Well most of those are cards anyone can get because of standard. I mean the checks are as cheap as they ever have been. The shocks I had from standard and I traded for a temple garden I needed to get the 3rd. Like most of them are very available and most people own a lot of shocks and can trade for easily. The only huge price is from the fetches and im still running very few that aren't needed. Before I had them I ran 2 Godless Shrines, 1 Dryad Arbor, and 1 Isolated Chapel.
I like that list a lot. Its super annoying to play against. I ran a deck very similar. Id post the deck but its late and im too tired to post it but it was similar in nature. All I did to fix the mana was main board 4 Blood Moon, play 8 plains, 4 mountain, 4 Sacred Foundry, 4 Clifftop, 4 Arid Mesa and I was set. Also ALWAYS used fetches for basic plains. Most decks cant handle mainboard blood moon and if they do, they need to float mana so if they are tapped out they basically lose. Not to mention with the current mana base I don't understand your mana-screwage.
Also id like to own more fetches obviously, who wouldn't, but when it comes to modern you can still improvise. That's the great part of having such a huge card pool. I am fine with prices right now as they could be a lot worse or affecting all aspects of mana to where checks and shocks are at the 10-20 range.
I would run mainboard Blood Moons, but since I don't own Arid Mesa and because of a large amount of Affinity in my meta I don't feel comfortable doing it. I really don't understand the mana-screwage either. If I was wrong about my comments about fetchless manabases, I retract my previous statements. That was just my actual experience when I tried adding in Tectonic Edge. The Clifftop Retreats kept entering the battlefield tapped and I wasn't able to activate Mystic Gate.
"You are assuming that Wizards didn't predict that the fetchlands would be expensive. That seems somewhat unlikely. You are also ignoring that Wizards wants the Onslaught fetchlands in Modern and thus wants to reprint the 10 fetchlands." - Valanarch
Source? I haven't read anything stating that they want all ten fetches in modern.
It has been implied since the beginning of the format.
As with any format, there are some cards whose conspicuous absence will be felt. In particular, the Onslaught fetch lands feel like a strange omission, when the Zendikar fetch lands combined with the Ravnica dual lands will likely be important to the format's mana bases. I admit that it is strange. However, right before Zendikar released, the format contained only Onslaught fetch lands. I played many Extended tournaments with a green-blue deck that would have loved the option to find a Forest with Misty Rainforest, but I made do with Polluted Deltas, Flooded Strands, and a few Breeding Pools. For now, the lack of allied-color fetch lands would be one of the format's idiosyncrasies. There would be others that we would discover over time, and that's okay too.
I'm curious. You do realize you're missing one of the integral words within that quote, right? "the formats idiosyncrasies." If anything, that quote tells me that the friendly fetches will not ever be printed in modern. For those unable to google a frickin' word's meaning, an idiosyncrasy is :
noun, plural id·i·o·syn·cra·sies.
1.a characteristic, habit, mannerism, or the like, that is peculiar to an individual.
2.the physical constitution peculiar to an individual.
3.a peculiarity of the physical or the mental constitution, especially susceptibility toward drugs, food, etc. Compare allergy.
In the context of that statement, Modern is, in part, defined by the absence of the onslaught fetches.
You are ignoring the key phrase. "For now" definitely means that it is going to end at some point.
Well most of those are cards anyone can get because of standard. I mean the checks are as cheap as they ever have been. The shocks I had from standard and I traded for a temple garden I needed to get the 3rd. Like most of them are very available and most people own a lot of shocks and can trade for easily. The only huge price is from the fetches and im still running very few that aren't needed. Before I had them I ran 2 Godless Shrines, 1 Dryad Arbor, and 1 Isolated Chapel.
I like that list a lot. Its super annoying to play against. I ran a deck very similar. Id post the deck but its late and im too tired to post it but it was similar in nature. All I did to fix the mana was main board 4 Blood Moon, play 8 plains, 4 mountain, 4 Sacred Foundry, 4 Clifftop, 4 Arid Mesa and I was set. Also ALWAYS used fetches for basic plains. Most decks cant handle mainboard blood moon and if they do, they need to float mana so if they are tapped out they basically lose. Not to mention with the current mana base I don't understand your mana-screwage.
Also id like to own more fetches obviously, who wouldn't, but when it comes to modern you can still improvise. That's the great part of having such a huge card pool. I am fine with prices right now as they could be a lot worse or affecting all aspects of mana to where checks and shocks are at the 10-20 range.
I would run mainboard Blood Moons, but since I don't own Arid Mesa and because of a large amount of Affinity in my meta I don't feel comfortable doing it. I really don't understand the mana-screwage either. If I was wrong about my comments about fetchless manabases, I retract my previous statements. That was just my actual experience when I tried adding in Tectonic Edge. The Clifftop Retreats kept entering the battlefield tapped and I wasn't able to activate Mystic Gate.
I mean, fetches make any deck a lot more consistent but I see no need in buying any, nor supporting a reprint so everyone can have 50 copies. They are good, helllllla good, but not needed. Not to mention fewer fetches mean less injury to blood moon decks, hatebear decks, aggro decks, and promotes variability in mana. I know it wont happen on a competitive level but for newer modern players it seems just fine. I don't plan on getting any more fetches, I have money and plenty of trade, I just don't see it being necessary at the moment.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
Well most of those are cards anyone can get because of standard. I mean the checks are as cheap as they ever have been. The shocks I had from standard and I traded for a temple garden I needed to get the 3rd. Like most of them are very available and most people own a lot of shocks and can trade for easily. The only huge price is from the fetches and im still running very few that aren't needed. Before I had them I ran 2 Godless Shrines, 1 Dryad Arbor, and 1 Isolated Chapel.
I like that list a lot. Its super annoying to play against. I ran a deck very similar. Id post the deck but its late and im too tired to post it but it was similar in nature. All I did to fix the mana was main board 4 Blood Moon, play 8 plains, 4 mountain, 4 Sacred Foundry, 4 Clifftop, 4 Arid Mesa and I was set. Also ALWAYS used fetches for basic plains. Most decks cant handle mainboard blood moon and if they do, they need to float mana so if they are tapped out they basically lose. Not to mention with the current mana base I don't understand your mana-screwage.
Also id like to own more fetches obviously, who wouldn't, but when it comes to modern you can still improvise. That's the great part of having such a huge card pool. I am fine with prices right now as they could be a lot worse or affecting all aspects of mana to where checks and shocks are at the 10-20 range.
I would run mainboard Blood Moons, but since I don't own Arid Mesa and because of a large amount of Affinity in my meta I don't feel comfortable doing it. I really don't understand the mana-screwage either. If I was wrong about my comments about fetchless manabases, I retract my previous statements. That was just my actual experience when I tried adding in Tectonic Edge. The Clifftop Retreats kept entering the battlefield tapped and I wasn't able to activate Mystic Gate.
I mean, fetches make any deck a lot more consistent but I see no need in buying any, nor supporting a reprint so everyone can have 50 copies. They are good, helllllla good, but not needed. Not to mention fewer fetches mean less injury to blood moon decks, hatebear decks, aggro decks, and promotes variability in mana. I know it wont happen on a competitive level but for newer modern players it seems just fine. I don't plan on getting any more fetches, I have money and plenty of trade, I just don't see it being necessary at the moment.
Actually, more fetchlands would make Hatebears (It plays Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor), Death and Taxes (see Hatebears), and Cruel Control (It is trying to cast Cruel Ultimatum. It needs all of the help that it can get.) much more viable. It would help promote diversity in the format while mainly weakening Pod and Blood Moon decks (including sometimes Twin and Affinity). It would be nice to see the meta change a little while making the format cheaper.
Which is what I don't wanna see. It would be boring to all the people playing modern for the last year or even few months. Id rather see people's budget/brew decks. Ive seen some silly polymorph decks for example that are cheap aside from emrakuls/progenitus. But seeing something like 3 Pod decks, 1 UWR deck, 4 Tarmo Twin decks would be suuuuuper boring in a top 8.
I know if I didn't have a budget, Tarmo Twin is where id be in a heart beat.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
Which is what I don't wanna see. It would be boring to all the people playing modern for the last year or even few months. Id rather see people's budget/brew decks. Ive seen some silly polymorph decks for example that are cheap aside from emrakuls/progenitus. But seeing something like 3 Pod decks, 1 UWR deck, 4 Tarmo Twin decks would be suuuuuper boring in a top 8.
I know if I didn't have a budget, Tarmo Twin is where id be in a heart beat.
You mean like the last GP?
Anyways, the problem with the brewing is that even brews are better if you add fetchlands. Fetchland reprints would help those decks too. I considered making a Polymorph tokens deck, but I wanted to run Bitterblossom in there and I didn't have the money for it and the fetchlands to make an Esper deck with prefect mana. So I just decided to make a 2-color deck. I probably would have bought that brew if it wasn't for the cost of the fetchlands (and Bitterblossom).
We actually need new, individual strong cards that define an archetype without being used in other decks - and all the archetypes need to be balanced. That's a difficult task ahead. I mean even within pod, there is Melira Pod and Kiki Pod, but Pod is a common factor. Similarly Gyfs bind a lot of decks like Jund and TarmoTwin together. When a card is too flexible and can be used in too many decks, the demand for it drives way up.
And there are too many cards that are like that now. Simply reprinting one will drive the price of another way up. And they can't (and won't) reprint everything en masse because they see it as the same mistake that ended up in the Reserved List for Legacy.
Which is what I don't wanna see. It would be boring to all the people playing modern for the last year or even few months. Id rather see people's budget/brew decks. Ive seen some silly polymorph decks for example that are cheap aside from emrakuls/progenitus. But seeing something like 3 Pod decks, 1 UWR deck, 4 Tarmo Twin decks would be suuuuuper boring in a top 8.
I know if I didn't have a budget, Tarmo Twin is where id be in a heart beat.
What? So a meta should be based on how impossible some cards are to buy for a lot of people? Seems really strange to me. I always though a meta should be based on what people play, not on what cards cost. (read with a sarcastic tone )
Besides that, it's an assumption that you would suddenly see that kind of top8s just because expensive cards are more accessible. I think most people on here just want fetches to come down. The insane prizes of staples like Tarmo are less of an issue because there are many rogue deck options. Even more so: If fetch prizes would come down, it would be easier for people to built viable tricolor rogue decks. So it would probably make the meta even more diverse. Exactly what you want.
i hate splintertwin as a card when used to auto win when playing it... makes the game dumb "show you twin, go to game 2". not fun.
That's basically every combo deck in modern.
I think his point is that SplinterTwin deck can win from nowhere. While other combos can do it also, Twin has the best surprise factor.
That plus it's so consistent it's just not funny. You can kill one perstermite/exarch but eventually he'll drop the combo again while holding you off with counterspells and removal. It's also a combo that can fit in different decks. Mostly with kiki of course. I even saw an RW lockdown built with a kiki combo, just because well, it's just that good of a combo. I think the combo very boring to play and play against and will therefore never put it in my own RW lockdown built.
Is it too powerful for Modern? That remains to be seen, but I'm afraid we will see kiki more and more in decklists just as an additional insta win. I don't think the combo is good for Modern, but it's here and gotta deal with it as long as it is. I wouldn't shed one tear if they'd ban Kiki though. Twin would still be a very strong deck without kiki and we already have Melira POD. But the ban would make sure not every deck that can will play the combo.
Hmm getting off-topic here though. This is not the place for this discussion.
I understand if you disagree with me, but I used specific reasonings for why I think the way I do.
First, I make a good $20k above the national average.
Second, I cannot responsibly keep up with the spending habits of the average Magic consumer, as shown by the numbers of people at tournaments compared to the decklists at those tournaments.
This leads us to a couple of conclusions.
First, it is possible that the average Magic consumer earns well above what I do, and therefore a large amount more than the national average. I'm inclined to think that this is not true, knowing the general demographic of the Magic consumer.
Second, that the average Magic consumer is not budgeting for the future wisely.
There is the chance that I've missed another possibility, and if so, I am interested in knowing it so that I can make sure I have a clear picture of the situation - What is important to me is that I know what is true and accurate, not that I prove a prior assumption as true and accurate. But, with the evidence that I have seen as of yet, the most likely situation is that the average Magic consumer is spending irresponsibly. Maybe you earn more than I do, and that is why you can justify to yourself spending more. If that is true, then I doubt that the average Magic consumer earns equal to or more than you do, let alone what I do. I would disagree that it would justify the average Magic consumer to spend more.
I agree on what you would refer to as disposable income. I do think, however, that many Magic consumers would disagree with what you and I define as disposable income. As for me having to choose between retirement saving and Magic cards, I budget very carefully. I don't have to choose, because I build very carefully, and I build budget. I would love to build with Bob's, fetches, etc., but I don't have to, because I don't play in tournaments. I used to, until I observed the bubble and I opted out. That brings us back to understanding the mindset of a player who is comfortable relying on their "disposable income" for the majority of their wins, and what that means about that sort of person.
This thread is picking up pace, so a few reminders:
1. Don't attack users. Criticize ideas.
2. Keep it on prices, not bans/power level/etc.
3. If this becomes an income or career pissing contest, spam warnings/infractions are going out.
There's a good chance this thread is going to get remade with some actual rules in the OP (like in the ban thread), but until that happens, stay on topic and follow the forum rules.
That brings us back to understanding the mindset of a player who is comfortable relying on their "disposable income" for the majority of their wins, and what that means about that sort of person.
Now THIS is the core problem. People have this notion that paying for the most expensive cards translates into wins. It does not. I wouldnt even go as far as saying that having the most popular cards even gives you any kind of statistically quantifiable edge. Would you argue that a Twin deck with Scalding Tarn has a statistically better chance of winning than an identical deck that uses Shivan Reef (or whatever else) instead of the fetch? I wouldn't. I have been playing this game way to long to put faith in nonsense like that. If you want to win you have to analyze your meta, tune your archetype, play without making mistakes AND get some good luck. Do you really think the differences between Fetch lands and Pain lands can really overcome those keys to victory?
If the fetch lands are too expensive for you then DONT BUY THEM! Use an alternative. Just please stop making it sound like you can't play the game competitively without the most expensive cards. That has NEVER been true in MTG.
Totally agree. If it weren't capped GP Richmond could have easily pushed past 5000. Same with GP Las Vegas. And that's more to say than any standard or legacy event. That shows modern's demand and health are both very high.
While I agree with this, I believe that the demand is even higher than what the format can attract at the current prices. If Modern was a bit cheaper (or a bit more lenient on the banned list, or experienced a few key reprints), it would easily be the most popular format.
Here is the argument in a nut shell. Wotc can not have Modern be the number one format. Standard has to be in that place. Standard sells packs.
Anyone who thinks Modern will be the #1 format is not seeing the big picture.
Also, if you can not run 2 colors without fetches, you are doing it wrong. Sounds like you are either keeping bad opening hands or you dont know how to build a mana base.
@thnkr- I am going to say you are not a competitive player. You are a Friday night guy, local type player. There is nothing wrong with that, but there are those that are competitive and do spend the cash to play at those high levels. As a local FNM type player, your priorities are different then others.
and then lgs would die off because there isnt a market for the cards they sell and depend on to support themselves...everyone is left with t1 tarmo-twin decks that they got for a grand total of $100 dollars, but they only play around kitchen tables and through forum meetups.
sounds like crap, and no one is blowing pension money, give it a break.
That brings us back to understanding the mindset of a player who is comfortable relying on their "disposable income" for the majority of their wins, and what that means about that sort of person.
Now THIS is the core problem. People have this notion that paying for the most expensive cards translates into wins. It does not. I wouldnt even go as far as saying that having the most popular cards even gives you any kind of statistically quantifiable edge. Would you argue that a Twin deck with Scalding Tarn has a statistically better chance of winning than an identical deck that uses Shivan Reef (or whatever else) instead of the fetch? I wouldn't. I have been playing this game way to long to put faith in nonsense like that. If you want to win you have to analyze your meta, tune your archetype, play without making mistakes AND get some good luck. Do you really think the differences between Fetch lands and Pain lands can really overcome those keys to victory?
If the fetch lands are too expensive for you then DONT BUY THEM! Use an alternative. Just please stop making it sound like you can't play the game competitively without the most expensive cards. That has NEVER been true in MTG.
This is just aggressively wrong.
Of course using Scalding Tarn gives you a statistically better chance of winning than an identical deck using Shivan Reef. Why? Because of damage. If you're inclined, Tarn can fetch you a basic mountain, which costs you one life. If you're feeling frisky, three life for an untapped Steam Vents. Your typical UR Twin deck runs four bolts, four Splinter Twins, and a single Kiki-Jiki (sometimes two). That's a lot of red. Since you have Snapcaster and Cryptic, you need your blue too. Statistically, you are more likely to take more damage over the course of a game from Shivan Reef because you always need your colored mana. If it's turn 5 and you have only one Shivan Reef, there's a good chance you've done the old bolt/Snapcaster/bolt play (which costs you two life). Casting a Splinter Twin when the second red finally comes will cost you another life. Five turns is a very long time in Modern, and by that point you may not be able to afford the life when a Tarn could have saved you the extra two by getting a basic mountain. It doesn't hurt that you're a Serum Visions deck, and can reshuffle your library with Tarn when need be.
Damage is big in Modern because the aggressive decks know their opponent will never start out at just 20 life. I've been playing this game way too long to ignore the tiny advantages that add up over the course of a game. I doubt any serious player believes playing a fetchland over a painland is the difference when it comes to keys to victory; rather, they understand that part of what makes an efficient deck is avoiding sub-optimal cards and/or the chance of being punished for playing an inferior card in the context of your list. This is why Storm CAN afford to play Shivan Reef: because it splashes red and has cards like Manamorphose.
I love to brew. But I also understand that expensive cards cost what they do because there is no substitute. If you're running green and want to be tempo, it's Tarmogoyf or go home. If you're running black and need card advantage in a midrange/or low curve shell, it's Dark Confidant or go home. If you're running am ambitious manabase, and every color counts, it's fetchlands or go home. Etc...
I tend to be more cynical when it comes to Modern prices; Modern, like Legacy, will experience periods of financial stagnation, but the numbers will continue to increase over time. Wizards can stabilize them with stuff like event decks, and booster boxes, but they aren't becoming affordable anytime soon.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
Totally agree. If it weren't capped GP Richmond could have easily pushed past 5000. Same with GP Las Vegas. And that's more to say than any standard or legacy event. That shows modern's demand and health are both very high.
While I agree with this, I believe that the demand is even higher than what the format can attract at the current prices. If Modern was a bit cheaper (or a bit more lenient on the banned list, or experienced a few key reprints), it would easily be the most popular format.
Here is the argument in a nut shell. Wotc can not have Modern be the number one format. Standard has to be in that place. Standard sells packs.
Anyone who thinks Modern will be the #1 format is not seeing the big picture.
While this is true, it is going to happen even if Wizards doesn't make Modern cheaper. Starcity Games will eventually endorse Modern. Wizards will unban some cards. New cards will see play in Modern. Any of these things would be able to make Modern the No. 1 format. So Wizards might as well make some money from reprints.
Also, if you can not run 2 colors without fetches, you are doing it wrong. Sounds like you are either keeping bad opening hands or you dont know how to build a mana base.
I can make a 2-colored manabase without fetchlands. It just becomes a problem when I add Tectonic Edge. It being an enemy pair doesn't help either since I don't get Future Sight lands or Scars lands.
Wizards will not let modern become the no 1 format. It's intimidating to brand new players and does not sell them packs or push new product like standard.
Wizards will not let modern become the no 1 format. It's intimidating to brand new players and does not sell them packs or push new product like standard.
At this rate, they really can't stop it. When Starcity Games endorses Modern it will get a huge popularity boost. If any new cards are heavily playable it will get a huge popularity boost. If the banned list changes it will get a huge popularity boost. The only thing that Wizards could do to stop it would be to stop supporting the format or to deliberately ruin the meta.
Wizards will not let modern become the no 1 format. It's intimidating to brand new players and does not sell them packs or push new product like standard.
At this rate, they really can't stop it. When Starcity Games endorses Modern it will get a huge popularity boost. If any new cards are heavily playable it will get a huge popularity boost. If the banned list changes it will get a huge popularity boost. The only thing that Wizards could do to stop it would be to stop supporting the format or to deliberately ruin the meta.
Modern will not be the #1 format for Wotc ..ever. Standard has to be in that spot. If Modern gets any where near the #1 spot expect Wotc to do what it takes to keep Modern no better then the #2 format.
Its all about business and profit margins. Modern can in no way bring in the profit margins Standard can and has.
Wizards will not let modern become the no 1 format. It's intimidating to brand new players and does not sell them packs or push new product like standard.
At this rate, they really can't stop it. When Starcity Games endorses Modern it will get a huge popularity boost. If any new cards are heavily playable it will get a huge popularity boost. If the banned list changes it will get a huge popularity boost. The only thing that Wizards could do to stop it would be to stop supporting the format or to deliberately ruin the meta.
Modern will not be the #1 format for Wotc ..ever. Standard has to be in that spot. If Modern gets any where near the #1 spot expect Wotc to do what it takes to keep Modern no better then the #2 format.
Its all about business and profit margins. Modern can in no way bring in the profit margins Standard can and has.
As I said, the only thing that Wizards would be able to do is deliberately ruin the format through intentionally bad choices (think unban Skullclamp) or to stop supporting Modern as an FNM format. However, the backlash would be huge on either of those.
I would run mainboard Blood Moons, but since I don't own Arid Mesa and because of a large amount of Affinity in my meta I don't feel comfortable doing it. I really don't understand the mana-screwage either. If I was wrong about my comments about fetchless manabases, I retract my previous statements. That was just my actual experience when I tried adding in Tectonic Edge. The Clifftop Retreats kept entering the battlefield tapped and I wasn't able to activate Mystic Gate.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You are ignoring the key phrase. "For now" definitely means that it is going to end at some point.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I mean, fetches make any deck a lot more consistent but I see no need in buying any, nor supporting a reprint so everyone can have 50 copies. They are good, helllllla good, but not needed. Not to mention fewer fetches mean less injury to blood moon decks, hatebear decks, aggro decks, and promotes variability in mana. I know it wont happen on a competitive level but for newer modern players it seems just fine. I don't plan on getting any more fetches, I have money and plenty of trade, I just don't see it being necessary at the moment.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Actually, more fetchlands would make Hatebears (It plays Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor), Death and Taxes (see Hatebears), and Cruel Control (It is trying to cast Cruel Ultimatum. It needs all of the help that it can get.) much more viable. It would help promote diversity in the format while mainly weakening Pod and Blood Moon decks (including sometimes Twin and Affinity). It would be nice to see the meta change a little while making the format cheaper.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
I bet that we'd see a lot of Tarmo-Twin (it is running all of the most expensive cards in the format except for Bob, Karn, Damnation, and Liliana).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I know if I didn't have a budget, Tarmo Twin is where id be in a heart beat.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
You mean like the last GP?
Anyways, the problem with the brewing is that even brews are better if you add fetchlands. Fetchland reprints would help those decks too. I considered making a Polymorph tokens deck, but I wanted to run Bitterblossom in there and I didn't have the money for it and the fetchlands to make an Esper deck with prefect mana. So I just decided to make a 2-color deck. I probably would have bought that brew if it wasn't for the cost of the fetchlands (and Bitterblossom).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
And there are too many cards that are like that now. Simply reprinting one will drive the price of another way up. And they can't (and won't) reprint everything en masse because they see it as the same mistake that ended up in the Reserved List for Legacy.
My multiplayer powered cube
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9936757#post9936757
my EDH deckbox:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=6849857#post6849857
elesh norn statue:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=413011
tamiyo figure/bust:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=444503
my etsy dark souls statues page:
www.etsy.com/shop/originalstatues
That's basically every combo deck in modern.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
I think his point is that SplinterTwin deck can win from nowhere. While other combos can do it also, Twin has the best surprise factor.
- H. L. Mencken
French Duel Commander
WBR Kaalia of the Vast WBR
RUG Maelstrom Wanderer RUG
What? So a meta should be based on how impossible some cards are to buy for a lot of people? Seems really strange to me. I always though a meta should be based on what people play, not on what cards cost. (read with a sarcastic tone )
Besides that, it's an assumption that you would suddenly see that kind of top8s just because expensive cards are more accessible. I think most people on here just want fetches to come down. The insane prizes of staples like Tarmo are less of an issue because there are many rogue deck options. Even more so: If fetch prizes would come down, it would be easier for people to built viable tricolor rogue decks. So it would probably make the meta even more diverse. Exactly what you want.
That plus it's so consistent it's just not funny. You can kill one perstermite/exarch but eventually he'll drop the combo again while holding you off with counterspells and removal. It's also a combo that can fit in different decks. Mostly with kiki of course. I even saw an RW lockdown built with a kiki combo, just because well, it's just that good of a combo. I think the combo very boring to play and play against and will therefore never put it in my own RW lockdown built.
Is it too powerful for Modern? That remains to be seen, but I'm afraid we will see kiki more and more in decklists just as an additional insta win. I don't think the combo is good for Modern, but it's here and gotta deal with it as long as it is. I wouldn't shed one tear if they'd ban Kiki though. Twin would still be a very strong deck without kiki and we already have Melira POD. But the ban would make sure not every deck that can will play the combo.
Hmm getting off-topic here though. This is not the place for this discussion.
I understand if you disagree with me, but I used specific reasonings for why I think the way I do.
First, I make a good $20k above the national average.
Second, I cannot responsibly keep up with the spending habits of the average Magic consumer, as shown by the numbers of people at tournaments compared to the decklists at those tournaments.
This leads us to a couple of conclusions.
First, it is possible that the average Magic consumer earns well above what I do, and therefore a large amount more than the national average. I'm inclined to think that this is not true, knowing the general demographic of the Magic consumer.
Second, that the average Magic consumer is not budgeting for the future wisely.
There is the chance that I've missed another possibility, and if so, I am interested in knowing it so that I can make sure I have a clear picture of the situation - What is important to me is that I know what is true and accurate, not that I prove a prior assumption as true and accurate. But, with the evidence that I have seen as of yet, the most likely situation is that the average Magic consumer is spending irresponsibly. Maybe you earn more than I do, and that is why you can justify to yourself spending more. If that is true, then I doubt that the average Magic consumer earns equal to or more than you do, let alone what I do. I would disagree that it would justify the average Magic consumer to spend more.
I agree on what you would refer to as disposable income. I do think, however, that many Magic consumers would disagree with what you and I define as disposable income. As for me having to choose between retirement saving and Magic cards, I budget very carefully. I don't have to choose, because I build very carefully, and I build budget. I would love to build with Bob's, fetches, etc., but I don't have to, because I don't play in tournaments. I used to, until I observed the bubble and I opted out. That brings us back to understanding the mindset of a player who is comfortable relying on their "disposable income" for the majority of their wins, and what that means about that sort of person.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
1. Don't attack users. Criticize ideas.
2. Keep it on prices, not bans/power level/etc.
3. If this becomes an income or career pissing contest, spam warnings/infractions are going out.
There's a good chance this thread is going to get remade with some actual rules in the OP (like in the ban thread), but until that happens, stay on topic and follow the forum rules.
Carry on!
Now THIS is the core problem. People have this notion that paying for the most expensive cards translates into wins. It does not. I wouldnt even go as far as saying that having the most popular cards even gives you any kind of statistically quantifiable edge. Would you argue that a Twin deck with Scalding Tarn has a statistically better chance of winning than an identical deck that uses Shivan Reef (or whatever else) instead of the fetch? I wouldn't. I have been playing this game way to long to put faith in nonsense like that. If you want to win you have to analyze your meta, tune your archetype, play without making mistakes AND get some good luck. Do you really think the differences between Fetch lands and Pain lands can really overcome those keys to victory?
If the fetch lands are too expensive for you then DONT BUY THEM! Use an alternative. Just please stop making it sound like you can't play the game competitively without the most expensive cards. That has NEVER been true in MTG.
Here is the argument in a nut shell. Wotc can not have Modern be the number one format. Standard has to be in that place. Standard sells packs.
Anyone who thinks Modern will be the #1 format is not seeing the big picture.
Also, if you can not run 2 colors without fetches, you are doing it wrong. Sounds like you are either keeping bad opening hands or you dont know how to build a mana base.
@thnkr- I am going to say you are not a competitive player. You are a Friday night guy, local type player. There is nothing wrong with that, but there are those that are competitive and do spend the cash to play at those high levels. As a local FNM type player, your priorities are different then others.
sounds like crap, and no one is blowing pension money, give it a break.
This is just aggressively wrong.
Of course using Scalding Tarn gives you a statistically better chance of winning than an identical deck using Shivan Reef. Why? Because of damage. If you're inclined, Tarn can fetch you a basic mountain, which costs you one life. If you're feeling frisky, three life for an untapped Steam Vents. Your typical UR Twin deck runs four bolts, four Splinter Twins, and a single Kiki-Jiki (sometimes two). That's a lot of red. Since you have Snapcaster and Cryptic, you need your blue too. Statistically, you are more likely to take more damage over the course of a game from Shivan Reef because you always need your colored mana. If it's turn 5 and you have only one Shivan Reef, there's a good chance you've done the old bolt/Snapcaster/bolt play (which costs you two life). Casting a Splinter Twin when the second red finally comes will cost you another life. Five turns is a very long time in Modern, and by that point you may not be able to afford the life when a Tarn could have saved you the extra two by getting a basic mountain. It doesn't hurt that you're a Serum Visions deck, and can reshuffle your library with Tarn when need be.
Damage is big in Modern because the aggressive decks know their opponent will never start out at just 20 life. I've been playing this game way too long to ignore the tiny advantages that add up over the course of a game. I doubt any serious player believes playing a fetchland over a painland is the difference when it comes to keys to victory; rather, they understand that part of what makes an efficient deck is avoiding sub-optimal cards and/or the chance of being punished for playing an inferior card in the context of your list. This is why Storm CAN afford to play Shivan Reef: because it splashes red and has cards like Manamorphose.
I love to brew. But I also understand that expensive cards cost what they do because there is no substitute. If you're running green and want to be tempo, it's Tarmogoyf or go home. If you're running black and need card advantage in a midrange/or low curve shell, it's Dark Confidant or go home. If you're running am ambitious manabase, and every color counts, it's fetchlands or go home. Etc...
I tend to be more cynical when it comes to Modern prices; Modern, like Legacy, will experience periods of financial stagnation, but the numbers will continue to increase over time. Wizards can stabilize them with stuff like event decks, and booster boxes, but they aren't becoming affordable anytime soon.
Modern
Dredge, Evo-Chord, U/G Faeries, Living End, Something New
While this is true, it is going to happen even if Wizards doesn't make Modern cheaper. Starcity Games will eventually endorse Modern. Wizards will unban some cards. New cards will see play in Modern. Any of these things would be able to make Modern the No. 1 format. So Wizards might as well make some money from reprints.
I can make a 2-colored manabase without fetchlands. It just becomes a problem when I add Tectonic Edge. It being an enemy pair doesn't help either since I don't get Future Sight lands or Scars lands.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
At this rate, they really can't stop it. When Starcity Games endorses Modern it will get a huge popularity boost. If any new cards are heavily playable it will get a huge popularity boost. If the banned list changes it will get a huge popularity boost. The only thing that Wizards could do to stop it would be to stop supporting the format or to deliberately ruin the meta.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Modern will not be the #1 format for Wotc ..ever. Standard has to be in that spot. If Modern gets any where near the #1 spot expect Wotc to do what it takes to keep Modern no better then the #2 format.
Its all about business and profit margins. Modern can in no way bring in the profit margins Standard can and has.
As I said, the only thing that Wizards would be able to do is deliberately ruin the format through intentionally bad choices (think unban Skullclamp) or to stop supporting Modern as an FNM format. However, the backlash would be huge on either of those.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.