Yes, the same shell, but ones attack with SFM and batterskull, others with goyf, delver, and others add some black distrumption and afaik tomstalker.
To me the ignorant one looks to be you so whatever.
Legacy's diversity is very funny.
How many of those decks are based around brainstorm, fow, wasteland and fetchlands?
You got those, then you have the combo decks, that don't completely dominate everything because they lose to fow and discard decks.
Then you got some aggro decks like goblins, merfolk and zoo. These last 2 kinda suck now. Only goblins is left thanks to the new land, and it's not that good either ever since SFM got printed.
But if playing legacy's diversity is being able to play against:
Dredge, Belcher, ANT, High Tide, Hive Mind, Spanish Inquisition, Omni Tell, Reanimator, Doomsday,
then I prefer Modern by a long shot, since I'll lose every time against these decks if I don't pack blue (and to a lesser extent black) disruption in my deck.
The only decks strictly built around Wasteland are Loam and Lands, and that's more based on the fact that Life of the Loam is such a strong engine. Some decks like Goblins/Death and Taxes/Merfolk/tempo decks run it for the tempo generated in stripping lands, but not all decks require or need Wasteland. In fact, Wasteland is good in that it can help mitigate your opponent's greedy manabase. And Back to Basics/Price of Progress do just as good a job if you can't get Wastelands yourself.
The only decks that are 'strictly based' on Brainstorm also tend to run Ponder at the minimum, and doesn't tell you the style of the deck. High Tide uses Brainstorm, and other cantrip variants like Burn uses Lightning Bolt, and other Lightning Bolt variants.
Without Force of Will, the format would lose the tool that prevents it turning into a T1 donkfest. It's not great vs Aggro, but it allows a healthy format. The only decks that strictly want Force of Will are Canadian Thresh (RUG Delver), and other decks wanting to play the 7-turn attrition plan. Even if you're not running Blue, there's answers like Silence/Pyrostatic Pillar/Chains of Mephistopheles/etc. that stymie combo.
Every deck in Legacy runs fetches, and it's no more a telling sign of a deck than to ask "Are fetchlands legal in this format?". Guess what, they have been in practically every 2+-coloured deck, and most single-coloured decks in each format they've been in. Even Burn runs 8-12 , as they are good for Grim Lavamancer/Searing Blaze.
In short, Legacy is a format where you make your cards do what you want them to do. You don't need to use Wasteland/Force of Will/Brainstorm/Flooded Strand and their ilk to have fun, nor are decks strictly built around just for that shell. The fact that there are so many decks that you can (and are able to) build and play with is a testament to the opposite.
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Eternal Masters 2015 Legacy Champion. Has an unnatural love towards perfectly reasonable respect for Lightning Bolt.
And again @lord, I don't need to be an expert on the current (the word that I wanted to use before was current, no actual) situation of legacy to be able to compare both formats.
Then come back when you have current practice to go with your current theory.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
Yes, the same shell, but ones attack with SFM and batterskull, others with goyf, delver, and others add some black distrumption and afaik tomstalker.
You're just getting ridiculous now. RUG Delver and Stone-Blade use the "same shell" in about the same way that Goblins and Death & Taxes use the same shell; i.e. they don't, there just happens to be some overlap in the cards they play.
Yes, the same shell, but ones attack with SFM and batterskull, others with goyf, delver, and others add some black distrumption and afaik tomstalker.
To me the ignorant one looks to be you so whatever.
Multiple choice:
A) "Things no Legacy player ever said for $200, Alex"
B) "You know how I know you never played Legacy?"
C) "But I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night"
D) All of the above Moderator Action: E) Infraction issued for spam
Due to real-life obligations, I am taking a long break from Magic which may include missing the local Legacy GP. Apologies for not being able to keep my threads updated.
For those of you who play Modern and played in Legacy back in 2005, how do Pod decks compared to the pre-Vengevine Survival of the Fittest decks? Those types of strategies are among my favorite when I'm drafting a Cube, and it would fill the one niche in Legacy that is not easily available as a tier 1 strategy (not too excited about Birthing Pod in Nic Fit).
If I do decide to get into Modern at some point in the future, that might be the first deck I try to put together.
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Due to real-life obligations, I am taking a long break from Magic which may include missing the local Legacy GP. Apologies for not being able to keep my threads updated.
For those of you who play Modern and played in Legacy back in 2005, how do Pod decks compared to the pre-Vengevine Survival of the Fittest decks? Those types of strategies are among my favorite when I'm drafting a Cube, and it would fill the one niche in Legacy that is not easily available as a tier 1 strategy (not too excited about Birthing Pod in Nic Fit).
If I do decide to get into Modern at some point in the future, that might be the first deck I try to put together.
A very interesting point of comparison.
My guess would be that the Pod decks are slightly "faster" because it's easier to assemble a combo finish. Old survival deck were pretty much old school midrange with a powerful card advantage engine built in. They didn't so much "combo out" as "grind out".
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Then come back when you have current practice to go with your current theory.
Again, don't need to, and I'll come back whenever I want, don't need a bunch of legacy lovers to tell me what to do.
Have fun discussing this thing between legacy lovers :).
I don't know if you're trolling or just very stupid ^^ But your posts make a good laugh and are funny, so keep the good work up, i like laughing and having fun.
I would say many modern decks have the same shell, because the best ones are Midrange deck. In Legacy we have Control, Tempo, Aggro, Midrange, Combo as Tier 1 and in Modern.... yeah magical christmas midrange.
Modern diversity is the illusion that many decks can compete with Midrange decks (they can't). Many people at a LGS play subpar decks because of money reason so diversity is an illusion in modern.
The majority of players that play modern for fun play it because they can't afford Legacy or because Legacy is dead in their area. I mean a deck like Maverick or Nic Fit (plays Thragtusk and is very good against blue decks, so i think more Cards find a home in Legacy than Modern because of the larger diversity) are a lot more fun than all the midrange decks in Modern (except Birthing Pod maybe, the Combo Midrange deck^^)
Yeah whatever. Not gonna start an insult chain even though it's what you deserve.
People that play modern are the ones that can't afford legacy you say? Lol :rofl:. Modern is miles better than legacy for most.
Also, legacy is the next vintage, you should be playing your super favorite format now instead of imposing your ideas here before no one plays it anymore.
Edit: was curious to see the latest tournament results of legacy and went to see the top8 of the last SCG legacy event.
21 wastelands and 28 brainstorms in the top8 out of a possible 32. Nice diversity. Fows? Didn't count them, but it has to be more or less in the same range.
If you like blue, legacy is definitely your format :rofl:.
What was legacy's diversity 2 years after its release btw? I think it was all about 3 decks mostly.
Yes, right, more skillcap! Legacy is for the super intelligent and skilled players, while modern is for the ******* hahaha...
Have a nice day, I'm done with this thread, mostly because I've had this conversation many times already, and got me banned a couple years ago in your legacy subforum that I don't enter anymore.
Sure if you prefer a format with a lower skill cap and less complexity and diversity. Then Modern is better. i agree
I really don't see why everyone has so much butt hurt. The real secret is if you are a good player you can play in any format and do well. The only difference is knowing how to play against the range of decks in any given format.
I prefer modern but this is because I live in South Korea, where there hasn't been a sanctioned legacy tournament... ever.
Now legacy players I want to ask something, why is no one playing it on Modo? I'd be willing to put in the 600-1000 dollars for Deathblade, or UB Tezz but I literally see one event fire a week.
It's kind of obvious that Modern is less complex and less skill intensive than Legacy. Many skill testing cards are not available (Wasteland, Cabal Therapy,...) or banned (SDT, GSZ, JTMS,...)
There are plenty of skill intensive cards and decks. If it wasn't skill intensive good players wouldn't be winning tournaments.
The more interesting question is why Legacy players like to rag on Modern so much? Or why people consider themselves legacy players? When it's modern season I play modern, when it's std season I play std , limited etc...
I mean is it because there isn't a legacy season? Even if modern got axed you would never see it. Magic is an international game, and they won't alienate entire countries. I just don't get the anger.
Legacy was hurt a lot a few years ago on Modo. Mental Misstep was banned but not on Modo for several weeks so many people cashed out/ stoped playing it. In my area we have 2 tournaments a week but i also play Legacy online because i can borrow nearly all cards.
The future of Legacy/ Magic is on Modo, and Legacy is slightly growing/recovering on Modo so i would recommend to buy staples now. they are a safe investment.
I'd like to but like I said, any worthwhile deck has a price tag of 1000ish tickets and literally 1 event fires a week :/
Every once and awhile I'll buy a time vault or a mana drain for when they make the big power nine classic push.
What was legacy's diversity 2 years after its release btw? I think it was all about 3 decks mostly.
Yes, right, more skillcap! Legacy is for the super intelligent and skilled players, while modern is for the ******* hahaha...
1) There are a huge number of "Top decks", not all of them are playable by your average player.
1A)
RUG tempo, spells cost 1 mana, no card advantage
BUG tempo, powerful spells costing 1-4 mana utilizing DRS
Sneak attack, powerful combo deck putting GB or emmy into play to win
Stoneblade/Deathblade, powerful control deck
Jund, As the modern deck with dual lands
Storm, 12 cantrips, 8 targeted discard and high powered high versatility combo.
ELVES!, a creature based combo deck which can also aggro
and many more.
2) Most decks run brainstorm in legacy, brainstorm is required to allow force of will to be viable, brainstorm holds the format together. Without it combo decks would stomp on the format like an elephant.
3) Brainstorm/Jace/Cabal therapy are three of the most skill testing cards in the history of magic this is mathematically provable. Slight of hand has two options, card A or card B. As such it's incredibly weak and virtually pointless to play. Preordain/Ponder are close to the power level needed to see play. Ponder has 6 possible stacks and a shuffle effect. Seven options, but more importantly fetch lands compound the options. Brainstorm if cast with 5 cards in hand has over 50 options and even more once factoring in fetches. Simply thinking and being capable of doing math makes it definitively provable that legacy has a higher skill cap because cards cost less and can do more.
There are plenty of skill intensive cards and decks.
I also agree with this. To me it's something like this.
Standard = Deck * Skill * 10
Draft = (Deck * 10) + (Skill * 100)
Modern = Deck * Skill * 100
Legacy = Deck * Skill * 1000
Modern (depending on deck choice) has a reasonable skill cap but comparing a format where you play slight of hand/serum visions to a format where you can cast brainstorm and saying it has a higher skill cap is just wrong and we can prove it with math on the options provided by each card.
That's not how math works, and that's not how skill works. You seem to have a very uh strange view of what skill means. An argument could be made that because of the more limited card options in modern it is actually more skill intensive, since you don't have the same catch-all answers that you find in legacy; this applies to things like sleight of hand and serum visions compared to brainstorm, as well. As someone who's played standard, legacy, and modern, I can say that I've found modern to be far more skill intensive because you dint have the easy outs that legacy gives you.
That's not how math works, and that's not how skill works. You seem to have a very uh strange view of what skill means. An argument could be made that because of the more limited card options in modern it is actually more skill intensive, since you don't have the same catch-all answers that you find in legacy; this applies to things like sleight of hand and serum visions compared to brainstorm, as well. As someone who's played standard, legacy, and modern, I can say that I've found modern to be far more skill intensive because you dint have the easy outs that legacy gives you.
Having more options translates to more chances to do it right/wrong. This translates to more skill. If what you're saying was true standard would be more skill testing than modern. Here's a hint it's not.
More options is is more skill testing. Legacy has more options. Legacy is more skill testing.
Having more options translates to more chances to do it right/wrong. This translates to more skill. If what you're saying was true standard would be more skill testing than modern. Here's a hint it's not.
More options is is more skill testing. Legacy has more options. Legacy is more skill testing.
If you are talking about deck building, I agree with you. If you are talking about piloting, I disagree. Once the deck is built and you have played it a good amount of times that you know it inside out, the only 'skill' involved in piloting is top decking.
Now if you want to talk about deck building options as skill intensive, I agree with you. In Standard you may have 3 cards to fill a certain spot in a deck, where in Modern you may have 6 for the same type deck, and in Legacy you can have a dozen or more.
Again, don't need to, and I'll come back whenever I want, don't need a bunch of legacy lovers to tell me what to do.
"I don't need to know anything about what I'm talking about to argue a point!"
Seriously, come off this. Get some knowledge of what you're talking about and then talk about it. The reason people aren't taking you seriously is because you keep continually showing you don't know what you're talking about.
Edit: was curious to see the latest tournament results of legacy and went to see the top8 of the last SCG legacy event.
21 wastelands and 28 brainstorms in the top8 out of a possible 32. Nice diversity. Fows? Didn't count them, but it has to be more or less in the same range.
Oh look, and it's this same nonsensical point again.
Decks having some cards in common doesn't mean they're the same deck. You keep talking about "look! Lots of Wastelands and Brainstorm!" So? As I've pointed out over and over and over and over and over and over again, those two cards can go in quite different decks, a point you've continually ignored. They're very versatile cards that can easily go in a lot of archetypes, so continually whining about how they're in a lot of decks means essentially nothing in terms of deck diversity.
Your complaint about the high number of Wastelands is especially funny considering one of the Top 8 decks that played 4x Wasteland is Lands, an extremely unique deck.
If you like blue, legacy is definitely your format :rofl:.
Yes, there's a lot of Blue in Legacy (although there are plenty of non-Blue decks). But again, that doesn't mean it's not diverse. You're just hung up on this "a lot of decks play these cards" and ignoring the fact they're very different decks. Wasteland, Force of Will, Brainstorm, and the fetchlands go into a lot of decks because, as I noted, they're versatile and can go into a lot of decks (and only a few decks actually play all of them).
Closing this thread as its just become a legacy is better then modern thread for the last week. Handing out about 4 or 5 cards didnt helpe either. Should you want to prove legacy is a better format then modern, feel free to do so in the legacy sub. In the modern sub people generally like modern. Also, with the Modern sub gaining in popularity and starting to rival even standards... Id perfer not to have Modern look like the flamewar Sub. Locked.
To me the ignorant one looks to be you so whatever.
The only decks strictly built around Wasteland are Loam and Lands, and that's more based on the fact that Life of the Loam is such a strong engine. Some decks like Goblins/Death and Taxes/Merfolk/tempo decks run it for the tempo generated in stripping lands, but not all decks require or need Wasteland. In fact, Wasteland is good in that it can help mitigate your opponent's greedy manabase. And Back to Basics/Price of Progress do just as good a job if you can't get Wastelands yourself.
The only decks that are 'strictly based' on Brainstorm also tend to run Ponder at the minimum, and doesn't tell you the style of the deck. High Tide uses Brainstorm, and other cantrip variants like Burn uses Lightning Bolt, and other Lightning Bolt variants.
Without Force of Will, the format would lose the tool that prevents it turning into a T1 donkfest. It's not great vs Aggro, but it allows a healthy format. The only decks that strictly want Force of Will are Canadian Thresh (RUG Delver), and other decks wanting to play the 7-turn attrition plan. Even if you're not running Blue, there's answers like Silence/Pyrostatic Pillar/Chains of Mephistopheles/etc. that stymie combo.
Every deck in Legacy runs fetches, and it's no more a telling sign of a deck than to ask "Are fetchlands legal in this format?". Guess what, they have been in practically every 2+-coloured deck, and most single-coloured decks in each format they've been in. Even Burn runs 8-12 , as they are good for Grim Lavamancer/Searing Blaze.
In short, Legacy is a format where you make your cards do what you want them to do. You don't need to use Wasteland/Force of Will/Brainstorm/Flooded Strand and their ilk to have fun, nor are decks strictly built around just for that shell. The fact that there are so many decks that you can (and are able to) build and play with is a testament to the opposite.
an unnatural love towardsperfectly reasonable respect for Lightning Bolt.The Kiwi third of The Salt Mine Podcast: An Australian Legacy Podcast
Then come back when you have current practice to go with your current theory.
You're just getting ridiculous now. RUG Delver and Stone-Blade use the "same shell" in about the same way that Goblins and Death & Taxes use the same shell; i.e. they don't, there just happens to be some overlap in the cards they play.
Multiple choice:
A) "Things no Legacy player ever said for $200, Alex"
B) "You know how I know you never played Legacy?"
C) "But I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night"
D) All of the above
Moderator Action: E) Infraction issued for spam
Please read the Forum Rules
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingIf I do decide to get into Modern at some point in the future, that might be the first deck I try to put together.
Legacy
UWR Miracles UWR
GWB Maverick GWB
GB Elves GB
UBR ANT UBR
RG Combo Lands RG
Vintage
BUG BUG Fish BUG
Modern
GBW
Junk PodMagic: the BuylistingA very interesting point of comparison.
My guess would be that the Pod decks are slightly "faster" because it's easier to assemble a combo finish. Old survival deck were pretty much old school midrange with a powerful card advantage engine built in. They didn't so much "combo out" as "grind out".
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Again, don't need to, and I'll come back whenever I want, don't need a bunch of legacy lovers to tell me what to do.
Have fun discussing this thing between legacy lovers :).
Yeah whatever. Not gonna start an insult chain even though it's what you deserve.
People that play modern are the ones that can't afford legacy you say? Lol :rofl:. Modern is miles better than legacy for most.
Also, legacy is the next vintage, you should be playing your super favorite format now instead of imposing your ideas here before no one plays it anymore.
Edit: was curious to see the latest tournament results of legacy and went to see the top8 of the last SCG legacy event.
21 wastelands and 28 brainstorms in the top8 out of a possible 32. Nice diversity. Fows? Didn't count them, but it has to be more or less in the same range.
If you like blue, legacy is definitely your format :rofl:.
PMed
Yes, right, more skillcap! Legacy is for the super intelligent and skilled players, while modern is for the ******* hahaha...
Have a nice day, I'm done with this thread, mostly because I've had this conversation many times already, and got me banned a couple years ago in your legacy subforum that I don't enter anymore.
I really don't see why everyone has so much butt hurt. The real secret is if you are a good player you can play in any format and do well. The only difference is knowing how to play against the range of decks in any given format.
I prefer modern but this is because I live in South Korea, where there hasn't been a sanctioned legacy tournament... ever.
Now legacy players I want to ask something, why is no one playing it on Modo? I'd be willing to put in the 600-1000 dollars for Deathblade, or UB Tezz but I literally see one event fire a week.
There are plenty of skill intensive cards and decks. If it wasn't skill intensive good players wouldn't be winning tournaments.
The more interesting question is why Legacy players like to rag on Modern so much? Or why people consider themselves legacy players? When it's modern season I play modern, when it's std season I play std , limited etc...
I mean is it because there isn't a legacy season? Even if modern got axed you would never see it. Magic is an international game, and they won't alienate entire countries. I just don't get the anger.
I'd like to but like I said, any worthwhile deck has a price tag of 1000ish tickets and literally 1 event fires a week :/
Every once and awhile I'll buy a time vault or a mana drain for when they make the big power nine classic push.
1) There are a huge number of "Top decks", not all of them are playable by your average player.
1A)
RUG tempo, spells cost 1 mana, no card advantage
BUG tempo, powerful spells costing 1-4 mana utilizing DRS
Sneak attack, powerful combo deck putting GB or emmy into play to win
Stoneblade/Deathblade, powerful control deck
Jund, As the modern deck with dual lands
Storm, 12 cantrips, 8 targeted discard and high powered high versatility combo.
ELVES!, a creature based combo deck which can also aggro
and many more.
2) Most decks run brainstorm in legacy, brainstorm is required to allow force of will to be viable, brainstorm holds the format together. Without it combo decks would stomp on the format like an elephant.
3) Brainstorm/Jace/Cabal therapy are three of the most skill testing cards in the history of magic this is mathematically provable. Slight of hand has two options, card A or card B. As such it's incredibly weak and virtually pointless to play. Preordain/Ponder are close to the power level needed to see play. Ponder has 6 possible stacks and a shuffle effect. Seven options, but more importantly fetch lands compound the options. Brainstorm if cast with 5 cards in hand has over 50 options and even more once factoring in fetches. Simply thinking and being capable of doing math makes it definitively provable that legacy has a higher skill cap because cards cost less and can do more.
I also agree with this. To me it's something like this.
Standard = Deck * Skill * 10
Draft = (Deck * 10) + (Skill * 100)
Modern = Deck * Skill * 100
Legacy = Deck * Skill * 1000
Modern (depending on deck choice) has a reasonable skill cap but comparing a format where you play slight of hand/serum visions to a format where you can cast brainstorm and saying it has a higher skill cap is just wrong and we can prove it with math on the options provided by each card.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Having more options translates to more chances to do it right/wrong. This translates to more skill. If what you're saying was true standard would be more skill testing than modern. Here's a hint it's not.
More options is is more skill testing. Legacy has more options. Legacy is more skill testing.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
If you are talking about deck building, I agree with you. If you are talking about piloting, I disagree. Once the deck is built and you have played it a good amount of times that you know it inside out, the only 'skill' involved in piloting is top decking.
Now if you want to talk about deck building options as skill intensive, I agree with you. In Standard you may have 3 cards to fill a certain spot in a deck, where in Modern you may have 6 for the same type deck, and in Legacy you can have a dozen or more.
Seriously, come off this. Get some knowledge of what you're talking about and then talk about it. The reason people aren't taking you seriously is because you keep continually showing you don't know what you're talking about.
Oh look, and it's this same nonsensical point again.
Decks having some cards in common doesn't mean they're the same deck. You keep talking about "look! Lots of Wastelands and Brainstorm!" So? As I've pointed out over and over and over and over and over and over again, those two cards can go in quite different decks, a point you've continually ignored. They're very versatile cards that can easily go in a lot of archetypes, so continually whining about how they're in a lot of decks means essentially nothing in terms of deck diversity.
Your complaint about the high number of Wastelands is especially funny considering one of the Top 8 decks that played 4x Wasteland is Lands, an extremely unique deck.
Yes, there's a lot of Blue in Legacy (although there are plenty of non-Blue decks). But again, that doesn't mean it's not diverse. You're just hung up on this "a lot of decks play these cards" and ignoring the fact they're very different decks. Wasteland, Force of Will, Brainstorm, and the fetchlands go into a lot of decks because, as I noted, they're versatile and can go into a lot of decks (and only a few decks actually play all of them).