The question, obviously is, is there enough staples in the circulation to the demand to flatline, assuming the player base is not crashing.
There are plenty of cards in circulation. There are certain entities that buy up any and every card in an area. I know people that are holding thousands of cards waiting for the price to get to where it is profitable to dump. Think 1000 SFM, or 2500 AV's, 1200 Ooze, 1000 Mutavaults. They buy these cards at market value knowing that once they cycle out of Standard or are unbanned they will sky rocket in price. Just look at BB and kitty. BB went from a $15 card to $80 over night. Yeah its settled down a bit since but those who had bought in made theirs off those who cashed out earlier. Kitty went from a sub dollar card to $2-$3 dollars. Foils are double digits now where they were maybe a dollar while banned.
Why do you think Goyf, Bob and Clique went up in price even after adding more to the supply? Because people are buying them up.
Essentially since no one knows how far you can go in spamming reprints before the game economy collapses it's best to play it safe and print conservatively, as seen with Modern Masters.
And then from there maybe gradually print more and more so that the buildup of supply isn't so sharp.
To entertain a challenge to everyone. No matter what is your stand on the current price situation: Come up with a mechanic to meaningfully reduce the price of modern staples w/o causing any doomsday scenarios.
Why? It only doesnt work for a select few. If attendance was dipping or LGS were closing because of lack of sales I might agree with you, but instead attendance is on the up tick and sales is good for all involved. I would say there is no need to lower prices as long as they are selling, which they are.
So you are against anyone who tries to make money? I dont see a problem with the practice. They are not stealing from anyone. Its a strictly financial thing to them, which is fine by me. Its a game with in a game some refuse to acknowledge. Speculating and playing the secondary market is just another aspect of Magic. Any hobby with a market to speak of has those that play the market and not the hobby.
To entertain a challenge to everyone. No matter what is your stand on the current price situation: Come up with a mechanic to meaningfully reduce the price of modern staples w/o causing any doomsday scenarios.
Wizards begins to start singles and set their prices.
Even though the player base is growing, there still is only a finite number of people Magic can attract. Growing the player base slowly is best for logistic reasons. Think of a TO who has used past attendance numbers to attain a hall and tables and chairs for an upcoming event, and the prices lower and there is a huge influx of players. Now the hall that TO rented is too small and they dont have enough seats or playing space. I have seen it happen recently locally. Expand that by hundreds, maybe thousands over a weekend at a large event. Growth is good, controlling that growth is just as important.
I dont think the player base would grow too much from a lowering of prices any way. Wotc would be lucky to keep about the same numbers. You would see a mass exodus if Wotc actively started screwing with the secondary market especially to lower prices.
It is a real delicate balance, fine line kind of thing.
Quote from Valanarch »
Wizards begins to start singles and set their prices.
Unless Wotc is going to start refusing business to those who dont sell for their MSRP, I dont see how this would change anything. SO what if Wotc came out and started selling fetches for $10 a pop. Those with the finances would scoop them up and mark them up. It would get to a point where Wotc would be actually losing money by printing a certain card because of market saturation, and eventually stop. Mean while those with the funds are sitting on piles of cheap fetches waiting for the price to go up. Same as now. It really is simple economics.
Even though the player base is growing, there still is only a finite number of people Magic can attract. Growing the player base slowly is best for logistic reasons. Think of a TO who has used past attendance numbers to attain a hall and tables and chairs for an upcoming event, and the prices lower and there is a huge influx of players. Now the hall that TO rented is too small and they dont have enough seats or playing space. I have seen it happen recently locally. Expand that by hundreds, maybe thousands over a weekend at a large event. Growth is good, controlling that growth is just as important.
I dont think the player base would grow too much from a lowering of prices any way. Wotc would be lucky to keep about the same numbers. You would see a mass exodus if Wotc actively started screwing with the secondary market especially to lower prices.
It is a real delicate balance, fine line kind of thing.
Quote from Valanarch »
Wizards begins to start singles and set their prices.
Unless Wotc is going to start refusing business to those who dont sell for their MSRP, I dont see how this would change anything. SO what if Wotc came out and started selling fetches for $10 a pop. Those with the finances would scoop them up and mark them up. It would get to a point where Wotc would be actually losing money by printing a certain card because of market saturation, and eventually stop. Mean while those with the funds are sitting on piles of cheap fetches waiting for the price to go up. Same as now. It really is simple economics.
Fair enough. The fetchlands will be reprinted in Standard eventually anyways, so I guess Modern will just have to wait for that.
To entertain a challenge to everyone. No matter what is your stand on the current price situation: Come up with a mechanic to meaningfully reduce the price of modern staples w/o causing any doomsday scenarios.
So you are against anyone who tries to make money? I dont see a problem with the practice. They are not stealing from anyone. Its a strictly financial thing to them, which is fine by me. Its a game with in a game some refuse to acknowledge. Speculating and playing the secondary market is just another aspect of Magic. Any hobby with a market to speak of has those that play the market and not the hobby.
I have an idea:
Make a magical christmasland event every year.
Every December, a random modern playable card over the 20 dollar mark will be given for free as an FNM promo.
Sure, some speculators will suffer, but for everyone else, certain deck will be easier to acces now.
They can keep doing this indefinitely.
Anyway, they already print one that gets over 30 dollars every block:
Crucible / Jitte / Bob / Tarmogoyf / Bitterblossom / Noble Hierarch / JTMS /Karn Liberated / LotV / Voice of Resurgence / ???
Speculators can still make lots of profit, but it will be actual speculation instead of the 100% profit 0% risk crap that it is right now.
IK, its a crazy idea that would cause the magicpocalypse, but damn, speculators/retailers drive the market in such an annoying way.
Pray that your local game store isn't trampled over by people there just to get their consolation Mind Sculptors.
I mean, the idea has some merit, it's just that I don't think stores can handle giving away cardboard like that, not without twisting it into a more demanding event where people have to work for their cardboard Grants 'n Benjamins.
Wizards begins to start singles and set their prices.
Unless Wotc is going to start refusing business to those who dont sell for their MSRP, I dont see how this would change anything. SO what if Wotc came out and started selling fetches for $10 a pop. Those with the finances would scoop them up and mark them up. It would get to a point where Wotc would be actually losing money by printing a certain card because of market saturation, and eventually stop. Mean while those with the funds are sitting on piles of cheap fetches waiting for the price to go up. Same as now. It really is simple economics.
If you could buy fetches for $10 a pop straight from the manufacturer why would anyone be able go scoop them up? How are they going to make any profit when anyone else can go and buy one for $10?
Wizards can sell a Verdant Catacombs to LGS and online stores for $4 with an MSRP of $9.99. Boom. Same business model as everything else at the store (even non-wizards items), local stores make their margins, people can buy whatever at MSRP. LGS runs out? Order more. No shortages, speculation, or gouging. Go buy a used one on ebay for 6-7 bucks if you want but there won't be any kind of inflated prices just because there's 10 cards that every deck runs and they were printed 10 years ago leading to the situation where there's 10x the people who want one than there are copies in existence.
Not saying it has to happen this way or even that this is the best way, but I take issue with people saying "if wizards reprints anything or goes to any other model conceivable it means the end of a game via mass exodus of players".
I see some pretty extreme views here. People wanting what essentially amounts to a market crash as far as prices, and those that think Tarmogoyf is a reasonably priced card, or even like that it'll be more expensive.
Wizards has committed to supporting Modern, correct? I have a question then: What, if anything, would be awful about slowly decreasing the prices of high-value modern staples? Can we all agree that this is a reasonable thing to ask for?
To entertain a challenge to everyone. No matter what is your stand on the current price situation: Come up with a mechanic to meaningfully reduce the price of modern staples w/o causing any doomsday scenarios.
A significant factor in Wizards currently conservative reprinting behavior is that they don't have enough control over how much a reprint will lower secondary market prices. To have more control over this, they could have a more adjustable print run. That is, they could be reactionary with their reprinting, so that when card prices approach where they want them to be, or if card prices drop too low too quickly, they can stop reprinting. That, coupled with smaller and more frequently released sets, would allow them to pinpoint which card prices should be lowered, and by how much.
Wizards begins to start singles and set their prices.
Unless Wotc is going to start refusing business to those who dont sell for their MSRP, I dont see how this would change anything. SO what if Wotc came out and started selling fetches for $10 a pop. Those with the finances would scoop them up and mark them up. It would get to a point where Wotc would be actually losing money by printing a certain card because of market saturation, and eventually stop. Mean while those with the funds are sitting on piles of cheap fetches waiting for the price to go up. Same as now. It really is simple economics.
If you could buy fetches for $10 a pop straight from the manufacturer why would anyone be able go scoop them up? How are they going to make any profit when anyone else can go and buy one for $10?
Wizards can sell a Verdant Catacombs to LGS and online stores for $4 with an MSRP of $9.99. Boom. Same business model as everything else at the store (even non-wizards items), local stores make their margins, people can buy whatever at MSRP. LGS runs out? Order more. No shortages, speculation, or gouging. Go buy a used one on ebay for 6-7 bucks if you want but there won't be any kind of inflated prices just because there's 10 cards that every deck runs and they were printed 10 years ago leading to the situation where there's 10x the people who want one than there are copies in existence.
Not saying it has to happen this way or even that this is the best way, but I take issue with people saying "if wizards reprints anything or goes to any other model conceivable it means the end of a game via mass exodus of players".
In your example, Wotc would have to police the LGS to make sure they dont charge more then MRSP.
If Wotc is printing fetches and charging $10, there will come a point it will cost more to print the card then its actual value. The market will get saturated and value will dive. Wotc stops printing because its not profitable anymore, different entities start grabbing all the fetches in their area and the supply starts drying up, prices start to rise.
Exactly the same as happens now. Cards are usually at there lowest while in Standard and in print. As soon as the sets stop print, the prices start to rise. Certain entities start buying up all the copies of 'X' card and prices spike.
Quote from -BetweenWalls »
Wizards has committed to supporting Modern, correct?
Availability and cost are 2 different things. Some want to say they are the same, but they are not. If people are going to pay high prices for cards, card prices will continue to be high.
Quote from Nyan »
I have an idea:
Make a magical christmasland event every year. Grin
Every December, a random modern playable card over the 20 dollar mark will be given for free as an FNM promo.
Sure, some speculators will suffer, but for everyone else, certain deck will be easier to acces now.
They can keep doing this indefinitely.
Anyway, they already print one that gets over 30 dollars every block:
Crucible / Jitte / Bob / Tarmogoyf / Bitterblossom / Noble Hierarch / JTMS /Karn Liberated / LotV / Voice of Resurgence / ???
Speculators can still make lots of profit, but it will be actual speculation instead of the 100% profit 0% risk crap that it is right now.
IK, its a crazy idea that would cause the magicpocalypse, but damn, speculators/retailers drive the market in such an annoying way.
You really think the LGS would pass up that cash cow? Wotc gives 'free' promo cards to give out and you think a LGS is going to just give away double digit cards? LGS will just say they never got them and sit on them and sell on ebay.
And its not the speculators/retailers that drive the prices up, its your fellow players that will pay the high dollar to be competitive. The speculator/retailer are just using the players desire to win to make a little profit. It happens in every hobby.
The problem with this thinking is, you are forgetting first and foremost Magic is a business. Cutting profits to lower card prices would shrink profits across the board. From Hasbro, to Wotc, to the hundreds, possibly thousands of LGS that make money off the game. Add in the massive hit the player base would take.
How is printing and selling more extremely desirable cards cutting profits? Goyf is $150 and WoTC gets 0% of the money everytime one is sold right now because they won't print more. Making more cards is the OPPOSITE of cutting profits.
To entertain a challenge to everyone. No matter what is your stand on the current price situation: Come up with a mechanic to meaningfully reduce the price of modern staples w/o causing any doomsday scenarios.
Why? It only doesnt work for a select few. If attendance was dipping or LGS were closing because of lack of sales I might agree with you, but instead attendance is on the up tick and sales is good for all involved. I would say there is no need to lower prices as long as they are selling, which they are.
Say reprints bring 'goyf down to $70, fetches to $25-$30, Bob and V-Clique down to $40. What do you think is more likely?
1) Players who already have these cards become enraged and quit the format entirely, creating a large scale net decrease in tournament attendance
2) Players who don't have these cards buy them an play in modern events, creating a large scale net increase in tournament attendance
Yeah I got them. It was discontinued for a reason. I doubt they will regress back to those times.
What was that reason?
You would have to go search for the exact wording but more or less the cost to mail them to each player was a huge cost.
Quote from puukorva »
One way to fight people doing business that hurts the game - pile up cards - is to be unpredictable with the reprints, e.g., print fretches uncommon or release next MM set with 2 rares per booster. Sure the ones doing second hand business can start piling up again, but it would be a lot more risky in a less stable environment.
This doesnt hurt anyone, just changes the game.
How about printing for the demand?
Its costly. You are suggesting cutting into profit margins for Wotc even more. Not to mention now Wotc has to hire people to mail these cards to people and listen to all the complaints that people didnt get their cards in time. LGS do a great service for the player base and that is you dont have to wait for your cards.
Quote from Honest Abe »
How is printing and selling more extremely desirable cards cutting profits? Goyf is $150 and WoTC gets 0% of the money everytime one is sold right now because they won't print more. Making more cards is the OPPOSITE of cutting profits.
Those Goyfs came from some where. They started in a Wotc package they got paid for. Being $150 doesnt mean Wotc didnt get theirs some where along the line.
Say reprints bring 'goyf down to $70, fetches to $25-$30, Bob and V-Clique down to $40. What do you think is more likely?
1) Players who already have these cards become enraged and quit the format entirely, creating a large scale net decrease in tournament attendance
2) Players who don't have these cards buy them an play in modern events, creating a large scale net increase in tournament attendance
The problem is no one knows. Just because you feel more people would enter the format, doesnt mean thats what would happen. Business's dont work with unknowns. They are very scary areas for any business.
I personally would say its a no gain situation simply from what I have seen in the past. Not just with Magic, but all types of businesses.
Personally I have no problems with slow reprintings of high dollar cards such as Modern Masters did it. I do have a problem with those who want $.10 cards across the board. With cards not having any value, the game would suffer terribly. I know I would stop playing competitively if the prize support to play the game was worthless product. I would demand cash prizes for cash entry tournaments. It would kill limited. There would be zero reason to draft or play sealed. (by the way, limited players do a great service to the community. Limited players open up tons of product for other players to play the game. Take that a way and the game suffers.)
In the end people forget Magic is a business before its a game. Everyone has made a choice to play the game.
Yeah I got them. It was discontinued for a reason. I doubt they will regress back to those times.
What was that reason?
You would have to go search for the exact wording but more or less the cost to mail them to each player was a huge cost.
Quote from puukorva »
One way to fight people doing business that hurts the game - pile up cards - is to be unpredictable with the reprints, e.g., print fretches uncommon or release next MM set with 2 rares per booster. Sure the ones doing second hand business can start piling up again, but it would be a lot more risky in a less stable environment.
This doesnt hurt anyone, just changes the game.
How about printing for the demand?
Its costly. You are suggesting cutting into profit margins for Wotc even more. Not to mention now Wotc has to hire people to mail these cards to people and listen to all the complaints that people didnt get their cards in time. LGS do a great service for the player base and that is you dont have to wait for your cards.
Quote from Honest Abe »
How is printing and selling more extremely desirable cards cutting profits? Goyf is $150 and WoTC gets 0% of the money everytime one is sold right now because they won't print more. Making more cards is the OPPOSITE of cutting profits.
Those Goyfs came from some where. They started in a Wotc package they got paid for. Being $150 doesnt mean Wotc didnt get theirs some where along the line.
Say reprints bring 'goyf down to $70, fetches to $25-$30, Bob and V-Clique down to $40. What do you think is more likely?
1) Players who already have these cards become enraged and quit the format entirely, creating a large scale net decrease in tournament attendance
2) Players who don't have these cards buy them an play in modern events, creating a large scale net increase in tournament attendance
The problem is no one knows. Just because you feel more people would enter the format, doesnt mean thats what would happen. Business's dont work with unknowns. They are very scary areas for any business.
I personally would say its a no gain situation simply from what I have seen in the past. Not just with Magic, but all types of businesses.
Personally I have no problems with slow reprintings of high dollar cards such as Modern Masters did it. I do have a problem with those who want $.10 cards across the board. With cards not having any value, the game would suffer terribly. I know I would stop playing competitively if the prize support to play the game was worthless product. I would demand cash prizes for cash entry tournaments. It would kill limited. There would be zero reason to draft or play sealed. (by the way, limited players do a great service to the community. Limited players open up tons of product for other players to play the game. Take that a way and the game suffers.)
In the end people forget Magic is a business before its a game. Everyone has made a choice to play the game.
I absolutely agree that cards NEED to have value. I just think know there is some work that needs to be done in regards to maximizing the amount of players in the game, without alientating people who spent their money on staples.
One way to fight people doing business that hurts the game - pile up cards - is to be unpredictable with the reprints, e.g., print fretches uncommon or release next MM set with 2 rares per booster. Sure the ones doing second hand business can start piling up again, but it would be a lot more risky in a less stable environment.
This.
One thousand times this.
Mommy Wizards is protecting baby speculator way too much.
Bocephus calls that speculation "a game", but a game that you can't lose isn't a game.
It's just straight up profit.
We all know with certainty that Bob and friends will keep going up at least until the next year.
One way to fight people doing business that hurts the game - pile up cards - is to be unpredictable with the reprints, e.g., print fretches uncommon or release next MM set with 2 rares per booster. Sure the ones doing second hand business can start piling up again, but it would be a lot more risky in a less stable environment.
This.
One thousand times this.
Mommy Wizards is protecting baby speculator way too much.
Bocephus calls that speculation "a game", but a game that you can't lose isn't a game.
It's just straight up profit.
We all know with certainty that Bob and friends will keep going up at least until the next year.
The fact you say you 'cant lose' speculating, shows me you know very little about speculation. Not every card is a winner. Some times you win, most likely you lose though.
And speculation is a game. It is played in every hobby.
Again, all that unexpected reprints would do is change the rules, not kill the game. You might get one or 2 at a reasonable price, but spikes would be much greater.
To entertain a challenge to everyone. No matter what is your stand on the current price situation: Come up with a mechanic to meaningfully reduce the price of modern staples w/o causing any doomsday scenarios.
Why? It only doesnt work for a select few. If attendance was dipping or LGS were closing because of lack of sales I might agree with you, but instead attendance is on the up tick and sales is good for all involved. I would say there is no need to lower prices as long as they are selling, which they are.
Say reprints bring 'goyf down to $70, fetches to $25-$30, Bob and V-Clique down to $40. What do you think is more likely?
1) Players who already have these cards become enraged and quit the format entirely, creating a large scale net decrease in tournament attendance
2) Players who don't have these cards buy them an play in modern events, creating a large scale net increase in tournament attendance
I don't know why people expect their cards to hold value when the whole point of Modern is that the cards don't rotate and everything is reprintable. I bought into many modern cards but never expected them to be some kind of investment. If my Verdant Catacombs is $40 or $10 it still searches out any shock from my deck. I will still play it. I won't decide I hate the game just because my cardboard is less valuable any more. It might be a turnoff for every card to be $0.03 but I don't think it would ever get to that extreme case. Fetches at $10-15? Goyf at $40-50? Cliques at $15-20? These types of prices are not going drive players away from the game.
Just look at Thoughtseize ($70 down to $15) or Kitchen Finks ($10 down to $3). That's just two examples of a huge loss in value for some key staples in Modern just recently. No mass exodus. No mobs with torches. Yeah if you were holding on to 2000 Finks right before they got printed in MM I'm sure it didn't feel too good. Maybe a LGS holding 20x seize lost some money (and they were speculating just like anyone else, which is inherently risky). But they also sold MM packs. If they continue to print MM and similar packs LGS and wizards will continue to make money off of them.
[quote from="Valanarch" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/219448-modern-prices-discussion?comment=2315"]Personally I have no problems with slow reprintings of high dollar cards such as Modern Masters did it. I do have a problem with those who want $.10 cards across the board. With cards not having any value, the game would suffer terribly. I know I would stop playing competitively if the prize support to play the game was worthless product. I would demand cash prizes for cash entry tournaments. It would kill limited. There would be zero reason to draft or play sealed. (by the way, limited players do a great service to the community. Limited players open up tons of product for other players to play the game. Take that a way and the game suffers.)
I mostly agree with this. I just think that it is ridiculous for Goyf, Bob, Vendilion Clique, Bitterblossom, Karn, Liliana, Cryptic, and so many other cards to cost so much. I am fine with more sets like Modern Masters, but they should either print more of it or make cards like Goyf rares instead of mythics.
There are plenty of cards in circulation. There are certain entities that buy up any and every card in an area. I know people that are holding thousands of cards waiting for the price to get to where it is profitable to dump. Think 1000 SFM, or 2500 AV's, 1200 Ooze, 1000 Mutavaults. They buy these cards at market value knowing that once they cycle out of Standard or are unbanned they will sky rocket in price. Just look at BB and kitty. BB went from a $15 card to $80 over night. Yeah its settled down a bit since but those who had bought in made theirs off those who cashed out earlier. Kitty went from a sub dollar card to $2-$3 dollars. Foils are double digits now where they were maybe a dollar while banned.
Why do you think Goyf, Bob and Clique went up in price even after adding more to the supply? Because people are buying them up.
And then from there maybe gradually print more and more so that the buildup of supply isn't so sharp.
Why? It only doesnt work for a select few. If attendance was dipping or LGS were closing because of lack of sales I might agree with you, but instead attendance is on the up tick and sales is good for all involved. I would say there is no need to lower prices as long as they are selling, which they are.
Wizards begins to start singles and set their prices.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I dont think the player base would grow too much from a lowering of prices any way. Wotc would be lucky to keep about the same numbers. You would see a mass exodus if Wotc actively started screwing with the secondary market especially to lower prices.
It is a real delicate balance, fine line kind of thing.
Unless Wotc is going to start refusing business to those who dont sell for their MSRP, I dont see how this would change anything. SO what if Wotc came out and started selling fetches for $10 a pop. Those with the finances would scoop them up and mark them up. It would get to a point where Wotc would be actually losing money by printing a certain card because of market saturation, and eventually stop. Mean while those with the funds are sitting on piles of cheap fetches waiting for the price to go up. Same as now. It really is simple economics.
Modern
ResidentSleeper
Legacy
UWRUWr MiracleRWU
Fair enough. The fetchlands will be reprinted in Standard eventually anyways, so I guess Modern will just have to wait for that.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I have an idea:
Make a magical christmasland event every year.
Every December, a random modern playable card over the 20 dollar mark will be given for free as an FNM promo.
Sure, some speculators will suffer, but for everyone else, certain deck will be easier to acces now.
They can keep doing this indefinitely.
Anyway, they already print one that gets over 30 dollars every block:
Crucible /
Jitte/ Bob / Tarmogoyf / Bitterblossom / Noble Hierarch / JTMS /Karn Liberated / LotV / Voice of Resurgence / ???Speculators can still make lots of profit, but it will be actual speculation instead of the 100% profit 0% risk crap that it is right now.
IK, its a crazy idea that would cause the magicpocalypse, but damn, speculators/retailers drive the market in such an annoying way.
I mean, the idea has some merit, it's just that I don't think stores can handle giving away cardboard like that, not without twisting it into a more demanding event where people have to work for their cardboard Grants 'n Benjamins.
If you could buy fetches for $10 a pop straight from the manufacturer why would anyone be able go scoop them up? How are they going to make any profit when anyone else can go and buy one for $10?
Wizards can sell a Verdant Catacombs to LGS and online stores for $4 with an MSRP of $9.99. Boom. Same business model as everything else at the store (even non-wizards items), local stores make their margins, people can buy whatever at MSRP. LGS runs out? Order more. No shortages, speculation, or gouging. Go buy a used one on ebay for 6-7 bucks if you want but there won't be any kind of inflated prices just because there's 10 cards that every deck runs and they were printed 10 years ago leading to the situation where there's 10x the people who want one than there are copies in existence.
Not saying it has to happen this way or even that this is the best way, but I take issue with people saying "if wizards reprints anything or goes to any other model conceivable it means the end of a game via mass exodus of players".
Wizards has committed to supporting Modern, correct? I have a question then: What, if anything, would be awful about slowly decreasing the prices of high-value modern staples? Can we all agree that this is a reasonable thing to ask for?
A significant factor in Wizards currently conservative reprinting behavior is that they don't have enough control over how much a reprint will lower secondary market prices. To have more control over this, they could have a more adjustable print run. That is, they could be reactionary with their reprinting, so that when card prices approach where they want them to be, or if card prices drop too low too quickly, they can stop reprinting. That, coupled with smaller and more frequently released sets, would allow them to pinpoint which card prices should be lowered, and by how much.
In your example, Wotc would have to police the LGS to make sure they dont charge more then MRSP.
If Wotc is printing fetches and charging $10, there will come a point it will cost more to print the card then its actual value. The market will get saturated and value will dive. Wotc stops printing because its not profitable anymore, different entities start grabbing all the fetches in their area and the supply starts drying up, prices start to rise.
Exactly the same as happens now. Cards are usually at there lowest while in Standard and in print. As soon as the sets stop print, the prices start to rise. Certain entities start buying up all the copies of 'X' card and prices spike.
Availability and cost are 2 different things. Some want to say they are the same, but they are not. If people are going to pay high prices for cards, card prices will continue to be high.
You really think the LGS would pass up that cash cow? Wotc gives 'free' promo cards to give out and you think a LGS is going to just give away double digit cards? LGS will just say they never got them and sit on them and sell on ebay.
And its not the speculators/retailers that drive the prices up, its your fellow players that will pay the high dollar to be competitive. The speculator/retailer are just using the players desire to win to make a little profit. It happens in every hobby.
Anyone remember Magic Rewards?
Damnation, Cryptic Command and other nice stuff like text less Ponder and text less foil Lightning Bolt.
It was a sad day day when they stopped it.
What was that reason?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
How is printing and selling more extremely desirable cards cutting profits? Goyf is $150 and WoTC gets 0% of the money everytime one is sold right now because they won't print more. Making more cards is the OPPOSITE of cutting profits.
Say reprints bring 'goyf down to $70, fetches to $25-$30, Bob and V-Clique down to $40. What do you think is more likely?
1) Players who already have these cards become enraged and quit the format entirely, creating a large scale net decrease in tournament attendance
2) Players who don't have these cards buy them an play in modern events, creating a large scale net increase in tournament attendance
You would have to go search for the exact wording but more or less the cost to mail them to each player was a huge cost.
This doesnt hurt anyone, just changes the game.
Its costly. You are suggesting cutting into profit margins for Wotc even more. Not to mention now Wotc has to hire people to mail these cards to people and listen to all the complaints that people didnt get their cards in time. LGS do a great service for the player base and that is you dont have to wait for your cards.
Those Goyfs came from some where. They started in a Wotc package they got paid for. Being $150 doesnt mean Wotc didnt get theirs some where along the line.
The problem is no one knows. Just because you feel more people would enter the format, doesnt mean thats what would happen. Business's dont work with unknowns. They are very scary areas for any business.
I personally would say its a no gain situation simply from what I have seen in the past. Not just with Magic, but all types of businesses.
Personally I have no problems with slow reprintings of high dollar cards such as Modern Masters did it. I do have a problem with those who want $.10 cards across the board. With cards not having any value, the game would suffer terribly. I know I would stop playing competitively if the prize support to play the game was worthless product. I would demand cash prizes for cash entry tournaments. It would kill limited. There would be zero reason to draft or play sealed. (by the way, limited players do a great service to the community. Limited players open up tons of product for other players to play the game. Take that a way and the game suffers.)
In the end people forget Magic is a business before its a game. Everyone has made a choice to play the game.
I absolutely agree that cards NEED to have value. I just
thinkknow there is some work that needs to be done in regards to maximizing the amount of players in the game, without alientating people who spent their money on staples.This.
One thousand times this.
Mommy Wizards is protecting baby speculator way too much.
Bocephus calls that speculation "a game", but a game that you can't lose isn't a game.
It's just straight up profit.
We all know with certainty that Bob and friends will keep going up at least until the next year.
The fact you say you 'cant lose' speculating, shows me you know very little about speculation. Not every card is a winner. Some times you win, most likely you lose though.
And speculation is a game. It is played in every hobby.
Again, all that unexpected reprints would do is change the rules, not kill the game. You might get one or 2 at a reasonable price, but spikes would be much greater.
I don't know why people expect their cards to hold value when the whole point of Modern is that the cards don't rotate and everything is reprintable. I bought into many modern cards but never expected them to be some kind of investment. If my Verdant Catacombs is $40 or $10 it still searches out any shock from my deck. I will still play it. I won't decide I hate the game just because my cardboard is less valuable any more. It might be a turnoff for every card to be $0.03 but I don't think it would ever get to that extreme case. Fetches at $10-15? Goyf at $40-50? Cliques at $15-20? These types of prices are not going drive players away from the game.
Just look at Thoughtseize ($70 down to $15) or Kitchen Finks ($10 down to $3). That's just two examples of a huge loss in value for some key staples in Modern just recently. No mass exodus. No mobs with torches. Yeah if you were holding on to 2000 Finks right before they got printed in MM I'm sure it didn't feel too good. Maybe a LGS holding 20x seize lost some money (and they were speculating just like anyone else, which is inherently risky). But they also sold MM packs. If they continue to print MM and similar packs LGS and wizards will continue to make money off of them.
I mostly agree with this. I just think that it is ridiculous for Goyf, Bob, Vendilion Clique, Bitterblossom, Karn, Liliana, Cryptic, and so many other cards to cost so much. I am fine with more sets like Modern Masters, but they should either print more of it or make cards like Goyf rares instead of mythics.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.