Because Time Spiral block cards, including the "timeshifted" cards, such as LoA, are going to be legal in this new Constructed (not Eternal) format.
I think that Merfolk, unlike many other Modern decks, will be able to deal with the asymmetry of ghost quarter, (as opposed to the symmetry of Wasteland) thanks to Aether Vial, so I'd support putting it in, even if the land count has to be upped past the 20-22 you see in the Legacy incarnations. 24 lands might be just right with ghost quarter. Trying to replace Force / Daze just isn't going to happen, and though Cryptic is powerful, it is far too blue-intensive for a deck which will be running something along the lines of 14 Basics-duals-fetches / 4 Mutavault / 4 Ghost Quarter. That is eight lands which don't make mana. I'd suggest 4x Remand & 4x Spell Pierce as the 'standard' counterspell package.
Spreading Seas doesn't advance our victory / sufficiently hinder the opponent to be worth running I think, more creatures / removal would be more useful. Lack of removal is such a problem for Merfolk, and while Dismember is pretty solid, PtE is better, and either way we need to dedicate four precious deckslots to 'em. Spreading Seas *might* be SB-worthy, but that is all.
All of the top decks are extremely weak to Spreading seas (Jund, Junk, 12Post, Zoo, any deck running man lands) and being able to force-island walk the zoo deck is actually pretty relevant.
Combo exists but isn't quite fast enough for the deck to need remands, pierces and leaks, and spreading seas is definitely a main deck card.
Here is my test list for reference:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Sygg, River Guide
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Spreading Seas
4 Cryptic Command
9 Island
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Wanderwine Hub
4 Mutavault
All of the top decks are extremely weak to Spreading seas (Jund, Junk, 12Post, Zoo, any deck running man lands) and being able to force-island walk the zoo deck is actually pretty relevant.
Combo exists but isn't quite fast enough for the deck to need remands, pierces and leaks, and spreading seas is definitely a main deck card.
Here is my test list for reference:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Sygg, River Guide
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Spreading Seas
4 Cryptic Command
9 Island
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Wanderwine Hub
4 Mutavault
In your testing are you finding Cursecatcher is needed? I have been seeing alot of sway away from cursecatcher and towards Cosi's Trickster. Thoughts?
In your testing are you finding Cursecatcher is needed? I have been seeing alot of sway away from cursecatcher and towards Cosi's Trickster. Thoughts?
I've been feeling like cutting them for tricksters, but at the end of the day they both die to path, and sometimes cursecatchers ability is really relevant, and one of the reasons I feel comfortable only running Cryptic. (although, tapping them out and drawing a card is usually what i'm doing with cryptic =P )
I've got yet another dumb idea: So rather than trying to find substitutes for what worked in Legacy, how about taking it in a completely different direction. The tribe itself is fairly strong, but the control elements are less than stellar. As a result, it may be prudent to start in a different direction. So how's this for a completely-untested-and-likely-to-fail list?
I realize it's an odd idea, but once you have the vial up and running, the burnwillow's trick could be a very productive way to use your mana during the turn.
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THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Instead of going the traditional merfolk-legacy way, the strat here is to quickly abuse vial and swarm the board with a bit of removal/counter back-up.
I like the spreading seas idea a lot though as it hurts the key decks and doesn't cost you a card, not to mention how relevant islandwalk can be. I think that in order to support cryptic you would need to cut either mutavaults and or ghost quarters. IMO the power that those lands bring to this deck > that of Cryptic command. As one of the above posters says Cryptic will usually be used to tap down plus draw a card, 4-drop counters aren't really feasible, and if that turns out to be the case just run sleep as it does basically the same thing. It taps them down, only sorcery though, and keeps them that way to give you an extra turn to draw an extra card. And it's mana cost can be supported with Muta's & Quarters.
Aggro will be a problem and that is why the white splash seems so good to me.
I thought that Mutavault becomes worse without Standstill which is, where I believe, the card became so good in the deck. Adaptive Automaton allows another Lord, as well as receiving the benefits of the other Lords. Also, Automaton costs three color-less which helps out when you draw the colorless lands...
Speaking of the colorless lands, I think 8 Land Destruction Lands are required, at least for now, in this format. With the presence of Zoo, 12-Post, and Tron, I think being able to take down lands at anytime is going to be necessary. Ghost Quarter is a better land for the early game. Allowing you to take down the opposing player's Duals or an early Post or Vesua.
Which is why I also added Spreading Seas. A card that is another draw spell, along with taking out one of their lands, and helping you crash in for extra damage with Lord of Atlantis out.
And, for the counter-spell suite: I decided to go with Disrupting Shoal, Turn Aside, and Spell Pierce. Shoal is the closest thing we have to Force of Will in the format, and it allows for some serious tempo advantage. It's a counter people often don't think about when playing this format, so they don't always play around it. Turn Aside is an obscure card, but, I believe, an effective choice. There's a lot of Zoo out there. And with Zoo comes, Punishing Fire, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, and a number of other burn spells. Turn Aside really comes out of nowhere hitting these spells.
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I thought that Mutavault becomes worse without Standstill which is, where I believe, the card became so good in the deck. Adaptive Automaton allows another Lord, as well as receiving the benefits of the other Lords. Also, Automaton costs three color-less which helps out when you draw the colorless lands...
Speaking of the colorless lands, I think 8 Land Destruction Lands are required, at least for now, in this format. With the presence of Zoo, 12-Post, and Tron, I think being able to take down lands at anytime is going to be necessary. Ghost Quarter is a better land for the early game. Allowing you to take down the opposing player's Duals or an early Post or Vesua.
Which is why I also added Spreading Seas. A card that is another draw spell, along with taking out one of their lands, and helping you crash in for extra damage with Lord of Atlantis out.
And, for the counter-spell suite: I decided to go with Disrupting Shoal, Turn Aside, and Spell Pierce. Shoal is the closest thing we have to Force of Will in the format, and it allows for some serious tempo advantage. It's a counter people often don't think about when playing this format, so they don't always play around it. Turn Aside is an obscure card, but, I believe, an effective choice. There's a lot of Zoo out there. And with Zoo comes, Punishing Fire, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, and a number of other burn spells. Turn Aside really comes out of nowhere hitting these spells.
Okay, I've got a really silly question: Why are people going with Adaptive Automaton over Merfolk Sovereign? The latter not only has a relevant ability, is not an artifact (less vulnerable to hate), but even pitches to force has cooler artwork.
PS: Is it really necessary to quote that entire huge block of text to make a two-word post?
PPS: I like pentabeater's build, particularly the Mana Tithe, but 8 one-drops seems a bit excessive, I'd go with a 3/3 split myself between cursecatcher and cosi's trickster, or maybe a 4/2 in favor of cursecatcher.
I went with Adaptive Automaton because of the amount of colorless mana. It could be correct that Sovereign is the right choice, but, I think that Automaton is comparable to Mutavault. It's colorless, and I looked at it like it required a "one-time" colorless activation.
I went with Adaptive Automaton because of the amount of colorless mana. It could be correct that Sovereign is the right choice, but, I think that Automaton is comparable to Mutavault. It's colorless, and I looked at it like it required a "one-time" colorless activation.
The colourless mana requirement is a fair point, but Legacy decks generally manage the double-blue requirement (half the time it is vialed in anyway) with a similar number of islands. That does bring up your manabase though: 20 lands is far too few given that: a) Ghost Quarter is a net land loss for you most of the time, unlike Wasteland, b) You're running Sower of Temptation, c) You have to pay mana to cast your main-deck counterspells. A Legacy build running 2x Sower is generally playing 22 lands, and with the 16-lords, half of them at 3 cmc, 20 lands is simply too few. Be careful when taking land counts from Legacy decks without factoring in things like this. I would suggest either cutting the Sowers in favour of more countermagic and going with 22-lands, or cutting something else to raise the land count all the way to 23. I've almost never seen a Legacy deck run fewer than 13 islands, and your blue requirements are heavier, not lighter.
That does bring up your manabase though: 20 lands is far too few given that: a) Ghost Quarter is a net land loss for you most of the time, unlike Wasteland, b) You're running Sower of Temptation, c) You have to pay mana to cast your main-deck counterspells. A Legacy build running 2x Sower is generally playing 22 lands, and with the 16-lords, half of them at 3 cmc, 20 lands is simply too few.
Thanks for the advice! I think I'll cut the Sowers entirely, run one less Tectonic Edge, and run 15 Island. Since Tectonic Edge requires a mana to destroy a non-basic, it's more expendable than Ghost Quarter.
Plus, with the 3 Spreading Seas factored in, 10 virtual Land Destruction cards are plenty.
Moving on, what to do with the sideboard? Obviously Zoo is the elephant in the room, and should be accounted for. I was thinking something like:
In a field full of zoo decks with x/3's everywhere, maybe there will be less punishing fire combo at some point, but right now it's everywhere and you're just playing right into it with merfolk. Legacy merfolk folds hard to zoo and other creature decks, because their dudes can't hang with the better beaters those decks have and the lords are hit with spot removal. Legacy merfolk is good because many many legacy decks lack mid-sized creatures and spot removal. Very few modern decks will lack either of those.
Vial is a powerful card, but I suspect that looking to the best vial deck in legacy won't solve the question of how to use it in modern.
Edit: and for that matter, islandwalk seems p underwhelming in a format where they banned the primary incentive to run islands, our pal jace.
Kira is pretty much a boss every time I have played with her. She help keep their mana tied with punishing fire and blanks cards like grim lavamancer on your creatures. She is also a 3 drop which is very important at keeping diverse mana costs against engineered explosives. She also has flying which is very relevent in ground stalls or when you are facing down tarmogoyfs and knight of the reliquary.
I like the idea of Phantasmal Image alot. I never gave that card much thought in this archtype till now.
Thought Scour is terrible in BV. How many flashback spells are being run? Say roughly 15. This gives you a roughly 38% chance of milling one flashback spell. And even if you do, you paid one mana to cantrip and dump an overcosted spell. Alchemy, Geistflame, Devil's play, etc. all cost much more to flash back than your average card, so you're not getting full value out of it.
You'd much rather play Ponder. At least that generates a tangible advantage.
If you want to draw cards, play Silvergill Adepts and Sygg, River Cutthroats. People sometimes disregard Sygg because they feel like they can't guarantee 3 damage a turn, but even if he just replaces himself, that is fine. It is like having more silvergill adepts.
Considering many people are talking about running Spreading Seas has anyone considered Aquitect's Will? It seems like a better choice due to costing one less and not being an enchantment, making it more permanent. The requirement of a merfolk in play to draw seems like it would generally be irrelevant since you should always have a merfolk around.
Considering many people are talking about running Spreading Seas has anyone considered Aquitect's Will? It seems like a better choice due to costing one less and not being an enchantment, making it more permanent. The requirement of a merfolk in play to draw seems like it would generally be irrelevant since you should always have a merfolk around.
Aquitect's Will makes the land an Island along with its other land types, Spreading Seas just makes the land an Island.
The idea of Spreading Seas is to turn off dual lands and Loci lands, instead of just providing an Island for Islandwalk.
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He was timeshifted in Timespiral so he is legal in Modern.
haha I had to look this up too to make sure, also worth noting is that the commander deck cards are NOT legal
All of the top decks are extremely weak to Spreading seas (Jund, Junk, 12Post, Zoo, any deck running man lands) and being able to force-island walk the zoo deck is actually pretty relevant.
Combo exists but isn't quite fast enough for the deck to need remands, pierces and leaks, and spreading seas is definitely a main deck card.
Here is my test list for reference:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Sygg, River Guide
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Spreading Seas
4 Cryptic Command
9 Island
4 Adarkar Wastes
4 Wanderwine Hub
4 Mutavault
In your testing are you finding Cursecatcher is needed? I have been seeing alot of sway away from cursecatcher and towards Cosi's Trickster. Thoughts?
I've been feeling like cutting them for tricksters, but at the end of the day they both die to path, and sometimes cursecatchers ability is really relevant, and one of the reasons I feel comfortable only running Cryptic. (although, tapping them out and drawing a card is usually what i'm doing with cryptic =P )
4 Merfolk Reejery
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Remand
4 Punishing Fire
1 Dismember
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Mutavault
4 Cascade Bluffs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Steam Vents
4 Island
I realize it's an odd idea, but once you have the vial up and running, the burnwillow's trick could be a very productive way to use your mana during the turn.
Quick list
4x Dark Confidant
4x Merrow Reejery
4x Curse Catcher
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Lord of Atlantis
3x Spell Snare
4x Remand
2x Cryptic Command
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Go for the Throat
4 Cosi's Trickster
4 Silvergil Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Meerow Reejery
2 Kira, the Great Glass Spinner
4 Path to Exile
2 Mana Tithe (yes, mana tithe, because force spike isn't legal)
3 Spell Pierce
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Mutavault
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Hallowed Fountain
6 Islands
1 Plains
Instead of going the traditional merfolk-legacy way, the strat here is to quickly abuse vial and swarm the board with a bit of removal/counter back-up.
I like the spreading seas idea a lot though as it hurts the key decks and doesn't cost you a card, not to mention how relevant islandwalk can be. I think that in order to support cryptic you would need to cut either mutavaults and or ghost quarters. IMO the power that those lands bring to this deck > that of Cryptic command. As one of the above posters says Cryptic will usually be used to tap down plus draw a card, 4-drop counters aren't really feasible, and if that turns out to be the case just run sleep as it does basically the same thing. It taps them down, only sorcery though, and keeps them that way to give you an extra turn to draw an extra card. And it's mana cost can be supported with Muta's & Quarters.
Aggro will be a problem and that is why the white splash seems so good to me.
EDH
WBG Karador's Sepulcher GBW
16-Lord Merfolk
The ideas behind the changes:
I thought that Mutavault becomes worse without Standstill which is, where I believe, the card became so good in the deck. Adaptive Automaton allows another Lord, as well as receiving the benefits of the other Lords. Also, Automaton costs three color-less which helps out when you draw the colorless lands...
Speaking of the colorless lands, I think 8 Land Destruction Lands are required, at least for now, in this format. With the presence of Zoo, 12-Post, and Tron, I think being able to take down lands at anytime is going to be necessary. Ghost Quarter is a better land for the early game. Allowing you to take down the opposing player's Duals or an early Post or Vesua.
Which is why I also added Spreading Seas. A card that is another draw spell, along with taking out one of their lands, and helping you crash in for extra damage with Lord of Atlantis out.
And, for the counter-spell suite: I decided to go with Disrupting Shoal, Turn Aside, and Spell Pierce. Shoal is the closest thing we have to Force of Will in the format, and it allows for some serious tempo advantage. It's a counter people often don't think about when playing this format, so they don't always play around it. Turn Aside is an obscure card, but, I believe, an effective choice. There's a lot of Zoo out there. And with Zoo comes, Punishing Fire, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, and a number of other burn spells. Turn Aside really comes out of nowhere hitting these spells.
merfolk sovereign...?
pitches to forcehas cooler artwork.PS: Is it really necessary to quote that entire huge block of text to make a two-word post?
PPS: I like pentabeater's build, particularly the Mana Tithe, but 8 one-drops seems a bit excessive, I'd go with a 3/3 split myself between cursecatcher and cosi's trickster, or maybe a 4/2 in favor of cursecatcher.
I'll definitely try both though.
Also, the Mana Tithe build is nice, and would've been great if Stoneforge Mystic wasn't banned.
Thanks for the advice! I think I'll cut the Sowers entirely, run one less Tectonic Edge, and run 15 Island. Since Tectonic Edge requires a mana to destroy a non-basic, it's more expendable than Ghost Quarter.
Plus, with the 3 Spreading Seas factored in, 10 virtual Land Destruction cards are plenty.
Moving on, what to do with the sideboard? Obviously Zoo is the elephant in the room, and should be accounted for. I was thinking something like:
x4 Dismember
x4 Hurkyl's Recall
x3 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
x3 Spell Pierce
x1 Tectonic Edge (Because I will run three main deck now.)
I feel like if you are making a deck list adding in more lords Mutavault should be the last thing to be cut since they power it up...
Currently Playing:
R Mono Red Goblins R
UW Charitable Donations WU
U Merfolk U
Commander
G Verdeloth Token G
RGW Uril, the Mist Stalker WGR
Vial is a powerful card, but I suspect that looking to the best vial deck in legacy won't solve the question of how to use it in modern.
Edit: and for that matter, islandwalk seems p underwhelming in a format where they banned the primary incentive to run islands, our pal jace.
4x Coralhelm Commander
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergill Adept
2x Merfolk Sovreign
2x Phantasmal Image
4x Aether Vial
4x Spreading Seas
2x Disrupting Shoal
2x Spell Pierce
2x Remand
4x Ghost Quarter
4x Mutavault
14x Island
Vialing out Phantasmal Image as their Goyf after they attack with it has worked pretty well.
Otherwise it is basically another lord or it cantrips.
Currently Playing:
R Mono Red Goblins R
UW Charitable Donations WU
U Merfolk U
Commander
G Verdeloth Token G
RGW Uril, the Mist Stalker WGR
I like the idea of Phantasmal Image alot. I never gave that card much thought in this archtype till now.
Pauper EDH:
UBPsychatogBU
UInvisible StalkerU
Not playing anything else. Money is tight.
This was suggested on like page 2 and yes, it might work.
Currently Playing:
R Mono Red Goblins R
UW Charitable Donations WU
U Merfolk U
Commander
G Verdeloth Token G
RGW Uril, the Mist Stalker WGR
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
Aquitect's Will makes the land an Island along with its other land types, Spreading Seas just makes the land an Island.
The idea of Spreading Seas is to turn off dual lands and Loci lands, instead of just providing an Island for Islandwalk.