It does more than just fight the good fight against Hypergenesis (which is enough for it to be decent anyway), but it also can counter other cascade heavy decks, several Zendikar block traps (though, doing this usually means you are the griefer, not the control player), and also a little card called Dread Return. Having one sideboard slot devoted to ending two of the most obnoxious decks in the format is pretty good if you ask me.
List of notable stuff Nix is good against:
Hypergenesis
Ancestral Vision
Dread Return
Living End
Tormod's Crypt
Ravenous Trap
Anything casted by Bloodbraid Elf
Engineered Explosives for Zero
Chalice of the Void for Zero
typically spell pierce will have the same results except it is only a dead card against half the field. Zen traps are slow/clunky and will not likely see much play.
Actually, in 2009 Extended, I suggested Nix as a viable sideboard option card for Dredge decks.
It worked out to be very very good. It won me games and made my Hypergenesis matchup extremely favourable.
All I had to do was always leave 1 blue mana up.
Why? It offers multiple hate options.
I played 4 Nix in my sideboard and used them to deal with:
Tormod's Crypt (By far the most played card against Dredge.)
Ravenous Trap (Shocks your opponent into losing.:o)
Engineered Explosives for 0 (Prevents Zombies from dissappearing.)
Hypergenesis (Really, they didnt even expect this card from Dredge. Most players didnt even know this card until I tapped 1 blue and flashed it across the table. They were reading it with surprised faces.)
Dread Return (Against opposing Dredge decks. Quite the shocker too, considering they dont get to Dread Return their key card, (Sphinx/Iona/FKZ))
Spell Pierce, most of the time, wouldnt have been able to save me from Trap/Crypt. So Nix was better.
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3. Scroll Back here
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After some re-consideration this is my suggested banned list:
[CARD]Hypergenesis
[/CARD][CARD]Narcomoeba
[/CARD][CARD]Arcbound Ravager
[/CARD][CARD]Sensei's Divining Top
[/CARD][CARD]Skullclamp
[/CARD][CARD]Sword of the Meek
[/CARD]
(I removed Glimpse of Nature.)
Edit: RE: Nix
If you think Nix is even close to playable, wouldn't you rather just be a Spellstutter Sprite deck like UW Faeries?
I wish it was really like that back in 09. I played back then too. U/B tron/ teachings were fringe decks that may be good depending on meta. You cant stop elves or hyper or depths that go off turn 1 or 2. Hell turn 3 is rough most times. Slow control decks were far and few between because of the speed of old extended. Zoo is another deck that is meta/match up dependent. Also the builds and pilots can make or break the match up.
Put it this way, fea is tier 1.5 or maybe 2.0 in new extended, 4cc and 5cc were all but unplayable. I dont expect it to do much better in modern. Modern is going to be a format dominated by combo until those decks are dialed down to let other stratagies come to the front.
One last thing, alot of people are looking at modern/overextended as legacy lite alot more then new extended or old extended. the fact nothing rotates seems to change the perception of a format.
I was actually talking about the year when elves first broke out. it was extended PTQ season 08-09 not 09-10. The UB tron deck was the biggest deck because it had main deck night of souls' betrayal, Engineered explosives, chalice of the void, damnation. It was by far the best deck at the time.
Again I will reinterate: elves are a creature based strategy which is easily disrupted. They can't win on turn 1-2. Maybe turn 3 but that is with the nutz draw, but turn 3-4 is where they typically go off and win. This is fishing, with any cheap removal or sweepers and a bit of understanding of the deck it is easily beat.
Hypergenesis I will give you is a bit broken. Elves, dredge, and Blue based control are the only decks that can even go 50/50 with it. Zoo has a hate bear and chalice of the void is alright, but both of these can easily be destroyed.
List of notable stuff Nix is good against:
Hypergenesis- typically spell pierce will do the same for the same price
Ancestral Vision- spell pierce yet again
Dread Return broken record
Living End broken record
Tormod's Crypt
Ravenous Trap
Anything casted by Bloodbraid Elf derp derp
Engineered Explosives for Zero
Chalice of the Void for Zero If running blue this does nothing against you; if your hypergenesis you just destroy it.
Actually, in 2009 Extended, I suggested Nix as a viable sideboard option card for Dredge decks.
It worked out to be very very good. It won me games and made my Hypergenesis matchup extremely favourable.
All I had to do was always leave 1 blue mana up.
Why? It offers multiple hate options.
I played 4 Nix in my sideboard and used them to deal with:
Tormod's Crypt (By far the most played card against Dredge.)
Ravenous Trap (Shocks your opponent into losing.:o)
Engineered Explosives for 0 (Prevents Zombies from dissappearing.)
Hypergenesis (Really, they didnt even expect this card from Dredge. Most players didnt even know this card until I tapped 1 blue and flashed it across the table. They were reading it with surprised faces.)
Dread Return (Against opposing Dredge decks. Quite the shocker too, considering they dont get to Dread Return their key card, (Sphinx/Iona/FKZ))
Spell Pierce, most of the time, wouldnt have been able to save me from Trap/Crypt. So Nix was better.
Only in dredge, would I ever run this card.
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I think Jitte is fine. A Stoneforge control deck needs to have a lot of creatures to make Jitte useful, and even then, Batterskull is almost always preferred anyway. (In Legacy for example, I'd rather have 2 Batterskulls or 1 Batterskull and 1 SOFI before I pack Jittes.) I think the only reason Jitte was banned is that it's easy to put it into every deck that wants it in a Team Unified Constructed tournament (which lessens the variety necessary for such an event), which the Community Cup was.
Jitte is just a card that is sweet for creature-on-creature battles, and not much more. That seems perfectly fair to me.
I agree with you that trying to ban Elf Combo is a bit silly.
Why are people so afraid of Jitte? It not even the best equipment in SFM decks by quite a long shot, Batterskull is. Jitte is only really good in the Midrange matchups of which there really aren't a ton of because the format is relatively fast. I could honestly live with the current banned list so long as the took Jitte off, it makes no sense on the banned list. It was far from broken in Old Extended, its far from Broken in Legacy and Overextended so I don't see how it would be a problem here.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Also the first post gives the impression that you're trying to kill everything too fast for your liking.
Personnally I think that to be broken, something must be very powerful (killing fast being very powerful indeed) AND very resilient. Elves are far from resilient, and they are not even that powerful.
AGREED
Hypergenesis is very powerful and might be a bit too resilient with all the cascades spells it has.
Seems like it could be the boogeyman of the format.
I certainly hope that Wizards' does not unban Umezawa's Jitte. It kills aggro so much and makes Stoneforge Mystic way too powerful (And I am a control player, so it's not even my personnal problem).
WTH, are you babbling about? Jitte is good; like maybe sideboard good. I know back in the day it was broke and now it is some sort of evil card, but what? How does it kill aggro? its really only good in aggro mirrors and probably won't even be main decked in SFM decks unless the meta is nothing but aggro as it does nothing vs control or combo decks.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I was actually talking about the year when elves first broke out. it was extended PTQ season 08-09 not 09-10. The UB tron deck was the biggest deck because it had main deck night of souls' betrayal, Engineered explosives, chalice of the void, damnation. It was by far the best deck at the time.
Again I will reinterate: elves are a creature based strategy which is easily disrupted. They can't win on turn 1-2. Maybe turn 3 but that is with the nutz draw, but turn 3-4 is where they typically go off and win. This is fishing, with any cheap removal or sweepers and a bit of understanding of the deck it is easily beat.
Hypergenesis I will give you is a bit broken. Elves, dredge, and Blue based control are the only decks that can even go 50/50 with it. Zoo has a hate bear and chalice of the void is alright, but both of these can easily be destroyed.
Fair enough. I think you are underestimating elves. I have seen it go off turn 2 quite regularly and walk over the best control decks. You just dont have the mana or spells on turn 2 or 3 to stop the interaction. Creature based or not, its still fast combo.
As for nuking dredge before the format even gets going, the deck loses quite a bit going from legacy to modern. In the play testing I have seen dredge cant compete with the likes of elves or hypergenesis and without a decent to god hand most control decks can hate it out. Granted if the dredge player gets the god hand they can destroy most decks on turn 2 or 3, but its quite hit or miss.
I am not a fan of banning mana base/land cards. The one exception would be dark depths. This one card forces you to play a certain stratagy and in essence certain colors. When depths hits the table if you dont have a way to bounce or make your opponent sac Mr. Indestructable when he hits the table, you lose. This is also one example where you cant ban the enabler either.
Not at all. You don't have to bounce him. You can exile the Marit Lage token with Path to Exile, which will already be one of the most highly played cards in the format. The thing about the Dark Depths combo is that while it is certainly very powerful, it almost certainly wouldn't be format-warping, because Blue, White, and Black all have very good answers to the combo that they want to be playing already. Even if Red and Green don't have answers (they might, I just can't think of any off the top of my head), I don't honestly think that matters. Outside of Elves, which can race the combo, there probably won't be a competitive deck that doesn't at least splash Blue, White, or Black anyway.
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Not at all. You don't have to bounce him. You can exile the Marit Lage token with Path to Exile, which will already be one of the most highly played cards in the format. The thing about the Dark Depths combo is that while it is certainly very powerful, it almost certainly wouldn't be format-warping, because Blue, White, and Black all have very good answers to the combo that they want to be playing already. Even if Red and Green don't have answers (they might, I just can't think of any off the top of my head), I don't honestly think that matters. Outside of Elves, which can race the combo, there probably won't be a competitive deck that doesn't at least splash Blue, White, or Black anyway.
This deck forced other decks to run 4 path instead of 2-3 and forced non-white decks to main deck cards that they normally wouldn't.
This is the definition of Format Warping.
Now the only format warping deck is hypergenesis or elves. Although hypergen seems like a tougher deck, and it probably wins this combo mirror 60% of the time.
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This deck forced other decks to run 4 path instead of 2-3 and forced non-white decks to main deck cards that they normally wouldn't.
This is the definition of Format Warping.
Now the only format warping deck is hypergenesis or elves. Although hypergen seems like a tougher deck, and it probably wins this combo mirror 60% of the time.
White decks should already be running 4 Path. It's the best removal spell in the format. Blue already wants to run Spell Snare and possibly Repeal. Black already wants to be running Thoughtseize. I fail to see any format warping there. The card requires exactly zero dedicated hate, unlike Hypergenesis or Dredge.
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"Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
White decks should already be running 4 Path. It's the best removal spell in the format. Blue already wants to run Spell Snare and possibly Repeal. Black already wants to be running Thoughtseize. I fail to see any format warping there. The card requires exactly zero dedicated hate, unlike Hypergenesis or Dredge.
neither teachings or tron/post variants are going to be running any thoughtseize which isn't really an answer for the deck anyways. More aggressive aggro decks like 1 drop zoo and boros are only going to be running 2 paths to scape out a bit of extra room for Burn.
This deck also can play the control game. Its a combo control that can win early grind you down a bit then combo off when your most vulnerable. if any card in that list needs to be unbanned its jitte or sword of the meek.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
neither teachings or tron/post variants are going to be running any thoughtseize which isn't really an answer for the deck anyways. More aggressive aggro decks like 1 drop zoo and boros are only going to be running 2 paths to scape out a bit of extra room for Burn.
This deck also can play the control game. Its a combo control that can win early grind you down a bit then combo off when your most vulnerable. if any card in that list needs to be unbanned its jitte or sword of the meek.
God no, Sword of the Meek is one of the last cards I would consider taking off the list only slightly behind Top and Skullclamp. The thing with the combo is that its really easy to assemble and it stops aggro decks in their tracks once its online and it becomes literally impossible to race. Not to mention nothing short of Leyline of the Void or Extirpate actually answers the combo effectively since they have ways to recur it.
As for PtE, its really good in Zoo, most Zoo decks want 3-4 since its really cheap removal that kills almost everything and it doesn't have the downside of giving your opponent life like StP. So no I don't like that DD alone was really that format warping, all of the cards that fight it are all reasonable to good cards to play anyways.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
neither teachings or tron/post variants are going to be running any thoughtseize which isn't really an answer for the deck anyways. More aggressive aggro decks like 1 drop zoo and boros are only going to be running 2 paths to scape out a bit of extra room for Burn.
This deck also can play the control game. Its a combo control that can win early grind you down a bit then combo off when your most vulnerable. if any card in that list needs to be unbanned its jitte or sword of the meek.
But Teachings and Tron/Post will be running Spell Snare, yes? And possibly Repeal for Post. Thoughtseize isn't an answer to the combo specifically, it's a way to get the Hexmage out of their hand that can also be used against pretty much any other deck... which was essentially my point. When I said "White decks," I was thinking control. I can see how those decks wouldn't want to run as many, but honestly it doesn't matter if they lose to Depths a lot because they don't run enough Paths to hit it often enough. That's the trade-off you make for building your deck that way -- maximum damage with minimum protection.
I suppose I should make it known that everything I say on the subject of Depths is theoretical. I've never played with or against the deck or combo. But as to your second paragraph, I am fully aware that the deck is capable of that. But before Thopter-Sword was added to the Dark Depths decks, they were far from dominant in old Extended... which everyone keeps saying is essentially the same format.
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"Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I suppose I should make it known that everything I say on the subject of Depths is theoretical. I've never played with or against the deck or combo. But as to your second paragraph, I am fully aware that the deck is capable of that. But before Thopter-Sword was added to the Dark Depths decks, they were far from dominant in old Extended... which everyone keeps saying is essentially the same format.
They actually where just getting popular when people started combining the combos into the deck. Honestly I think just strait up DD or UBg DD was a lot harder match up. I played with and against all versions of the deck in my play test group.
It beat the pants off of hypergen which was why it took it a bit to get popular because no one was sure how good it was at first. Kinda like how tarmogoyf was a $3 rare for the first few months. Also when you(hypothetically meaning anyone) were a noob and tried to run dark depths everyone made fun of you. Getting made fun of by nerds is something one can never forget
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
They actually where just getting popular when people started combining the combos into the deck. Honestly I think just strait up DD or UBg DD was a lot harder match up. I played with and against all versions of the deck in my play test group.
It beat the pants off of hypergen which was why it took it a bit to get popular because no one was sure how good it was at first. Kinda like how tarmogoyf was a $3 rare for the first few months. Also when you(hypothetically meaning anyone) were a noob and tried to run dark depths everyone made fun of you. Getting made fun of by nerds is something one can never forget
Loved the bolded part, haha!
Well, for Depths being a harder match up, that could've been because of your deck. Everything I've read says that Depths, while powerful, was not a problem before the vastly more powerful Thopter-Sword combo was added. But again, I've never experienced this stuff first hand.
Also, just so it's known, I'm not crusading for the unbanning of Depths because I think the ban is unjust or unwarranted. It is definitely absurdly powerful, I'm just not sure it's ban-worthy, and I think the banned list should be as small as possible.
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"Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Well, for Depths being a harder match up, that could've been because of your deck. Everything I've read says that Depths, while powerful, was not a problem before the vastly more powerful Thopter-Sword combo was added. But again, I've never experienced this stuff first hand.
Also, just so it's known, I'm not crusading for the unbanning of Depths because I think the ban is unjust or unwarranted. It is definitely absurdly powerful, I'm just not sure it's ban-worthy, and I think the banned list should be as small as possible.
the thoper combo didn't get banned because of DDT. It got banned because of UW teachings which I ran lol.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Forcing a deck to play certain cards incase a certain combo is played is the definition of format warping. Sorry depths has no business in the format.
Slipknot, you lost a couple notches mentioning unbanning sword of the meek. You onviously are the guy who loves locking out your opponent with broken interactions. I would have no problem unbanning Jitte. After some play testing its really not that bad and there are plenty of answers spead across all the colors to shut it down. But SOtM has no place in the format.
the thoper combo didn't get banned because of DDT. It got banned because of UW teachings which I ran lol.
The thopter combo got banned because it was broken and unbeatable.
DDT was strictly better than DD because it had two plans that were equally as powerful and were both easy to assemble with few answers to both plans. You try and fight DD+Hexmage they grind you out with Thopter Sword. You try and fight Thopter Sword and then they just kill you with a 20/20. It had the ability to go "Oops, I win." with an early 20/20 and still had Thopter Sword to back it up and play the control game. But DDT was significantly harder to play then Standard DD since you needed to know which one to go for and it often used things like Gifts Ungiven to help assemble the combo.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
DDT was strictly better than DD because it had two plans that were equally as powerful and were both easy to assemble with few answers to both plans. You try and fight DD+Hexmage they grind you out with Thopter Sword. You try and fight Thopter Sword and then they just kill you with a 20/20. It had the ability to go "Oops, I win." with an early 20/20 and still had Thopter Sword to back it up and play the control game. But DDT was significantly harder to play then Standard DD since you needed to know which one to go for and it often used things like Gifts Ungiven to help assemble the combo.
regular DD was better in the main deck especially against control as it allowed you to run a few more counterspells and other disruption. A guy that was in my playtest group gave the list we made to one of his cousins/nephew I don't remember the relation, but top 8ed with it. It was DD with thoper in sideboard.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Forcing a deck to play certain cards incase a certain combo is played is the definition of format warping. Sorry depths has no business in the format.
What cards are people being forced to play, exactly? That's been mentioned several times, but I see no need to run any dedicated hate for Dark Depths, just cards most decks would already be playing.
And don't talk about Slipknot "going down a few notches". If people can't express their opinions without being judged, the forum cannot operate well.
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"Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
What cards are people being forced to play, exactly? That's been mentioned several times, but I see no need to run any dedicated hate for Dark Depths, just cards most decks would already be playing.
And don't talk about Slipknot "going down a few notches". If people can't express their opinions without being judged, the forum cannot operate well.
Expressing that he wants a broken card unbanned to run a broken interaction, I will say what I want. I explained my feelings.
DD forces people to run white, black or blue to deal with a 20/20 indestructable card. The makes 2 colors 'bad' to play in the format because they cant deal with a deck(s) being played in the format. Making the card pool smaller do to a deck(s) or interaction(s), is bad for the format.
DD forces people to run white, black or blue to deal with a 20/20 indestructable card. The makes 2 colors 'bad' to play in the format because they cant deal with a deck(s) being played in the format. Making the card pool smaller do to a deck(s) or interaction(s), is bad for the format.
No, it does not make Red or Green "bad". It simply means that Monored, Monogreen, and RG decks have bad match ups with Depths. Every deck will have bad match ups. Besides, I'm not sure it matters. Elves is the only Monogreen deck in the format, and it can race Depths nut draws. Either RDW will be hated out, and so won't matter, or it will be powerful enough to have a presence in the format and simply have a bad match up against Depths. I don't think a RG deck would be good enough without splashing to be Naya, Jund, or RUG, and that has nothing to do with Depths.
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"Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. When you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
DDT was like Hive Mind in legacy. You summon an almost unstoppable fatty (emrakul or Marit Lage) or you kill them with a secondary win con (hive mind or thopter foundry)
Expressing that he wants a broken card unbanned to run a broken interaction, I will say what I want. I explained my feelings.
DD forces people to run white, black or blue to deal with a 20/20 indestructable card. The makes 2 colors 'bad' to play in the format because they cant deal with a deck(s) being played in the format. Making the card pool smaller do to a deck(s) or interaction(s), is bad for the format.
Red and Green are both fine but the fact is almost every deck will be in 2-3 colors because the fixing is good enough to allow it and as a result most decks will be in a color with something thats good against it. The only decks which don't play White/Blue/Black are Elves! and Mono-Red. Elves really doesn't care all that much about a 20/20 since if can often times just go off and kill the other player on turn 2-3 anyways so thats not a problem. And Mono-Red historically has an awful MU with combo anyways since mono-red doesn't have any disruption but it still has answers to it with Dead/Gone and Stingscourger. I'm not crusading for it to be unbanned but I think saying its completely broken and can't be unbanned might be untrue.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
No, it does not make Red or Green "bad". It simply means that Monored, Monogreen, and RG decks have bad match ups with Depths. Every deck will have bad match ups. Besides, I'm not sure it matters. Elves is the only Monogreen deck in the format, and it can race Depths nut draws. Either RDW will be hated out, and so won't matter, or it will be powerful enough to have a presence in the format and simply have a bad match up against Depths. I don't think a RG deck would be good enough without splashing to be Naya, Jund, or RUG, and that has nothing to do with Depths.
Red and Green are both fine but the fact is almost every deck will be in 2-3 colors because the fixing is good enough to allow it and as a result most decks will be in a color with something thats good against it. The only decks which don't play White/Blue/Black are Elves! and Mono-Red. Elves really doesn't care all that much about a 20/20 since if can often times just go off and kill the other player on turn 2-3 anyways so thats not a problem. And Mono-Red historically has an awful MU with combo anyways since mono-red doesn't have any disruption but it still has answers to it with Dead/Gone and Stingscourger. I'm not crusading for it to be unbanned but I think saying its completely broken and can't be unbanned might be untrue.
Ill just agree to disagree with everyone who think DD isnt format warping and leave it at that.
I will say if DD gets unbanned, they might as well go without a banned list and figure out the format on the fly. It will make it terrible to play in the beggining and the in-fighting among players will be terrible. Everyone has their pet deck/archtype they want viable to play. Not everyone will be able to play their pet from yesteryear. Its just something everyone is going to have to deal with.
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List of notable stuff Nix is good against:
Hypergenesis
Ancestral Vision
Dread Return
Living End
Tormod's Crypt
Ravenous Trap
Anything casted by Bloodbraid Elf
Engineered Explosives for Zero
Chalice of the Void for Zero
Actually, in 2009 Extended, I suggested Nix as a viable sideboard option card for Dredge decks.
It worked out to be very very good. It won me games and made my Hypergenesis matchup extremely favourable.
All I had to do was always leave 1 blue mana up.
Why? It offers multiple hate options.
I played 4 Nix in my sideboard and used them to deal with:
Tormod's Crypt (By far the most played card against Dredge.)
Ravenous Trap (Shocks your opponent into losing.:o)
Engineered Explosives for 0 (Prevents Zombies from dissappearing.)
Hypergenesis (Really, they didnt even expect this card from Dredge. Most players didnt even know this card until I tapped 1 blue and flashed it across the table. They were reading it with surprised faces.)
Dread Return (Against opposing Dredge decks. Quite the shocker too, considering they dont get to Dread Return their key card, (Sphinx/Iona/FKZ))
Spell Pierce, most of the time, wouldnt have been able to save me from Trap/Crypt. So Nix was better.
2. then type 6 or 9
3. Scroll Back here
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[CARD]Hypergenesis
[/CARD][CARD]Narcomoeba
[/CARD][CARD]Arcbound Ravager
[/CARD][CARD]Sensei's Divining Top
[/CARD][CARD]Skullclamp
[/CARD][CARD]Sword of the Meek
[/CARD]
(I removed Glimpse of Nature.)
Edit: RE: Nix
If you think Nix is even close to playable, wouldn't you rather just be a Spellstutter Sprite deck like UW Faeries?
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
I was actually talking about the year when elves first broke out. it was extended PTQ season 08-09 not 09-10. The UB tron deck was the biggest deck because it had main deck night of souls' betrayal, Engineered explosives, chalice of the void, damnation. It was by far the best deck at the time.
Again I will reinterate: elves are a creature based strategy which is easily disrupted. They can't win on turn 1-2. Maybe turn 3 but that is with the nutz draw, but turn 3-4 is where they typically go off and win. This is fishing, with any cheap removal or sweepers and a bit of understanding of the deck it is easily beat.
Hypergenesis I will give you is a bit broken. Elves, dredge, and Blue based control are the only decks that can even go 50/50 with it. Zoo has a hate bear and chalice of the void is alright, but both of these can easily be destroyed.
Only in dredge, would I ever run this card.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Jitte is just a card that is sweet for creature-on-creature battles, and not much more. That seems perfectly fair to me.
I agree with you that trying to ban Elf Combo is a bit silly.
Edit: Oh, hey, Modern is a format.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Fair enough. I think you are underestimating elves. I have seen it go off turn 2 quite regularly and walk over the best control decks. You just dont have the mana or spells on turn 2 or 3 to stop the interaction. Creature based or not, its still fast combo.
As for nuking dredge before the format even gets going, the deck loses quite a bit going from legacy to modern. In the play testing I have seen dredge cant compete with the likes of elves or hypergenesis and without a decent to god hand most control decks can hate it out. Granted if the dredge player gets the god hand they can destroy most decks on turn 2 or 3, but its quite hit or miss.
Not at all. You don't have to bounce him. You can exile the Marit Lage token with Path to Exile, which will already be one of the most highly played cards in the format. The thing about the Dark Depths combo is that while it is certainly very powerful, it almost certainly wouldn't be format-warping, because Blue, White, and Black all have very good answers to the combo that they want to be playing already. Even if Red and Green don't have answers (they might, I just can't think of any off the top of my head), I don't honestly think that matters. Outside of Elves, which can race the combo, there probably won't be a competitive deck that doesn't at least splash Blue, White, or Black anyway.
This deck forced other decks to run 4 path instead of 2-3 and forced non-white decks to main deck cards that they normally wouldn't.
This is the definition of Format Warping.
Now the only format warping deck is hypergenesis or elves. Although hypergen seems like a tougher deck, and it probably wins this combo mirror 60% of the time.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
White decks should already be running 4 Path. It's the best removal spell in the format. Blue already wants to run Spell Snare and possibly Repeal. Black already wants to be running Thoughtseize. I fail to see any format warping there. The card requires exactly zero dedicated hate, unlike Hypergenesis or Dredge.
neither teachings or tron/post variants are going to be running any thoughtseize which isn't really an answer for the deck anyways. More aggressive aggro decks like 1 drop zoo and boros are only going to be running 2 paths to scape out a bit of extra room for Burn.
This deck also can play the control game. Its a combo control that can win early grind you down a bit then combo off when your most vulnerable. if any card in that list needs to be unbanned its jitte or sword of the meek.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
God no, Sword of the Meek is one of the last cards I would consider taking off the list only slightly behind Top and Skullclamp. The thing with the combo is that its really easy to assemble and it stops aggro decks in their tracks once its online and it becomes literally impossible to race. Not to mention nothing short of Leyline of the Void or Extirpate actually answers the combo effectively since they have ways to recur it.
As for PtE, its really good in Zoo, most Zoo decks want 3-4 since its really cheap removal that kills almost everything and it doesn't have the downside of giving your opponent life like StP. So no I don't like that DD alone was really that format warping, all of the cards that fight it are all reasonable to good cards to play anyways.
But Teachings and Tron/Post will be running Spell Snare, yes? And possibly Repeal for Post. Thoughtseize isn't an answer to the combo specifically, it's a way to get the Hexmage out of their hand that can also be used against pretty much any other deck... which was essentially my point. When I said "White decks," I was thinking control. I can see how those decks wouldn't want to run as many, but honestly it doesn't matter if they lose to Depths a lot because they don't run enough Paths to hit it often enough. That's the trade-off you make for building your deck that way -- maximum damage with minimum protection.
I suppose I should make it known that everything I say on the subject of Depths is theoretical. I've never played with or against the deck or combo. But as to your second paragraph, I am fully aware that the deck is capable of that. But before Thopter-Sword was added to the Dark Depths decks, they were far from dominant in old Extended... which everyone keeps saying is essentially the same format.
They actually where just getting popular when people started combining the combos into the deck. Honestly I think just strait up DD or UBg DD was a lot harder match up. I played with and against all versions of the deck in my play test group.
It beat the pants off of hypergen which was why it took it a bit to get popular because no one was sure how good it was at first. Kinda like how tarmogoyf was a $3 rare for the first few months. Also when you(hypothetically meaning anyone) were a noob and tried to run dark depths everyone made fun of you. Getting made fun of by nerds is something one can never forget
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Loved the bolded part, haha!
Well, for Depths being a harder match up, that could've been because of your deck. Everything I've read says that Depths, while powerful, was not a problem before the vastly more powerful Thopter-Sword combo was added. But again, I've never experienced this stuff first hand.
Also, just so it's known, I'm not crusading for the unbanning of Depths because I think the ban is unjust or unwarranted. It is definitely absurdly powerful, I'm just not sure it's ban-worthy, and I think the banned list should be as small as possible.
the thoper combo didn't get banned because of DDT. It got banned because of UW teachings which I ran lol.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Slipknot, you lost a couple notches mentioning unbanning sword of the meek. You onviously are the guy who loves locking out your opponent with broken interactions. I would have no problem unbanning Jitte. After some play testing its really not that bad and there are plenty of answers spead across all the colors to shut it down. But SOtM has no place in the format.
The thopter combo got banned because it was broken and unbeatable.
regular DD was better in the main deck especially against control as it allowed you to run a few more counterspells and other disruption. A guy that was in my playtest group gave the list we made to one of his cousins/nephew I don't remember the relation, but top 8ed with it. It was DD with thoper in sideboard.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
What cards are people being forced to play, exactly? That's been mentioned several times, but I see no need to run any dedicated hate for Dark Depths, just cards most decks would already be playing.
And don't talk about Slipknot "going down a few notches". If people can't express their opinions without being judged, the forum cannot operate well.
Expressing that he wants a broken card unbanned to run a broken interaction, I will say what I want. I explained my feelings.
DD forces people to run white, black or blue to deal with a 20/20 indestructable card. The makes 2 colors 'bad' to play in the format because they cant deal with a deck(s) being played in the format. Making the card pool smaller do to a deck(s) or interaction(s), is bad for the format.
No, it does not make Red or Green "bad". It simply means that Monored, Monogreen, and RG decks have bad match ups with Depths. Every deck will have bad match ups. Besides, I'm not sure it matters. Elves is the only Monogreen deck in the format, and it can race Depths nut draws. Either RDW will be hated out, and so won't matter, or it will be powerful enough to have a presence in the format and simply have a bad match up against Depths. I don't think a RG deck would be good enough without splashing to be Naya, Jund, or RUG, and that has nothing to do with Depths.
Red and Green are both fine but the fact is almost every deck will be in 2-3 colors because the fixing is good enough to allow it and as a result most decks will be in a color with something thats good against it. The only decks which don't play White/Blue/Black are Elves! and Mono-Red. Elves really doesn't care all that much about a 20/20 since if can often times just go off and kill the other player on turn 2-3 anyways so thats not a problem. And Mono-Red historically has an awful MU with combo anyways since mono-red doesn't have any disruption but it still has answers to it with Dead/Gone and Stingscourger. I'm not crusading for it to be unbanned but I think saying its completely broken and can't be unbanned might be untrue.
Ill just agree to disagree with everyone who think DD isnt format warping and leave it at that.
I will say if DD gets unbanned, they might as well go without a banned list and figure out the format on the fly. It will make it terrible to play in the beggining and the in-fighting among players will be terrible. Everyone has their pet deck/archtype they want viable to play. Not everyone will be able to play their pet from yesteryear. Its just something everyone is going to have to deal with.