Yes that is true... but when did I say anything about playing it in response? My response message was for someone, not you, about his response to my post in regards to Kiki/Splinter decks. That is why I am being so harsh here.
The context of my second post would lead you to a better conclusion if you read my first and second posts. I hold no ill will towards you you just keep assuming when I am playing cards.
As far as playing it in response, I'm not sure what "it" is?
I went back and reread your posts. When you were talking about split second, did you mean Angel's Grace? If so, I suppose we just had a misunderstanding?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The only thing holding combo back is the Modern Banlist, and its doing a shoddy job at that. There are so many combos in Modern, and some that haven't gone mainstream.
Aggro beats control
Control beats combo
combo beats aggro.
Without a viable control deck in the format, Combo beats Aggro.
funny thing is imho mental misstep was the best thing to happen to Legacy, it really shook up the format and slowed the game down, and allowed decks with Jace to appear and made archetypes like hive mind possible. Since mental misstep is banned in Modern, and the absence of free counters, Modern will no doubt be the faster format than Legacy.
Combo is dominating the format! Look at all the tier 1 and 1.5 decks that are combo! Like...Splinter Twin (?)! Or....uhh....oh! Yeah, Hive Mind is mostly playable!
Provide me one Combo deck that warps the format, makes an entire archetype unplayable, or is less interactive than the bulldozer of 12post. (EDIT: That is currently legal. Degenerate combo decks like Hypergen happen. There's a banlist for a reason)
(I think the word 12post is in the vast majority of my posts in this board. I fear this may lead to psychological repression regarding fences later in life)
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Yes that is true... but when did I say anything about playing it in response? My response message was for someone, not you, about his response to my post in regards to Kiki/Splinter decks. That is why I am being so harsh here.
The context of my second post would lead you to a better conclusion if you read my first and second posts. I hold no ill will towards you you just keep assuming when I am playing cards.
Wow, I'm baffled by your way of arguing/responding.
Anyway, I'm not aggro player, and I'm not the kind of player that netdecks. I try new tactics, mostly control or different (not so lame) combo's. I never said there's nothing I can do about these combo decks. I'm just saying that you have to be pretty lucky to disrupt them at the right time, most of the time. I've played decks with a lot of discard, and still they drew into their combo (starting with 2 splinter twins in their opening hand for instance and me only having 1 discard spell in my hand.) And how do you counter a combo when you play BG or BWG or BW controlish/midrange? I know these are not the strongest combinations of colors, but I like to think out of the box and try new kind of decks. I also play a UWG combo control deck which does pretty well against most combo decks. But the fact of the matter is that these combo's are just not fun to play against. If you can't counter one of there combo pieces you're probably lost.
And as for hivemind and 6 mana.. Come on, you are not serious? Have you seen how people ramp mana in modern? Getting 6 mana in turn three/four is pretty damn easy with all the cloudposts and what not. When hive mind resolves, there is nothing you can do. And yes I do play chalice of the void sideboard and that pretty much kills hive mind. But is it fun to play a format where you need to mulligan until you have the one card in hand that destroys their deck? Wasn't this one of the reasons why they banned hypergenesis?
I never said it is impossible to win from combo (well splinter twin is kind of ridiculous, they only have to play dispell to protect the combo and play most of their search and exarch en the end of your own turn.). Combo can be fun, but these three combo decks are just mindless. No need to think about how to play the combo, just put your two combo pieces on the field and win. How's that fun? At least with high tide in legacy you have to really know what you are doing to be able to play that deck. Hive mind and splinter twin? Not so much. Boring. Just Boring.
I like seeing all the combo decks in the format. As long as the turn 2 combo decks stay away, I think it's refreshing to see Combo take center stage in a format.
We don't have:
Force of will, mental misstep or daze to stop spell based combo
Wasteland and stifle to stop land based combo/keep the game in the early stages
Hymn to tourach and cabal therapy to halt combo.
So the main stopping of combo available to about half of legacy (people tend to play blue or black in many cases) just isn't there.
Grapeshot + Swath can fairly reliable go off on Turn 3, whether on the draw or the play, especially with all of the fetches grabbing Ravnica shocklands. Most of the time, you don't even need an especially high storm count if they've been paying life to do things. Of course, there is always the god-hand of Turn 1 kill, but Dragonstorm can do that as well, so that really doesn't count. Add its ability to go off through a Chalice for 2 and it's a pretty brutal deck.
And I'm still wondering if that is the 'fun' WotC is aming for. I'd rather have stoneforge mystic and jace (eventhough I really hate jace 2.0). At least those weren't such fast tactics and easier to stop.
We don't have:
Force of will, mental misstep or daze to stop spell based combo
Wasteland and stifle to stop land based combo/keep the game in the early stages
Hymn to tourach and cabal therapy to halt combo.
So the main stopping of combo available to about half of legacy (people tend to play blue or black in many cases) just isn't there.
This is true, and on the surface, it might look like a problem for the format. But just as the answers to combo have slowed down, so too has the combos themselves. All of the following cards are just not around in Modern, which really forces combo to chill out from its Legacy equivalents:
It's a pretty darn long list, and I am definitely missing some other combo staples. Wizards was largely successful in slowing down combo from turn 2-3 to turn 4-5. The fastest combo decks in the format cannot really get goldfish wins until turn 4 or 5. Those that can, like Protean Hulk with a powerful hand, are hilariously vulnerable to any form of disruption including basic creature removal.
It is a mistake to look at Modern and say "This format is missing lots of Legacy's anti combo staples. Therefore, it is vulnerable to combo!" In addition to those, look at Modern and say "Combo loses a lot of Legacy staples, and is therefore a lot less powerful too!" The scariest combo decks that WOULD have dominated the format, Hypergenesis, Dark Depths, Combo Elves, Dredge, and Thopter/Sword, are all dead. That leaves only "fair" decks like Dragonstorm, Hive Mind, Ascension, Splinter Twin, Breach Hulk, etc. And all of these decks weren't ever called unfair in Magic's history (except Hive Mind in Legacy, but that was a totally different deck).
The only reason that combo is seeing play is that control is so hard to build and run effectively in this format. You almost have to run esper charm because of the general lack of card advantage.
@ people:
12 post is honestly more like a combo deck than a control deck IMO. Control decks spend their resources sweeping the board and keeping tempo. 12post tries to stay alive until they "combo" off and drop a emrakul.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
@ Slipknot. Your lack of CA is due to your reluctance to play Thirst for Knowledge. I know you need artifacts but I can't see why running Artifacts is bad.
You can beat combo with a discard heavy deck. A properly built counter control deck can do it as well. Perhaps the issue is that a true control deck hasn't established itself yet. It seems like everyone has given up since they lost their toy in Jace.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
@ Slipknot. Your lack of CA is due to your reluctance to play Thirst for Knowledge. I know you need artifacts but I can't see why running Artifacts is bad.
You can beat combo with a discard heavy deck. A properly built counter control deck can do it as well. Perhaps the issue is that a true control deck hasn't established itself yet. It seems like everyone has given up since they lost their toy in Jace.
Are you suggesting a landstill variant into mindslaver lock? It could probably be done. Inkmoth nexus, blinkmoth nexus or mutavault could replaces factories, and punishing grove + EE could slow aggro with Raven's crime to stall combo. But really, there are probably just better options.
@ Slipknot. Your lack of CA is due to your reluctance to play Thirst for Knowledge. I know you need artifacts but I can't see why running Artifacts is bad.
For every thirst for knowledge you run you must run around 3-4 artifacts to statistically have an artifact to discard. If we have the artifact lands back i would run it all day, but I can't shove enough artifacts it
You can beat combo with a discard heavy deck. A properly built counter control deck can do it as well. Perhaps the issue is that a true control deck hasn't established itself yet. It seems like everyone has given up since they lost their toy in Jace.
The problem with this kind of thinking is that discard doesn't kill threats that make it through. Conterspells also suffer from this paradox. We need a 3 mana hard counter that can also destroy a creature.
TBQH jace isn't the least bit of my concern. The loss of ancestral vision is a lot more of a problem to me. I didn't even run JTMS in my standard UB permission deck when it was legal because I had no way to protect it and tapping out sux.
^^^
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
running artifacts is iffy because zoo will be popular for a while and every good zoo list should run at least 3 ancient grudges and thirst without most of the artifact lands is pretty sketchy.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
running artifacts is iffy because zoo will be popular for a while and every good zoo list should run at least 3 ancient grudges and thirst without most of the artifact lands is pretty sketchy.
unless you run equipment and academy ruins.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
yes, but then you might as well play gifts or bant or both.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
P.S im sorry that this "wall" of text is very scary and menacing but i believe you can do it the lack of gramer and punctuation is because i have a blood fued with it due to the fact when i was four and the teacher said i would die poor and lonely and the kids would dance on my grave when i died because i could not correctly punctuate with commas
yes, but then you might as well play gifts or bant or both.
yessir, gifts and thirst. I'm going to build a next level Caw blade.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I've played a whole bunch of games against Dragonstorm (and oddly, none against Zoo so far). It's surprisingly easy to win against it. Well-timed Spellstutter Sprites or Chalice of the Void for X = 0 ruin Lotus Bloom. Countering their mana ramp often means gg. Gaddock Teeg forces them to ride a Bogardan Hellkite for the win, and Ethersworn Canonist obviously ruins Storm. Heck, Trickbind on the Storm trigger makes for anticlimactic endings. Memoricide from the sideboard can exile all the Dragonstorms or Bogardan Hellkites from the deck. Land destruction is surprisingly useful--as long as you can keep them off red, they can do nothing. (As an example, once I exiled all of one player's Mountains (and Ghost Quartered his Shivan Reef) with a Mangara of Corondor lock, that player conceded.)
running artifacts is iffy because zoo will be popular for a while and every good zoo list should run at least 3 ancient grudges and thirst without most of the artifact lands is pretty sketchy.
An artifact land powered affinity deck would be more than capable of handling some little Grudges. Etched Champion alone is a beating that Zoo really won't be able to deal with. That said, I absolutely do not think the lands are broken. They power only a few decks, all of which could contribute to metagame diversity, none of which are broken. For reference, take a look at the Overextended metagame from the summer. Affinity made some showings in the early weeks, and then totally vanished off the face of the earth. It was around, but never at the top tables. Affinity does not really lose anything in Modern, but then again, the main anti-affinity hate and decks do not lose much either. Affinity would just be another fast aggro deck, albeit one a lot less vulnerable to mental misstep than Zoo (in the eventuality that the card gets unbanned). But affinity has plenty of other weaknesses that would keep it in check.
Crypt combo/Dredge is actually still pretty playable, i really like how diverse this format can be. there are tons of answers for everything, hell trickbind might even see play. also with a new format of course you are going to see a large number of combo decks because its a style of play can win fast and just trounce someone, it also helps there are actual viable combos too. once the meta is established im sure we will see an even amount of archtypes
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
As far as playing it in response, I'm not sure what "it" is?
I went back and reread your posts. When you were talking about split second, did you mean Angel's Grace? If so, I suppose we just had a misunderstanding?
Combo is dominating the format! Look at all the tier 1 and 1.5 decks that are combo! Like...Splinter Twin (?)! Or....uhh....oh! Yeah, Hive Mind is mostly playable!
Provide me one Combo deck that warps the format, makes an entire archetype unplayable, or is less interactive than the bulldozer of 12post. (EDIT: That is currently legal. Degenerate combo decks like Hypergen happen. There's a banlist for a reason)
(I think the word 12post is in the vast majority of my posts in this board. I fear this may lead to psychological repression regarding fences later in life)
Join the Poetry Running Contest!
Wow, I'm baffled by your way of arguing/responding.
Anyway, I'm not aggro player, and I'm not the kind of player that netdecks. I try new tactics, mostly control or different (not so lame) combo's. I never said there's nothing I can do about these combo decks. I'm just saying that you have to be pretty lucky to disrupt them at the right time, most of the time. I've played decks with a lot of discard, and still they drew into their combo (starting with 2 splinter twins in their opening hand for instance and me only having 1 discard spell in my hand.) And how do you counter a combo when you play BG or BWG or BW controlish/midrange? I know these are not the strongest combinations of colors, but I like to think out of the box and try new kind of decks. I also play a UWG combo control deck which does pretty well against most combo decks. But the fact of the matter is that these combo's are just not fun to play against. If you can't counter one of there combo pieces you're probably lost.
And as for hivemind and 6 mana.. Come on, you are not serious? Have you seen how people ramp mana in modern? Getting 6 mana in turn three/four is pretty damn easy with all the cloudposts and what not. When hive mind resolves, there is nothing you can do. And yes I do play chalice of the void sideboard and that pretty much kills hive mind. But is it fun to play a format where you need to mulligan until you have the one card in hand that destroys their deck? Wasn't this one of the reasons why they banned hypergenesis?
I never said it is impossible to win from combo (well splinter twin is kind of ridiculous, they only have to play dispell to protect the combo and play most of their search and exarch en the end of your own turn.). Combo can be fun, but these three combo decks are just mindless. No need to think about how to play the combo, just put your two combo pieces on the field and win. How's that fun? At least with high tide in legacy you have to really know what you are doing to be able to play that deck. Hive mind and splinter twin? Not so much. Boring. Just Boring.
Force of will, mental misstep or daze to stop spell based combo
Wasteland and stifle to stop land based combo/keep the game in the early stages
Hymn to tourach and cabal therapy to halt combo.
So the main stopping of combo available to about half of legacy (people tend to play blue or black in many cases) just isn't there.
Legacy:WUBG Jace Rock
Trade thread
Sig by: heroes of the plane studios
Not you specifically, that was the general reaction from most people on this forum.
This is true, and on the surface, it might look like a problem for the format. But just as the answers to combo have slowed down, so too has the combos themselves. All of the following cards are just not around in Modern, which really forces combo to chill out from its Legacy equivalents:
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Elvish Spirit Guide
Land Grant
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lotus Petal
Chrome Mox (for now, at least)
Tendrils of Agony
Show and Tell
Intuition
Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
It's a pretty darn long list, and I am definitely missing some other combo staples. Wizards was largely successful in slowing down combo from turn 2-3 to turn 4-5. The fastest combo decks in the format cannot really get goldfish wins until turn 4 or 5. Those that can, like Protean Hulk with a powerful hand, are hilariously vulnerable to any form of disruption including basic creature removal.
It is a mistake to look at Modern and say "This format is missing lots of Legacy's anti combo staples. Therefore, it is vulnerable to combo!" In addition to those, look at Modern and say "Combo loses a lot of Legacy staples, and is therefore a lot less powerful too!" The scariest combo decks that WOULD have dominated the format, Hypergenesis, Dark Depths, Combo Elves, Dredge, and Thopter/Sword, are all dead. That leaves only "fair" decks like Dragonstorm, Hive Mind, Ascension, Splinter Twin, Breach Hulk, etc. And all of these decks weren't ever called unfair in Magic's history (except Hive Mind in Legacy, but that was a totally different deck).
-ktkenshinx-
@ people:
12 post is honestly more like a combo deck than a control deck IMO. Control decks spend their resources sweeping the board and keeping tempo. 12post tries to stay alive until they "combo" off and drop a emrakul.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
You can beat combo with a discard heavy deck. A properly built counter control deck can do it as well. Perhaps the issue is that a true control deck hasn't established itself yet. It seems like everyone has given up since they lost their toy in Jace.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Are you suggesting a landstill variant into mindslaver lock? It could probably be done. Inkmoth nexus, blinkmoth nexus or mutavault could replaces factories, and punishing grove + EE could slow aggro with Raven's crime to stall combo. But really, there are probably just better options.
Legacy:WUBG Jace Rock
Trade thread
Sig by: heroes of the plane studios
^^^
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
unless you run equipment and academy ruins.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
yessir, gifts and thirst. I'm going to build a next level Caw blade.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
For other combos, I was trying Melira Combo, and a RDW player kept burning Melira, Sylvok Outcast and Viscera Seer to death on sight.
An artifact land powered affinity deck would be more than capable of handling some little Grudges. Etched Champion alone is a beating that Zoo really won't be able to deal with. That said, I absolutely do not think the lands are broken. They power only a few decks, all of which could contribute to metagame diversity, none of which are broken. For reference, take a look at the Overextended metagame from the summer. Affinity made some showings in the early weeks, and then totally vanished off the face of the earth. It was around, but never at the top tables. Affinity does not really lose anything in Modern, but then again, the main anti-affinity hate and decks do not lose much either. Affinity would just be another fast aggro deck, albeit one a lot less vulnerable to mental misstep than Zoo (in the eventuality that the card gets unbanned). But affinity has plenty of other weaknesses that would keep it in check.
-ktkenshinx-
-MTG Salvation.
Tooth & Nail........Grishoalbrand....Living Dominance....Tezzerator.........Vannifar Pod
My Decks that have been BANNED
DRS Jund | Kiki-Pod | Bloom Titan | Splinter Twin | KCI