Death Cloud builds vary typically from Mono Black to Rock Colors. If this Format were to take off I would definitely push to make it competitive. As for the actual build i'm not exactly sure, I have two in mind but only ever having played Death Cloud when it was legal in standard I can't begin to imagine that either build is top notch.
The concept is quite simple, early hand disruption, artifact ramp into a Death cloud we end up on the winning side of. Between Quest, Phyrexian totem and the obliterator clean up after a DC can be pretty swift. I actually Really like the obliterator in here because it seems to me like the most efficient removal will be Path, Lightning bolt and Lightning Helix. I'll happily accept a path when piloting this deck and lightning bolt and helix are incredibly bad to use against the obliterator. He can also stall and early beat down pretty well if i need to hold out waiting for a cloud. Also between the phyrexian totem and talisman playing him post cloud should typically be a matter of dropping a single land.
This deck plays a bit differently. Early disruption into chump blockers who search for actual lands to ramp out. I like the viridian emissary in here. Against aggressive decks he plays very much like STE used to, trading with a creature and nailing me a land, even if he's still up on board when i cloud i'm going to be up a land. Post cloud is likely to be similar to the black list but a little slower. No totems to swing in with, only 2 obliterators but there is the possibility to actually cast Crime as well. Punishment may not be a replacement for deed but i think its still pretty helpful here.
Sideboards I'm assuming would be a mix of hate against, dredge, hypergenesis/storm and more aggressive strategies. Anyway new to cloud outside of its standard days so don't judge me too harshly i'm looking for some help and a place to discuss varying builds of cloud.
Not playing any Planeswalkers seems so wrong. Garruk Wildspeaker + Death Cloud / Pernicious Deed, or Sensei's Divining Top + Death Cloud was the only reason Death Cloud was playable in Old Extended. Only one of those combinations is legal now. (Hint: it's the first one.)
Not playing any Planeswalkers seems so wrong. Garruk Wildspeaker + Death Cloud / Pernicious Deed, or Sensei's Divining Top + Death Cloud was the only reason Death Cloud was playable in Old Extended. Only one of those combinations is legal now. (Hint: it's the first one.)
Definitely add some Planeswalkers.
Deed not legal in modern. My poor vindicates are sorry too.
I keep looking over my shoulder, like saying that I think Tezz is better than Jace2.0 for what i want to do in this deck is going to get me shot. That however is how i feel. He has 1 Ability thats relavant precloud and all 3 of his abilities are VERY relavant post cloud. Not being an avid blue players, the deck itself feels more like a splash of blue which allows for easier addition of tezz as opposed to jace. I know that playing 2 colors is HARDLY an issue for this format, but the deck has to opperate with alot of early development. A land that comes into play tapped (though rare) would still be rather detrimental to the game plan here. Tezz comes down the same turn that Jace does (hopefully a consistant turn 3 with this deck) and starts pulling in extra cards to the hand or potentially making an indestrucble 5/5 Darksteel Citadel if it needs to. If things go well and I can resolve Cloud with either planeswalker onboard though Tezz is just superior. I can either start womping in with a 5/5, or dig 5 deep to start accellerating back into the game and the game will quickly end if a few turns go by and I can use tezz's ultimate. Jace on the other hand would allow more control early, but post cloud he's simply going to be brainstorming which would allow me to recover more consistantly but doesn't offer a way to end the game himself. With the list being as tight as it is Its hard to find stuff to cut just to add in a finisher to play with jace's superior recovery.
So I decided to make more of a build around tezzeret, agent of bolas. I opted for thirst over thoughtcast because it was an instant and dug 3 deep, but originally I had 2 thoughtcasts in the list as well but between tezz, thirst and solemn simulacrum when it came time to cut cards thoughtcasts seemed unecessary.
They both just win the game after a successful Death Cloud and are fantastic in their own right.
I think Smallpox and Geth's Verdict would be better served as targeted removal spells. Tiny balances don't really help you out, and also prevent you from casting that late game Death Cloud, whereas a timely Go for the Throat or Smother or Doom Blade can be even more punishing (like in response to a Sword equipping) to the opponent without setting you back.
Given the high amount of colored mana costs in the deck, I think Dimir Signet might be better than Everflowing Chalice. I'd also look into artifacts that help to lock down the board and protect your Planeswalkers, like Tumble Magnet or maybe Trip Noose.
They both just win the game after a successful Death Cloud and are fantastic in their own right.
Space issues. They both would requires a different build around. Tezz2.0 requires a heavy artifact theme, Jace2.0 requires more threats that can be played post cloud. Because of space, i choose to just rune tezz2.0 he has two different ways to win post cloud and his +1 helps build board position as opposed to jace2.0's fateseal.
I think Smallpox and Geth's Verdict would be better served as targeted removal spells. Tiny balances don't really help you out, and also prevent you from casting that late game Death Cloud, whereas a timely Go for the Throat or Smother or Doom Blade can be even more punishing (like in response to a Sword equipping) to the opponent without setting you back.
Small pox does ALOT more than simply edict my opponent. Its a Death Cloud for 1. Meaning it strips a card, a creature and a land at half the cost of an actual death cloud for 1. If you are on the play it can more easily shut down an opponent who isn't ready for it, but mostly its to keep them off their game plan until we are set up enough to wreck the whole board position. This deck is running 32 mana sources not including 3 simulacrums, from what i can tell most decks don't run NEARLY that many and thus can stand to sacrifice a land or two to keep the opponents land in a questionable state. As for geth's verdict, I particularly enjoy the card, edicts work wonders in large enough numbers usually being cheap with no targetting limitations and this deck is running 11, 3 of which hit more than 1 opposing creature. Obviously the decks sideboard will have (depending on the variant) more ways to handle more aggressive strategies.
Given the high amount of colored mana costs in the deck, I think Dimir Signet might be better than Everflowing Chalice. I'd also look into artifacts that help to lock down the board and protect your Planeswalkers, like Tumble Magnet or maybe Trip Noose.
I originally agreed with you about the signet v. chalice point... however the only thing holding me back was the fact that by itself the signet can't tap for mana. Sometimes plays will involve trying to advance the board position by playing a chalice (1 counter) and tapping said chalice to help pay for something else. Besides the deck literally only ever has to produce a single U at a time. Tezz2.0 and thirst for knowledge are the only cards that require blue mana and having 16 sources that can produce blue mana seems to be enough.
Having addressed those points, do you have a decklist you would run? I really just wanted this to be a place to discuss all the varying builds of Death Cloud.
4x Kitchen Finks
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
3x Eternal Witness
3x Thrun the Last Troll
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Lilliana Vess
3x Deathcloud
2x Life from the Loam
1x Raven's Crime
4x Thoughtseize
4x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Go for the Throat
Now this is an update to the old Extended deck I ran at the PTQ's. What you need for this deck is a meta breakdown so you can build it to foil popular strategies.
Garruk followed by a Cloud for 3 usually ends games on the spot. You need the Loam's to fight decks with Tech Edges and Ghost Quarter. As such with Loam you can run those yourself if it fits the meta. And the Raven's Crime Loam engine can lock certain players out after a non Garruk fueled Cloud.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I feel like if you really want to pull off a nice cloud you need to splice it with green... Otherwise its just a mono black deck that happens to run death cloud.
For what it's worth, there's already a very good, very long thread about Death Cloud, that's morphed into at least a pseudo-primer. Lots of good discussion there:
And I'd agree with carnivalofcarnage. Death Cloud really needs green to be competitive. Check out the Cloud lists from the Modern Dailies and you'll see they all run green for Goyf, Garruk, and sometimes Pulse and Loam.
Death Cloud builds vary typically from Mono Black to Rock Colors. If this Format were to take off I would definitely push to make it competitive. As for the actual build i'm not exactly sure, I have two in mind but only ever having played Death Cloud when it was legal in standard I can't begin to imagine that either build is top notch.
22 Swamp
Creatures
2 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Dark Confidant
Artifacts
4 Phyrexian Totem
4 Talisman of Dominance
4 Death Cloud
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Quest for the Gravelord
2 Phyrexian Arena
4 Small Pox
4 Geth's Verdict
The concept is quite simple, early hand disruption, artifact ramp into a Death cloud we end up on the winning side of. Between Quest, Phyrexian totem and the obliterator clean up after a DC can be pretty swift. I actually Really like the obliterator in here because it seems to me like the most efficient removal will be Path, Lightning bolt and Lightning Helix. I'll happily accept a path when piloting this deck and lightning bolt and helix are incredibly bad to use against the obliterator. He can also stall and early beat down pretty well if i need to hold out waiting for a cloud. Also between the phyrexian totem and talisman playing him post cloud should typically be a matter of dropping a single land.
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Plains
5 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Wood Elves
4 Viridian Emissary
4 Sakura Tribe-elder
3 Dark Confidant
Other
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Small Pox
3 Crime // Punishment
3 Death Cloud
3 Quest for the Gravelord
2 Garruk Wildspeaker
This deck plays a bit differently. Early disruption into chump blockers who search for actual lands to ramp out. I like the viridian emissary in here. Against aggressive decks he plays very much like STE used to, trading with a creature and nailing me a land, even if he's still up on board when i cloud i'm going to be up a land. Post cloud is likely to be similar to the black list but a little slower. No totems to swing in with, only 2 obliterators but there is the possibility to actually cast Crime as well. Punishment may not be a replacement for deed but i think its still pretty helpful here.
Sideboards I'm assuming would be a mix of hate against, dredge, hypergenesis/storm and more aggressive strategies. Anyway new to cloud outside of its standard days so don't judge me too harshly i'm looking for some help and a place to discuss varying builds of cloud.
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
2 Island
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Artifacts
4 Talisman of Dominance
4 Everflowing Chalice
2 Mox Opal
Creatures
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Small Pox
4 Geth's Verdict
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Death Cloud
Definitely add some Planeswalkers.
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
I'd suggest also building a Blue Variant (one that does not rely on counter-magic, obviously.)
Deed not legal in modern. My poor vindicates are sorry too.
4 Watery Grave
4 Drowned Catacomb
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
2 Island
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Artifacts
4 Talisman of Dominance
4 Everflowing Chalice
2 Mox Opal
Creatures
3 Solemn Simulacrum
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Small Pox
4 Geth's Verdict
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Death Cloud
I keep looking over my shoulder, like saying that I think Tezz is better than Jace2.0 for what i want to do in this deck is going to get me shot. That however is how i feel. He has 1 Ability thats relavant precloud and all 3 of his abilities are VERY relavant post cloud. Not being an avid blue players, the deck itself feels more like a splash of blue which allows for easier addition of tezz as opposed to jace. I know that playing 2 colors is HARDLY an issue for this format, but the deck has to opperate with alot of early development. A land that comes into play tapped (though rare) would still be rather detrimental to the game plan here. Tezz comes down the same turn that Jace does (hopefully a consistant turn 3 with this deck) and starts pulling in extra cards to the hand or potentially making an indestrucble 5/5 Darksteel Citadel if it needs to. If things go well and I can resolve Cloud with either planeswalker onboard though Tezz is just superior. I can either start womping in with a 5/5, or dig 5 deep to start accellerating back into the game and the game will quickly end if a few turns go by and I can use tezz's ultimate. Jace on the other hand would allow more control early, but post cloud he's simply going to be brainstorming which would allow me to recover more consistantly but doesn't offer a way to end the game himself. With the list being as tight as it is Its hard to find stuff to cut just to add in a finisher to play with jace's superior recovery.
So I decided to make more of a build around tezzeret, agent of bolas. I opted for thirst over thoughtcast because it was an instant and dug 3 deep, but originally I had 2 thoughtcasts in the list as well but between tezz, thirst and solemn simulacrum when it came time to cut cards thoughtcasts seemed unecessary.
What do you guys think?
They both just win the game after a successful Death Cloud and are fantastic in their own right.
I think Smallpox and Geth's Verdict would be better served as targeted removal spells. Tiny balances don't really help you out, and also prevent you from casting that late game Death Cloud, whereas a timely Go for the Throat or Smother or Doom Blade can be even more punishing (like in response to a Sword equipping) to the opponent without setting you back.
Given the high amount of colored mana costs in the deck, I think Dimir Signet might be better than Everflowing Chalice. I'd also look into artifacts that help to lock down the board and protect your Planeswalkers, like Tumble Magnet or maybe Trip Noose.
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
Space issues. They both would requires a different build around. Tezz2.0 requires a heavy artifact theme, Jace2.0 requires more threats that can be played post cloud. Because of space, i choose to just rune tezz2.0 he has two different ways to win post cloud and his +1 helps build board position as opposed to jace2.0's fateseal.
Small pox does ALOT more than simply edict my opponent. Its a Death Cloud for 1. Meaning it strips a card, a creature and a land at half the cost of an actual death cloud for 1. If you are on the play it can more easily shut down an opponent who isn't ready for it, but mostly its to keep them off their game plan until we are set up enough to wreck the whole board position. This deck is running 32 mana sources not including 3 simulacrums, from what i can tell most decks don't run NEARLY that many and thus can stand to sacrifice a land or two to keep the opponents land in a questionable state. As for geth's verdict, I particularly enjoy the card, edicts work wonders in large enough numbers usually being cheap with no targetting limitations and this deck is running 11, 3 of which hit more than 1 opposing creature. Obviously the decks sideboard will have (depending on the variant) more ways to handle more aggressive strategies.
I originally agreed with you about the signet v. chalice point... however the only thing holding me back was the fact that by itself the signet can't tap for mana. Sometimes plays will involve trying to advance the board position by playing a chalice (1 counter) and tapping said chalice to help pay for something else. Besides the deck literally only ever has to produce a single U at a time. Tezz2.0 and thirst for knowledge are the only cards that require blue mana and having 16 sources that can produce blue mana seems to be enough.
Having addressed those points, do you have a decklist you would run? I really just wanted this to be a place to discuss all the varying builds of Death Cloud.
Death Cloud + Phyrexian Totem + Tombstalker seems just stupid powerful to me.
24 Swamp
// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tombstalker
// Instants
4 Doom Blade
2 Geth's Verdict
2 Go for the Throat
4 Death Cloud
4 Duress
2 Mind Shatter
1 Black Sun's Zenith
2 Quest for the Gravelord
// Artifacts
4 Talisman of Dominance
4 Phyrexian Totem
Well, I'm starting here.
4x Overgrown Tomb
3x Treetop Village
4x G/B fetch
7x Forest
6x Swamp
4x Kitchen Finks
4x Sakura Tribe Elder
3x Eternal Witness
3x Thrun the Last Troll
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Lilliana Vess
3x Deathcloud
2x Life from the Loam
1x Raven's Crime
4x Thoughtseize
4x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Go for the Throat
Now this is an update to the old Extended deck I ran at the PTQ's. What you need for this deck is a meta breakdown so you can build it to foil popular strategies.
Garruk followed by a Cloud for 3 usually ends games on the spot. You need the Loam's to fight decks with Tech Edges and Ghost Quarter. As such with Loam you can run those yourself if it fits the meta. And the Raven's Crime Loam engine can lock certain players out after a non Garruk fueled Cloud.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=345694
And I'd agree with carnivalofcarnage. Death Cloud really needs green to be competitive. Check out the Cloud lists from the Modern Dailies and you'll see they all run green for Goyf, Garruk, and sometimes Pulse and Loam.
Other then that I think Pox is pretty good, deff need a way to kill lands with 12post running around.