I never play a Goyf unless he is a 2/3 with a guarantee to be bigger that turn, just like I never play a Knight of the Reliquary unless it is getting +2/+2 automatically. There are some situations to consider otherwise but that is my general rule of thumb.
I was playing mono green 12 post. I was on the play:
Turn 1: stomping ground, wild nacatl Him: cloudpost
Turn 2: plains, swing for 3, wild nacatl, loam lion. Him: forest, explore, cloudpost
Turn 3: goblin guide, swing for 10, play steppe linx. Him: forest, primeval titan, double glimmerpost, go to 15
Turn 4: Land, swing for 12, he blocks a nacatl, takes 9 to bring him to 6. I have 1 bolt in hand and bolt his primeval titan. Him: primaval titan, double glimmerpost, gain 12 to go to 18, cast wurmcoil engine
Is there anyway for zoo to beat: T1 cloudpost, T2forest, explore, cloudpost, t3 forest, primeval titan, t4 primeval titan.
The only way i see to do it on the play is to always have that turn 3 fulminator mage or molten rain. And on the draw, i think that there is no way for our deck to win unless we mana tithe the first explore and follow that into molten rain-- but im not even sure about that.
I was playing mono green 12 post. I was on the play:
Turn 1: stomping ground, wild nacatl Him: cloudpost
Turn 2: plains, swing for 3, wild nacatl, loam lion. Him: forest, explore, cloudpost
Turn 3: goblin guide, swing for 10, play steppe linx. Him: forest, primeval titan, double glimmerpost, go to 15
Turn 4: Land, swing for 12, he blocks a nacatl, takes 9 to bring him to 6. I have 1 bolt in hand and bolt his primeval titan. Him: primaval titan, double glimmerpost, gain 12 to go to 18, cast wurmcoil engine
Is there anyway for zoo to beat: T1 cloudpost, T2forest, explore, cloudpost, t3 forest, primeval titan, t4 primeval titan.
The only way i see to do it on the play is to always have that turn 3 fulminator mage or molten rain. And on the draw, i think that there is no way for our deck to win unless we mana tithe the first explore and follow that into molten rain-- but im not even sure about that.
There's no easy answer to that question. I've had the best luck by sideboarding in 3-4 Stigma Lasher. I've been in the same situation as you many times, and it seems we can consistently race them down to 1-5 life before those g-posts start to become substantial. The lifegain is what allows them to win the race. Many people suggest LD or Blood Moon, but my opinion is that you have to win by turn 4-5 against this deck or you're simply not going to. Preventing the lifegain seems to level the playing field fairly well.
My other modern deck is mono-G 12-post... I can safely say that the inevitability of the deck is daunting, and Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon are garbage against lists running 4 Beast Within and other removal (which is now all of them). You can slow the deck down with LD, but unless your entire deck is based around it, you're just stalling the inevitable. The single most effective deck against 12-post is a deck that can beat its clock. Zoo can do it, but it needs to prevent the lifegain OR go with something that leans toward RDW that just has a faster clock. Additionally, boom // bust variants are often effective against 12-post if their topdeck is friendly to them.
I was playing mono green 12 post. I was on the play:
Turn 1: stomping ground, wild nacatl Him: cloudpost
Turn 2: plains, swing for 3, wild nacatl, loam lion. Him: forest, explore, cloudpost
Turn 3: goblin guide, swing for 10, play steppe linx. Him: forest, primeval titan, double glimmerpost, go to 15
Turn 4: Land, swing for 12, he blocks a nacatl, takes 9 to bring him to 6. I have 1 bolt in hand and bolt his primeval titan. Him: primaval titan, double glimmerpost, gain 12 to go to 18, cast wurmcoil engine
Is there anyway for zoo to beat: T1 cloudpost, T2forest, explore, cloudpost, t3 forest, primeval titan, t4 primeval titan.
The only way i see to do it on the play is to always have that turn 3 fulminator mage or molten rain. And on the draw, i think that there is no way for our deck to win unless we mana tithe the first explore and follow that into molten rain-- but im not even sure about that.
More land destruction type effects: blood moon, magus of the moon, boom bust, fulminator mage, ghost quarter, etc
Life gain prevention effects : leyline of punishment, everlasting affliction, stigma lasher, rain of gore.
I was playing mono green 12 post. I was on the play:
Turn 1: stomping ground, wild nacatl Him: cloudpost
Turn 2: plains, swing for 3, wild nacatl, loam lion. Him: forest, explore, cloudpost
Turn 3: goblin guide, swing for 10, play steppe linx. Him: forest, primeval titan, double glimmerpost, go to 15
Turn 4: Land, swing for 12, he blocks a nacatl, takes 9 to bring him to 6. I have 1 bolt in hand and bolt his primeval titan. Him: primaval titan, double glimmerpost, gain 12 to go to 18, cast wurmcoil engine
Is there anyway for zoo to beat: T1 cloudpost, T2forest, explore, cloudpost, t3 forest, primeval titan, t4 primeval titan.
The only way i see to do it on the play is to always have that turn 3 fulminator mage or molten rain. And on the draw, i think that there is no way for our deck to win unless we mana tithe the first explore and follow that into molten rain-- but im not even sure about that.
Boom//bust. In my testing you can very easily drop a turn 1 stomping grounds, noble heirarch, then turn 2 boom//bust your fetch and his land. your at 3 mana hes at none.
Also I highly dont suggest running fast zoo in this format. the burn isnt there to back it up (Price of progress, fireblast, chainlightning) Midrange Boom//bust is where its at. It makes challice of the void hurt you but not a loss.
Really bent towards playing boom/bust zoo. Cascading into Bust with Bloodbraid Elf seems like it's game over against just about any deck as long as you have any sort of board presence. Anyway, still waiting on picking up my last and final Goyf. With only 3 for the time being, my deck is looking like
I'm curious to it's viability. Also I concur with the decision to run boom//bust variant of zoo. It has an incredible matchup against tron/post. Not only that but it has a strong matchup against most decks that overextend their manabases.
You still need lasher against mono-white control though. Recurring life-gain creatures is a complete pain.
In legacy for little zoo I run 22 lands and Ive got no problem. here the format is slower so I suggest going a little bigger or mid range and running 23 lands.
So far what Ive found for modern, if your running midrange zoo you should run 2 of each dual land, 10-11 fetches and one of each basic. that leaves you 3-4 lands to play around with. I suggest a tree top village and 2 ghost quarters. those seem like the right numbers to me. You could do 3 groves if you want, or a rageing ravine or what ever. Its really up to you how you want to shape it.
For little zoo 21 lands is probably enough, but 22 is the number I suggest (its better to have land then not to drop the knight. Id suggest the same thing I did above, but I would cut the ghost quarters. Basicly you want your lands to be lands, not much else.
As for the debate, I still think there is alot aways to go for zoo, but little doesnt seem to be one of it. Reason being is every one knows zoo is a strong deck, if not the strongest. Anyone who doesnt start their sideboard (And Ive seen enough meta calls of people doing it maindecked) with 4 challice of the void is crazy. When you got turn one, land turn 2 chalice. And suddenly your whole hand is pretty useless, your ganna wish you made your deck with less onedrops.
I'm curious to it's viability. Also I concur with the decision to run boom//bust variant of zoo. It has an incredible matchup against tron/post. Not only that but it has a strong matchup against most decks that overextend their manabases.
You still need lasher against mono-white control though. Recurring life-gain creatures is a complete pain.
I did. Fireblasting yourself when your in need for a land is pretty bad. Even shocking yourself for a basic sucks. There are alot of games turn 3 your at 15. (Turn 1 you fetched a dual untapped, turn 2 untapped dual). you really dont want to loose more life then that off of lands, every point counts.
Thats the first big issue. The second is what your fighting is so narrow. Twin is really bad in a world of dragonstorm combo. Melria is a pretty easy win to us as will.
The last, and biggest issue, is what would you replace? pridemage? A more valuable answer to better decks? Knight, a super beater you shouldnt get rid of? Or gaddock or cannonest, your answer to combo (then replacing it with a much more narrow combo answer).
I like burning tree because Im partial to Rav things. But this is a spot where unless what it answers is more prevalent in your meta then anything, I dont think you should do. I encourage you too keep thinking out of the box, but also look to legacy, a format much less narrow then this and gaddock is the answer.
as for mono white, its just a deck thats going to be hard to beat. Unlike mono white, we really dont get much of a hoser (While they get everything they need...) If only Anarchy was legal. instead I suggest maybe flashfires along with lifegain hate. Probably leyline at this point because well, it starts turn 0
I still think Boom/Bust zoo is the way to go right now. I can have turn 2 blood moon and even if Mono G12 post plays Beast Within, it still buys that little extra time you need. Blood moon and turn 3-4 BBE into Bust are great ways to battle 12 post. Because of the large portion of the metagame that is 12post, Boom/Bust zoo is the best build of zoo. If the meta shifts, our zoo builds have to follow.
See, I don't like leyline. Sure, you might be able to drop it turn 1, but that's not really when you need it, and its effect only lasts as long as it's on the board. Stigma Lasher, on the other hand, is cheaper (frequently), swings for damage, and permanently shuts down lifegain whether he sticks around or not.
Yeah, I would stay away from Leyline. It is pretty narrow and is only effective if it's dropped turn 1. Stigma Lasher could be good but do we really need it?
See, I don't like leyline. Sure, you might be able to drop it turn 1, but that's not really when you need it, and its effect only lasts as long as it's on the board. Stigma Lasher, on the other hand, is cheaper (frequently), swings for damage, and permanently shuts down lifegain whether he sticks around or not.
as much as I wanna swing with the dude and go AHA! hes too situation. Hate bear/utility are effective because They have the effect and can deal damnage. effective hate bears:
Magus of the moon
Gaddock tag
Effective utility dudes
Pridemage
dark confidant
Why are they effective? They have their effect, and as a bonus deal damage (Magus is blood moon on a stick, as the phrase goes) But slasher isnt. Hes a creature that needs to deal damange to be effective. He is a situational hatebear. I think thats huge. (Upside is his effect lasts forever once it hits, even when blasted away)
I am running Scab-Clan Mauler maindeck currently as an aggressive turn two play over Qasali Pridemage. I am mainly attacking with more then one creature so exalted is irrelevant, and it is also a bit faster and has some evasion.
Mauler, Watchwolf or any other 2cc 3/3 doesn't make much sense if you're running them over Green Sun's Zenith. GSZ can get your 3/3 for 1G (nacatl) as well as having multiple other aplications.
BBE is really only played in Boom/Bust zoo because it is a little to slow for other zoo decks and there are better options like Elspeth as a 1-2 of. Most zoo decks top out with Knight of the Reliquary.
I'm trying to maximize my Kavu Predators in this deck. A 2/2 trampler that can grow quickly is great to have in the Zoo mirror, and I'm expecting a ton of Zoo mirrors here in the beginning. It also let's me bring in synergistic cards from my sideboard like Nature's Claim and Condemn. I have never disliked an opening hand with this deck. It always has something to do right away and a long-term plan. What do you guys think?
I still see BBE as being awesome and with hierarch in the deck you can cast him turn three into the KotR or Thoctar ...but even if you cast it into a bolt its just pure value of the card since it is a CA in a agro and still can deliver beats, thats just imho
Those are all possibilities but how about the times you casacade into a GSZ or a Path to Exile against an opponent with no creatures, not very good value then. BBE is played in Boom/Bust because it can cascade into broken stuff like turn 3 Bust. People have talked about playing her in zoo since this thread started but to me she is kind of weak in all other builds of zoo.
ye i got this little budget issue, I will get them eventually but I just wanned to see if it can work. Also why is no primer playing BBE ? its like the top 3 creature in the format isnt it ?
I don't know how many times I've cascaded into Path with BBE with no targets/bad targets. Plus, a good control player will wait to see what you cascade into and just counter it if it's a bigger threat. I did run it for a while in my list, but I wasn't getting real consistent results. It is a 4-of in every boom // bust list, however. Including the one in the primer.
I'm trying to maximize my Kavu Predators in this deck. A 2/2 trampler that can grow quickly is great to have in the Zoo mirror, and I'm expecting a ton of Zoo mirrors here in the beginning. It also let's me bring in synergistic cards from my sideboard like Nature's Claim and Condemn. I have never disliked an opening hand with this deck. It always has something to do right away and a long-term plan. What do you guys think?
Peace,
-Troy
I think salts is a turn too slow against cloudpost. Id run molten rain over it. I think firey justice beats a dead horse. you got groves and condemn, that should be enough. Have to think "What if kavu is killed?" then healing them isnt a great option. Also. Id think about GSZ to be kavu 5,6,7,8. I do like the list though.
ye i got this little budget issue, I will get them eventually but I just wanned to see if it can work. Also why is no primer playing BBE ? its like the top 3 creature in the format isnt it ?
Look at it from a legacy Zoo standpoint. We are a deck of efficiency and consistency. Our mana is efficient. Our Burn is efficient. Our Creatures are efficient. How do we judge this: Burn= R Must be better then shock for its mana cost. EX:Lightning bolt, Chain lightning 1RMust be better then lightning Bolt for it mana EX:Lightning helix, Price of progress, Tribal flames, Punishing fire the latter two need some work to make possible. Tribal with watergrave deals 5. grove combo means your recurring bolt damange (2-1+2=3, rinse reuse.) xRAnything more should be completely awesome or "free" Ex: Fireblast
Lands=
Must be dual, with befits of being the actual lands for nactal EX:Sacred foundry, Plataea
Or Wasteland/tec edge proof (And not hurt in modern) Ex:Plains
Or not come in tapped and offer more than just mana EX:Horizon Canopy, ghost quarter.
Or mana fix EX: Fetches
Or Come in play tapped (which we hate) if it offers something very very effective
Ex: Tree top village
Lastly Creatures=
Must be higher power/toughness than casting cost: EX:Wild Nacatl, Kird ape, Goblin guide
Be utlity, while still having better or equal casting cost to power toughness. EX: Grim Lavamancer, Qasali Pridemage The former is a 1cmc 1/1 burn out let. the later is a 2/2 for 2 that pumps.
Be Hate while still having better or equal casting cost to power toughness. EX:Gaddock Teeg, Stigma Slasher
Or grow to lager then casting cost on its own. EX:Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary
Planeswalkers or anything over 4cmc
Must win you the game, consistently. We're talkin' jace broken here. Elspeth is almost jace broken.
Bloodbraid elf fails this in zoo because its a
4 mana 3/2 with haste and an extra spell (Inconsistent).
At four mana it fails the win you the game consistently test, it fails the power to toughness ratio test. And 4 is high for any not mid range zoo.
In a long long block of text, thats why its bad in smaller zoo. However, in boom bust (Made to make bloodbraid elf consistent) it passes the win you the game test, thus making it an ok answer.
I've been way unimpressed with Knight of the Reliquary, fwiw
wondering if people are feeling the same
I don't mean to insult, but are you playing her correctly?
Do you run 10+ fetchlands? (hopefully)
Do you use her ability at end of opponent's turn? (hopefully)
Do you think that because she's targeted constantly she's bad? (hopefully not)
Do you think that a threat that gets bigger and bigger is bad? (hopefully not)
Turn 1: stomping ground, wild nacatl Him: cloudpost
Turn 2: plains, swing for 3, wild nacatl, loam lion. Him: forest, explore, cloudpost
Turn 3: goblin guide, swing for 10, play steppe linx. Him: forest, primeval titan, double glimmerpost, go to 15
Turn 4: Land, swing for 12, he blocks a nacatl, takes 9 to bring him to 6. I have 1 bolt in hand and bolt his primeval titan. Him: primaval titan, double glimmerpost, gain 12 to go to 18, cast wurmcoil engine
Is there anyway for zoo to beat: T1 cloudpost, T2forest, explore, cloudpost, t3 forest, primeval titan, t4 primeval titan.
The only way i see to do it on the play is to always have that turn 3 fulminator mage or molten rain. And on the draw, i think that there is no way for our deck to win unless we mana tithe the first explore and follow that into molten rain-- but im not even sure about that.
Legacy:WUBG Jace Rock
Trade thread
Sig by: heroes of the plane studios
There's no easy answer to that question. I've had the best luck by sideboarding in 3-4 Stigma Lasher. I've been in the same situation as you many times, and it seems we can consistently race them down to 1-5 life before those g-posts start to become substantial. The lifegain is what allows them to win the race. Many people suggest LD or Blood Moon, but my opinion is that you have to win by turn 4-5 against this deck or you're simply not going to. Preventing the lifegain seems to level the playing field fairly well.
My other modern deck is mono-G 12-post... I can safely say that the inevitability of the deck is daunting, and Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon are garbage against lists running 4 Beast Within and other removal (which is now all of them). You can slow the deck down with LD, but unless your entire deck is based around it, you're just stalling the inevitable. The single most effective deck against 12-post is a deck that can beat its clock. Zoo can do it, but it needs to prevent the lifegain OR go with something that leans toward RDW that just has a faster clock. Additionally, boom // bust variants are often effective against 12-post if their topdeck is friendly to them.
CG
More land destruction type effects: blood moon, magus of the moon, boom bust, fulminator mage, ghost quarter, etc
Life gain prevention effects : leyline of punishment, everlasting affliction, stigma lasher, rain of gore.
Boom//bust. In my testing you can very easily drop a turn 1 stomping grounds, noble heirarch, then turn 2 boom//bust your fetch and his land. your at 3 mana hes at none.
Also I highly dont suggest running fast zoo in this format. the burn isnt there to back it up (Price of progress, fireblast, chainlightning) Midrange Boom//bust is where its at. It makes challice of the void hurt you but not a loss.
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Bloodbraid Elf
3x Tarmogoyf
2x Qasali Pridemage
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lightning Helix
4x Boom/Bust
That leaves me with one open slot. Where does it go? 23 Land? A singleton of a creature (was thinking Teeg), Blood Moon? I need ideas.
I'm curious to it's viability. Also I concur with the decision to run boom//bust variant of zoo. It has an incredible matchup against tron/post. Not only that but it has a strong matchup against most decks that overextend their manabases.
You still need lasher against mono-white control though. Recurring life-gain creatures is a complete pain.
So far what Ive found for modern, if your running midrange zoo you should run 2 of each dual land, 10-11 fetches and one of each basic. that leaves you 3-4 lands to play around with. I suggest a tree top village and 2 ghost quarters. those seem like the right numbers to me. You could do 3 groves if you want, or a rageing ravine or what ever. Its really up to you how you want to shape it.
For little zoo 21 lands is probably enough, but 22 is the number I suggest (its better to have land then not to drop the knight. Id suggest the same thing I did above, but I would cut the ghost quarters. Basicly you want your lands to be lands, not much else.
As for the debate, I still think there is alot aways to go for zoo, but little doesnt seem to be one of it. Reason being is every one knows zoo is a strong deck, if not the strongest. Anyone who doesnt start their sideboard (And Ive seen enough meta calls of people doing it maindecked) with 4 challice of the void is crazy. When you got turn one, land turn 2 chalice. And suddenly your whole hand is pretty useless, your ganna wish you made your deck with less onedrops.
Edit:
I did. Fireblasting yourself when your in need for a land is pretty bad. Even shocking yourself for a basic sucks. There are alot of games turn 3 your at 15. (Turn 1 you fetched a dual untapped, turn 2 untapped dual). you really dont want to loose more life then that off of lands, every point counts.
Thats the first big issue. The second is what your fighting is so narrow. Twin is really bad in a world of dragonstorm combo. Melria is a pretty easy win to us as will.
The last, and biggest issue, is what would you replace? pridemage? A more valuable answer to better decks? Knight, a super beater you shouldnt get rid of? Or gaddock or cannonest, your answer to combo (then replacing it with a much more narrow combo answer).
I like burning tree because Im partial to Rav things. But this is a spot where unless what it answers is more prevalent in your meta then anything, I dont think you should do. I encourage you too keep thinking out of the box, but also look to legacy, a format much less narrow then this and gaddock is the answer.
as for mono white, its just a deck thats going to be hard to beat. Unlike mono white, we really dont get much of a hoser (While they get everything they need...) If only Anarchy was legal. instead I suggest maybe flashfires along with lifegain hate. Probably leyline at this point because well, it starts turn 0
Thanks. That definitely seals it for me. I too am kind of partial to Rav Block stuff...and he was so beastly when he was standard legal...
You're definitely right. There's no place to put him...
Anytime. My suggestion if your partial to Rav Block. Run rav basic lands in your decks
CG
as much as I wanna swing with the dude and go AHA! hes too situation. Hate bear/utility are effective because They have the effect and can deal damnage. effective hate bears:
Magus of the moon
Gaddock tag
Effective utility dudes
Pridemage
dark confidant
Why are they effective? They have their effect, and as a bonus deal damage (Magus is blood moon on a stick, as the phrase goes) But slasher isnt. Hes a creature that needs to deal damange to be effective. He is a situational hatebear. I think thats huge. (Upside is his effect lasts forever once it hits, even when blasted away)
Mauler, Watchwolf or any other 2cc 3/3 doesn't make much sense if you're running them over Green Sun's Zenith. GSZ can get your 3/3 for 1G (nacatl) as well as having multiple other aplications.
www.moi-rai.com
I'm looking to try to add more syneriges to my Zoo deck. Here's a list I've been developing:
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Arid Mesa
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Stomping Ground
4 Temple Garden
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Punishing Fire
2 Fiery Justice
2 Condemn
3 Firespout
4 Nature's Claim
2 Sowing Salt
I'm trying to maximize my Kavu Predators in this deck. A 2/2 trampler that can grow quickly is great to have in the Zoo mirror, and I'm expecting a ton of Zoo mirrors here in the beginning. It also let's me bring in synergistic cards from my sideboard like Nature's Claim and Condemn. I have never disliked an opening hand with this deck. It always has something to do right away and a long-term plan. What do you guys think?
Peace,
-Troy
Those are all possibilities but how about the times you casacade into a GSZ or a Path to Exile against an opponent with no creatures, not very good value then. BBE is played in Boom/Bust because it can cascade into broken stuff like turn 3 Bust. People have talked about playing her in zoo since this thread started but to me she is kind of weak in all other builds of zoo.
I don't know how many times I've cascaded into Path with BBE with no targets/bad targets. Plus, a good control player will wait to see what you cascade into and just counter it if it's a bigger threat. I did run it for a while in my list, but I wasn't getting real consistent results. It is a 4-of in every boom // bust list, however. Including the one in the primer.
CG
I would cut a land for sure. and since your not running boom bust, Id cut a BBE for another hierarch.
But what lands are you using? and the side? Complete 75 is nessarry. I dont think a deck is a deck until it has a complete 75.
I think salts is a turn too slow against cloudpost. Id run molten rain over it. I think firey justice beats a dead horse. you got groves and condemn, that should be enough. Have to think "What if kavu is killed?" then healing them isnt a great option. Also. Id think about GSZ to be kavu 5,6,7,8. I do like the list though.
Look at it from a legacy Zoo standpoint. We are a deck of efficiency and consistency. Our mana is efficient. Our Burn is efficient. Our Creatures are efficient. How do we judge this:
Burn=
R Must be better then shock for its mana cost.
EX:Lightning bolt, Chain lightning
1RMust be better then lightning Bolt for it mana
EX:Lightning helix, Price of progress, Tribal flames, Punishing fire the latter two need some work to make possible. Tribal with watergrave deals 5. grove combo means your recurring bolt damange (2-1+2=3, rinse reuse.)
xRAnything more should be completely awesome or "free"
Ex: Fireblast
Lands=
Must be dual, with befits of being the actual lands for nactal
EX: Sacred foundry, Plataea
Or Wasteland/tec edge proof (And not hurt in modern)
Ex:Plains
Or not come in tapped and offer more than just mana
EX: Horizon Canopy, ghost quarter.
Or mana fix
EX: Fetches
Or Come in play tapped (which we hate) if it offers something very very effective
Ex: Tree top village
Lastly Creatures=
Must be higher power/toughness than casting cost:
EX: Wild Nacatl, Kird ape, Goblin guide
Be utlity, while still having better or equal casting cost to power toughness.
EX: Grim Lavamancer, Qasali Pridemage The former is a 1cmc 1/1 burn out let. the later is a 2/2 for 2 that pumps.
Be Hate while still having better or equal casting cost to power toughness.
EX: Gaddock Teeg, Stigma Slasher
Or grow to lager then casting cost on its own.
EX: Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary
Planeswalkers or anything over 4cmc
Must win you the game, consistently. We're talkin' jace broken here. Elspeth is almost jace broken.
Bloodbraid elf fails this in zoo because its a
4 mana 3/2 with haste and an extra spell (Inconsistent).
At four mana it fails the win you the game consistently test, it fails the power to toughness ratio test. And 4 is high for any not mid range zoo.
In a long long block of text, thats why its bad in smaller zoo. However, in boom bust (Made to make bloodbraid elf consistent) it passes the win you the game test, thus making it an ok answer.
But another choice is kavu/punishing grove build w/ busts and magus in sb
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Loam Lion
2 Grim Lavamancer
Instants
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
Legendary Creatures
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Molten Rain
1 Green Sun's Zenith
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Marsh Flats
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Ranger of Eos
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Path to Exile
1 Bojuka Bog
-Homer Simpson
wondering if people are feeling the same
I don't mean to insult, but are you playing her correctly?
Do you run 10+ fetchlands? (hopefully)
Do you use her ability at end of opponent's turn? (hopefully)
Do you think that because she's targeted constantly she's bad? (hopefully not)
Do you think that a threat that gets bigger and bigger is bad? (hopefully not)
Knight of the Reliquary is the biggest threat in the deck. Period.
CG