Nobody is going to bite on Hearthstones popularity affecting our prices?
I have heard mixed reviews on the game. I have not played personally but know about 8-12 that have or do. Quite a few got beta invite. Some say its a great game, others say its Fischer Price Magic for beginners, and I have heard anything in between. I think MTGO on Steam and Xbox is more a draw then Hearthstone at the moment.
Quote from ktkenshinx »
Honestly, I don't think most people are complaining about $50 cards. People are complaining about a format that was supposed to solve the accessibility issues of Legacy, but where some of the main cards now cost just as much as their Legacy counterparts. Many would argue that the format is not fulfilling its mission if Modern decks are as expensive as comparable tier 1 Legacy decks. And even if some of the prices aren't quite there yet, that is the direction they are trending towards; after a few more big Modern events, they are definitely going to get there.
Of course, all of this is complicated because most of the expensive Modern staples are also widely played in Legacy, so the dual format demand keeps prices high. But theoretically, that was a problem Wizards should be able to solve in this new format, and so far it hasn't been solved yet.
You are confusing affordable, and accessible. What you want is a more affordable game. Because the cards are accessible. Look on TCG, SCG, or Ebay and you can find what you wish. That is the definition of accessible. People just dont have the money to pay the price, which is an affordable issue.
We dont even know if Wotc sees it as a problem. They may be using the prices to control growth now.
The only way I see Wotc has to 'fix' this issue, is another full blow Chronicles 2.0 and flood the market. Could or would that lead to another RL? The whole reason Legacy is dying? I dont think Wotc wants to make the same mistake twice. If anything we will see a slow trickle of reprints.
Quote from spidernova »
With prices as high as they are, its very tempting to just cash out. I enjoy magic, but 800 dollars buys a lot of rent or food.
i have to admit, I have been thinking of this too. I have an obscene amount of money tied up in this game. Every time I see a group of cards surge upwards, the temptation is greater.
Should I sell my restoration angel's and raging ravine now or will their price go up? I'm not really aware of their place in modern.
Not sure about Ravine but keep Restoration Angel!!!!! It is used in Kiki Pod and if recent trends say anything, I would expect it to keep going up until we see a reprint (whenever that may be).
Honestly, I don't think most people are complaining about $50 cards. People are complaining about a format that was supposed to solve the accessibility issues of Legacy, but where some of the main cards now cost just as much as their Legacy counterparts. Many would argue that the format is not fulfilling its mission if Modern decks are as expensive as comparable tier 1 Legacy decks.
but then, wizards never said modern should be a low-price-format. They never said anything about prices.
They said they wanted a nonrotating format without reserved list issues, so they would be able to reprint cards if needed to grow the format.
a lot of players thought that would mean they would reprint everything that sees play so prices would be low, but thats just a misinterpretation of what wizards said.
so, if many argue about modern not fulfilling its mission, its just because they ignored the purpose or mission of modern from the beginning,
and just replaced it in their dreams with their hopes and wishes of cheap cards.
Well, to be clear, here is the exact quote from the "A Modern Proposal" article that was published at the introduction of the format:
However, as Legacy becomes more and more popular, the relative supply of these cards as compared to the size of the audience that wants to play with them is only going down. This makes the format less and less accessible to new entrants over time.
So it's a supply issue, but only in relation to the "size of the audience" of prospective Legacy players. Although price is not explicitly mentioned there, it's pretty obvious that price is an implicit inclusion. Can we think of a Magic-related example where a low-supply card or product also has a low price tag? Can we think of one where low supply ("supply of these cards...going down") relative to high demand ("size of the audience") is an issue for any reason other than price? I'm sure there are some really absurd cornercase examples, but can we think of a reasonable one that Wizards might be suggesting in this quote? To me, it's pretty clear that they mean price.
Also, before some wikipedia logician bombards me with fallacy arguments, I'm not saying that this necessarily follows from the Wizards quote. I'm saying that, by all reasonable interpretations, it's probably what they meant when they wrote it. Also, remember that price doesn't need to be the ONLY issue at stake here. Card supply and card price can actually coexist as issues, despite what a lot of people in this thread have argued in the past.
IMO wrong time to be investing into the format. Prices are on the up tick and its going to cost much more now then it would have the end of last year. People need to start thinking ahead if they want to get into the deck they want at a reasonable price.
That is one of the huge problems of Modern and Magic in general. People see this as an investment. Buy now at x price, sell later at y price, and profit. The thing is, Magic is first and foremost a card game. Most people buy Magic cards to play the game, not to invest in them.
IMO wrong time to be investing into the format. Prices are on the up tick and its going to cost much more now then it would have the end of last year. People need to start thinking ahead if they want to get into the deck they want at a reasonable price.
That is one of the huge problems of Modern and Magic in general. People see this as an investment. Buy now at x price, sell later at y price, and profit. The thing is, Magic is first and foremost a card game. Most people buy Magic cards to play the game, not to invest in them.
Ok, invest is the wrong word. Prices work in cycles for all formats from out of season to coming up on season. We had a couple big events and people see what is working so a certain group of cards has gotten more demand. The closer we get to season, the higher those cards will go. This is a basic working of every format in Magic. I can tell you what cards are going to spike in Standard at rotation, what cards will drop at rotation, and what card will stay close to even and start to climb because they are used in other formats.
Waiting until we are upon a season to decide what you are going to play, is going to cost you more to play 'X' deck. This is true in Standard, Modern, Legacy, and any competitive TCG.
You are trying to argue something that has been going on for 15 years at least in every format, in every TCG.
Quote from ktkenshinx »
To me, it's pretty clear that they mean price.
Because they mention the RL, I see it as not price, but being able to get your hands on cards.
Affordability is part of accessibility, if there were an infinite number of Goyfs avaiable but they cost $1000,000 each then anyone who wanted one could potentially buy one as there are enough for all; however no one would buy them as they would be priced out of the market- thus they are not accessible.
Affordability plus availability = accessibility. I'm not saying all cards should be $2, some are much better than others and that is reflected in their price but the prices are getting higher and higher and availability isn't always increasing due to buyouts, hoarding, people getting and keeping their cards because there's no rotation and so on.
That is one of the huge problems of Modern and Magic in general. People see this as an investment. Buy now at x price, sell later at y price, and profit. The thing is, Magic is first and foremost a card game. Most people buy Magic cards to play the game, not to invest in them.
Ok, invest is the wrong word. Prices work in cycles for all formats from out of season to coming up on season. We had a couple big events and people see what is working so a certain group of cards has gotten more demand. The closer we get to season, the higher those cards will go. This is a basic working of every format in Magic. I can tell you what cards are going to spike in Standard at rotation, what cards will drop at rotation, and what card will stay close to even and start to climb because they are used in other formats.
Waiting until we are upon a season to decide what you are going to play, is going to cost you more to play 'X' deck. This is true in Standard, Modern, Legacy, and any competitive TCG.
You are trying to argue something that has been going on for 15 years at least in every format, in every TCG.
Quote from ktkenshinx »
To me, it's pretty clear that they mean price.
Because they mention the RL, I see it as not price, but being able to get your hands on cards.
Except the rate at which prices are spiking are a heck of a lot higher than at any time period previously. And barring a reprint, I highly doubt the prices of Modern staples such as Tarmogoyf will go down just because the Modern season is over.
Affordability is part of accessibility, if there were an infinite number of Goyfs avaiable but they cost $1000,000 each then anyone who wanted one could potentially buy one as there are enough for all; however no one would buy them as they would be priced out of the market- thus they are not accessible.
Affordability plus availability = accessibility. I'm not saying all cards should be $2, some are much better than others and that is reflected in their price but the prices are getting higher and higher and availability isn't always increasing due to buyouts, hoarding, people getting and keeping their cards because there's no rotation and so on.
Affordable = being able to get the cards with in your price range
Accessible = just being able to get the cards.
It is true if a card is out of someones price range, to that person that card is inaccessible. But when LGS are selling cards at those prices to people, those cards are not inaccessible over all, just to those who can not afford them. The cards in the format are accessible, go to TCG,SCG, and Ebay and you can find everything you need. Now if you have the budget, thats a different story.
Quote from Celestial_Crusader »
Except the rate at which prices are spiking are a heck of a lot higher than at any time period previously. And barring a reprint, I highly doubt the prices of Modern staples such as Tarmogoyf will go down just because the Modern season is over.
1) Your desirable price drop and my desirable price drop are going ot be 2 different price points. There are millions of players, I am sure Goyf will drop to some players price range. Especially since Goyfs are selling now at the current price.
2) When you add how many player into a market, the prices are bound to go up. The same thing happened when Legacy took off. .50 uncommons became $20 or more literally over night.
I will admit it looks like Wotc was caught unaware of how popular the format was, especially with the numbers prior to the last B&R announcement. Personally I think Wotc felt they would shake up the format a little and hope to show some growth and they got much more then they felt they were going to get.
Its going to take time, probably years, to catch up on the printing and R&D side. But just like we will never see another .50 FOW, You are not going ot see another sub $100 Goyf.
Its going to take time, probably years, to catch up on the printing and R&D side. But just like we will never see another .50 FOW, You are not going ot see another sub $100 Goyf.
Yep. MTG cards hold price memory like very few other things in the world. Cards that were once competitive, but now don't see any competitive play anywhere still hold large value. Orim's Chant is one of the best examples I can think of for this. It was competitive years ago in legacy, hasnt seen any significant play for the past few years. It's still over $10. Even Thoughtseize is still around 15-20 ish and that's absurdly expensive for what it is when you think about it.
WOTC has already shown that despite there not being a guarantee for anything aside from the reserved list they're hesitant to aggressively reprint cards to keep costs down. If goyf is reprinted again, you can bet it will be reprinted at mythic rarity in another limited edition set at best. I honestly think the most realistic price for goyf after a reprint is around 150$.
In all honesty the price spikes are terrifying. I got my playsets of Misty Rainforests and Scalding Tarns in the summer of 2012 for 16$ each, which I thought was a lot of money even then. With how little I play magic now that I'm about to graduate college and how much prices of the game have shot up I'm seriously considering cashing out. It's absurd and very scary.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
If the definition of "accessible" is that you can go somewhere and buy the cards, then good news everyone! Vintage is accessible. And so are summer cards. And beta duals. If the wizards meant that accessible=you can buy the card somewhere, then there wasn't even a purpose to creating Modern because Legacy was already accessible. They weren't mentioning accessible as something as simplistic as a binary on/off. If they were, it wouldn't be possible to be more/less accessible because it either is or isn't.
If the definition of "accessible" is that you can go somewhere and buy the cards, then good news everyone! Vintage is accessible. And so are summer cards. And beta duals. If the wizards meant that accessible=you can buy the card somewhere, then there wasn't even a purpose to creating Modern because Legacy was already accessible. They weren't mentioning accessible as something as simplistic as a binary on/off. If they were, it wouldn't be possible to be more/less accessible because it either is or isn't.
That is different. You cant just go to any card shop with a medium sized inventory of Magic and find those cards. I can go downtown and find 4 card shops selling Goyfs and OG Duals. Im not even kidding, there are a lot of stores in my town selling Reserved List cards and even modern staples like fetches every day. Ive seen 2 people come into my LGS and buy a set of Marsh Flats and Mistys at their current price just 1 week ago. The cards are easy to find.
Modern staples can be found anywhere. Some legacy staples can be but aren't in other places. Modern is definatly accessible and any claim saying otherwise needs to look at GP Richmond and Modern Masters. The results of both events? 2 of the largest GP's EVER and at least hundreds of thousands of players getting into the format. Id say its far from out of reach for players.
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
If the definition of "accessible" is that you can go somewhere and buy the cards, then good news everyone! Vintage is accessible. And so are summer cards. And beta duals. If the wizards meant that accessible=you can buy the card somewhere, then there wasn't even a purpose to creating Modern because Legacy was already accessible. They weren't mentioning accessible as something as simplistic as a binary on/off. If they were, it wouldn't be possible to be more/less accessible because it either is or isn't.
That is different. You cant just go to any card shop with a medium sized inventory of Magic and find those cards. I can go downtown and find 4 card shops selling Goyfs and OG Duals. Im not even kidding, there are a lot of stores in my town selling Reserved List cards and even modern staples like fetches every day. Ive seen 2 people come into my LGS and buy a set of Marsh Flats and Mistys at their current price just 1 week ago. The cards are easy to find.
Modern staples can be found anywhere. Some legacy staples can be but aren't in other places. Modern is definatly accessible and any claim saying otherwise needs to look at GP Richmond and Modern Masters. The results of both events? 2 of the largest GP's EVER and at least hundreds of thousands of players getting into the format. Id say its far from out of reach for players.
Yep, being the largest constructed GP in history says it all about accessibility. If it's not accessible then Modern GP should be smaller that Standard GP, and that is not the case. It may not be accessible to some people, but it sure is more accessible than Standard or Legacy. This accessibility actually drove the prices up and people are still buying. Drop the prices to $20 less than the current price and people will flock and buy them and drive the price up again.
On another note, what do you think about the possibility of Onslaught Fetchlands in M15 to lower the price of fetches a little? I believe coresets are usually made for the purposes of reprints and before M10 it's an all reprint set.
On another note, what do you think about the possibility of Onslaught Fetchlands in M15 to lower the price of fetches a little? I believe coresets are usually made for the purposes of reprints and before M10 it's an all reprint set.
Would I love to see Onslaught Fetchlands in M15? Absolutely. Do I think they will be in M15? I highly doubt it. Three months of shocks/fetches/Deathrite Shaman in Standard would be a nightmare.
That onus falls solely on WOTC for playing things too safe. I mean, they try to speak out of both sides of their mouth, in one breath saying they're blind to the secondary market and in the other saying they don't want MM to be another Chronicles...which was a reaction from the secondary market. But it wasn't good enough to limit distribution, jacked the MSRP, and generally make it extraordinarily difficult to get a hold of, they went one step further and made utility cards, 3-4 ofs in many decks, at the mythic rarity...in a limited distribution set. It just makes me eye-roll with that kind of bs, like Voice being at mythic. There is no justifiable reason for Tarmagoyf, V.Clique, or Confidant to be mythic. Swords, sure. Dragons, sure. But give me a break with this cautious reprint policy.
The other price spikes we've been seeing I really and truly believe are artificial. It just so happened that Snapcaster went from $22 to $40 in the weekend of the largest constructed Modern tournament ever? They couldn't process orders for him fast enough? Really? Fetches are worth as much as original duals now? Proof is in the pudding - just look at the SCG site right now. Nerkana Revnant, Emrakul, Ulamog, cards that see fringe to zero play in Modern are spiked. Revnant is $14...how? Why? She's played in next to nothing. I've literally watched cards in my trade binder go from collecting dust in the 50 cent section to guys (who still don't want it) saying 'You know that's at $12 right now?' It's not like Nightveil Specter in Standard, where all of a sudden he's magically a super-awesome 4-of with a new set...These weren't played and aren't played, and they're commanding prices without the demand behind them. Don't believe me? Just check RAV-SOM prices now, if it's even Modern legal and rare of better it's on the rise, playability be damned.
I feel like a reckoning is coming soon. Wizards is going to have to decide to continue catering to the speculative pricing of the secondary market, or reprint according to demand in order to grow their format. They can't have it both ways, because this spike has already disgusted and scared off potential new customers created by the buzz of Richmond. I've watched it in my own LGS, guys that were slowly piecing together their decks are now looking at finishing them for almost double what it was a month ago and shelving it. I just want to play, you know? Kill the price of my cardboard into the ground, just let me freaking play with my friends already. We can't even get enough guys with a deck together to have an 8-man, but the interest in the format is there. So dang frustrating...
Its going to take time, probably years, to catch up on the printing and R&D side. But just like we will never see another .50 FOW, You are not going ot see another sub $100 Goyf.
Yep. MTG cards hold price memory like very few other things in the world. Cards that were once competitive, but now don't see any competitive play anywhere still hold large value. Orim's Chant is one of the best examples I can think of for this. It was competitive years ago in legacy, hasnt seen any significant play for the past few years. It's still over $10. Even Thoughtseize is still around 15-20 ish and that's absurdly expensive for what it is when you think about it.
WOTC has already shown that despite there not being a guarantee for anything aside from the reserved list they're hesitant to aggressively reprint cards to keep costs down. If goyf is reprinted again, you can bet it will be reprinted at mythic rarity in another limited edition set at best. I honestly think the most realistic price for goyf after a reprint is around 150$.
In all honesty the price spikes are terrifying. I got my playsets of Misty Rainforests and Scalding Tarns in the summer of 2012 for 16$ each, which I thought was a lot of money even then. With how little I play magic now that I'm about to graduate college and how much prices of the game have shot up I'm seriously considering cashing out. It's absurd and very scary.
You're not the only one concerned about prices. I sold off my fetch lands (Arid Mesa), because I feel like I am losing self control when it comes to buying MTG cards for brewing due to fear prices spiking more. I used the proceeds to buy into an Affinity deck that I am almost finished building. It is going to be my last Modern deck that I will ever build since there is so few ways to tweak this deck (thank God). Overall I am happy with my decision, because if you are a primarily a Johnny with a hint of spike, Modern price spikes are going to send you into panic mode to buy as much as you can before its too late.
Personally, I love Modern and hope WotC continues reprinting more cards (like Remand and Jace, Architect of Thought) among others in retail sets to lower prices. The best thing about Modern is that it is a Johnny wonderland that is full Spikes for testing brew, the bad thing about Modern is that brewing is becoming far to expensive. I can't believe how much it has taken off and cards that I had bought for $8 have now shot up to $22 or more (Ensnaring Bridge), even Norin apparently has gone up and I got him for like 50 cents, lol. I am like holy crap
Anyway, I can complain about Modern prices all day, but in the end it gives new life to rotated out standard decks. We will likely have more Tier 1 decks in the making that don't cost a body part (or more) as time goes on. My only real concern is that prices will eventually turn away a lot of newer players from the format. The is a lot of conjecture as to why prices are so high, but in the long run value is only perception, especially for things that are outside of necessities. I believe WotC should try to make reprints that would cause prices to stabilize and reduce the potential for spiking of prices.
Honestly, they should just do away with the reserved list. They should allow themselves to reprint older cards, at least in small quantities. I mean, the reserve list didn't exactly stop China from printing thousands of copies of Tarmogoyf. So what's the hold up?
That onus falls solely on WOTC for playing things too safe. I mean, they try to speak out of both sides of their mouth, in one breath saying they're blind to the secondary market and in the other saying they don't want MM to be another Chronicles...which was a reaction from the secondary market. But it wasn't good enough to limit distribution, jacked the MSRP, and generally make it extraordinarily difficult to get a hold of, they went one step further and made utility cards, 3-4 ofs in many decks, at the mythic rarity...in a limited distribution set. It just makes me eye-roll with that kind of bs, like Voice being at mythic. There is no justifiable reason for Tarmagoyf, V.Clique, or Confidant to be mythic. Swords, sure. Dragons, sure. But give me a break with this cautious reprint policy.
The other price spikes we've been seeing I really and truly believe are artificial. It just so happened that Snapcaster went from $22 to $40 in the weekend of the largest constructed Modern tournament ever? They couldn't process orders for him fast enough? Really? Fetches are worth as much as original duals now? Proof is in the pudding - just look at the SCG site right now. Nerkana Revnant, Emrakul, Ulamog, cards that see fringe to zero play in Modern are spiked. Revnant is $14...how? Why? She's played in next to nothing. I've literally watched cards in my trade binder go from collecting dust in the 50 cent section to guys (who still don't want it) saying 'You know that's at $12 right now?' It's not like Nightveil Specter in Standard, where all of a sudden he's magically a super-awesome 4-of with a new set...These weren't played and aren't played, and they're commanding prices without the demand behind them. Don't believe me? Just check RAV-SOM prices now, if it's even Modern legal and rare of better it's on the rise, playability be damned.
I feel like a reckoning is coming soon. Wizards is going to have to decide to continue catering to the speculative pricing of the secondary market, or reprint according to demand in order to grow their format. They can't have it both ways, because this spike has already disgusted and scared off potential new customers created by the buzz of Richmond. I've watched it in my own LGS, guys that were slowly piecing together their decks are now looking at finishing them for almost double what it was a month ago and shelving it. I just want to play, you know? Kill the price of my cardboard into the ground, just let me freaking play with my friends already. We can't even get enough guys with a deck together to have an 8-man, but the interest in the format is there. So dang frustrating...
I think the health of Magic would overall just be a lot better if Magic stops catering to the speculators. If Wizards mass reprints Modern staples and piss speculators and they leave, guess what? Cards will actually be at reasonable prices and more people will actually play the game, and Wizards actually makes more money. Speculators be dammed.
Honestly, they should just do away with the reserved list. They should allow themselves to reprint older cards, at least in small quantities. I mean, the reserve list didn't exactly stop China from printing thousands of copies of Tarmogoyf. So what's the hold up?
Before they do away with the reserve list. Evidence shows that they are still not capable of stabilizing their supply with the demand. Even if they abolish the reserve list, there are still a lot to be reprinted that are not in the list. Force of Will, Wasteland, All 10 Fetchlands, Modern and Legacy staples, etc. The world's population is growing and MTG is getting the attention of a percentage of that growing population.
If the definition of "accessible" is that you can go somewhere and buy the cards, then good news everyone! Vintage is accessible. And so are summer cards. And beta duals. If the wizards meant that accessible=you can buy the card somewhere, then there wasn't even a purpose to creating Modern because Legacy was already accessible. They weren't mentioning accessible as something as simplistic as a binary on/off. If they were, it wouldn't be possible to be more/less accessible because it either is or isn't.
That is different. You cant just go to any card shop with a medium sized inventory of Magic and find those cards. I can go downtown and find 4 card shops selling Goyfs and OG Duals. Im not even kidding, there are a lot of stores in my town selling Reserved List cards and even modern staples like fetches every day. Ive seen 2 people come into my LGS and buy a set of Marsh Flats and Mistys at their current price just 1 week ago. The cards are easy to find.
Modern staples can be found anywhere. Some legacy staples can be but aren't in other places. Modern is definatly accessible and any claim saying otherwise needs to look at GP Richmond and Modern Masters. The results of both events? 2 of the largest GP's EVER and at least hundreds of thousands of players getting into the format. Id say its far from out of reach for players.
My point was that accessibility isn't the binary on/off that people were pretending it was just one page back. There are LEVELS of accessibility. Even you just said "any card shop with a MEDIUM sized inventory" because you also seem to be in agreement that some cards ARE more/less accessible than others. The purpose of Modern was to be MORE accessible than Legacy, as multiple people have pointed out. In response, some people tried to claim that because you can buy Modern cards SOMEWHERE, they are accessible. The thing I wanted to bring up was that you can't just brush off someone saying that cards aren't accessible enough, merely because you can buy them somewhere. Everyone has an opinion. Everyone has a level of accessibility that they think would be ideal. Their opinion is not wrong, just different.
Its going to take time, probably years, to catch up on the printing and R&D side. But just like we will never see another .50 FOW, You are not going ot see another sub $100 Goyf.
Yep. MTG cards hold price memory like very few other things in the world. Cards that were once competitive, but now don't see any competitive play anywhere still hold large value. Orim's Chant is one of the best examples I can think of for this. It was competitive years ago in legacy, hasnt seen any significant play for the past few years. It's still over $10. Even Thoughtseize is still around 15-20 ish and that's absurdly expensive for what it is when you think about it.
WOTC has already shown that despite there not being a guarantee for anything aside from the reserved list they're hesitant to aggressively reprint cards to keep costs down. If goyf is reprinted again, you can bet it will be reprinted at mythic rarity in another limited edition set at best. I honestly think the most realistic price for goyf after a reprint is around 150$.
In all honesty the price spikes are terrifying. I got my playsets of Misty Rainforests and Scalding Tarns in the summer of 2012 for 16$ each, which I thought was a lot of money even then. With how little I play magic now that I'm about to graduate college and how much prices of the game have shot up I'm seriously considering cashing out. It's absurd and very scary.
You're not the only one concerned about prices. I sold off my fetch lands (Arid Mesa), because I feel like I am losing self control when it comes to buying MTG cards for brewing due to fear prices spiking more. I used the proceeds to buy into an Affinity deck that I am almost finished building. It is going to be my last Modern deck that I will ever build since there is so few ways to tweak this deck (thank God). Overall I am happy with my decision, because if you are a primarily a Johnny with a hint of spike, Modern price spikes are going to send you into panic mode to buy as much as you can before its too late.
Personally, I love Modern and hope WotC continues reprinting more cards (like Remand and Jace, Architect of Thought) among others in retail sets to lower prices. The best thing about Modern is that it is a Johnny wonderland that is full Spikes for testing brew, the bad thing about Modern is that brewing is becoming far to expensive. I can't believe how much it has taken off and cards that I had bought for $8 have now shot up to $22 or more (Ensnaring Bridge), even Norin apparently has gone up and I got him for like 50 cents, lol. I am like holy crap
Anyway, I can complain about Modern prices all day, but in the end it gives new life to rotated out standard decks. We will likely have more Tier 1 decks in the making that don't cost a body part (or more) as time goes on. My only real concern is that prices will eventually turn away a lot of newer players from the format. The is a lot of conjecture as to why prices are so high, but in the long run value is only perception, especially for things that are outside of necessities. I believe WotC should try to make reprints that would cause prices to stabilize and reduce the potential for spiking of prices.
The allure of cashing out is really quite tempting. I'm also considering trading off my fetches to decks that don't need them and just wait for the reprint. GW Hatebears, Affinity, Living End and Scapeshift.
The allure of cashing out is really quite tempting. I'm also considering trading off my fetches to decks that don't need them and just wait for the reprint. GW Hatebears, Affinity, Living End and Scapeshift.
Quite frankly, that's a very smart gamble. Chances are very, very likely reprints (and price drops) are on the way soon. Selling out fetches, playing the decks that don't really need them, and then buying back after the price crash could end up paying off big. I'm surprised more people aren't doing this, but I think we Magic players tend to have more of a 'hoarding' mentality.
The allure of cashing out is really quite tempting. I'm also considering trading off my fetches to decks that don't need them and just wait for the reprint. GW Hatebears, Affinity, Living End and Scapeshift.
Quite frankly, that's a very smart gamble. Chances are very, very likely reprints (and price drops) are on the way soon. Selling out fetches, playing the decks that don't really need them, and then buying back after the price crash could end up paying off big. I'm surprised more people aren't doing this, but I think we Magic players tend to have more of a 'hoarding' mentality.
That's exactly my other side of thinking and keeping me from trading them. Hold the fetches and buy another set when the reprint comes. Besides, I'm a player. Even if the price of my collection gets lower, I can still play them and not sell them unlike the shops hoarding them at high prices. You only lose money if you plan on selling them.
I have heard mixed reviews on the game. I have not played personally but know about 8-12 that have or do. Quite a few got beta invite. Some say its a great game, others say its Fischer Price Magic for beginners, and I have heard anything in between. I think MTGO on Steam and Xbox is more a draw then Hearthstone at the moment.
You are confusing affordable, and accessible. What you want is a more affordable game. Because the cards are accessible. Look on TCG, SCG, or Ebay and you can find what you wish. That is the definition of accessible. People just dont have the money to pay the price, which is an affordable issue.
We dont even know if Wotc sees it as a problem. They may be using the prices to control growth now.
The only way I see Wotc has to 'fix' this issue, is another full blow Chronicles 2.0 and flood the market. Could or would that lead to another RL? The whole reason Legacy is dying? I dont think Wotc wants to make the same mistake twice. If anything we will see a slow trickle of reprints.
i have to admit, I have been thinking of this too. I have an obscene amount of money tied up in this game. Every time I see a group of cards surge upwards, the temptation is greater.
Not sure about Ravine but keep Restoration Angel!!!!! It is used in Kiki Pod and if recent trends say anything, I would expect it to keep going up until we see a reprint (whenever that may be).
Well, to be clear, here is the exact quote from the "A Modern Proposal" article that was published at the introduction of the format:
So it's a supply issue, but only in relation to the "size of the audience" of prospective Legacy players. Although price is not explicitly mentioned there, it's pretty obvious that price is an implicit inclusion. Can we think of a Magic-related example where a low-supply card or product also has a low price tag? Can we think of one where low supply ("supply of these cards...going down") relative to high demand ("size of the audience") is an issue for any reason other than price? I'm sure there are some really absurd cornercase examples, but can we think of a reasonable one that Wizards might be suggesting in this quote? To me, it's pretty clear that they mean price.
Also, before some wikipedia logician bombards me with fallacy arguments, I'm not saying that this necessarily follows from the Wizards quote. I'm saying that, by all reasonable interpretations, it's probably what they meant when they wrote it. Also, remember that price doesn't need to be the ONLY issue at stake here. Card supply and card price can actually coexist as issues, despite what a lot of people in this thread have argued in the past.
That is one of the huge problems of Modern and Magic in general. People see this as an investment. Buy now at x price, sell later at y price, and profit. The thing is, Magic is first and foremost a card game. Most people buy Magic cards to play the game, not to invest in them.
Ok, invest is the wrong word. Prices work in cycles for all formats from out of season to coming up on season. We had a couple big events and people see what is working so a certain group of cards has gotten more demand. The closer we get to season, the higher those cards will go. This is a basic working of every format in Magic. I can tell you what cards are going to spike in Standard at rotation, what cards will drop at rotation, and what card will stay close to even and start to climb because they are used in other formats.
Waiting until we are upon a season to decide what you are going to play, is going to cost you more to play 'X' deck. This is true in Standard, Modern, Legacy, and any competitive TCG.
You are trying to argue something that has been going on for 15 years at least in every format, in every TCG.
Because they mention the RL, I see it as not price, but being able to get your hands on cards.
Affordability plus availability = accessibility. I'm not saying all cards should be $2, some are much better than others and that is reflected in their price but the prices are getting higher and higher and availability isn't always increasing due to buyouts, hoarding, people getting and keeping their cards because there's no rotation and so on.
Except the rate at which prices are spiking are a heck of a lot higher than at any time period previously. And barring a reprint, I highly doubt the prices of Modern staples such as Tarmogoyf will go down just because the Modern season is over.
Affordable = being able to get the cards with in your price range
Accessible = just being able to get the cards.
It is true if a card is out of someones price range, to that person that card is inaccessible. But when LGS are selling cards at those prices to people, those cards are not inaccessible over all, just to those who can not afford them. The cards in the format are accessible, go to TCG,SCG, and Ebay and you can find everything you need. Now if you have the budget, thats a different story.
1) Your desirable price drop and my desirable price drop are going ot be 2 different price points. There are millions of players, I am sure Goyf will drop to some players price range. Especially since Goyfs are selling now at the current price.
2) When you add how many player into a market, the prices are bound to go up. The same thing happened when Legacy took off. .50 uncommons became $20 or more literally over night.
I will admit it looks like Wotc was caught unaware of how popular the format was, especially with the numbers prior to the last B&R announcement. Personally I think Wotc felt they would shake up the format a little and hope to show some growth and they got much more then they felt they were going to get.
Its going to take time, probably years, to catch up on the printing and R&D side. But just like we will never see another .50 FOW, You are not going ot see another sub $100 Goyf.
Yep. MTG cards hold price memory like very few other things in the world. Cards that were once competitive, but now don't see any competitive play anywhere still hold large value. Orim's Chant is one of the best examples I can think of for this. It was competitive years ago in legacy, hasnt seen any significant play for the past few years. It's still over $10. Even Thoughtseize is still around 15-20 ish and that's absurdly expensive for what it is when you think about it.
WOTC has already shown that despite there not being a guarantee for anything aside from the reserved list they're hesitant to aggressively reprint cards to keep costs down. If goyf is reprinted again, you can bet it will be reprinted at mythic rarity in another limited edition set at best. I honestly think the most realistic price for goyf after a reprint is around 150$.
In all honesty the price spikes are terrifying. I got my playsets of Misty Rainforests and Scalding Tarns in the summer of 2012 for 16$ each, which I thought was a lot of money even then. With how little I play magic now that I'm about to graduate college and how much prices of the game have shot up I'm seriously considering cashing out. It's absurd and very scary.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
That is different. You cant just go to any card shop with a medium sized inventory of Magic and find those cards. I can go downtown and find 4 card shops selling Goyfs and OG Duals. Im not even kidding, there are a lot of stores in my town selling Reserved List cards and even modern staples like fetches every day. Ive seen 2 people come into my LGS and buy a set of Marsh Flats and Mistys at their current price just 1 week ago. The cards are easy to find.
Modern staples can be found anywhere. Some legacy staples can be but aren't in other places. Modern is definatly accessible and any claim saying otherwise needs to look at GP Richmond and Modern Masters. The results of both events? 2 of the largest GP's EVER and at least hundreds of thousands of players getting into the format. Id say its far from out of reach for players.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Otherwise I would be playing powered Landstill rather than unpowered landstill
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Yep, being the largest constructed GP in history says it all about accessibility. If it's not accessible then Modern GP should be smaller that Standard GP, and that is not the case. It may not be accessible to some people, but it sure is more accessible than Standard or Legacy. This accessibility actually drove the prices up and people are still buying. Drop the prices to $20 less than the current price and people will flock and buy them and drive the price up again.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
Would I love to see Onslaught Fetchlands in M15? Absolutely. Do I think they will be in M15? I highly doubt it. Three months of shocks/fetches/Deathrite Shaman in Standard would be a nightmare.
The other price spikes we've been seeing I really and truly believe are artificial. It just so happened that Snapcaster went from $22 to $40 in the weekend of the largest constructed Modern tournament ever? They couldn't process orders for him fast enough? Really? Fetches are worth as much as original duals now? Proof is in the pudding - just look at the SCG site right now. Nerkana Revnant, Emrakul, Ulamog, cards that see fringe to zero play in Modern are spiked. Revnant is $14...how? Why? She's played in next to nothing. I've literally watched cards in my trade binder go from collecting dust in the 50 cent section to guys (who still don't want it) saying 'You know that's at $12 right now?' It's not like Nightveil Specter in Standard, where all of a sudden he's magically a super-awesome 4-of with a new set...These weren't played and aren't played, and they're commanding prices without the demand behind them. Don't believe me? Just check RAV-SOM prices now, if it's even Modern legal and rare of better it's on the rise, playability be damned.
I feel like a reckoning is coming soon. Wizards is going to have to decide to continue catering to the speculative pricing of the secondary market, or reprint according to demand in order to grow their format. They can't have it both ways, because this spike has already disgusted and scared off potential new customers created by the buzz of Richmond. I've watched it in my own LGS, guys that were slowly piecing together their decks are now looking at finishing them for almost double what it was a month ago and shelving it. I just want to play, you know? Kill the price of my cardboard into the ground, just let me freaking play with my friends already. We can't even get enough guys with a deck together to have an 8-man, but the interest in the format is there. So dang frustrating...
You're not the only one concerned about prices. I sold off my fetch lands (Arid Mesa), because I feel like I am losing self control when it comes to buying MTG cards for brewing due to fear prices spiking more. I used the proceeds to buy into an Affinity deck that I am almost finished building. It is going to be my last Modern deck that I will ever build since there is so few ways to tweak this deck (thank God). Overall I am happy with my decision, because if you are a primarily a Johnny with a hint of spike, Modern price spikes are going to send you into panic mode to buy as much as you can before its too late.
Personally, I love Modern and hope WotC continues reprinting more cards (like Remand and Jace, Architect of Thought) among others in retail sets to lower prices. The best thing about Modern is that it is a Johnny wonderland that is full Spikes for testing brew, the bad thing about Modern is that brewing is becoming far to expensive. I can't believe how much it has taken off and cards that I had bought for $8 have now shot up to $22 or more (Ensnaring Bridge), even Norin apparently has gone up and I got him for like 50 cents, lol. I am like holy crap
Anyway, I can complain about Modern prices all day, but in the end it gives new life to rotated out standard decks. We will likely have more Tier 1 decks in the making that don't cost a body part (or more) as time goes on. My only real concern is that prices will eventually turn away a lot of newer players from the format. The is a lot of conjecture as to why prices are so high, but in the long run value is only perception, especially for things that are outside of necessities. I believe WotC should try to make reprints that would cause prices to stabilize and reduce the potential for spiking of prices.
I think the health of Magic would overall just be a lot better if Magic stops catering to the speculators. If Wizards mass reprints Modern staples and piss speculators and they leave, guess what? Cards will actually be at reasonable prices and more people will actually play the game, and Wizards actually makes more money. Speculators be dammed.
Before they do away with the reserve list. Evidence shows that they are still not capable of stabilizing their supply with the demand. Even if they abolish the reserve list, there are still a lot to be reprinted that are not in the list. Force of Will, Wasteland, All 10 Fetchlands, Modern and Legacy staples, etc. The world's population is growing and MTG is getting the attention of a percentage of that growing population.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
My point was that accessibility isn't the binary on/off that people were pretending it was just one page back. There are LEVELS of accessibility. Even you just said "any card shop with a MEDIUM sized inventory" because you also seem to be in agreement that some cards ARE more/less accessible than others. The purpose of Modern was to be MORE accessible than Legacy, as multiple people have pointed out. In response, some people tried to claim that because you can buy Modern cards SOMEWHERE, they are accessible. The thing I wanted to bring up was that you can't just brush off someone saying that cards aren't accessible enough, merely because you can buy them somewhere. Everyone has an opinion. Everyone has a level of accessibility that they think would be ideal. Their opinion is not wrong, just different.
The allure of cashing out is really quite tempting. I'm also considering trading off my fetches to decks that don't need them and just wait for the reprint. GW Hatebears, Affinity, Living End and Scapeshift.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
Quite frankly, that's a very smart gamble. Chances are very, very likely reprints (and price drops) are on the way soon. Selling out fetches, playing the decks that don't really need them, and then buying back after the price crash could end up paying off big. I'm surprised more people aren't doing this, but I think we Magic players tend to have more of a 'hoarding' mentality.
How To Keep Your FOIL Cards From Curling: http://youtu.be/QTmubrS8VnI
The Best Deck Boxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEwgLph_Pjk
The Best Binders: http://youtu.be/H5IauASYWjk
That's exactly my other side of thinking and keeping me from trading them. Hold the fetches and buy another set when the reprint comes. Besides, I'm a player. Even if the price of my collection gets lower, I can still play them and not sell them unlike the shops hoarding them at high prices. You only lose money if you plan on selling them.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines