in about 95% of the games I play with breachpost. When you run 4 groves, 1 stomping ground, a mountain and 4 gruul signets, that's 10 cards that give you red mana out of 60. That gives you a very good chance to have red mana in your opening hand, and if you don't have a red mana source on the board by turn 3 it's because either you don't want to yet or you got the worst hand/draws ever.
Actually decks like Zoo walk all over Stoneblade decks, especially in a format without free countermagic and they can't tap out for SFM and still protect it.
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Decks like CawBlade and Stoneblade do indeed invalidate aggressive creature strategies. Stoneforge Mystic doesn't do it by herself, but she is very much the enabler in the strategy. She grabs the specific answer the deck needs to answer whatever the Zoo player may be doing, whether it be with Lifelink or protection from the core color of your build or the ability to tap out every turn for bombs, swing, and then untap your lands to leave mana open for answers. This is why Zoo and Merfolk weren't doing well in Legacy (this past weekend notwithstanding) and why Tempered Steel did poorly in Standard until SFM and Jace were banned.
Furthermore, you're trying to simplify my argument into something asinine when it's not at all. How can you possibly believe that you can just side in a couple of Grips and suddenly you can just Grip the Equipment every time it comes down? Because that's what the "You can just do this" argument implies. That you can just do this. You can just do that. But you can't just do that. If you do, great, but if you don't, you lose.
This is how Stoneforge cheats variance. Stoneforge player has exactly what he needs to end the game quickly and without resistance. If you don't have exactly what you need to answer that, you lose. You have no way of resisting him because he has the protection from whatever or Lifelink to prevent you from racing. Your blockers can do nothing but just watch while the sword-carrier waltzes right past into the red zone, unmolested. You probably can't target the creature with anything in your deck. If not, then chances are you can't target it with anything of the color your creature removal probably is.
You don't have to have had played the deck to see how unfair this is.
But, granted, having that need to answer things is indeed a core component of the game. But the extent of how quickly the game spirals out of control in favor of the Stoneforge player makes it so much more important to have that answer. That Krosan Grip or Smash to Smithereens. This is where you have to fight through variance. Variance that your opponent completely circumvented to find their nut draw.
Feathers, I think the argument he was trying to make is that all of that is okay... in a format with T4 Emrakul and storm/twin wins.
Who in their right mind would unban a known problem of the past instead of banning a known problem of the present?
That's absurd. Astoundingly absurd.
Thats why I dropped out of the bannings talk. Too many people fighting for their pet card or the card they want to abuse without thinking about the format as a whole.
There are problems with the format as it sits and somethings need to be banned, but I doubt much if anything gets unbanned until they gain some type of control over the format and slow it down some.
I sincerely doubt that SFM is going to get unbanned. Aaron Forsythe is head of R&D and responsible for unbannings. He is a notorious hater of SFM, both from a design and power level perspective. I have recently been digging through his tweets regarding Modern, individual cards, and bannings, and I found a few tweets that directly concern SFM. Let's just say that it is unlikely she is going to get off of the list anytime soon...
"I mean, Stoneforge Mystic being ridiculous didn't mean Kor were a giant mistake..."
(SunByrne) "@mtgaaron LSV rated SFM a 2.0 in his Worldwake preview, & nobody played it until there was SoFF. SFM isn't broken, the equipment is."
(Forsythe Response) "@SunByrne "Natural Order isn't broken, Progenitus is." No, Natural Order is."
Mr. Forsythe really dislikes this card and I sincerely doubt he is going to be responsible for its reintroduction into Modern. Jace, AV, and Bitterblossom are all more likely candidates for unbanning, in my opinion, based on his position towards SFM. Of course, this might be reading too much into his Tweets, but it is a better source of evidence than just pure speculation.
Bitterblossom isn't going to get unbanned yet because it does nothing against combo which was most prevalent in Philly. All BB would do (I believe) is kill all chance aggro had in modern.
Honestly SFM would be a joke in this format, but I hope it stays banned so we can possible get chrome mox, jitte, and sword of the meek back because this format needs control cards pretty badly.
Also I can pretty much say that cloudpost is getting banned. a few comments from certain high ranking RnD members sort of elude to it. Also splinter-twin is going to get hit in some way or another.
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SFM isn't just a problem for aggro. It's a foregone conclusion. This is why Tempered Steel wasn't playable until post-SFM banning in Standard and why Zoo is a shell of its former self in Legacy. Stoneforge laughs in the face of aggressive strategies as she effortlessly strikes down every Lhurgoyf, Nacatl, and Human Knight that you throw at her.
Which is unacceptable.
Abysmal.
????? that's nice, but control in modern is still lacking a good card advantage engine. The closest thing to a control deck in modern right now is Jund due to dark confidant, bloodbraid elf and all of its removal and disruption, and it still doesn't have many good matchups against the field.
Type 2:
UW U/W Stone-Blade (24-4-1 R.I.P.) UW
UW Caw-Blade UW
UB U/B Control UB
GR Valakut Ramp GR
Someone lost a few too many games to cawblade
I'm not here to advocate for a SFM unban; I honestly don't really care and I don't think the format really needs her for any reason. She just wouldn't be broken. There are too many decks that simply don't care about a batterskull.
Type 2:
UW U/W Stone-Blade (24-4-1 R.I.P.) UW
UW Caw-Blade UW
UB U/B Control UB
GR Valakut Ramp GR
These are facts, my friend. Batterskull is crackers compared to Emrakul, so unbanning its little friend won't achieve anything.
What WILL happen, however, is that we go from having one problem child to two.
SFM doesn't kill aggro unless aggro lets it. I mean, it's not like aggro can't use Qasali Pridemage to destroy the equips. Or Clique in response to you putting it into play. Or just bolt the SFM. Or Krosan Grip it. Or any of the other host of answers. If you've ever played with the card, you'd know it's not an instant win against Zoo or any other aggro deck. It helps, but you still have to play Magic to get there.
In the current environment, SFM would be laughed at. You'd drop it, and they'd just ritual away and combo in your face.
Bottom line, your justification for calling SFM degenerate has no credibility because you obviously have not played with the card. It's a fair card, in a format full of people trying to do unfair things.
EDIT: Erm, seriously, are we really comparing Emrakul and Batterskull? This is laughable - one ends the game on the spot, the other can be answered by a whole host of cards.
First of all, the "But you can just do this!" argument is a fallacious. It tries to justify something broken by implying that perfect answers exist and will always be open to you. Except Magic is a game of variance. This variance means that you will not always have this answer when you need it. Degenerate tutors, however, such as Stoneforge Mystic, cheat this variance. Both by always having what it tutors for, but always being able to have what you need it to tutor for while completely circumventing variance. This cheating of variance leads to an imbalance. They can find their tutor target a lot more often than you'll see your answer. "But you can just do this!" is incorrect because the degenerate tutor doesn't play by the same rules you do.
Second, your accusation of "But you just don't understand" is also wrong. I don't have to had fired a gun to know that if I put a pistol to your temple and pull the trigger you will die.
I'm sorry I had to be so morbid, but I really want to drive how wrong that is home.
Edit done.
Exactly, the format, as is, would not change anything other than maybe some UW control deck or some WX midrange deck becoming viable.
The power level of stoneforge mystic as one card is quite a bit higher than any individual card those combo decks use, which I suppose is why stoneforge mystic is seen as unfair. But it has so many broad and easily accessed answers in all colors that I'm not seeing why it would be a problem in the format, especially without free counterspells worth running. I would love the play the UW midrange deck I played last extended season again, that deck was a blast.
Type 2:
UW U/W Stone-Blade (24-4-1 R.I.P.) UW
UW Caw-Blade UW
UB U/B Control UB
GR Valakut Ramp GR
To summarize, SFM is degenerate because...it forces decks to have answers for your opponents creatures/artifacts. Or you have to just beat them fast enough with combo. In other words, you have to take into account what the other guy is doing, and build/play accordingly. This sounds surprisingly like, you know, actually playing Magic. Let's face it. If you're an aggro deck that can't deal with your opponent's creatures/artifacts, you're not going to win many games. On the flip side, yes, you can't expect to draw your answer all the time. That's part of the game. Should all creatures be banned because you might not draw removal? Should all combo decks be banned because you might not draw your hate in time?
Secondly, your second example is ridiculous. Your argument is backed by false claims such as "SFM beats Zoo and all aggro decks". If you had played with the card, you'd realise how wrong your claim is. I've played with SFM for almost 2 years, long before Batterskull/Cawblade. I know for a fact it doesn't beat all aggro strategies on it's own. Yet you, with no playtesting experience, somehow know better?
It's like someone claiming a deck is good/bad without ever playing it. Their claims would have no credibility because they have zero playtesting experience. To use your example, it's like someone claiming that shooting people in the head doesn't kill them, and that they don't need to actually try it to know.
^This. I don't care one way or another about SFM. This philosophy needs to be remembered and taken to heart by anyone and everyone before they call to have something banned/unbanned. People's definitions of "broken" are becoming increasingly skewed.
Furthermore, you're trying to simplify my argument into something asinine when it's not at all. How can you possibly believe that you can just side in a couple of Grips and suddenly you can just Grip the Equipment every time it comes down? Because that's what the "You can just do this" argument implies. That you can just do this. You can just do that. But you can't just do that. If you do, great, but if you don't, you lose.
This is how Stoneforge cheats variance. Stoneforge player has exactly what he needs to end the game quickly and without resistance. If you don't have exactly what you need to answer that, you lose. You have no way of resisting him because he has the protection from whatever or Lifelink to prevent you from racing. Your blockers can do nothing but just watch while the sword-carrier waltzes right past into the red zone, unmolested. You probably can't target the creature with anything in your deck. If not, then chances are you can't target it with anything of the color your creature removal probably is.
You don't have to have had played the deck to see how unfair this is.
But, granted, having that need to answer things is indeed a core component of the game. But the extent of how quickly the game spirals out of control in favor of the Stoneforge player makes it so much more important to have that answer. That Krosan Grip or Smash to Smithereens. This is where you have to fight through variance. Variance that your opponent completely circumvented to find their nut draw.
It's not difficult at all, and I have access to red mana by turn 3 in about 95% of the games I play with breachpost. When you run 4 groves, 1 stomping ground, a mountain and 4 gruul signets, that's 10 cards that give you red mana out of 60. That gives you a very good chance to have red mana in your opening hand, and if you don't have a red mana source on the board by turn 3 it's because either you don't want to yet or you got the worst hand/draws ever.
Feathers, I think the argument he was trying to make is that all of that is okay... in a format with T4 Emrakul and storm/twin wins.
That's absurd. Astoundingly absurd.
Thats why I dropped out of the bannings talk. Too many people fighting for their pet card or the card they want to abuse without thinking about the format as a whole.
There are problems with the format as it sits and somethings need to be banned, but I doubt much if anything gets unbanned until they gain some type of control over the format and slow it down some.
"I mean, Stoneforge Mystic being ridiculous didn't mean Kor were a giant mistake..."
(SunByrne) "@mtgaaron LSV rated SFM a 2.0 in his Worldwake preview, & nobody played it until there was SoFF. SFM isn't broken, the equipment is."
(Forsythe Response) "@SunByrne "Natural Order isn't broken, Progenitus is." No, Natural Order is."
Mr. Forsythe really dislikes this card and I sincerely doubt he is going to be responsible for its reintroduction into Modern. Jace, AV, and Bitterblossom are all more likely candidates for unbanning, in my opinion, based on his position towards SFM. Of course, this might be reading too much into his Tweets, but it is a better source of evidence than just pure speculation.
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Also I can pretty much say that cloudpost is getting banned. a few comments from certain high ranking RnD members sort of elude to it. Also splinter-twin is going to get hit in some way or another.
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