No your missing my point and its because you havent played the deck much I think. Also you might not have noticed that blue has been shifted to tempo and away from hard control by WOTC in this format.
When playing this deck you aren't relying on top decks, you are simply rewarded for getting to this stage. There's a big difference there. Most control decks fizzle out when they get to this point because they are blue and they run out of steam. Blue needs Jace and card drawing suite to keep the pressure up, we do not. We need to empty our hands as fast as possible in most cases, blue's control suite does not fit with this notion.
When you have gotten to top deck mode, everything you draw will either be a lock piece, a walker, or a threat removal. There's no fluff, besides lands.
Also you mentioned countermagic, and it is most definitely a weakness, but it needs to be more than your average Delver deck runs. Mystical Teachings is the only deck i see played with any regularity that has the correct level of countermagic to nullify the strat here.
I've played 16 matches.
And I've seen blue tempo decks become the norm for blue, but i don't think that's to the detriment of hard control. Hard control is a casualty of the metagame, I'd say. But that's a discussion for another time.
And I'm just saying, in this world, other decks seem to have far better topdecks, and being reliant on them is fundamentally unsound when other decks can manipulate the top of their library or just draw way more cards than you. A lot of decks will have a way to get out of the lock, especially if they're outdrawing you and can assemble more bounce spells/permanent removal than you can draw lock pieces.
And I've found that it's enough for the first couple games, but once they know a little more of your list, and know what spells to counter and when, Delver lists will pack more than enough.
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What are these cards that people are drawing against you that break the lock so easily?
Echoing truth is a sideboard card, and you have Nevermore in response.
Disenchant / Qasli Pridemage? Breaks one piece at a time, our defenses hold.
Maestrom Pulse is admittedly potentially problematic, but its a sorcery and our game vs. Jund is very strong regardless. Keep extra lock piece in your hand if possible. Game 2 Nevermore names Maelstrom and Pithing needle names Liliana. GG.
I've got a mono-U list. And people draw combinations of Cryptics, Ancient Grudges, etc. See, the thing is that I've found the deck to be just unable to apply pressure, leaving the opponent with as many as 6-7 turns to cantrip, just plain draw, and so on, until they have enough bounce/removal spells to take it out. Also, as soon as you draw a redundant planeswalker or 2, I've found the deck to be in a lot of trouble.
As for Nevermore, well, I've NEVER found it to be an effective sideboard card, and you're talking to someone who was maindecking 4 Meddling Mages in extended for YEARS.
I'm going to post my MonoU tezz list that functions in a similar vane here later, so you'll know what I'm talking about, but a deck reliant on the top of its deck will ALWAYS be inferior to a deck with the same overall power, but with a robust draw engine and a way to generate more cards at every point in the game.
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1. My monoU list plays 1 Ensnaring Bridge. It uses Tezzeret to get whatever lock pieces it needs.
2. Artifact finishers
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You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
1. My monoU list plays 1 Ensnaring Bridge. It uses Tezzeret to get whatever lock pieces it needs.
2. Artifact finishers
You are now into a whole different deck concept. I'm not saying the blue never works for ANY control... I am just offering up a hard control list with a different philosophy than your traditional "counter everything that moves" control deck theme.
Well, yes, "counter everything that moves" can't work. I'd argue that it almost never worked. I'm just saying that in my experience, blue has worked better than red, and for providing reasons why it actually works.
The MonoU tezz deck is still a lockdown deck in a similar fashion. But where R/W relies on the top of its deck, has to draw the right combination of lock pieces, and has no real way to apply pressure and prevent the opponent from drawing out, MonoU plays a robust draw engine, a multitude of tutor effects to get the perfect combination for whatever situation is at hand, and has the ability to very quickly apply significant pressure vie Epochrasites, Sword of Feast and Famine, and Vedalken Shackles.
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You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
Im quite familiar with both of those decks (especially MWC). This is something different, though the goal might be similar.
To be fair, this deck has been part of the conversation in the MWC thread for months (as you well know), but since that is not really updated often and this is specifcly built around Ajani, I can see the point of having it's own thread.
I have been waffling between R/W, and RWU super friends type builds. The most compelling reason to splash blue, after testing this for several months, is for Jace Beleren, and that can be done pretty easily. I like the fuel it gives alot, but it does steal slots from the core.
The most compelling reason to splash blue, after testing this for several months, is for Jace Beleren, and that can be done pretty easily. I like the fuel it gives alot, but it does steal slots from the core.
I just do not understand this. You are trying to empty your hand - not draw extra cards.
My gameplan is to
1. Stall long enough to play Wrath of God
2. PLay ensnaring bridge with a nearly empty hand
3. Play a planeswalker
If the board is clear I can play the walker first and start the clock ticking sooner.
You're pretty soft to decks that run gifts ungiven for iona + unburial rites, which seems to be every U/W deck out there these days. Your only way of beating it is already having elspeth on the table or nevermore and those would never resolve against a gifts deck.
You're pretty soft to decks that run gifts ungiven for iona + unburial rites, which seems to be every U/W deck out there these days. Your only way of beating it is already having elspeth on the table or nevermore and those would never resolve against a gifts deck.
Leyline of Sanctity blocks Gift's Ungiven from being cast.
I just do not understand this. You are trying to empty your hand - not draw extra cards.
My gameplan is to
1. Stall long enough to play Wrath of God
2. PLay ensnaring bridge with a nearly empty hand
3. Play a planeswalker
If the board is clear I can play the walker first and start the clock ticking sooner.
See, I really like draw when I have my soft lock in play, as I can look at my opponent's board and decide how much draw I can afford, and to be honest I never have much problem playing what I draw pretty quickly. Just because I run draw, does not mean I have to cast it until I need to- I just want more options, which I feel is critical for control in a broad metagame.
I mainly see the draw as a way to consistently assemble the lock, not a way to buffer it. Legacy White Stax would love some consistency in the form of draw.
Since Ensnaring Bridge loves empty hands, I'd rather use cantrips and looting to filter cards in this deck, though.
That being said, I tested this deck against UWR Delver (New Blue Zoo) and the Delver deck kicked this deck's butt around half the time. Delver and Steppe Lynx hit way too hard for their own good. Lynx can even attack through a Hellbent Bridge if its side has enough fetchlands. Geist of Saint Traft not biting it to spot removal and only having 2 power also hurts, and Tiago punishes this deck for having the wrong lock pieces out (if you've got a Bridge but no Leyline, Tiago burns you out). A well-timed Remand is indeed good game when a deck is this aggressive.
As far as I can tell, the OP has zero sideboard cards for this common match-up, and UWR Delver can easily steal entire matches.
I mainly see the draw as a way to consistently assemble the lock, not a way to buffer it. Legacy White Stax would love some consistency in the form of draw.
Since Ensnaring Bridge loves empty hands, I'd rather use cantrips and looting to filter cards in this deck, though.
That being said, I tested this deck against UWR Delver (New Blue Zoo) and the Delver deck kicked this deck's butt around half the time. Delver and Steppe Lynx hit way too hard for their own good. Lynx can even attack through a Hellbent Bridge if its side has enough fetchlands. Geist of Saint Traft not biting it to spot removal and only having 2 power also hurts, and Tiago punishes this deck for having the wrong lock pieces out (if you've got a Bridge but no Leyline, Tiago burns you out). A well-timed Remand is indeed good game when a deck is this aggressive.
As far as I can tell, the OP has zero sideboard cards for this common match-up, and UWR Delver can easily steal entire matches.
I carry no side for uwr delver because i just love this matchup. Delver carries very few actual hard threats, and we have answers to them all. They cannot deal with our lock other than to counater it before it resolves. Many a game i fought through remand after snapcaster'd remand only to lay 1 bridge or cast 1 wrath and completely turn the game around. Tempo hates cards like Ghostly Prison and Wrath.
I carry no side for uwr delver because i just love this matchup. Delver carries very few actual hard threats, and we have answers to them all. They cannot deal with our lock other than to counater it before it resolves. Many a game i fought through remand after snapcaster'd remand only to lay 1 bridge or cast 1 wrath and completely turn the game around. Tempo hates cards like Ghostly Prison and Wrath.
It may hate them, but a good tempo player will be prepared for attempts to slow them down, and will have ways to get past.
What is your testing gauntlet like? What kind of setting?
Thats a fair question. I play MTGO exclusively, I have won a couple gold 2 mans with this list but I really don't have the time or desire to play in bigger tourneys. I play competitively, but for fun.
Thats a fair question. I play MTGO exclusively, I have won a couple gold 2 mans with this list but I really don't have the time or desire to play in bigger tourneys. I play competitively, but for fun.
I do not mean this as a criticism (seeing as I play MTGO and rarely enter tournaments either- even 2 man), but that testing pool limits your perspective with regards to the tournament metagame. Even if you were only participating in larger daily events you would still have a better understanding of how this deck can effect the metagame.
Have you tried out Magus of the Tabernacle? I am casually testing a build that runs 3x MotT as the only creatures, and the early results are interesting. I also am wondering about including Bridge and Ghostly Prison. It gets really annoying when I keep drawing GP when I have the Bridge and/or Leyline already in play. I am finding that there are a lot of redundant cards in the deck and it makes for dead draws.
I do not mean this as a criticism (seeing as I play MTGO and rarely enter tournaments either- even 2 man), but that testing pool limits your perspective with regards to the tournament metagame. Even if you were only participating in larger daily events you would still have a better understanding of how this deck can effect the metagame.
Have you tried out Magus of the Tabernacle? I am casually testing a build that runs 3x MotT as the only creatures, and the early results are interesting. I also am wondering about including Bridge and Ghostly Prison. It gets really annoying when I keep drawing GP when I have the Bridge and/or Leyline already in play. I am finding that there are a lot of redundant cards in the deck and it makes for dead draws.
The primer was never intended to be used as a tournament guide. It is simply a primer for a deck that can assassinate a certain meta. If you have a compatible meta then you can consider such a deck.
I like Bridge and Ghostly Prison in tandem. They fix each others' cracks and seal the attack lock together. The Jund match-up is only so good because Ghostly Prison subs in when Bridge gets Maelstrom Pulsed.
The primer was never intended to be used as a tournament guide. It is simply a primer for a deck that can assassinate a certain meta. If you have a compatible meta then you can consider such a deck.
Fair enough. I just recall your recent assertion that control was alive and well in Modern, just not counter based control, and I thought you used this deck as an example. I could have misunderstood though.
Fair enough. I just recall your recent assertion that control was alive and well in Modern, just not counter based control, and I thought you used this deck as an example. I could have misunderstood though.
Alive and well? It could be that's for sure. Once people break the chains of blue. Blue is too bloated.
I can't agree with that, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there.
Have you considered W/B? You lose Ajani/Lightning Helix, but at the same time you gain Liliana of the Veil, Lingering Souls, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, and the power of Discard in combo matchups: This deck could definitely profit from jamming a pile of Thoughtseizes and Inquisition of Kozileks.
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Go to my blog, Musings of the False God, for in-depth guides playing the game, from the building blocks of deck design to deceiving your opponent through clever game play!
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
I can't agree with that, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there.
Have you considered W/B? You lose Ajani/Lightning Helix, but at the same time you gain Liliana of the Veil, Lingering Souls, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, and the power of Discard in combo matchups: This deck could definitely profit from jamming a pile of Thoughtseizes and Inquisition of Kozileks.
When Sorin first came out the first thing I did was try a WB version. After a bit of testing the only card that I felt was worth a spot in the deck was Liliana.
Sorin is basically a bad Elspeth in a deck like this because his ult is useless. We have no need for black's discard suite either. White removes the threats after the fact, in spectacular fasion. I would much rather have the life gain of helix and use Ajani as the finisher.
All of that said, Liliana of the Veil is probably the most powerful 3cc card in the format. She has a better ult than any other black planeswalker, and she controls the game while she builds up to her ult. Its nearly worth running black ONLY for Liliana. I am sure someone could make a competitive list.
When playing this deck you aren't relying on top decks, you are simply rewarded for getting to this stage. There's a big difference there. Most control decks fizzle out when they get to this point because they are blue and they run out of steam. Blue needs Jace and card drawing suite to keep the pressure up, we do not. We need to empty our hands as fast as possible in most cases, blue's control suite does not fit with this notion.
When you have gotten to top deck mode, everything you draw will either be a lock piece, a walker, or a threat removal. There's no fluff, besides lands.
Also you mentioned countermagic, and it is most definitely a weakness, but it needs to be more than your average Delver deck runs. Mystical Teachings is the only deck i see played with any regularity that has the correct level of countermagic to nullify the strat here.
And I've seen blue tempo decks become the norm for blue, but i don't think that's to the detriment of hard control. Hard control is a casualty of the metagame, I'd say. But that's a discussion for another time.
And I'm just saying, in this world, other decks seem to have far better topdecks, and being reliant on them is fundamentally unsound when other decks can manipulate the top of their library or just draw way more cards than you. A lot of decks will have a way to get out of the lock, especially if they're outdrawing you and can assemble more bounce spells/permanent removal than you can draw lock pieces.
And I've found that it's enough for the first couple games, but once they know a little more of your list, and know what spells to counter and when, Delver lists will pack more than enough.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
Echoing truth is a sideboard card, and you have Nevermore in response.
Disenchant / Qasli Pridemage? Breaks one piece at a time, our defenses hold.
Maestrom Pulse is admittedly potentially problematic, but its a sorcery and our game vs. Jund is very strong regardless. Keep extra lock piece in your hand if possible. Game 2 Nevermore names Maelstrom and Pithing needle names Liliana. GG.
As for Nevermore, well, I've NEVER found it to be an effective sideboard card, and you're talking to someone who was maindecking 4 Meddling Mages in extended for YEARS.
I'm going to post my MonoU tezz list that functions in a similar vane here later, so you'll know what I'm talking about, but a deck reliant on the top of its deck will ALWAYS be inferior to a deck with the same overall power, but with a robust draw engine and a way to generate more cards at every point in the game.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
-MTG Salvation.
1. Blue hates an empty hand
2. Blue lacks finishers
2. Artifact finishers
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
You are now into a whole different deck concept. I'm not saying the blue never works for ANY control... I am just offering up a hard control list with a different philosophy than your traditional "counter everything that moves" control deck theme.
The MonoU tezz deck is still a lockdown deck in a similar fashion. But where R/W relies on the top of its deck, has to draw the right combination of lock pieces, and has no real way to apply pressure and prevent the opponent from drawing out, MonoU plays a robust draw engine, a multitude of tutor effects to get the perfect combination for whatever situation is at hand, and has the ability to very quickly apply significant pressure vie Epochrasites, Sword of Feast and Famine, and Vedalken Shackles.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
I have been waffling between R/W, and RWU super friends type builds. The most compelling reason to splash blue, after testing this for several months, is for Jace Beleren, and that can be done pretty easily. I like the fuel it gives alot, but it does steal slots from the core.
Some cards I have messed with are Restoration Angel (to bounce Walls), and Silent Arbiter as a replacement for Prison.
Lastly, I loath drawing dead cards, so I have been including a 2-3 Shining Shoal to make use of surplus Leylines.
I won't post my builds here, because they might be different from what you are looking to promote.
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I just do not understand this. You are trying to empty your hand - not draw extra cards.
My gameplan is to
1. Stall long enough to play Wrath of God
2. PLay ensnaring bridge with a nearly empty hand
3. Play a planeswalker
If the board is clear I can play the walker first and start the clock ticking sooner.
Leyline of Sanctity blocks Gift's Ungiven from being cast.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Since Ensnaring Bridge loves empty hands, I'd rather use cantrips and looting to filter cards in this deck, though.
That being said, I tested this deck against UWR Delver (New Blue Zoo) and the Delver deck kicked this deck's butt around half the time. Delver and Steppe Lynx hit way too hard for their own good. Lynx can even attack through a Hellbent Bridge if its side has enough fetchlands. Geist of Saint Traft not biting it to spot removal and only having 2 power also hurts, and Tiago punishes this deck for having the wrong lock pieces out (if you've got a Bridge but no Leyline, Tiago burns you out). A well-timed Remand is indeed good game when a deck is this aggressive.
As far as I can tell, the OP has zero sideboard cards for this common match-up, and UWR Delver can easily steal entire matches.
I carry no side for uwr delver because i just love this matchup. Delver carries very few actual hard threats, and we have answers to them all. They cannot deal with our lock other than to counater it before it resolves. Many a game i fought through remand after snapcaster'd remand only to lay 1 bridge or cast 1 wrath and completely turn the game around. Tempo hates cards like Ghostly Prison and Wrath.
What is your testing gauntlet like? What kind of setting?
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Have you tried out Magus of the Tabernacle? I am casually testing a build that runs 3x MotT as the only creatures, and the early results are interesting. I also am wondering about including Bridge and Ghostly Prison. It gets really annoying when I keep drawing GP when I have the Bridge and/or Leyline already in play. I am finding that there are a lot of redundant cards in the deck and it makes for dead draws.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
The primer was never intended to be used as a tournament guide. It is simply a primer for a deck that can assassinate a certain meta. If you have a compatible meta then you can consider such a deck.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Alive and well? It could be that's for sure. Once people break the chains of blue. Blue is too bloated.
Have you considered W/B? You lose Ajani/Lightning Helix, but at the same time you gain Liliana of the Veil, Lingering Souls, Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, and the power of Discard in combo matchups: This deck could definitely profit from jamming a pile of Thoughtseizes and Inquisition of Kozileks.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
When Sorin first came out the first thing I did was try a WB version. After a bit of testing the only card that I felt was worth a spot in the deck was Liliana.
Sorin is basically a bad Elspeth in a deck like this because his ult is useless. We have no need for black's discard suite either. White removes the threats after the fact, in spectacular fasion. I would much rather have the life gain of helix and use Ajani as the finisher.
All of that said, Liliana of the Veil is probably the most powerful 3cc card in the format. She has a better ult than any other black planeswalker, and she controls the game while she builds up to her ult. Its nearly worth running black ONLY for Liliana. I am sure someone could make a competitive list.