I doubt they ban cloudpost since it wasn't even played in the extended's urzatron times. They would ban vesuva or glimmerpost before cloudpost.
This is what I mean when I say control, or at least blue control, don't have the cards. They don't even have counterspell, a spell totally acceptable power level wise in Modern. We have mana leak and rune snag as the best 2CMC counterpells...sad. The 1CMC counters are far higher in the power level scale than those 2.
Control cards suck, and they blame 12post for everything. When you have aggro decks that have the same speed as legacy aggro, and control decks don't have half of their cards (dual lands included), it's obvious what will happen.
I mean... wrath of god is too slow at 4CMC. When this happens, control has a problem.
The only control deck that I see has a good future is faeries with bitterblossom, vision and jace unbanned.
Honestly if I didn't have to meta game for 12post I believe that I could do very well with some control decks in this meta. faeries gets wrecked by zoo so I don't think its an option.
I could do mystical teachings against both zoo and combo decks, but atm I'm having to run shadow of doubt and trickbind to stand up to 12post. That doesn't even include the 4 main deck ghost quarter, and tons of concessions I've had to make with counterspells and removal spells.
Wrath of god is far from too slow as long as you have some cheap removal/counters and maybe a bit of ramp from mana rocks. The main issue is that running wrath of god means that you can't run very many other high cost spells like gifts ungiven, mystical teachings, or actual ways to finish the games. Control needs 12post weakened and then something unbanned.
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I do any number of things from Cryptic Command to tap him and follow up with a damnation the following turn, or I sudden spoil it and repeat with damnation, or a mindbreak trap his casting, or I thoughtseize it back into my opponents deck before he casts it, or hell idk maybe turn 2 I ghost quarter his cloudpost and extirpate it so all he can do is bend over and take it as his entire ramp concept just went out the window. I do something other than depend on a specific card type, IE counter spells, to handle a creature that says they can't effect him.
BTW he is the worst example you can use as a reason for control to actually run counter spells considering he is uncounterable.
And yeah I'm feeling that pain right now in trying to make this work. I have found I can handle 12-post and combo but zoo/counter-cat/affinity is kicking my teeth down my throat. I'm starting to get zoo figured out the others not so much, in the end it takes more time and play testing and less complaining.
I don't think you understand how 12 post works. You can't target Emrakul with colored spells. Cryptic Command doesn't tap him and Mindbreak Trap doesn't prevent them from taking another turn, meaning they just recast another tutored Emrakul. You just simply never get to untap again, meaning that Damnation or any other answer doesn't do anything. O-ring is just about the only removal spell that can target Emrakul, and it's sorcery speed makes it irrelevant.
I'm perfectly fine with a situation were people can cast Tooth and Nail instead of Emrakul, and win on the spot, just because it allows the format to play control, which counteracts combo. There are plenty of other methods of killing with 12 post, however it's the uncounterability of Emrakul combined with the syngergy of Eye of Ugin that makes Emrakul so scary.
At the end of the day, nerfing combo isn't the answer, making control viable again is. It's the lack of control that's made the format so nasty.
Honestly this will do nothing. 12post will still be fast enough to compete with all non-control decks, and be able to muscle control decks out with a never ending supply of other eldrazi.
Neither of the cards you want to unban will have a real effect on control decks because they don't cater to the needs that control has in this format. Control needs a way to make thirst for knowledge, gifts ungiven, and chalice of the void playable. Also control needs a decently cheap way to win games other than vendilion clique because it isn't enough. A few certain cards could help control actually exist in the meta game if glimmerpost was banned which would make it a lot harder to hard cast eldrazi. This would solve the problem very well while not completely killing the deck.
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I don't think you understand how 12 post works. You can't target Emrakul with colored spells. Cryptic Command doesn't tap him and Mindbreak Trap doesn't prevent them from taking another turn, meaning they just recast another tutored Emrakul.
No, YOU don't understand how Emrakul works. /facepalm
I don't think you understand how 12 post works. You can't target Emrakul with colored spells. Cryptic Command doesn't tap him and Mindbreak Trap doesn't prevent them from taking another turn, meaning they just recast another tutored Emrakul. You just simply never get to untap again, meaning that Damnation or any other answer doesn't do anything. O-ring is just about the only removal spell that can target Emrakul, and it's sorcery speed makes it irrelevant.
I'm perfectly fine with a situation were people can cast Tooth and Nail instead of Emrakul, and win on the spot, just because it allows the format to play control, which counteracts combo. There are plenty of other methods of killing with 12 post, however it's the uncounterability of Emrakul combined with the syngergy of Eye of Ugin that makes Emrakul so scary.
I don't think you understand how Cryptic Command works. Cryptic Command taps ALL creatures your opponents controls. It does not target meaning MR tentical monster will tap his happy self doing absolutely nothing, BTW if they are casting him 4-5 the odds of them having 22 mana+Eye at that point to tutor and cast him is really low. Mindbreak trap removes him from the game while he is on the stack, before his protection from colored spells goes into effect.
As I said control, and especially U/B control, can handle him very easily if they do something other then panic over the fact that they can't stop a big fatty from hitting the table.
Ok so then what happens when someone slams down the Flying Spaghetti Monster on like turn 4-5? Do you just scoop 'em up? The problem right now is that its nearly impossible for Control to fight aggro and combo without just auto-losing to Twelvepost. The problem is the mana advantage that it generates, its nearly impossible for a control deck to grind out a win if they are behind in mana. Its not the fact that counterspells are bad (although that does hurt) its the insane mana generation and inevitability that Twelvepost has.
I don't know your record against 12post, but turn 4 or 5 hardcast emrakul are not that usual, actually pretty rare. Turn 3 or 4 through the breach yes, and they leave you at 0-5 life and 0 permanents.
And I say it again, for a fast cast emrakul you have to have it in hand, because if you have to search it with the eye it is delayed another turn. And the reason they play 4 emrakuls is because of through the breach. A through the breachless 12post won't kill you on turn 3 or 4. The best it can do is play titan on turn 3 (extremely rare) or 4 (still less than 30% of the games). Then, next turn search for emrakul or maybe search and play ulamog. But usually they wait for another turn until they have 20 mana for the eye and the emrakul. That makes what, at least turn 6 emrakul in less than 30% of the times and without any disruption. By that time aggro has already killed me on turn 4-5 many times, specially aggro elves with their forestwalk. Let's not talk about combo lol.
Various blue-based archetypes do exist. They just aren't heavily played. Next Level Blue, as piloted by Brad Sheppard at PT Philly, relied on Rune Snag as its primary counterspell. After the tournament, Sheppard admitted that he would switch in Leak for Snag, but he still has this as a core counterspell in his blue-based control deck. As another example, check out the Dralnu Teachings and UW Tron lists from MTGO in the last few weeks. Rogue? Yes. Underplayed? Yes. Decent control lists capable of at least posting consistent 3-1 results? Also yes. These decks use the Snags/Leaks as their main 2 CMC counterspell, the catchall for the format.
It really is not worth getting into a control vs. Twelvepost argument here. Sure, control can counter the first Zenith or Titan, but Twelvepost always beats blue-based control in the end. Testing by players on this forum, on other forums, and by pros at PT Philly confirm this fact time and time again. Inevitability is the big thing here, and control just can't deal with Twelvepost's inevitability. That's why basically everyone on this thread, with a few exceptions, wants SOMETHING from Twelvepost banned.
None of these cards are good answers to Twelvepost AND the rest of the decks in the format (except Boom/Bust, but that is in a very specific, already proven archetype). Yes, I can make a land destruction deck that murders Twelvepost in 100% of matchups, but I am basically punting my aggro matchup and leaving my combo matchup at a coin toss. Legacy is able to keep land-based strategies like Twelvepost in check because of one single highly efficient, eminently playable, low-investment card: Wasteland. I tested a GB Deathcloud build for months over the summer and the only way to fix the Twelvepost matchup was adding in about 12 other land destruction sources on top of the Clouds. But in doing so, the rest of the matchups were trashed (especially aggro).
If Modern had land destruction that could be played in other matchups, we would be fine. For example, if Opposition were around, then I would not even worry about Twelvepost. Or Winter Orb. Or Dust Bowl. Or Tangle Wire. It's a long list, but the older land destruction cards, or land lockdown engines, are just way better at keeping lands in check than the "fair" ones that Modern has. Modern does not have a land-targeting strategy or set of cards that also works in other common matchups, and that is a problem.
In the end, we can theorize all we want about the effectiveness of land destruction in this format, but the tournament facts are there. PT Philly showed that the best way to beat Twelvepost was just to play fast combo and call it a day.
-ktkenshinx-
Yes of course. We have the tools to control fast combo decks, but when it comes to controlling lands the best cards are Thoughts of Ruin, Boom//Bust, and Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge, the latter two which don't really do that much vs the deck.
The problem is that playing lands is just too easy so it's hard to disrupt it.
I don't know your record against 12post, but turn 4 or 5 hardcast emrakul are not that usual, actually pretty rare. Turn 3 or 4 through the breach yes, and they leave you at 0-5 life and 0 permanents.
And I say it again, for a fast cast emrakul you have to have it in hand, because if you have to search it with the eye it is delayed another turn. And the reason they play 4 emrakuls is because of through the breach. A through the breachless 12post won't kill you on turn 3 or 4. The best it can do is play titan on turn 3 (extremely rare) or 4 (still less than 30% of the games). Then, next turn search for emrakul or maybe search and play ulamog. But usually they wait for another turn until they have 20 mana for the eye and the emrakul. That makes what, at least turn 6 emrakul in less than 30% of the times and without any disruption. By that time aggro has already killed me on turn 4-5 many times, specially aggro elves with their forestwalk. Let's not talk about combo lol.
If your not running firespout you doing wrong. Firespout + walls = auto win against aggro.
Honestly the article is wrote pretty bad, but his insights on the meta and the deck are great. The reason that 12post has been losing to combo is because no one has hate for it, and no one understands that sometimes your not the beatdown.
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Exactly.... they cast another, both die, and they take infinite turns with eye of ugin...
That won't be till much MUCH later in the game, turn 10ish, and that is if I'm doing little/nothing to prevent them from doing such. As I said I make damn good use of ghost quarters, eye of ugin locks have never happened to me.
Yes of course. We have the tools to control fast combo decks, but when it comes to controlling lands the best cards are Thoughts of Ruin, Boom//Bust, and Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge, the latter two which don't really do that much vs the deck.
The problem is that playing lands is just too easy so it's hard to disrupt it.
I just want to emphasize the last statement that Hinotama said, because it is an important one. With cards like Explore and Reap and Sow powering Twelvepost, it is incredibly difficult to address the land drops on a one to one basis. To make matters worse, Twelvepost runs ample Wall of Roots and Overgrown Battlements, which accelerate into GSZ/Titan even if you are somehow successfully attacking the manabase. In order to stop Twelvepost by denying mana, you need to be killing both the creature accelerators and the posts, and that is just too tall an order for anything short of a dedicated Land Destruction deck.
When we combine the resilience of Twelvepost with the awfulness of most land destruction (which makes LD hard to use in the format as a strategy), you have a recipe for Modern disaster. Can decks beat Twelvepost? Absolutely! But Breachpost, a deck that I have long explained to be way better than traditional builds, smoothes out a lot of vulnerabilities that the deck traditionally has.
If anyone wants to see the number crunch on Breachpost/Traditional Twelvepost at PT Philly, just search the thread for my posts. Looking at it, it is pretty darn clear that the deck is leagues apart from Traditional U, UG, and G versions.
I just want to emphasize the last statement that Hinotama said, because it is an important one. With cards like Explore and Reap and Sow powering Twelvepost, it is incredibly difficult to address the land drops on a one to one basis. To make matters worse, Twelvepost runs ample Wall of Roots and Overgrown Battlements, which accelerate into GSZ/Titan even if you are somehow successfully attacking the manabase. In order to stop Twelvepost by denying mana, you need to be killing both the creature accelerators and the posts, and that is just too tall an order for anything short of a dedicated Land Destruction deck.
When we combine the resilience of Twelvepost with the awfulness of most land destruction (which makes LD hard to use in the format as a strategy), you have a recipe for Modern disaster. Can decks beat Twelvepost? Absolutely! But Breachpost, a deck that I have long explained to be way better than traditional builds, smoothes out a lot of vulnerabilities that the deck traditionally has.
If anyone wants to see the number crunch on Breachpost/Traditional Twelvepost at PT Philly, just search the thread for my posts. Looking at it, it is pretty darn clear that the deck is leagues apart from Traditional U, UG, and G versions.
Also sudden shock against infect combo is pretty good.
-ktkenshinx-
This and also the deck still has ways to innovate. Now it can throw some anti-combo cards like spellskite in board. If they are afraid of aggro walls + firespouts do a great job. Punishing fire is decent tech against the infect combo that can also do a bit in the affinity match-up. The worst match-up for this deck is infect combo, the next is probably storm.
Infect combo gets shut down by spellskite and punishing fire.
Storm is much more difficult. Trinisphere can be played on third turn and seems like a decent option. Mindbreak trap isn't bad since you don't actually have to play blue for it.
The deck does have options.
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i must say that twins is better than 12 post. you can see that 12 post still always change much in their decklist. but twins is so stable.
if any card should be banned in 12 post. twins must also have some cards to be banned. if not, then over 40% will play twins.
2 flash untap creature play 8 copies is too much for this combo. use back sky hussar to complete the combo.
and 12 post just ban cloudpost and use back eldrazi temple
then the game is fun when new twins vs new 12 posts(may be not call as posts)
i must say that twins is better than 12 post. you can see that 12 post still always change much in their decklist. but twins is so stable.
if any card should be banned in 12 post. twins must also have some cards to be banned. if not, then over 40% will play twins.
2 flash untap creature play 8 copies is too much for this combo. use back sky hussar to complete the combo.
and 12 post just ban cloudpost and use back eldrazi temple
then the game is fun when new twins vs new 12 posts(may be not call as posts)
If 12post ate a banning (I would suggest Glimmerpost, since it suddenly means the deck has a "tough" matchup against Aggro and Combo, with no auto-win against Control), then Control would enter the format, making Twin less powerful. 12post may not be dominating in a stupid way, but it's warping the format in a massive way.
EDIT: For the numerically challenged, look at PT Philly. Now subtract 12post %ages, and a quarter of the combo deck percentages. I would consider THAT chunk of the meta, the part of the meta being warped by 12post.
If cloudpost or glimmerpost eats the ban hammer, you could swap it for 4x eldrazi temple and run an identical decklist. You can still play breach on turn 3 without cloudpost and you can still cast emrakul easily later in the game with temples in play. Here's how it would go.
Turn 1 - forest, GSZ for 0 fetching dryad arbor
Turn 2 - mountain + battlement/wall of roots or any land and a gruul signet
Turn 3 - any land, through the breach, emrakul
However, this deck would be more vulnerable to hand disruption and counters because it would take one to two turns longer to be able to hardcast emrakul. It will be interesting to see what people try to do to keep breachpost competitive if Cloudpost gets banned.
If cloudpost or glimmerpost eats the ban hammer, you could swap it for 4x eldrazi temple and run an identical decklist. You can still play breach on turn 3 without cloudpost and you can still cast emrakul easily later in the game with temples in play. Here's how it would go.
Turn 1 - forest, GSZ for 0 fetching dryad arbor
Turn 2 - mountain + battlement/wall of roots or any land and a gruul signet
Turn 3 - any land, through the breach, emrakul
However, this deck would be more vulnerable to hand disruption and counters because it would take one to two turns longer to be able to hardcast emrakul. It will be interesting to see what people try to do to keep breachpost competitive if Cloudpost gets banned.
actually a breach combo deck exist that uses rituals. Obviously if cloudpost gets banned no sort of post decks will survive.
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I wanted to make this question to control players for a long time:
Why don't you just give up the 12Post matchup and focus on beating combo and aggro entirely? That's still a big portion of the meta to prey upon.
It doesn't make sense to me when control players are lamenting they can't beat 12Post. To put it on perspective, compare it with a Legacy goblin player complaining that he can't beat a field of Belcher and Storm (yeah an outdated example but you get the point): the right thing to do is to switch into something that beats those decks (Countertop to keep with the outdated examples) and them return to goblins when combo has been hated out. That has been happening with 12post, which was slaughtered in Philly by aggro and combo. Only bad players will be playing post in a meta as hostile as this. If you only lose to it you shouldn't be losing that often this days, no matter how bad the matchup is.
Naturally there has been some arguments for this:
1) 12post players and decks were terrible in Philly. This is quite suspicious both because you can't get a tournament with better skill and less financial issues than a Pro Tour and when a card or deck is truly broken, the Pro Tour reflects it clearly (see Cawblade). Anyway, let's concede that the ultimate version of the deck, RG BreachPost, hadn't been popular yet. How is the Zoo matchup for this variant? Is it so good for post that not even aggro can compete and combo remains as the only narrow option that can stand against 12post? So far I'm not convinced that any version of Cloudpost has a better than 40 / 60 matchup against aggro, but I could hear reasonable arguments for this since I haven't tested it against Breach.
2) Control is so miserable than even in the absence of 12post its pairings with aggro and combo are still not that good. This could be the case because counterspells existent in the format are much more fit for combo than control. As impressive and admidmitedly overpowered Zoo creatures are, an straight aggro deck is still fair, so I don't blame aggro for the state of control in the format. If this is the case, nerfing combo with the banning of Rite of Flame and maybe Blazing shoal could help (not that combo is that loved anyway) along with the unbanning of Visions and Misstep (the last one ONLY if combo gets neutered first.
12Post decks provide a useful service to the format, so sending them to oblivion should be thought carefully. Thanks to them we will never see a Standard like meta of 6 Cawblade decks and 32 Jaces in a top8, since players will be ready to play some uncounterable Time Walks and annhilation as soon as islands dare to take a too big portion of the meta.
Because conceding the Twelvepost Matchup is like conceding about 1/5 of your games, that's just not going to get you there. Twelvepost is still a very popular deck since it has awesome control MUs and Aggro MUs and the Breach version doesn't have horrible combo matchups.
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I wanted to make this question to control players for a long time:
Why don't you just give up the 12Post matchup and focus on beating combo and aggro entirely? That's still a big portion of the meta to prey upon.
It doesn't make sense to me when control players are lamenting they can't beat 12Post. To put it on perspective, compare it with a Legacy goblin player complaining that he can't beat a field of Belcher and Storm (yeah an outdated example but you get the point): the right thing to do is to switch into something that beats those decks (Countertop to keep with the outdated examples) and them return to goblins when combo has been hated out. That has been happening with 12post, which was slaughtered in Philly by aggro and combo. Only bad players will be playing post in a meta as hostile as this. If you only lose to it you shouldn't be losing that often this days, no matter how bad the matchup is.
Naturally there has been some arguments for this:
1) 12post players and decks were terrible in Philly. This is quite suspicious both because you can't get a tournament with better skill and less financial issues than a Pro Tour and when a card or deck is truly broken, the Pro Tour reflects it clearly (see Cawblade). Anyway, let's concede that the ultimate version of the deck, RG BreachPost, hadn't been popular yet. How is the Zoo matchup for this variant? Is it so good for post that not even aggro can compete and combo remains as the only narrow option that can stand against 12post? So far I'm not convinced that any version of Cloudpost has a better than 40 / 60 matchup against aggro, but I could hear reasonable arguments for this since I haven't tested it against Breach.
2) Control is so miserable than even in the absence of 12post its pairings with aggro and combo are still not that good. This could be the case because counterspells existent in the format are much more fit for combo than control. As impressive and admidmitedly overpowered Zoo creatures are, an straight aggro deck is still fair, so I don't blame aggro for the state of control in the format. If this is the case, nerfing combo with the banning of Rite of Flame and maybe Blazing shoal could help (not that combo is that loved anyway) along with the unbanning of Visions and Misstep (the last one ONLY if combo gets neutered first.
12Post decks provide a useful service to the format, so sending them to oblivion should be thought carefully. Thanks to them we will never see a Standard like meta of 6 Cawblade decks and 32 Jaces in a top8, since players will be ready to play some uncounterable Time Walks and annhilation as soon as islands dare to take a too big portion of the meta.
Post was slightly hated out, but they can have some cards in their sideboard. Also note that breachpost had well over .500 win percentage, and most of these didn't even have proper sideboards. With walls and firespout you really can't lose to aggro, and the combo matchup can be significantly increased with the right hate cards in the sideboard. This will still be a great and powerful deck.
Well control is tough in the meta even without 12post. Your not likely to have very much over a 50/50 shot vs most other decks with affinity possibly being 45% or less depending on what you run. 12post will never be better than 45% so you'll have a win % well below .500.
The two best control cards in the format are banned, and no one ever says the right two. Its not jace or visions or bitterblossom. Its chrome mox, sword of the meek and to a lesser extent seat of the synod.
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Well that sounds convincing. A deck beating control and aggro at the same time and without effort is too powerful indeed, so bring the banhammer. I hate that something as innocuous as "gain 1 life" added to the Locus subtype was good enough to break the format but yeah, Glimmerpost looks like the most likely target.
Sword of the meek is quite unfair to aggro decks so unbanning should be the last resource. It may sound heretical, but banning of Wild Nacatl may be a good idea (unbanning Misstep would accomplish the same thing but it may be dangerous), mostly for aggro diversity reasons. A lot of players (myself included) hated this aspect of old Extended where everything aggro has been reduced to the Zoo deck for years thanks to the fetchlands and shocklands, much like what happened to control during the Vivid lands era. Of all Zoo cards, Nacatl is the card that gives it an uncanny clock and a ability to outperform any other aggro deck, since not even other decks' two drops can compare. Take out nacatl and suddenly the other aggro decks like Affinity, Merfolk, Elves or even White weenie don't look like strictly worse versions of Zoo. As a side benefit, control get an extra turn to breathe.
Well that sounds convincing. A deck beating control and aggro at the same time and without effort is too powerful indeed, so bring the banhammer. I hate that something as innocuous as "gain 1 life" added to the Locus subtype was good enough to break the format but yeah, Glimmerpost looks like the most likely target.
Sword of the meek is quite unfair to aggro decks so unbanning should be the last resource. It may sound heretical, but banning of Wild Nacatl may be a good idea (unbanning Misstep would accomplish the same thing but it may be dangerous), mostly for aggro diversity reasons. A lot of players (myself included) hated this aspect of old Extended where everything aggro has been reduced to the Zoo deck for years thanks to the fetchlands and shocklands, much like what happened to control during the Vivid lands era. Of all Zoo cards, Nacatl is the card that gives it an uncanny clock and a ability to outperform any other aggro deck, since not even other decks' two drops can compare. Take out nacatl and suddenly the other aggro decks like Affinity, Merfolk, Elves or even White weenie don't look like strictly worse versions of Zoo. As a side benefit, control get an extra turn to breathe.
It isn't the one life its the fact that it is an additional locus land.
Also how is sword of the meek unfair for aggro. Several decks have ways to easily deal with it, and it's not effective until turn turn 4-5.
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Gotta say I disagree completely with sword of the meek. No instant "I win" combo should be able to be put into a control deck with the ease of that one. Honestly I really hate control having any kind of combo instant win strategy at all. Those combos have such a huge upside, IE insta winning the game, but they are suppose to have a weakness of being fairly easy to disrupt and difficult to defend. When you put them into a control deck suddenly they can be very easy to protect and it makes them much more deadly than they ever should be.
Also how is sword of the meek unfair for aggro. Several decks have ways to easily deal with it, and it's not effective until turn turn 4-5.
You're making it sound as if control were going to sit and watch aggro do its stuff until the turn it lands the Foundry. Zoo goldfishes on turn four, yes but control is anything but a goldfish. It just takes two cards - removal, blockers, permission, any of them - to make through turn 4 or 5 and once the lock is on play it's quite hard to win through it even with artifact removal - we all remember this "in response to you targeting my foundry, make 4 - 5 thopters gain that much life". Aggro isn't much different from that Zoo decks present in the last large Extended season, and non - Dephts Thopter control crushed it, the only thing stopping Thopter control from being the best deck in the format being Thopter Dephts itself. 12Post wouldn't care about Foundry, but a banning it's probably on the way.
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Honestly if I didn't have to meta game for 12post I believe that I could do very well with some control decks in this meta. faeries gets wrecked by zoo so I don't think its an option.
I could do mystical teachings against both zoo and combo decks, but atm I'm having to run shadow of doubt and trickbind to stand up to 12post. That doesn't even include the 4 main deck ghost quarter, and tons of concessions I've had to make with counterspells and removal spells.
Wrath of god is far from too slow as long as you have some cheap removal/counters and maybe a bit of ramp from mana rocks. The main issue is that running wrath of god means that you can't run very many other high cost spells like gifts ungiven, mystical teachings, or actual ways to finish the games. Control needs 12post weakened and then something unbanned.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I don't think you understand how 12 post works. You can't target Emrakul with colored spells. Cryptic Command doesn't tap him and Mindbreak Trap doesn't prevent them from taking another turn, meaning they just recast another tutored Emrakul. You just simply never get to untap again, meaning that Damnation or any other answer doesn't do anything. O-ring is just about the only removal spell that can target Emrakul, and it's sorcery speed makes it irrelevant.
I'm perfectly fine with a situation were people can cast Tooth and Nail instead of Emrakul, and win on the spot, just because it allows the format to play control, which counteracts combo. There are plenty of other methods of killing with 12 post, however it's the uncounterability of Emrakul combined with the syngergy of Eye of Ugin that makes Emrakul so scary.
My votes:
Ban
Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
Unban
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ancestral Vision
At the end of the day, nerfing combo isn't the answer, making control viable again is. It's the lack of control that's made the format so nasty.
Honestly this will do nothing. 12post will still be fast enough to compete with all non-control decks, and be able to muscle control decks out with a never ending supply of other eldrazi.
Neither of the cards you want to unban will have a real effect on control decks because they don't cater to the needs that control has in this format. Control needs a way to make thirst for knowledge, gifts ungiven, and chalice of the void playable. Also control needs a decently cheap way to win games other than vendilion clique because it isn't enough. A few certain cards could help control actually exist in the meta game if glimmerpost was banned which would make it a lot harder to hard cast eldrazi. This would solve the problem very well while not completely killing the deck.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
No, YOU don't understand how Emrakul works. /facepalm
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I don't think you understand how Cryptic Command works. Cryptic Command taps ALL creatures your opponents controls. It does not target meaning MR tentical monster will tap his happy self doing absolutely nothing, BTW if they are casting him 4-5 the odds of them having 22 mana+Eye at that point to tutor and cast him is really low. Mindbreak trap removes him from the game while he is on the stack, before his protection from colored spells goes into effect.
As I said control, and especially U/B control, can handle him very easily if they do something other then panic over the fact that they can't stop a big fatty from hitting the table.
Yes it does. Read the card. Shinx, I'll respond later tonight. Gotta run.
EDIT: Nevermind, the conversation has moved on.
I don't know your record against 12post, but turn 4 or 5 hardcast emrakul are not that usual, actually pretty rare. Turn 3 or 4 through the breach yes, and they leave you at 0-5 life and 0 permanents.
And I say it again, for a fast cast emrakul you have to have it in hand, because if you have to search it with the eye it is delayed another turn. And the reason they play 4 emrakuls is because of through the breach. A through the breachless 12post won't kill you on turn 3 or 4. The best it can do is play titan on turn 3 (extremely rare) or 4 (still less than 30% of the games). Then, next turn search for emrakul or maybe search and play ulamog. But usually they wait for another turn until they have 20 mana for the eye and the emrakul. That makes what, at least turn 6 emrakul in less than 30% of the times and without any disruption. By that time aggro has already killed me on turn 4-5 many times, specially aggro elves with their forestwalk. Let's not talk about combo lol.
Eh I guess that's true, but the games over at that point. They just cast a second Emrakul during their time walked turn.
Yes of course. We have the tools to control fast combo decks, but when it comes to controlling lands the best cards are Thoughts of Ruin, Boom//Bust, and Ghost Quarter/Tectonic Edge, the latter two which don't really do that much vs the deck.
The problem is that playing lands is just too easy so it's hard to disrupt it.
If your not running firespout you doing wrong. Firespout + walls = auto win against aggro.
Here is an article from travis woo
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/twoo-cents-breaking-through-the-breach-at-pt-philly/
Honestly the article is wrote pretty bad, but his insights on the meta and the deck are great. The reason that 12post has been losing to combo is because no one has hate for it, and no one understands that sometimes your not the beatdown.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
That won't be till much MUCH later in the game, turn 10ish, and that is if I'm doing little/nothing to prevent them from doing such. As I said I make damn good use of ghost quarters, eye of ugin locks have never happened to me.
I just want to emphasize the last statement that Hinotama said, because it is an important one. With cards like Explore and Reap and Sow powering Twelvepost, it is incredibly difficult to address the land drops on a one to one basis. To make matters worse, Twelvepost runs ample Wall of Roots and Overgrown Battlements, which accelerate into GSZ/Titan even if you are somehow successfully attacking the manabase. In order to stop Twelvepost by denying mana, you need to be killing both the creature accelerators and the posts, and that is just too tall an order for anything short of a dedicated Land Destruction deck.
When we combine the resilience of Twelvepost with the awfulness of most land destruction (which makes LD hard to use in the format as a strategy), you have a recipe for Modern disaster. Can decks beat Twelvepost? Absolutely! But Breachpost, a deck that I have long explained to be way better than traditional builds, smoothes out a lot of vulnerabilities that the deck traditionally has.
If anyone wants to see the number crunch on Breachpost/Traditional Twelvepost at PT Philly, just search the thread for my posts. Looking at it, it is pretty darn clear that the deck is leagues apart from Traditional U, UG, and G versions.
-ktkenshinx-
This and also the deck still has ways to innovate. Now it can throw some anti-combo cards like spellskite in board. If they are afraid of aggro walls + firespouts do a great job. Punishing fire is decent tech against the infect combo that can also do a bit in the affinity match-up. The worst match-up for this deck is infect combo, the next is probably storm.
Infect combo gets shut down by spellskite and punishing fire.
Storm is much more difficult. Trinisphere can be played on third turn and seems like a decent option. Mindbreak trap isn't bad since you don't actually have to play blue for it.
The deck does have options.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
if any card should be banned in 12 post. twins must also have some cards to be banned. if not, then over 40% will play twins.
2 flash untap creature play 8 copies is too much for this combo. use back sky hussar to complete the combo.
and 12 post just ban cloudpost and use back eldrazi temple
then the game is fun when new twins vs new 12 posts(may be not call as posts)
If 12post ate a banning (I would suggest Glimmerpost, since it suddenly means the deck has a "tough" matchup against Aggro and Combo, with no auto-win against Control), then Control would enter the format, making Twin less powerful. 12post may not be dominating in a stupid way, but it's warping the format in a massive way.
EDIT: For the numerically challenged, look at PT Philly. Now subtract 12post %ages, and a quarter of the combo deck percentages. I would consider THAT chunk of the meta, the part of the meta being warped by 12post.
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Turn 1 - forest, GSZ for 0 fetching dryad arbor
Turn 2 - mountain + battlement/wall of roots or any land and a gruul signet
Turn 3 - any land, through the breach, emrakul
However, this deck would be more vulnerable to hand disruption and counters because it would take one to two turns longer to be able to hardcast emrakul. It will be interesting to see what people try to do to keep breachpost competitive if Cloudpost gets banned.
actually a breach combo deck exist that uses rituals. Obviously if cloudpost gets banned no sort of post decks will survive.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Why don't you just give up the 12Post matchup and focus on beating combo and aggro entirely? That's still a big portion of the meta to prey upon.
It doesn't make sense to me when control players are lamenting they can't beat 12Post. To put it on perspective, compare it with a Legacy goblin player complaining that he can't beat a field of Belcher and Storm (yeah an outdated example but you get the point): the right thing to do is to switch into something that beats those decks (Countertop to keep with the outdated examples) and them return to goblins when combo has been hated out. That has been happening with 12post, which was slaughtered in Philly by aggro and combo. Only bad players will be playing post in a meta as hostile as this. If you only lose to it you shouldn't be losing that often this days, no matter how bad the matchup is.
Naturally there has been some arguments for this:
1) 12post players and decks were terrible in Philly. This is quite suspicious both because you can't get a tournament with better skill and less financial issues than a Pro Tour and when a card or deck is truly broken, the Pro Tour reflects it clearly (see Cawblade). Anyway, let's concede that the ultimate version of the deck, RG BreachPost, hadn't been popular yet. How is the Zoo matchup for this variant? Is it so good for post that not even aggro can compete and combo remains as the only narrow option that can stand against 12post? So far I'm not convinced that any version of Cloudpost has a better than 40 / 60 matchup against aggro, but I could hear reasonable arguments for this since I haven't tested it against Breach.
2) Control is so miserable than even in the absence of 12post its pairings with aggro and combo are still not that good. This could be the case because counterspells existent in the format are much more fit for combo than control. As impressive and admidmitedly overpowered Zoo creatures are, an straight aggro deck is still fair, so I don't blame aggro for the state of control in the format. If this is the case, nerfing combo with the banning of Rite of Flame and maybe Blazing shoal could help (not that combo is that loved anyway) along with the unbanning of Visions and Misstep (the last one ONLY if combo gets neutered first.
12Post decks provide a useful service to the format, so sending them to oblivion should be thought carefully. Thanks to them we will never see a Standard like meta of 6 Cawblade decks and 32 Jaces in a top8, since players will be ready to play some uncounterable Time Walks and annhilation as soon as islands dare to take a too big portion of the meta.
Post was slightly hated out, but they can have some cards in their sideboard. Also note that breachpost had well over .500 win percentage, and most of these didn't even have proper sideboards. With walls and firespout you really can't lose to aggro, and the combo matchup can be significantly increased with the right hate cards in the sideboard. This will still be a great and powerful deck.
Well control is tough in the meta even without 12post. Your not likely to have very much over a 50/50 shot vs most other decks with affinity possibly being 45% or less depending on what you run. 12post will never be better than 45% so you'll have a win % well below .500.
The two best control cards in the format are banned, and no one ever says the right two. Its not jace or visions or bitterblossom. Its chrome mox, sword of the meek and to a lesser extent seat of the synod.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Sword of the meek is quite unfair to aggro decks so unbanning should be the last resource. It may sound heretical, but banning of Wild Nacatl may be a good idea (unbanning Misstep would accomplish the same thing but it may be dangerous), mostly for aggro diversity reasons. A lot of players (myself included) hated this aspect of old Extended where everything aggro has been reduced to the Zoo deck for years thanks to the fetchlands and shocklands, much like what happened to control during the Vivid lands era. Of all Zoo cards, Nacatl is the card that gives it an uncanny clock and a ability to outperform any other aggro deck, since not even other decks' two drops can compare. Take out nacatl and suddenly the other aggro decks like Affinity, Merfolk, Elves or even White weenie don't look like strictly worse versions of Zoo. As a side benefit, control get an extra turn to breathe.
It isn't the one life its the fact that it is an additional locus land.
Also how is sword of the meek unfair for aggro. Several decks have ways to easily deal with it, and it's not effective until turn turn 4-5.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
You're making it sound as if control were going to sit and watch aggro do its stuff until the turn it lands the Foundry. Zoo goldfishes on turn four, yes but control is anything but a goldfish. It just takes two cards - removal, blockers, permission, any of them - to make through turn 4 or 5 and once the lock is on play it's quite hard to win through it even with artifact removal - we all remember this "in response to you targeting my foundry, make 4 - 5 thopters gain that much life". Aggro isn't much different from that Zoo decks present in the last large Extended season, and non - Dephts Thopter control crushed it, the only thing stopping Thopter control from being the best deck in the format being Thopter Dephts itself. 12Post wouldn't care about Foundry, but a banning it's probably on the way.