Is there anything that could substitute Goyf? I only have one so it's not worth it. Thinking in Dark Zoo.
If you have one Goyf, run it. And run 3 of either Jotun Grunt or Skinshifter in place of the rest until you can get em. Maybe even Watchwolf... In other words, no, there really isn't a good substitute for goyf.
If you have one Goyf, run it. And run 3 of either Jotun Grunt or Skinshifter in place of the rest until you can get em. Maybe even Watchwolf... In other words, no, there really isn't a good substitute for goyf.
i have a question for you, since alot of zoo decks are r/g/w, could woolly thoctar from alara block, be good for this deck, i mean, i use to run a deck with bloodbraid elf, and woolly thoctar and it wasnt nothing for me to play the elf and cascade into the thoctar
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EH? it happens....
awesome sig by heroes of the plane and xenoninja, thanks guys
i have a question for you, since alot of zoo decks are r/g/w, could woolly thoctar from alara block, be good for this deck, i mean, i use to run a deck with bloodbraid elf, and woolly thoctar and it wasnt nothing for me to play the elf and cascade into the thoctar
It's a *budget* substitute for Knight of the Reliquary, but it's definitely worse. KotR usually etb as a 4/4+, gets bigger, mana-fixes, and is easier to cast.
can someone add a whole "Budget goyf" thing to the primer? Every couple pages we'll be hit with that question (And it makes since, people not wanting legacy due to money but still wanting a wide meta.)
Im going to go test agaion now. I had no clue you could boom bust your fetch, nor you could cascade into bust!
can someone add a whole "Budget goyf" thing to the primer? Every couple pages we'll be hit with that question (And it makes since, people not wanting legacy due to money but still wanting a wide meta.)
Im going to go test agaion now. I had no clue you could boom bust your fetch, nor you could cascade into bust!
I would, except I'm not entirely sure budget discussions are appropriate in a Primer for a competitive format. I'll run it by a moderator.
I too wanted to run Bloodbraid Elf in my BB naya dec but I hated cascading into Green Sun's Zenith so I cut BB, although I really want to run it so I might have to cut a Zenith (running 3 main).
I too wanted to run Bloodbraid Elf in my BB naya dec but I hated cascading into Green Sun's Zenith so I cut BB, although I really want to run it so I might have to cut a Zenith (running 3 main).
I would cut all the zeniths and run 4 bloodbraids. Cascading into Boom/Bust allowing you to choose Bust is one of the most broken things the deck can do.
Indeed it is but I still would like to use Zenith to bust out my utitity dudes i.e Gaddock Teeg and Quasali Pridemage
I mean if I do cascade into it I can still play it for 0 right? getting Dryad Arbor I guess:rolleyes:
Indeed it is but I still would like to use Zenith to bust out my utitity dudes i.e Gaddock Teeg and Quasali Pridemage
I mean if I do cascade into it I can still play it for 0 right? getting Dryad Arbor I guess:rolleyes:
Doesn't look very reliable to me. How many maindecked Dryads are you planing to use in this case? In fact I have doubts about playning any dryads in modern.
I used to run both Bloodbraid Elf and GSZ in a legacy Big Zoo deck and it turned out to be not the best idea at all. I would run Elf in fast aggro list with Goblin Guides, Loam Lions, Kird Apes. GSZ is more suitable for midrange sort of deck, call it big or rubin zoo, with Noble Hierarchs and Kavu Predator perhaps.
I was wondering why nobody is using Browbeat as a roundabout way to replace Sylvan Library.
Browbeat doesn't replace Sylvan Library. Sylvan Library was great because it allowed library manipulation. You could always shuffle away the bad cards with your fetches.
Indeed it is but I still would like to use Zenith to bust out my utitity dudes i.e Gaddock Teeg and Quasali Pridemage
I mean if I do cascade into it I can still play it for 0 right? getting Dryad Arbor I guess:rolleyes:
I don't like GSZ either. It is horrible to cascade into and I don't really want to run any Dryad Arbors just incase. It could possible replace 1 main deck Qasali Pridemage but even that is suspect in my opinion.
For the boom/bust zoo lists I think people should still be running temporal isolation instead of path. The point of that version is mana denial a path just lets them get a basic land.
In the PtE vs Temp Isolation debate I dont run either but if I had to chose it would be PtE, even in Boom/Bust zoo. Path handles the few creatures we care about such as Primeval Titan in Mono G 12 post, Persist creatures in Melira combo, and Doran in Junk. All of them operate just fine with Temp Isolation on. I dont currently play any in my Boom/Bust zoo but 2 Path to Exile could make it in the sideboard if the metagame calls for it.
I am running Scab-Clan Mauler maindeck currently as an aggressive turn two play over Qasali Pridemage. I am mainly attacking with more then one creature so exalted is irrelevant, and it is also a bit faster and has some evasion.
Also, after some testing, Path to Exile has been great, and even with them getting the land, it is not a huge deal; it is a wash with a Boom, and also deals with pesky decks like Dragonstorm that can just auto-win with Bogardan Hellkite + Karthuus
I would, except I'm not entirely sure budget discussions are appropriate in a Primer for a competitive format. I'll run it by a moderator.
I would, simply because were going to have to keep answering that over and over again. That or if its not allowed, then I hope the admins will keep up with it.
I've moved green sun to the side. I think 2-3 there is fine as it allows one ofs to be used and cleans up redundancy. Well thats what Im hopeing anyways. Updated cleaned up list:
I think Joten grunt (i can never get that weird o) could deserve a mention in the primer as a possible meta hate considering he is grave hate on a big cheap body as he could be used if you are expecting to go against either a mirror zoo (where he messes with kotr and goyf) match and he also shuts down graveyard shenanigans with grove/punishing fire and crucible of worlds this will also stop people from asking about cheap goyf replacement.
Isn't Krosan Grip completely excellent right now with all the mindslaver dudes running around with posts?
I've suggested it. But with my greensun and pridemages, Ive been able to get that. One game a guy sided in a pithing needle against me so it when like "chalice of the void, pridemate, pithning needle" game 3 I sided out primemage in general so he had a wasted card. seemed to work
I have Krosan Grips in my sideboard. Even with Pridemage main board, Grip can handle the few things he cant. Also Grip cant be needled as was the case with the previous poster.
I would, simply because were going to have to keep answering that over and over again. That or if its not allowed, then I hope the admins will keep up with it.
I've moved green sun to the side. I think 2-3 there is fine as it allows one ofs to be used and cleans up redundancy. Well thats what Im hopeing anyways. Updated cleaned up list:
SB: 1 Path to Exile SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant SB: 2 Magus of the Moon SB: 3 Green Sun's Zenith SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer 3 opening
I really like you build and will def. be testing something very similar to it (-1 Boom//Bust -1 Goyf + 1 Path + 1 Gaddock Teeg)
I'm also going to try to get an Elspeth in there main.
Is Wild Nacatl REALLY necessary??? I know it fits in the Zoo theme but it just seems like sucha vanilla card! I just feel like we could get so much more value in those slots as our creature base is real good as is...
Also, has anyone tried using swords in this build??? I ask because Sword of Feast and Famine is such a beast!!!
Wild Nacatl makes the deck, if you're not playing Wild Nacatl you're not play Zoo anymore. Its probably the most efficient creature ever printed, it attacks for 3 on turn 2 and is bigger than pretty much everything in the format besides Goyf and Knight. Cutting Wild Nacatl would be like cutting Stoneforge Mystic or Jace from Stoneblade, Nacatl is Zoo's absolute best card just like SFM and Jace are for Stoneblade.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Yes. think about it this way. Kird ape was banned for being too strong at one point in time. Kird ape. a 1/1 for 1, or at best a 2/3 for one turn one. wild nacatl is a turn 1 2/2 for one, turn 2 3/3 for one. There ya go.
I think Im going to just link people to this post when they ask about "Tarmogoyf budget replacements" Hopefully this can be a indepth answer and save everyone some time explaining over and over again.
Could Scab-Clan Mauler be added in the deck in place of goyf for budget reasons.
just wondering if thats not better then some of the other options on the primmer
In this post I will be explaining why "da goyf" if a irreplaceable card, why it is so powerful, and what you can do to imperfectly replace him (Or her. Who knows)
Goyf is so powerful because he is a beater for 2 cmc. He easily gets to 4/5 with out much effort, but sees play as a 5/6 or even 6/7 at times. He is graveyard dependent, but on all Graves, which is huge. Many times you can cast a "squire goyf" turn 2. That is saying one fetch land probably hit the grave yard. Saying they put out a creature and you bolt it, and also they ponder, your looking at at turn 3 4/5 goyf. A Leatherback goyf. Pretty big.
So why does everyone want him? Low mana cost means he is a beater for all decks. He costs 1G meaning he can be splashed for, and he doesnt have a high color requirement. He's a good topdeck because when hes big (barring hate) he probably will be just as big, if not bigger late game. He gets big on his own, meaning you can go about your business, and he probably will grow all on his own with out you dedicating much thought to it. And thats the real key to him, thus in bold.
That covers why hes so powerful. Now on to why hes irreplaceable. Although there are many cards that do some of these things, none do it as well as tarmogoyf. Others do it less efficient (They cost more, dedicate more to making it happen, or cost more.) Its as simple as that.
Now how to replace him. It isnt as simple as "Fill gap with this", what you wanna do instead is to change up your gameplan a little bit. In Zoo speicifly heres what you can do. Id suggest choosing one.
2. Get a big body for cheap. couple options here. Leatherback behemoth- 4/5 your average goyf size. 3 green mana is tougher to pull off then youd think though Woolly Thoctar-5/4 that doesnt need the grave. Costs 3, means he comes online turn 4. that can stuck. His smaller butt means he might loose the knight/goyf war. Scab-Clan Mauler or Stormblood Berserker Dependent on you doing damage before summoning it. Garruk's Companion- worse then above but worth putting on this "all inclusive list" Keldon Marauders3/3 that will disapper but will leave a bloody trail before it goes Watchwolf used in very old zoo lists. replaced by goyf.
3. Specializing your game plan to fix it. Jötun Grunt- Makes their knights/goyfs smaller. It would make yours too (which can suck) and its harder to keep alive. Quirion Dryad gets bigger as you cast more spells. Burn is awesome with this. Bad top deck (it starts off as a 1/1 and you got to start all over) Kavu Predator Use with grove of the burnwillows. Combo with punishing fire. Has actually won a higher event.
4. Mana ramp instead- Use Noble Hierarch or something to ramp into bigger things
5. Burn. Use more burn. ect.
6. Get a hold of one or 2 tarmogoyfs and fill the hole with Green Sun Zenith. G/W Maverick in legacy does this.
7. Play a different deck. Zoo is good. Zoo is popular, thus it has a high demand. Supply and demand will make cards more expensive. He is used in legacy and modern. If budget is an issue, you should seriously consider building a different deck. Rouge decks tend to be more fun and give edges in "Unknown"
Lastly Im going to add a key words of how big the goyf is. I hope everyone uses this for fun sake.
Pridemage is there to help win goyf wars and so that we have maindeck artifact/enchantment destruction... Also I have a soft spot for mauler from back in my gruul days... But he just isn't good in this deck.
I would disagree that he isn't good, depending on the build. In testing, he seems to always come in as a 3/3, and then G2 if needed you pull for the Pridemage; if all I see is Goyfs, then I would MD the Pridemage but it appears that a lot of people in my meta will not be dropping the cash for them.
And another question, and point in running a one off sword ?
Do u hold him back and wait until he lands as a 3/4 just out of burn range, well if they want to use 2 cards to remove him so be it.
Well, it depends on what else I'm holding. If I'm holding 2 Nacatls, and my goyf is just going to come in as a 1/2, I'll drop the 2 Nacatls. I think it's pretty much a common sense situation most of the time. It's pretty common that goyf is already 2/3 by turn 2, tho. Even then... just makes more sense to play the Nacatls this turn.
If you have one Goyf, run it. And run 3 of either Jotun Grunt or Skinshifter in place of the rest until you can get em. Maybe even Watchwolf... In other words, no, there really isn't a good substitute for goyf.
CG
I see. Skinshifter is a good idea, as is Jötun Grunt. Thanks, I'll see what I can do!
awesome sig by heroes of the plane and xenoninja, thanks guys
It's a *budget* substitute for Knight of the Reliquary, but it's definitely worse. KotR usually etb as a 4/4+, gets bigger, mana-fixes, and is easier to cast.
CG
Im going to go test agaion now. I had no clue you could boom bust your fetch, nor you could cascade into bust!
I would, except I'm not entirely sure budget discussions are appropriate in a Primer for a competitive format. I'll run it by a moderator.
CG
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
I would cut all the zeniths and run 4 bloodbraids. Cascading into Boom/Bust allowing you to choose Bust is one of the most broken things the deck can do.
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain
I mean if I do cascade into it I can still play it for 0 right? getting Dryad Arbor I guess:rolleyes:
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
Doesn't look very reliable to me. How many maindecked Dryads are you planing to use in this case? In fact I have doubts about playning any dryads in modern.
I used to run both Bloodbraid Elf and GSZ in a legacy Big Zoo deck and it turned out to be not the best idea at all. I would run Elf in fast aggro list with Goblin Guides, Loam Lions, Kird Apes. GSZ is more suitable for midrange sort of deck, call it big or rubin zoo, with Noble Hierarchs and Kavu Predator perhaps.
Browbeat doesn't replace Sylvan Library. Sylvan Library was great because it allowed library manipulation. You could always shuffle away the bad cards with your fetches.
I don't like GSZ either. It is horrible to cascade into and I don't really want to run any Dryad Arbors just incase. It could possible replace 1 main deck Qasali Pridemage but even that is suspect in my opinion.
In the PtE vs Temp Isolation debate I dont run either but if I had to chose it would be PtE, even in Boom/Bust zoo. Path handles the few creatures we care about such as Primeval Titan in Mono G 12 post, Persist creatures in Melira combo, and Doran in Junk. All of them operate just fine with Temp Isolation on. I dont currently play any in my Boom/Bust zoo but 2 Path to Exile could make it in the sideboard if the metagame calls for it.
Also, after some testing, Path to Exile has been great, and even with them getting the land, it is not a huge deal; it is a wash with a Boom, and also deals with pesky decks like Dragonstorm that can just auto-win with Bogardan Hellkite + Karthuus
Hershey, PA
Standard Decks:
U/B Control
Legacy:
Dredge
Vintage:
Dredge
Cat Stax Fever
ANT
EDH:
TBD
I would, simply because were going to have to keep answering that over and over again. That or if its not allowed, then I hope the admins will keep up with it.
I've moved green sun to the side. I think 2-3 there is fine as it allows one ofs to be used and cleans up redundancy. Well thats what Im hopeing anyways. Updated cleaned up list:
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Boom // Bust
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
4 Arid Mesa
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Treetop Village
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Magus of the Moon
SB: 3 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
3 opening
Modern - Boom Zoo, Project X/Meleria, Grix megrim, U/W denial, dragonstorm
I've suggested it. But with my greensun and pridemages, Ive been able to get that. One game a guy sided in a pithing needle against me so it when like "chalice of the void, pridemate, pithning needle" game 3 I sided out primemage in general so he had a wasted card. seemed to work
I really like you build and will def. be testing something very similar to it (-1 Boom//Bust -1 Goyf + 1 Path + 1 Gaddock Teeg)
I'm also going to try to get an Elspeth in there main.
Is Wild Nacatl REALLY necessary??? I know it fits in the Zoo theme but it just seems like sucha vanilla card! I just feel like we could get so much more value in those slots as our creature base is real good as is...
Also, has anyone tried using swords in this build??? I ask because Sword of Feast and Famine is such a beast!!!
Thanks to Dantcg for the Sig!
just wondering if thats not better then some of the other options on the primmer
In this post I will be explaining why "da goyf" if a irreplaceable card, why it is so powerful, and what you can do to imperfectly replace him (Or her. Who knows)
Goyf is so powerful because he is a beater for 2 cmc. He easily gets to 4/5 with out much effort, but sees play as a 5/6 or even 6/7 at times. He is graveyard dependent, but on all Graves, which is huge. Many times you can cast a "squire goyf" turn 2. That is saying one fetch land probably hit the grave yard. Saying they put out a creature and you bolt it, and also they ponder, your looking at at turn 3 4/5 goyf. A Leatherback goyf. Pretty big.
So why does everyone want him? Low mana cost means he is a beater for all decks. He costs 1G meaning he can be splashed for, and he doesnt have a high color requirement. He's a good topdeck because when hes big (barring hate) he probably will be just as big, if not bigger late game. He gets big on his own, meaning you can go about your business, and he probably will grow all on his own with out you dedicating much thought to it. And thats the real key to him, thus in bold.
That covers why hes so powerful. Now on to why hes irreplaceable. Although there are many cards that do some of these things, none do it as well as tarmogoyf. Others do it less efficient (They cost more, dedicate more to making it happen, or cost more.) Its as simple as that.
Now how to replace him. It isnt as simple as "Fill gap with this", what you wanna do instead is to change up your gameplan a little bit. In Zoo speicifly heres what you can do. Id suggest choosing one.
1. Speed the deck up. Forget the goyf. Fill it with onedropers. Kird ape, Goblin Guide, Loam lion, wild nactl, Steppe Lynx.
2. Get a big body for cheap. couple options here.
Leatherback behemoth- 4/5 your average goyf size. 3 green mana is tougher to pull off then youd think though
Woolly Thoctar-5/4 that doesnt need the grave. Costs 3, means he comes online turn 4. that can stuck. His smaller butt means he might loose the knight/goyf war.
Scab-Clan Mauler or Stormblood Berserker Dependent on you doing damage before summoning it.
Garruk's Companion- worse then above but worth putting on this "all inclusive list"
Keldon Marauders3/3 that will disapper but will leave a bloody trail before it goes
Watchwolf used in very old zoo lists. replaced by goyf.
3. Specializing your game plan to fix it.
Jötun Grunt- Makes their knights/goyfs smaller. It would make yours too (which can suck) and its harder to keep alive.
Quirion Dryad gets bigger as you cast more spells. Burn is awesome with this. Bad top deck (it starts off as a 1/1 and you got to start all over)
Kavu Predator Use with grove of the burnwillows. Combo with punishing fire. Has actually won a higher event.
4. Mana ramp instead- Use Noble Hierarch or something to ramp into bigger things
5. Burn. Use more burn. ect.
6. Get a hold of one or 2 tarmogoyfs and fill the hole with Green Sun Zenith. G/W Maverick in legacy does this.
7. Play a different deck. Zoo is good. Zoo is popular, thus it has a high demand. Supply and demand will make cards more expensive. He is used in legacy and modern. If budget is an issue, you should seriously consider building a different deck. Rouge decks tend to be more fun and give edges in "Unknown"
Lastly Im going to add a key words of how big the goyf is. I hope everyone uses this for fun sake.
Goyf of Kher Keep- Kobolds of Kher Keep 0/1
Squire Goyf- squire 1/2
Knight Goyf- Knight Errant 2/3
Highland Goyf- Highland Giant 3/4
Leatherback Goyf- Leatherback Behemoth 4/5
Goyf SuperionMyr Superion 5/6
Tarmorygmos-Borborygmos 6/7
His power level is over 9000!- (none exist) 7/8
Super sayian Gofy- (none exist) 8/9
I would disagree that he isn't good, depending on the build. In testing, he seems to always come in as a 3/3, and then G2 if needed you pull for the Pridemage; if all I see is Goyfs, then I would MD the Pridemage but it appears that a lot of people in my meta will not be dropping the cash for them.
Hershey, PA
Standard Decks:
U/B Control
Legacy:
Dredge
Vintage:
Dredge
Cat Stax Fever
ANT
EDH:
TBD
It answers splintertwin, and a variety of other annoying abilities. (Huge setback for melira for example).
It makes our fetches and knights hurt more...but it might be worth it.
Well, it depends on what else I'm holding. If I'm holding 2 Nacatls, and my goyf is just going to come in as a 1/2, I'll drop the 2 Nacatls. I think it's pretty much a common sense situation most of the time. It's pretty common that goyf is already 2/3 by turn 2, tho. Even then... just makes more sense to play the Nacatls this turn.
CG