Here are all good sideboard cards against Twin that hinders them before they go off
Ghostly Prison
Norn's Annex
Leyline of Singularity
Kami of False Hope
Runed Halo (though you need 2 to be super effective)
Meddling Mage (same as Halo)
Root Maze
Engineered Explosives @ 0
Sultured Priest
These are all answers in the first 3 turns that can be played. Now the twin has to use up resources digging for the Echoing Truth/Repeal/Cryptic to get rid of your hate, this gives you time to build up a good defense or win.
Dismember
Combust
Sudden Spoiling
Sudden Death
Sudden Shock (Pestermite/Kiki only)
Nature's Claim (Twin only)
Krosan Grip
Echoing Truth
Echoing Decay
Again, the matchup would be better if people didn't have to play cards like Plow Under and Bad Moon in sb to try and hose the 1 matchup (though it's not performing well) they fear the most.
Dark Depths is a turn 2, 2 card combo, that will never happen, it’s almost two turns faster than 12 post and what WotC wanted the tempo of decks to be played at.
Except that my T2 combo (that can't attack until T3 (unlike Shoal)) can be stopped by
Path to Exile
Echoing Truth
Repeal @0
Boomerang
Condemn
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Ghost Quarter
Well, remember PT austin? When dark depths was the new thing? That the thopter depths still didn't exist? At that time there were thopter decks. And they weren't that good. Now there is spellskite, yes, but other decks have gotten good cards too.
Remember Worlds? When everyone realized that the Thopter control deck was the best deck in the format? The problem with the Thopter Combo is that it gives control far too much padding against Aggro and too much inevitability since the combo is extremely hard to stop outside of Leyline of the Void and Extirpate.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
This is absolutely backwards. SFM is the engine that makes batterskull powerful just in the same way that cloudpost is the engine that makes emrakul and any other fatty that can be hard casted into play broken. You have to run very narrow cards to beat this deck, thus it is a problem in the meta.
1. Yes he was getting it backwards, BUT:
2. You have to run very narrow cards to beat EMRAKUL + EYE, not the deck. I think people here are confusing good with broken. Without those two, and possibly the other mythic drazis, 12post would still be GOOD. Probably tier 1 or close to, yes. But it wouldn't be broken, as far as I can tell.
2. You have to run very narrow cards to beat EMRAKUL + EYE, not the deck. I think people here are confusing good with broken. Without those two, and possibly the other mythic drazis, 12post would still be GOOD. Probably tier 1 or close to, yes. But it wouldn't be broken, as far as I can tell.
Which is what I've been saying.
I want to get into 12post myself, but without Emrakul (i just don't like that card, personal taste.)
However if Bitterblossom goes - I'm definitely sleeving up my faeries for the box tourney coming up soon.
2. You have to run very narrow cards to beat EMRAKUL + EYE, not the deck. I think people here are confusing good with broken. Without those two, and possibly the other mythic drazis, 12post would still be GOOD. Probably tier 1 or close to, yes. But it wouldn't be broken, as far as I can tell.
So instead of banning Cloudpost (which would kill the deck), you think that banning Emrakul, Eye, the other Eldrazi? So banning 4-5 cards over banning 1 is the right answer? Also, their creature package (not including ramping) would go from
4 P Titan
3 Emrakul
1 Kozilek
1 Ulamog
to
4 P Titan
3 Sundering Titan
2 Terastodon
And you are really no better off. On T4 they will be destroying a majority of your mana base.
^ Which is why they should ban through the breach and eye of ugin. There won't be a way to reliably get emrakul on the table before turn 5 even with cloudpost. What are the chances of getting 3 out of the 4 cloudposts in your deck on the table by turn 4? Through the breach is what makes 12post go from good to broken. Anybody who thinks cloudpost should be banned just hates 12 post period and doesn't care about the health of the meta. The meta is perfectly fine with 12 post in existence. If you don't believe me, just look at the top 8 decks since PT Philly. Breachpost hasn't done much because people are starting to figure out ways to beat it. I want a diverse meta, and banning cloudpost because control players are *****ing and whining won't help the meta one bit.
@ UBwins: That is a rant of a player that invested in 12post and doesn't want to lose his deck.
See how calling out certain players for their ranting does little to the discussion?
Anyway, banning TtB will not slow them down. They will move to Summoning Trap. A possible T2 Eldrazi/Titan will end the game vs control. They can ramp up to 6 mana by T3-4 to Hard Cast it. It doesn't give them haste, but haste doesn't matter when you do it EoT of opponent's turn.
The meta is not healthy at all. When combo runs rampant, it's not healthy. Only control w/ balance that out. The only way to allow a control deck a chance to ban a piece of 12post. Emrakul or Cloudpost. I prefer the latter because the deck is still stupid w/ Cloudpost. A T4 Sundering Titan destroying 2-3 of your lands will win the game (virtually the same as Emrakul). If you kill it, you lose the rest of your mana base.
Remember Worlds? When everyone realized that the Thopter control deck was the best deck in the format? The problem with the Thopter Combo is that it gives control far too much padding against Aggro and too much inevitability since the combo is extremely hard to stop outside of Leyline of the Void and Extirpate.
I don't remember that. During worlds didn't thopter depths already exist??
The more I read the MTGO Daily events and look at my local tourneys, the less and less I think much needs to be done to Cloudpost decks. They're losing in droves now. Control is catching up (altho, it has some pretty weird builds still thanks to Blazing Shoal decks), and Zoo has nicely adapted into Catfish. Banning Emrakul is about the only thing that I see needs to be done.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
i am angry that someone always say have solution on twins so that no need banned.8 copies of combos , so we need 8 cards solution?and twins also have sideboard to kill solution easily.
does all the banned card no solution ?
no, they all are have solution , but they are easy to success.so they are banned.
unban all the banned card that has solution , then you can see your sideboard is not enough to put all the solution for so many deck.
you put 12 ld spell in sideboard ,then u cant afraid 12 post any more. all the post will be died.
I don't remember that. During worlds didn't thopter depths already exist??
No, Tezz Foundary, the precursor to DDT, was the break out deck of Worlds Extended with Multiple 6-0 and 5-1 finishes. Not to mention the combo was everywhere at the top tables.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Why would they ban Cranial Plating and Tempered Steel? How do they lead to a turn 3 win? What hand?
EDIT:
The Atog-Fling version is a consistant turn 3 deck. Tempered Steel builds are a turn 4-5+ deck, both use Cranial Plating, you do the math.
Plating:
T1: Citadel, Thopter, Mox, Plating, Frogmite
T2: Nexus, Equip, activate Nexus and swing for 8
T3: Swing for 9. This generally ends games. Most decks will do 1-5 damage to themselves in the first 3 turns.
i am angry that someone always say have solution on twins so that no need banned.8 copies of combos , so we need 8 cards solution?and twins also have sideboard to kill solution easily.
does all the banned card no solution ?
no, they all are have solution , but they are easy to success.so they are banned.
unban all the banned card that has solution , then you can see your sideboard is not enough to put all the solution for so many deck.
you put 12 ld spell in sideboard ,then u cant afraid 12 post any more. all the post will be died by your thinking
This post gave me a headache trying to read. Twin is like Melira, a very redundant combo deck. Melira is stoppable, so Twin is also stoppable. You have to outplay your opponent. You can't just always use the hypothetical "they have answer x for your solution y" argument. The deck is good, but easily disruptable.
No, Tezz Foundary, the precursor to DDT, was the break out deck of Worlds Extended with Multiple 6-0 and 5-1 finishes. Not to mention the combo was everywhere at the top tables.
Well, I think that old extended format was much slower than the current modern. We should think about why the thopter combo in legacy is not good enough, even with the blue power cards and countertop. The reason is legacy is too fast for thopters I think. And same in modern IMO.
This post gave me a headache trying to read. Twin is like Melira, a very redundant combo deck. Melira is stoppable, so Twin is also stoppable. You have to outplay your opponent. You can't just always use the hypothetical "they have answer x for your solution y" argument. The deck is good, but easily disruptable.
2 card combo is different to 3 card combo
melira need 3 card but twin only need 2.
many banned cards also have answer and need 2 card only.dark depths also be stoppable by path to exile and any unsummon card.
Yeah I agree (stated that a few pages back) that the environment is too fast to care if you get a combo online T4-5 that gains you 3-4 life when they are swinging w/ 4/5's and 7/7 Knights. Even 6/6 Titans w/ trample.
many banned cards also have answer and need 2 card only.dark depths also be stoppable by path to exile and any unsummon card.
I wasn't saying that Melira was as fast (though it can go off T3 (i've done it a few times). I'm saying the deck builds are the same. They are very redundant and can fight off hate well. Twin uses countermagic while Melira uses creature tutors. You are supporting my statement that I think DD can come off the banlist.
1. It's not near as redundant as Twin/Pyro/Melira. So the chances of going off T2 is VERY SLIM.
2. It's easily hateable in all colors.
3. The pieces by themselves are not very good (Hexmage/Depths)
4. It would open up another deck in the Meta (either BU Control variants or Eva Depths)
5. Emrakul comes down T5 average. This would probably be the avg for Depths (besides the random nut hands).
Here's an example of probably what a Eva Depths Deck would look like
The deck is not that brutal and would win on avg maybe T6. Obviously BU would just be discard and countermagic to protect the token, but it would be slower.
Okay, firstly, I did explicitly suggest the banning of Eye of Ugin as well. So you can't really contest my argument using the interaction of Eye with Sundering Titan. That said:
1. Yes, if you let one of those fatties resolve, the game is probably over. The difference is you ACTUALLY HAVE A CHANCE TO NOT LET THEM RESOLVE. I'm not saying this deck shouldn't be able to power out game-swingy fatties, I'm saying Emrakul is TOO powerful and TOO game-swingy (due to the combination of amazing abilities, not the least of which is UNCOUNTERABLE), a distinction that has no true precedent in Wizards rulings.
2. Dualands. You're damn right Titan is good against them. He was good against them in old extended as well (I played old 8post, I know). He's not so hot against posts, core-set duals, filter lands, vivid lands, man-lands, and mono basics. And he will usually kill at least one of your lands as well. Why is it a problem that he preys on ravnica land bases?
3. Describing these creatures as "ultimatum creatures" is very apt, I think. Such creatures have always existed in some form or fashion. Just like any threat, if you don't have the answer, you are in trouble. That's okay though, as history shows us that Wizards believes that is a fundamental part of the game. And the answers are out there. But not, by and large, for Eldrazi with Eye of Ugin.
I powered out Sundering Titan turn 4 many times in old 8post, often with crushing results against my opponent's landbase. No one cried broken then. That's probably because most of the time, after the dust settled, they just calmly untapped, drew a card, and swung around titan with their critters to seal the game.
Also, like leh1982 said: Torpor Orb is a completely real card.
Quoting myself here because it's the same argument I'd otherwise give you now.
"So instead of banning Cloudpost (which would kill the deck), you think that banning Emrakul, Eye, the other Eldrazi? So banning 4-5 cards over banning 1 is the right answer?"
--Yes. Problem? Also, maybe not Koz and Ula, still on the fence about those without Eye. I think banning (at most) 4 cards rather than 1 and saving a legitimate deck in the process is the correct thing to do.
"Also, their creature package (not including ramping) would go from
4 P Titan
3 Emrakul
1 Kozilek
1 Ulamog
to
4 P Titan
3 Sundering Titan
2 Terastodon
And you are really no better off. On T4 they will be destroying a majority of your mana base."
---Again, yes. Problem? That is the designated time at which combo decks are allowed to go off, and they just kill you. A single hard counterspell, trickbind, or any of any other number of cards prevents this. Unanswered, a fat guy ramped out SHOULD BE GOOD. Also, there are so, SO many good dual lands in this cardpool. Sundering Titan is good against only a few. If you build a ravnica mana base for a modern deck, you do so knowing that Sundering titan is in the format. Making your bed and then expecting things to be changed so you don't have to sleep in it is a bit much, in my opinion.
A lot of the discussion points in this thread have a fundamental misunderstanding of how and why Wizards bans cards. In looking over their unofficial policy on this matter (Because tight-lipped Wizards NEVER gives us any official, prescriptive statements on how they ban stuff), we can get some insight into what is likely to be banned next week.
I am proposing that Wizards will ban Cloudpost. Here are the reasons that I think this will happen, all based off of very minimal interpretation of a critical Modern article:
Although it's never fun when cards are banned, this is a slightly "shortsighted" view. If one deck is so powerful that it forces multiple other interesting decks out of playability, banning something from that deck is likely to raise the number of functionally playable cards in the format, despite reducing the number of theoretically allowed cards.
(Note: I changed one word in the above quote, "myopic" to "shortsighted", because we are discussing Magic cards, not studying for the GRE)
Based on this quote, we see that one of the chief factors that drives a ban is one deck edging other decks out of the metagame, or as Mr. LaPille says, "If one deck is so powerful that it forces multiple other interesting decks out of playability, banning something from that deck is likely to raise the number of functionally playable cards in the format". Naturally, this has big implications for a current format deck, Twelvepost, and how Wizards is likely to treat it.
So why does Cloudpost in particular deserve a ban? Why not Emrakul, Through the Breach, Amulet of Vigor, Green Sun's Zenith, Primeval Titan, etc.? Here is some strong precedent that suggests Cloudpost is getting the axe. First, let me restate a reason about why Twelvepost is getting a ban leveled against it. This is again taken from Mr. LaPille's article:
Re: Valakut banning
It also shares many characteristics of the strongest combination decks in Magic's history, as it is almost entirely lands, mana acceleration, and card drawing.
All three of these qualities are shared by Twelvepost. Look at the following simple facts: Twelvepost is ANOTHER land-based deck with lots of ramping, lots of inevitability, lots of card draw (or virtual card draw in Twelvepost's case), and a land-oriented strategy. The similarities are uncanny.
But again, why Cloudpost in particular? Take a look at this quote:
Players have occasionally done cool things with Scapeshift that don't involve Valakut, like building aggressive decks that use Plated Geopede and Steppe Lynx to turn Scapeshift into a pseudo-Hatred. However, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle doesn't do very many cool things on its own, and usually results in non-interactive combination kills any time it shows up. We chose to preserve the half of the combination that is more likely to produce interesting decks.
More than anything else, this is the reason Cloudpost is going to get banned. Cloudpost exists solely to ramp up an 8Post or 12Post deck. Every other card in that deck does cool things elsewhere. It doesn't take a big stretch of imagination to see that, but let me list out the possibilities:
-Vesuva: Copies your own Mutavault for extra beating in aggro, kills enemy Legendary Lands, copies Tectonic Edge for massive post turn 4 land destruction, etc.
-Through the Breach: A cool combo card that works in pure beatdown mode with Blightsteel Colossus or Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. It also works as part of an engine with Protean Hulk.
-Eye of Ugin: Can fish for ANY colorless creature in the format. Works as a kill tutor in Tron decks and in other ramp strategies that may one day exist.
Only Cloudpost is really limited in its applications. This is the "Valakut" of the present Modern format, and that is a problem for Wizards. With literally dozens of professional, respected players calling for Cloudpost's banning, along with the reasons cited above, I think we can look ahead to a Cloudpost banning with pretty serious certainty.
(NOTE: By the same logic, Glimmerpost is an equally likely ban target, but I think Wizards errs on the side of removing format warping strategies rather than just nerfing them. Moreover, Cloudpost is the most obvious offender in the deck, so it is more likely to receive their ire).
Your plating example kills on turn 4 (as I said) and your tempered steel hand is unlikely, bordering on impossible, when you consider most TS builds don’t even run Frogmite and it folds to: counterspells, discard, artifact/creature/enchantment removal, blockers, a burn spell, etc.
The Plating example would result in an concession on that turn most likely (unless the opponent was holding an answer).
The only counter that would stop the T2 Steel would be Spell Pierce. But you are going off hypotheticals. I'm pointing out (and successfully) that Plating and Steel could win T3. Replace Frogmite w/ Menmite (it's 1 less damage) on T2, still resulting in you losing 13 life on T2 and winning on T3. They also play Burn and PTE to clear the way.
You asked for me to show you hands that could win on T2-3 w/ Plating and Steel and I did.
1. 12post is not even dominating even with through the breach
2. I tell ya, they ban cloudpost and control continues to suck/not suck the same way it is doing now.
Humans love simplification, they say control sucks because of cloudpost and there you go.
12post is not putting up good numbers because combo is rampant. They are winning by T3-4. How are people not getting this? 12post avg domination turn is T5-6 when they are either breaching or hardcasting Emrakul. 12post dominates decks that have to sb against it. Combo will remain strong until a Permissions Control (not Rock) can gain a foot in the door. It can't until 12post is null and void. That's how it works, simple.
12post is not putting up good numbers because combo is rampant. They are winning by T3-4. How are people not getting this? 12post avg domination turn is T5-6 when they are either breaching or hardcasting Emrakul. 12post dominates decks that have to sb against it. Combo will remain strong until a Permissions Control (not Rock) can gain a foot in the door. It can't until 12post is null and void. That's how it works, simple.
So control decks are not played because they have a bad MU against 10%? of the field.
You know how many decks 12post is bad against? Yep, many too. Don't know the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the % of combo decks must be something near 50%.
So, a deck that has a bad MU against 50% of the field is still not letting control to be playable. Hmm.
Yes, through the breach is what gives 12post some more chances to beat combo. That's why I say ban through the breach.
But in my opinion, control's results are due principally to people not caring to test enough since they know the revision is near and control requires some extensive testings pro players do and then ppl just netdeck them.
Yes, through the breach is what gives 12post some more chances to beat combo. That's why I say ban through the breach.
I am not going to address the rest of your argument, because I don't want to crunch yet another set of numbers about Breachpost. I have crunched out about a dozen posts at this time, including a bunch in this thread, about how powerful Breachpost is and how MTGO is a bad indicator of format diversity and health.
But let's talk about Through the Breach. I strongly encourage you to read my post above about why Wizards bans cards. This is not a numbers based argument, because quite frankly Wizards does not always look at the numbers. This is a principle based argument, and there are a lot of rules and guidelines that Wizards follows in banning cards.
The reasons for banning Valakut translate very well into banning Cloudpost.
The reasons for not banning Scapeshift translate very well into not banning Through the Breach. Check out my above post, quoting Tom LaPille, for details.
And before some Wikipedia-educated armchair logician tries to accuse me of making the internet catch all "straw man" fallacy, understand that I am not making a logical proposition. I am just saying that Wizards banned Valakut for certain reasons, and those reasons also apply to Cloudpost. Similarly, Wizards did NOT ban Scapeshift for certain reasons, and those also apply to TtB. To me, this suggests that they will ban Cloudpost and leave TtB alone.
1. Yes, if you let one of those fatties resolve, the game is probably over. The difference is you ACTUALLY HAVE A CHANCE TO NOT LET THEM RESOLVE. I'm not saying this deck shouldn't be able to power out game-swingy fatties, I'm saying Emrakul is TOO powerful and TOO game-swingy (due to the combination of amazing abilities, not the least of which is UNCOUNTERABLE), a distinction that has no true precedent in Wizards rulings.
Uncounterability has no precedent in Wizards rulings...? What?
Do Gaea's Revenge and Thrun, the Last Troll not suddenly not exist? Being uncounterable is nothing new, Annahilator being untargetable by anything other than perminants, and a timewalk just for casting is what you should be complaining about.
I see through the breach as a problem regardless of deck type.
And I tell you, my experience with through the breachless 12post against control is not that favored to the post deck as many make it look like.
And again, I don't think "control" decks are gonna be suddenly viable even after a cloudpost ban.
Edit: oh and want to add that if those blue control decks I tested against had vision and jace... the MU would probably be 50%. They would only have to counter my titans and GSZ and control my top deck.
Ghostly Prison
Norn's Annex
Leyline of Singularity
Kami of False Hope
Runed Halo (though you need 2 to be super effective)
Meddling Mage (same as Halo)
Root Maze
Engineered Explosives @ 0
Sultured Priest
These are all answers in the first 3 turns that can be played. Now the twin has to use up resources digging for the Echoing Truth/Repeal/Cryptic to get rid of your hate, this gives you time to build up a good defense or win.
Dismember
Combust
Sudden Spoiling
Sudden Death
Sudden Shock (Pestermite/Kiki only)
Nature's Claim (Twin only)
Krosan Grip
Echoing Truth
Echoing Decay
Again, the matchup would be better if people didn't have to play cards like Plow Under and Bad Moon in sb to try and hose the 1 matchup (though it's not performing well) they fear the most.
Except that my T2 combo (that can't attack until T3 (unlike Shoal)) can be stopped by
Path to Exile
Echoing Truth
Repeal @0
Boomerang
Condemn
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Ghost Quarter
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
Remember Worlds? When everyone realized that the Thopter control deck was the best deck in the format? The problem with the Thopter Combo is that it gives control far too much padding against Aggro and too much inevitability since the combo is extremely hard to stop outside of Leyline of the Void and Extirpate.
Then I guess WotC will ban Blazing Shoal, Cranial Plating, and Tempered Steel cause all those result in T3 wins.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
1. Yes he was getting it backwards, BUT:
2. You have to run very narrow cards to beat EMRAKUL + EYE, not the deck. I think people here are confusing good with broken. Without those two, and possibly the other mythic drazis, 12post would still be GOOD. Probably tier 1 or close to, yes. But it wouldn't be broken, as far as I can tell.
Which is what I've been saying.
I want to get into 12post myself, but without Emrakul (i just don't like that card, personal taste.)
However if Bitterblossom goes - I'm definitely sleeving up my faeries for the box tourney coming up soon.
So instead of banning Cloudpost (which would kill the deck), you think that banning Emrakul, Eye, the other Eldrazi? So banning 4-5 cards over banning 1 is the right answer? Also, their creature package (not including ramping) would go from
4 P Titan
3 Emrakul
1 Kozilek
1 Ulamog
to
4 P Titan
3 Sundering Titan
2 Terastodon
And you are really no better off. On T4 they will be destroying a majority of your mana base.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
See how calling out certain players for their ranting does little to the discussion?
Anyway, banning TtB will not slow them down. They will move to Summoning Trap. A possible T2 Eldrazi/Titan will end the game vs control. They can ramp up to 6 mana by T3-4 to Hard Cast it. It doesn't give them haste, but haste doesn't matter when you do it EoT of opponent's turn.
The meta is not healthy at all. When combo runs rampant, it's not healthy. Only control w/ balance that out. The only way to allow a control deck a chance to ban a piece of 12post. Emrakul or Cloudpost. I prefer the latter because the deck is still stupid w/ Cloudpost. A T4 Sundering Titan destroying 2-3 of your lands will win the game (virtually the same as Emrakul). If you kill it, you lose the rest of your mana base.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
I don't remember that. During worlds didn't thopter depths already exist??
does all the banned card no solution ?
no, they all are have solution , but they are easy to success.so they are banned.
unban all the banned card that has solution , then you can see your sideboard is not enough to put all the solution for so many deck.
you put 12 ld spell in sideboard ,then u cant afraid 12 post any more. all the post will be died.
Plating:
T1: Citadel, Thopter, Mox, Plating, Frogmite
T2: Nexus, Equip, activate Nexus and swing for 8
T3: Swing for 9. This generally ends games. Most decks will do 1-5 damage to themselves in the first 3 turns.
Tempered Steel:
T1: Citadel, Thopter, Mox, Skirge, Pest, Frogmite
T2: Land, Tempered Steel - Swing for 14
This post gave me a headache trying to read. Twin is like Melira, a very redundant combo deck. Melira is stoppable, so Twin is also stoppable. You have to outplay your opponent. You can't just always use the hypothetical "they have answer x for your solution y" argument. The deck is good, but easily disruptable.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
Well, I think that old extended format was much slower than the current modern. We should think about why the thopter combo in legacy is not good enough, even with the blue power cards and countertop. The reason is legacy is too fast for thopters I think. And same in modern IMO.
2 card combo is different to 3 card combo
melira need 3 card but twin only need 2.
many banned cards also have answer and need 2 card only.dark depths also be stoppable by path to exile and any unsummon card.
I wasn't saying that Melira was as fast (though it can go off T3 (i've done it a few times). I'm saying the deck builds are the same. They are very redundant and can fight off hate well. Twin uses countermagic while Melira uses creature tutors. You are supporting my statement that I think DD can come off the banlist.
1. It's not near as redundant as Twin/Pyro/Melira. So the chances of going off T2 is VERY SLIM.
2. It's easily hateable in all colors.
3. The pieces by themselves are not very good (Hexmage/Depths)
4. It would open up another deck in the Meta (either BU Control variants or Eva Depths)
5. Emrakul comes down T5 average. This would probably be the avg for Depths (besides the random nut hands).
Here's an example of probably what a Eva Depths Deck would look like
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thoughseize
3 Smother
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Smallpox
2 Life from the Loam
3 Sylvan Scrying
The deck is not that brutal and would win on avg maybe T6. Obviously BU would just be discard and countermagic to protect the token, but it would be slower.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
Quoting myself here because it's the same argument I'd otherwise give you now.
"So instead of banning Cloudpost (which would kill the deck), you think that banning Emrakul, Eye, the other Eldrazi? So banning 4-5 cards over banning 1 is the right answer?"
--Yes. Problem? Also, maybe not Koz and Ula, still on the fence about those without Eye. I think banning (at most) 4 cards rather than 1 and saving a legitimate deck in the process is the correct thing to do.
"Also, their creature package (not including ramping) would go from
4 P Titan
3 Emrakul
1 Kozilek
1 Ulamog
to
4 P Titan
3 Sundering Titan
2 Terastodon
And you are really no better off. On T4 they will be destroying a majority of your mana base."
---Again, yes. Problem? That is the designated time at which combo decks are allowed to go off, and they just kill you. A single hard counterspell, trickbind, or any of any other number of cards prevents this. Unanswered, a fat guy ramped out SHOULD BE GOOD. Also, there are so, SO many good dual lands in this cardpool. Sundering Titan is good against only a few. If you build a ravnica mana base for a modern deck, you do so knowing that Sundering titan is in the format. Making your bed and then expecting things to be changed so you don't have to sleep in it is a bit much, in my opinion.
I am proposing that Wizards will ban Cloudpost. Here are the reasons that I think this will happen, all based off of very minimal interpretation of a critical Modern article:
Here is a quote from Tom LaPille's "Welcome to the Modern World" article (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/155)
(Note: I changed one word in the above quote, "myopic" to "shortsighted", because we are discussing Magic cards, not studying for the GRE)
Based on this quote, we see that one of the chief factors that drives a ban is one deck edging other decks out of the metagame, or as Mr. LaPille says, "If one deck is so powerful that it forces multiple other interesting decks out of playability, banning something from that deck is likely to raise the number of functionally playable cards in the format". Naturally, this has big implications for a current format deck, Twelvepost, and how Wizards is likely to treat it.
So why does Cloudpost in particular deserve a ban? Why not Emrakul, Through the Breach, Amulet of Vigor, Green Sun's Zenith, Primeval Titan, etc.? Here is some strong precedent that suggests Cloudpost is getting the axe. First, let me restate a reason about why Twelvepost is getting a ban leveled against it. This is again taken from Mr. LaPille's article:
All three of these qualities are shared by Twelvepost. Look at the following simple facts: Twelvepost is ANOTHER land-based deck with lots of ramping, lots of inevitability, lots of card draw (or virtual card draw in Twelvepost's case), and a land-oriented strategy. The similarities are uncanny.
But again, why Cloudpost in particular? Take a look at this quote:
More than anything else, this is the reason Cloudpost is going to get banned. Cloudpost exists solely to ramp up an 8Post or 12Post deck. Every other card in that deck does cool things elsewhere. It doesn't take a big stretch of imagination to see that, but let me list out the possibilities:
-Vesuva: Copies your own Mutavault for extra beating in aggro, kills enemy Legendary Lands, copies Tectonic Edge for massive post turn 4 land destruction, etc.
-Through the Breach: A cool combo card that works in pure beatdown mode with Blightsteel Colossus or Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. It also works as part of an engine with Protean Hulk.
-Eye of Ugin: Can fish for ANY colorless creature in the format. Works as a kill tutor in Tron decks and in other ramp strategies that may one day exist.
Only Cloudpost is really limited in its applications. This is the "Valakut" of the present Modern format, and that is a problem for Wizards. With literally dozens of professional, respected players calling for Cloudpost's banning, along with the reasons cited above, I think we can look ahead to a Cloudpost banning with pretty serious certainty.
(NOTE: By the same logic, Glimmerpost is an equally likely ban target, but I think Wizards errs on the side of removing format warping strategies rather than just nerfing them. Moreover, Cloudpost is the most obvious offender in the deck, so it is more likely to receive their ire).
-ktkenshinx-
The Plating example would result in an concession on that turn most likely (unless the opponent was holding an answer).
The only counter that would stop the T2 Steel would be Spell Pierce. But you are going off hypotheticals. I'm pointing out (and successfully) that Plating and Steel could win T3. Replace Frogmite w/ Menmite (it's 1 less damage) on T2, still resulting in you losing 13 life on T2 and winning on T3. They also play Burn and PTE to clear the way.
You asked for me to show you hands that could win on T2-3 w/ Plating and Steel and I did.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
2. I tell ya, they ban cloudpost and control continues to suck/not suck the same way it is doing now.
Humans love simplification, they say control sucks because of cloudpost and there you go.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
So control decks are not played because they have a bad MU against 10%? of the field.
You know how many decks 12post is bad against? Yep, many too. Don't know the numbers, but I'm pretty sure the % of combo decks must be something near 50%.
So, a deck that has a bad MU against 50% of the field is still not letting control to be playable. Hmm.
Yes, through the breach is what gives 12post some more chances to beat combo. That's why I say ban through the breach.
But in my opinion, control's results are due principally to people not caring to test enough since they know the revision is near and control requires some extensive testings pro players do and then ppl just netdeck them.
I am not going to address the rest of your argument, because I don't want to crunch yet another set of numbers about Breachpost. I have crunched out about a dozen posts at this time, including a bunch in this thread, about how powerful Breachpost is and how MTGO is a bad indicator of format diversity and health.
But let's talk about Through the Breach. I strongly encourage you to read my post above about why Wizards bans cards. This is not a numbers based argument, because quite frankly Wizards does not always look at the numbers. This is a principle based argument, and there are a lot of rules and guidelines that Wizards follows in banning cards.
The reasons for banning Valakut translate very well into banning Cloudpost.
The reasons for not banning Scapeshift translate very well into not banning Through the Breach. Check out my above post, quoting Tom LaPille, for details.
And before some Wikipedia-educated armchair logician tries to accuse me of making the internet catch all "straw man" fallacy, understand that I am not making a logical proposition. I am just saying that Wizards banned Valakut for certain reasons, and those reasons also apply to Cloudpost. Similarly, Wizards did NOT ban Scapeshift for certain reasons, and those also apply to TtB. To me, this suggests that they will ban Cloudpost and leave TtB alone.
-ktkenshinx-
Uncounterability has no precedent in Wizards rulings...? What?
Do Gaea's Revenge and Thrun, the Last Troll not suddenly not exist? Being uncounterable is nothing new, Annahilator being untargetable by anything other than perminants, and a timewalk just for casting is what you should be complaining about.
And I tell you, my experience with through the breachless 12post against control is not that favored to the post deck as many make it look like.
And again, I don't think "control" decks are gonna be suddenly viable even after a cloudpost ban.
Edit: oh and want to add that if those blue control decks I tested against had vision and jace... the MU would probably be 50%. They would only have to counter my titans and GSZ and control my top deck.