if top 8 has over 50% has a blue card, then blue is too strong and need to be banned more cards
red is in 100% of the top 8. zoo, shoal, breachpost, affinity,splinter-twin, pyromancer's ascension so is it too strong? Red is what makes all of the combo decks other than 12post work, and 12post gets a significant card (through the breach) out of it.
Not saying that red needs to be banned, but using this to further invalidate your argument.
Without Kiki-jiki + splinter-twin that combo would not work.
Without pyromancer's ascension its deck wouldn't work
Without grapshot/empty the warrens/dragonstorm/ignite memories = o storm decks.
Without Blazing shoal no infect combo deck
Without through the breach no through the breach combo deck.........
That acounts for every half-way viable combo deck, only leaving out hivemind, and Conflagration-Adnaseum which also both use red.
Yeah blue is the bad guy in the meta huh.
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What if instead of a normal banned list, wizards implemented a "combination banned list"
That is, certain card combinations cannot be played together but otherwise you can use that card if you aren't using it for that particular combo.
Here's some examples:
The following combination of cards are banned. If you include any of the cards in one half of the group of cards, you cannot include any of the cards in the other half of the group (+s separate the cards in the group in half).
What if instead of a normal banned list, wizards implemented a "combination banned list"
That is, certain card combinations cannot be played together but otherwise you can use that card if you aren't using it for that particular combo.
Here's some examples:
The following combination of cards are banned. If you include any of the cards in one half of the group of cards, you cannot include any of the cards in the other half of the group (+s separate the cards in the group in half).
and if you really wanted to make things really interesting
12) Fetchlands + Shocklands
All of these cards are legal, just not in their degenerate combos. Overall, less banned cards. Just banned combos.
This is such a cool idea. It prevents already known synergies from dominating, and it still allows people to innovate. I just worry that some cards are too powerful on their own, and can be combined with just about anything to make an OP deck. The purely combo ones like Twin, Kiki, Exarch, and mite would work, because without one half you can't do the combo, regardless of how hard you try, but the control ones and the ones that produce blatant card advantage like bitterblossom and glimpse of nature i feel would be very strong regardless of what deck they're thrown in. (Granted, the cards have to fit the deck in some regards, but the cards are very powerful in their own right, and thus would vastly increase the power of the deck they fit into).
I love the idea, but it seems hard to get rid of every possible synergy. I doubt that R&D will come up with this idea before tuesday, or ever. Still, we can hope, and if it does get implemented you get crazy mad props.
I really like the idea of banning combinations than cards... Sounds really intrigueing and maybe they might implement it since it is innovative and I for one, would definitely accept it.
Lol, and that 5 card combo must sit in your opening hand and doesn't kill your opponent, go test it and please tell me how many times you won. Even if you sculpt the hand every time.
Wizards bans reliable, format-warping combos that go off on turn one or two. Don't you think if Through the Breach allowed such, the Pro Tour would have seen more of it? My friend has a deck built to do this. It's average.
I play Rite of Flame in my Pauper Deck, I can tell you that I always rather see a Ponder and Manamorphose. Rite of Flame is great when I get it, although chances are you can never do a T1-T2 reliably - maybe once in a day... Not worth it.
rite of flame is fine.ppl should l2play
storm decks can be easily disrupted
the correct is to ban something from
cloudpost and unban a couple of cards
so control can relive again
How can you say combo is fine and easily disrupted when someone like LSV can lose 2 games in a row without doing anything at all?
I've said this before, but combo is fine as long as it can not win before turn 3. Not ever. Turn 3 is because that allows thorn of amethyst or canonist to come down if the fair deck is on the draw.
Otherwise, why bother playing if the winner might have already been decided by who plays first?
How can you say combo is fine and easily disrupted when someone like LSV can lose 2 games in a row without doing anything at all?
I've said this before, but combo is fine as long as it can not win before turn 4. Not ever. Turn 4 is because that allows thorn of amethyst or canonist to come down if the fair deck is on the draw.
Otherwise, why bother playing if the winner might have already been decided by who plays first?
Storm is a consistant T2-3 win, T1-2 kills happen often enough in my meta to be considered worrying to me (and a lot more often than once a day), this is always down to Rite of Flame and/or Simian Spirit Guide in opening hand (of which RoF count towards your Storm count and adds a minimum of RR). Manamorphoise just counts towards your storm count, cantrips and allows you to play your draw spells without U available, powerful but not the real issue.
I never felt it consistant enough with my deck and I believe I stepped out of line saying that it definitely is inconsistant. We will see what they'll do tomorrow.
Control isn't the solution. Combo needs to be slowed down so that ANY deck can at least drop thorn/canonist and interact with it. We shouldn't be forced to run black/blue to not autolose to combo. Combo winning before turn 3 is just utterly retarded, even if it was a god hand.
Winning before T3 is possible but not very consistent... Pyromancer or infect combo are not Legacy ANT, they CAN go off T2, but usually they TRY to go off T3-4... ANT GOES off consistently on T2... This is the real difference
And BTW, Grapeshot lose to a timed Beast Within on swath...
I'm not saying it happens often. I'm saying it should never, EVER happen.
Decks should have to work for their wins by playing an actual game. Not luck out on godhands and get free wins.
Storm also loses to mindbreak trap. Plenty of answers and through the breach is probably the lest potent of the lists. TTB is totally fine as are the rituals. Honestly if my opponent slammed down a deus of calamity I would probably be in bigger trouble than them spending there hand turn 1 to put me at 5 and destroy a small number of cards.
I'm not saying it happens often. I'm saying it should never, EVER happen.
Decks should have to work for their wins by playing an actual game. Not luck out on godhands and get free wins.
I guess we should ban all the good cards, then. Affinity can win before turn 3 with a god hand. So can STANDARD kuldotha red. As for "playing an actual game," I bet playing lands for four or five turns and then dropping Emrakul is ok with you, right? Seems like a paragon of interaction to me. It's pretty obvious that you just have an irrational hatred of combo, so I'm just going to ignore your future "contributions" to this thread.
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Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
Most UR storm lists have probe. I have yet to see a storm player lose to mindbreak trap.
@Admiral: I should clarify what I meant. When I say winning before turn 3, I meant storm because there is nothing you can do about it if they win before your t2, unless you run black/blue. Against affinity at least you can remove creatures, block stuff, etc. I also never said anything about 12post or Emrakul being fair. Emrakul is stupid, and nothing good has ever been done with it. However I'd say it's fairer than storm because at least you can blow their lands up and interact with them.
I also don't have any hate for combo as long as there is a way to interact with them. With the current card pool, that means not before turn 3 because of thorn/canonist.
I guess we should ban all the good cards, then. Affinity can win before turn 3 with a god hand. So can STANDARD kuldotha red. As for "playing an actual game," I bet playing lands for four or five turns and then dropping Emrakul is ok with you, right? Seems like a paragon of interaction to me. It's pretty obvious that you just have an irrational hatred of combo, so I'm just going to ignore your future "contributions" to this thread.
I don't think it is fair to say that hating combo is irrational. Magic is a game meant to be played for fun, and if someone thinks something isn't fun then they are going to hate having to deal with it when playing Magic. I hate playing against decks like Legacy Dredge because I think that they are non-interactive and break the game; I do not enjoy myself when I play against Dredge, regardless of whether I have answers for their deck. It doesn't feel like Magic to me. I feel the same way about Storm combo decks and do not like playing against them. If it comes down to making Magic more enjoyable or allowing people to play stupid decks that aren't really Magic (as I see Magic) the choice is pretty clear cut.
Storm also loses to mindbreak trap. Plenty of answers and through the breach is probably the lest potent of the lists. TTB is totally fine as are the rituals. Honestly if my opponent slammed down a deus of calamity I would probably be in bigger trouble than them spending there hand turn 1 to put me at 5 and destroy a small number of cards.
I say unban control pieces like visions and MM
Deus of calamity more trouble than hasted blighsteel colossus or emrakul?
Deus of calamity more trouble than hasted blighsteel colossus or emrakul?
Eh his example kind of sucks. All-in-Red can throw down a ton of rituals to get a Deus of Calamity into play on turn 1. At that point you have to kill it with 1 mana/chump block it or else it will lock you at 0 lands. His other example was someone using rituals to Through the Breach an Emrakul on turns 1-2 (something that no one would do). You're not "locked out of the game" and could still conceivably win if that happens, especially if he uses everything in his hand to pull it off. Obviously a Blightsteel Colossus would instantly win the game, but if it gets chumped by something or whatever then the player who cast him would be in a pretty terrible spot (it's not like his deck could get those last 1-2 poison counters in very easily). Very specific examples from very specific decks, not a very relevant comparison.
red is in 100% of the top 8. zoo, shoal, breachpost, affinity,splinter-twin, pyromancer's ascension so is it too strong? Red is what makes all of the combo decks other than 12post work, and 12post gets a significant card (through the breach) out of it.
Not saying that red needs to be banned, but using this to further invalidate your argument.
Without Kiki-jiki + splinter-twin that combo would not work.
Without pyromancer's ascension its deck wouldn't work
Without grapshot/empty the warrens/dragonstorm/ignite memories = o storm decks.
Without Blazing shoal no infect combo deck
Without through the breach no through the breach combo deck.........
That acounts for every half-way viable combo deck, only leaving out hivemind, and Conflagration-Adnaseum which also both use red.
Yeah blue is the bad guy in the meta huh.
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Trying to decipher this gives me a headache. Grammar ftw.
That is, certain card combinations cannot be played together but otherwise you can use that card if you aren't using it for that particular combo.
Here's some examples:
The following combination of cards are banned. If you include any of the cards in one half of the group of cards, you cannot include any of the cards in the other half of the group (+s separate the cards in the group in half).
1) Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull
2) Vesuva + Glimmerpost
3) Splinter Twin + Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch
4) Sword of the Meek + Thopter Foundry
5) Dark Depths + Vampire Hexmage
6) Dread Return + Narcomoeba
7) Valakut the Molten Pinnacle + Scapeshift
8) Hypergenesis + Violent Outburst, Ardent Plea, Demonic Dread
9) Sensei's Divining Top + Counterbalance
10) Inkmoth Nexus + Blazing Shoal
11) Vendilion Clique + Bitterblossom
12) Nettle Sentinel + Glimpse of Nature
and if you really wanted to make things really interesting
12) Fetchlands + Shocklands
All of these cards are legal, just not in their degenerate combos. Overall, less banned cards. Just banned combos.
It may be, but it allows a lot of cards to be used on their own.
Stoneforge would be fine without Batterskull.
Glimpse of Nature is fine without elf combo.
Dread Return is a balanced card without the dredge deck.
Shouldn't be have as many cards legal as possible? Sure, some will still be banned for being broken with everything. Like Skullclamp.
Look, you can even do this for affinity:
Cranial Plating + Seat of the Synod, Great Furnace, Tree of Tales...ect
It gives the format a Choose your own standard-esque feel to it where you have to choose one card over the other but not both.
This is such a cool idea. It prevents already known synergies from dominating, and it still allows people to innovate. I just worry that some cards are too powerful on their own, and can be combined with just about anything to make an OP deck. The purely combo ones like Twin, Kiki, Exarch, and mite would work, because without one half you can't do the combo, regardless of how hard you try, but the control ones and the ones that produce blatant card advantage like bitterblossom and glimpse of nature i feel would be very strong regardless of what deck they're thrown in. (Granted, the cards have to fit the deck in some regards, but the cards are very powerful in their own right, and thus would vastly increase the power of the deck they fit into).
I love the idea, but it seems hard to get rid of every possible synergy. I doubt that R&D will come up with this idea before tuesday, or ever. Still, we can hope, and if it does get implemented you get crazy mad props.
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Sigg'd for truth man, im quite sure that's what it would take for a competitive teaching decks, lol.
Seriously, we need some incentive to play control, autolosing to eldrazi.dec is just awful.
Lol, and that 5 card combo must sit in your opening hand and doesn't kill your opponent, go test it and please tell me how many times you won. Even if you sculpt the hand every time.
How can you say combo is fine and easily disrupted when someone like LSV can lose 2 games in a row without doing anything at all?
I've said this before, but combo is fine as long as it can not win before turn 3. Not ever. Turn 3 is because that allows thorn of amethyst or canonist to come down if the fair deck is on the draw.
Otherwise, why bother playing if the winner might have already been decided by who plays first?
Corrected.
I never felt it consistant enough with my deck and I believe I stepped out of line saying that it definitely is inconsistant. We will see what they'll do tomorrow.
When have they ever been fair
Insert witty phrase here
I'm not saying it happens often. I'm saying it should never, EVER happen.
Decks should have to work for their wins by playing an actual game. Not luck out on godhands and get free wins.
I say unban control pieces like visions and MM
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I guess we should ban all the good cards, then. Affinity can win before turn 3 with a god hand. So can STANDARD kuldotha red. As for "playing an actual game," I bet playing lands for four or five turns and then dropping Emrakul is ok with you, right? Seems like a paragon of interaction to me. It's pretty obvious that you just have an irrational hatred of combo, so I'm just going to ignore your future "contributions" to this thread.
UBRGW T.E.S.
UUUSpiral Tide
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
EDH:
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
@Admiral: I should clarify what I meant. When I say winning before turn 3, I meant storm because there is nothing you can do about it if they win before your t2, unless you run black/blue. Against affinity at least you can remove creatures, block stuff, etc. I also never said anything about 12post or Emrakul being fair. Emrakul is stupid, and nothing good has ever been done with it. However I'd say it's fairer than storm because at least you can blow their lands up and interact with them.
I also don't have any hate for combo as long as there is a way to interact with them. With the current card pool, that means not before turn 3 because of thorn/canonist.
Deus of calamity more trouble than hasted blighsteel colossus or emrakul?
Eh his example kind of sucks. All-in-Red can throw down a ton of rituals to get a Deus of Calamity into play on turn 1. At that point you have to kill it with 1 mana/chump block it or else it will lock you at 0 lands. His other example was someone using rituals to Through the Breach an Emrakul on turns 1-2 (something that no one would do). You're not "locked out of the game" and could still conceivably win if that happens, especially if he uses everything in his hand to pull it off. Obviously a Blightsteel Colossus would instantly win the game, but if it gets chumped by something or whatever then the player who cast him would be in a pretty terrible spot (it's not like his deck could get those last 1-2 poison counters in very easily). Very specific examples from very specific decks, not a very relevant comparison.
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