Reprinting goyf is as easy as reprinting SFM. You put it into a deck and sell it. The price will plummet, and everyone'shappy except the retards that bought them for 100$. Modern was made in the first place because of legacy card prices. Vendors can't gouge anything that is in an unlimited print run. They can gouge FtV sets because they are at limited supply. But they can't gouge something that can get printed ad infinitum.
If they don't reprint goyf, the format will remain warped by money. The people that have goyf vs the ones who don't. In the end, only ppl with goyf will be able to go to any kind of tournaments.
Reprinting goyf is as easy as reprinting SFM. You put it into a deck and sell it. The price will plummet, and everyone'shappy except the retards that bought them for 100$. Modern was made in the first place because of legacy card prices. Vendors can't gouge anything that is in an unlimited print run. They can gouge FtV sets because they are at limited supply. But they can't gouge something that can get printed ad infinitum.
If they don't reprint goyf, the format will remain warped by money. The people that have goyf vs the ones who don't. In the end, only ppl with goyf will be able to go to any kind of tournaments.
Or the people not playing green...? He's a good creature, but he's not a must-have in every deck. The Modern daily results have reflected that from the start.
wha........aat? Daily results? Hah. I remind you the update to the ban list doesn't come until later. Almost every deck will pack 4xgoyf. Be it aggro or control. Of course there will be a few exceptions like affinity or melira combo.
I'm well aware the results are still using pre-banning lists, but it doesn't change the fact that not every deck is going to play Goyf. As ktkenshinx pointed out, just look at the database of deck prices.
We can have this conversation when Goyf DOES appear as a 4x in 80% of the decks. Which won't happen.
Goyf is easily splashable, yes, but here many people fail to realize that there are relatively few decks that would want a vanilla dork instead of disruption on a stick like Vendilion Clique. If you play Goyf in Control in a format like Modern you're doing it wrong. It even fails to be a 4/5 most of the time. Control has much better creatures that fulfill the role of beatstick. Unlike Legacy, you simply can't build Modern Team America because Goyf does nothing on its own and such deck wouldn't have the CA engine needed to support such a creature while controlling the board.
@Pein: Sinceramente, creo que te has equivocado de formato si pretendes que reimpriman/baneen todas las cartas que cuesten más de dos duros para que esto sea más barato que Estándar.
If you play Goyf in Control in a format like Modern you're doing it wrong. It even fails to be a 4/5 most of the time. Control has much better creatures that fulfill the role of beatstick.
Completely honest and legitimate question: which? Control decks are currently winning with Cliques and... Cliques. There's no SFM, no BB and no Thopter combo. They're basically stuck trying to use Elspeth and Gideon as "beaters." I don't know what good win conditions they have access to that beats out a Goyf.
I'm well aware the results are still using pre-banning lists, but it doesn't change the fact that not every deck is going to play Goyf. As ktkenshinx pointed out, just look at the database of deck prices.
Sorry, Pein is correct. Anyone who has played or tested Modern extensively post banning is well aware that outside of combo and affinity, every deck is running Goyf, or is a budget deck/bad/whatever.
Let's just go down some different viable decks here,
Zoo, NLU, Bant, Gifts Rock, GB Rock, Doran, Team America (Goyf, Tombstalker, Disruption in Modern). Goyf is a 4-of in all of the decks I just mentioned, any deck that wants to play Knight of the Reliquary that isn't some weird land based combo is almost certainly going to want Goyf.
Merfolk has the option to splash green for Goyf if it chooses - don't laugh, it used to do this in Legacy.
There are other decks people are playing, they just aren't good or are combo. Living End is popular, but is combo. Burn is just bad. Both the UW and UWB Teachings decks are bad because they are far too slow and have less inevitability than gifts decks. Urzatron is completely unplayable as long as affinity and zoo are decks (they are).
The format is combo and goyf decks, and then a special archetype fueled by cranial plating.
Sorry, Pein is correct. Anyone who has played or tested Modern extensively post banning is well aware that outside of combo and affinity, every deck is running Goyf, or is a budget deck/bad/whatever.
Let's just go down some different viable decks here,
Zoo, NLU, Bant, Gifts Rock, GB Rock, Doran, Team America (Goyf, Tombstalker, Disruption in Modern). Goyf is a 4-of in all of the decks I just mentioned, any deck that wants to play Knight of the Reliquary that isn't some weird land based combo is almost certainly going to want Goyf.
Merfolk has the option to splash green for Goyf if it chooses - don't laugh, it used to do this in Legacy.
There are other decks people are playing, they just aren't good or are combo. Living End is popular, but is combo. Burn is just bad. Both the UW and UWB Teachings decks are bad because they are far too slow and have less inevitability than gifts decks. Urzatron is completely unplayable as long as affinity and zoo are decks (they are).
I never disagreed with any of that. Pein said that the only option was to play Goyf, and I countered by saying that there was also the option of not playing green. You've listed a bunch of decks that play green and play Goyf, as well as a few decks that don't play green and don't play Goyf. Which is an option. Which is what I said and why I disagree with Pein. You don't have to play Goyf because you don't have to play green. If you want to play green, you (probably, excluding corner cases) need to play Goyf. Simple.
The format is combo and goyf decks, and then a special archetype fueled by cranial plating.
They're not "Goyf decks"; they're aggro and aggro-control decks that play Goyf because he's an efficient creature. He doesn't define the archetypes and the decks would continue to exist without him. What's unhealthy about a format where all the decks of a certain archetype and a certain color play a certain card because of its efficiency? If that's the metric for banning Goyf then Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt should also be banned.
Also, for what it's worth, there is substantial debate among Death Cloud Rock builders about the use of Goyf in that deck, and many are coming down against it. So I would continue argue that not even every deck with green automatically wants Goyf.
What's so special about a shockland that differs it from, say, a pain land?
Both have drawbacks, but the timings are different. One has drawbacks when you play it, and another when you use it for colored mana.
But only shocklands are fetchable. Why? They should both be fetchable.
@Bacon. your post makes no sense.
Do you have any idea about what forum you are posting in?
Do you not understand the ridiculous power level you are supposing on every single non-basic land?
If my Rootbound Craig was both Mountain and Forest, then it would be a perfect Taiga. The absolute restricted design space for any non-basic lands would just be stripped away.
Really dude, there is a noggen on your shoulders, please use it.
Españolizando el foro: No creo que él espere que reimpriman TODAS para que sea casi gratis jugar, pero los confis, las dobles y el tarmo son lo más ido de virgen en precio y si no lo cortan rápido tendremos la misma situación que con legacy en un año o así. No es que nos deban nada, pero si de verdad quieren venderle sobres a la gente PARA modern, tiene que ser un formato sano. No me imagino a los chavales dejandose 300 pavos en 4 monos verdes.
Yo por si acaso me haré con los tarmos en Navidades o algo del rollo...
If you would, please use spoiler tags for Non-English, or take it to PM. Some members find that it makes the discussion difficult to follow.
@ Pein: Honestly, I think that you have the wrong format if you want you restrict / ban all cards that cost more than two dollars to make it cheaper than standard.
Españolizando: I do not think that he wait for the restriction to make it almost free to play, but the Confidants, the Duals and the tarmo is gone most of Virgin in price and if does not cut it fast we will have the same situation as with legacy in a year or so. It is not that they need us anything, but if you really want to sell envelopes for modern people, it has to be a healthy format. I can not imagine letting kids 300 pavos in 4 green monkeys.
I just in case I do with the tarmos at Christmas or something of the roll...
[Automatically translated by Microsoft® Translator] italics mine.
Do you have any idea about what forum you are posting in?
Do you not understand the ridiculous power level you are supposing on every single non-basic land?
If my Rootbound Craig was both Mountain and Forest, then it would be a perfect Taiga. The absolute restricted design space for any non-basic lands would just be stripped away.
Really dude, there is a noggen on your shoulders, please use it.
The problem IMO is fetchlands. For better or worse we have them, but fetches are the reason rav duals are better than every other 2 color land in the format. While it was nice that they enabled landfall, I was so glad they were rotating out of extended because it meant they were giving other quality dual lands a chance. Then they shook up extended and created modern.
So the answer is of course. A) Better/equal duals than Rav Duals, or 2) Reprint Rav Duals, because the standard now is anything that doesn't have basic land types on it is subpar unless it taps for 5 colors.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Españolizando el foro: No creo que él espere que reimpriman TODAS para que sea casi gratis jugar, pero los confis, las dobles y el tarmo son lo más ido de virgen en precio y si no lo cortan rápido tendremos la misma situación que con legacy en un año o así. No es que nos deban nada, pero si de verdad quieren venderle sobres a la gente PARA modern, tiene que ser un formato sano. No me imagino a los chavales dejandose 300 pavos en 4 monos verdes.
Yo por si acaso me haré con los tarmos en Navidades o algo del rollo...
Per Bing Translator:
The case is that I think in very bad taste this request to baneen something simply because it is expensive. It is that this is a game, and that WotC has established this format to make it easier to access than Legacy, but they do not have the duty to make your favorite deck is capped at € 30. What is more, the price cannot be controlled with a simple ban/reprint/foo. If banean Tarmogoyf, Vendilion will become the ticket of € 100 for the format. What will we do then? Banearlo to him also? And then what? To ban the confidants?
El caso es que me parece de muy mal gusto esto de pedir que baneen algo simplemente porque sea caro. Vale que esto sea un juego, y que WotC haya establecido este formato para que sea más fácil de acceder que Legacy, pero ellos no tienen el deber de hacer que tu mazo favorito valga un tope de 30€. Es más, el precio no se puede controlar con un simple ban/reimpresión/loquesea. Si banean los Tarmogoyf, Vendilion pasará a ser el billete de 100€ del formato. Qué haremos entonces? Banearlo a él también? Y después qué? A banear los confidentes?
Please keep the discussion in English. t_c
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WotC doesn't have the duty to make your deck be cheap, and banning Goyf won't solve anything, as without him Vendilion Clique will be the finisher of choice then, and reach Goyf prices in no time. If you ban Clique, then Dark Confidant will take the throne. It's just a problem of supply and demand.
The problem IMO is fetchlands. For better or worse we have them, but fetches are the reason rav duals are better than every other 2 color land in the format. While it was nice that they enabled landfall, I was so glad they were rotating out of extended because it meant they were giving other quality dual lands a chance. Then they shook up extended and created modern.
I'm on the fence about this one. With regard to the current cost of the shocklands and the cost of Modern in general, you are absolutely 100% unarguably correct. Without Modern-legal fetches the manabases would have considerably more variability and the shocklands would be more affordable. But at the same time, I'm glad they printed the Zendikar fetches. They're still relatively cheap (you can get Verdant Catacombs for ~$7 a pop if you're patient) and I like them better than the shocks (if I have to choose only one) for color fixing. In the interest of full disclosure, I also realize that I'm highly biased because I already owned the shocklands before Modern was announced.
WotC doesn't have the duty to make your deck be cheap, and banning Goyf won't solve anything, as without him Vendilion Clique will be the finisher of choice then, and reach Goyf prices in no time. If you ban Clique, then Dark Confidant will take the throne. It's just a problem of supply and demand.
This. A thousand times this. Seriously, secondary market cost has absolutely zero validity as an argument for banning.
I never disagreed with any of that. Pein said that the only option was to play Goyf, and I countered by saying that there was also the option of not playing green. You've listed a bunch of decks that play green and play Goyf, as well as a few decks that don't play green and don't play Goyf. Which is an option. Which is what I said and why I disagree with Pein. You don't have to play Goyf because you don't have to play green. If you want to play green, you (probably, excluding corner cases) need to play Goyf. Simple.
They're not "Goyf decks"; they're aggro and aggro-control decks that play Goyf because he's an efficient creature. He doesn't define the archetypes and the decks would continue to exist without him. What's unhealthy about a format where all the decks of a certain archetype and a certain color play a certain card because of its efficiency? If that's the metric for banning Goyf then Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt should also be banned.
Also, for what it's worth, there is substantial debate among Death Cloud Rock builders about the use of Goyf in that deck, and many are coming down against it. So I would continue argue that not even every deck with green automatically wants Goyf.
Living End is green and doesn't play Goyf, but that was my point, every non-combo deck that isn't tribal aggro is playing Goyf or probably isn't competitive. I haven't seen that Death Cloud deck do well at all, since it was metagamed for a deck that no longer exists.
All the decks that are white don't have 4 Path, sometimes they don't have any. Same with red decks and Lightning bolt, some would rather run punishing fire. Path has a real cost to balance out it's power, you don't just throw 4 in a white deck, and people play basic lands just to get value off of your path.
How many decks are attacking with creatures and don't run Goyf? Excluding Living End (Because you can't run him and cascade into LE reliably, otherwise he might actually be in it, not to mention, combo) every deck running green is playing him if they win with creatures, which right now appears to be all of green.
What's wrong with a 100 dollar card defining the format and every creature deck in it? Quite simply the cost of the format is too great and it isn't being widely played, that's the problem.
People played extended and didn't, for the most part, like it. People don't even know if they like modern or not, because like Legacy, the cost is so expensive most people aren't willing to spend the money to enter the format before reprints.
Can anybody explain to me why they think it should be Wizard's job to control a secondary market on cards they haven't printed in years? Out of print cards are worth whatever somebody will pay, which is controlled by supply and demand. Whining about prices on a forum isn't going to increase the supply or reduce the demand of cards you can't afford. If you don't like modern prices, you have a few options. Build a competitive affinity deck for $200 (if that since most people already have half the cards for it), or just play standard. However, standard is by far more expensive in the long run than modern. In modern, you spend $1000-1,500 on a deck and that's it, it doesn't really change a whole lot. In standard, you spend $300-400 building a tier 1 deck, and every 3 months you have to spend another $100-300 on cards when a new set comes out to keep the deck competitive. Then when the stuff rotates and you go to sell it, any cards that won't see play in legacy/modern plummet in value from when you purchased them. My Tarmogoyfs aren't going to rotate out of modern, and they will always be worth close to what I got them for.
Can anybody explain to me why they think it should be Wizard's job to control a secondary market on cards they haven't printed in years? Out of print cards are worth whatever somebody will pay, which is controlled by supply and demand. Whining about prices on a forum isn't going to increase the supply or reduce the demand of cards you can't afford. If you don't like modern prices, you have a few options. Build a competitive affinity deck for $200 (if that since most people already have half the cards for it), or just play standard. However, standard is by far more expensive in the long run than modern. In modern, you spend $1000-1,500 on a deck and that's it, it doesn't really change a whole lot. In standard, you spend $300-400 building a tier 1 deck, and every 3 months you have to spend another $100-300 on cards when a new set comes out to keep the deck competitive. Then when the stuff rotates and you go to sell it, any cards that won't see play in legacy/modern plummet in value from when you purchased them. My Tarmogoyfs aren't going to rotate out of modern, and they will always be worth close to what I got them for.
The whole point of this format is that the cards are unreserved. You are correct that your cards won't rotate, but if you are just holding them to play them why do you care if they get reprinted?
The legacy guys have been saying for years "reprint stuff" so we have more people to play this format. Wizards said the can't so the people asked for a format where they could. The whole point is to have a PTQ/LGS non-rotating format. The way to acomplish that is with reprints.
If there is that much demand then $100 goyfs become $200 goyfs and you get people dismissing the format because half the decks cost $1000+.
With that said, IMO $30 shocks are more of an issue than $100 goyfs.
IMO Goyf could have been in Innistrad. He's just as mechanically inclined as say Boneyard Wurm, but because he doesn't fit the flavor he gets excluded which is poor design on wotc's part. IMO put him in M13 as a Mythic and get it over with. If he's out of control in standard (which I doubt) ban him.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
It wouldn't be hard to reprint goyf, just don't put him in a standard with fetchlands.
I disagree. Any card that lets you bin other cards is going to make Goyf just as big. For example, Forbidden Alchemy would be ridiculous in Standard if Goyf was in Innistrad.
How many decks are attacking with creatures and don't run Goyf? Excluding Living End (Because you can't run him and cascade into LE reliably, otherwise he might actually be in it, not to mention, combo) every deck running green is playing him if they win with creatures, which right now appears to be all of green.
I'm not disagreeing with this. At all. In fact, I said exactly the same thing:
You don't have to play Goyf because you don't have to play green. If you want to play green, you (probably, excluding corner cases) need to play Goyf. Simple.
What's wrong with a 100 dollar card defining the format and every creature deck in it?
Again, I take issue with the phrase "defining the format". The decks you're listing aren't Goyf decks and they are specifically designed around Goyf. They don't rely on Goyf to be decks. They're just good decks that play efficient creatures and he's the most efficient (non-utility) creature in the format, so of course they're going to play him.
Quite simply the cost of the format is too great and it isn't being widely played, that's the problem.
People played extended and didn't, for the most part, like it. People don't even know if they like modern or not, because like Legacy, the cost is so expensive most people aren't willing to spend the money to enter the format before reprints.
I think this is the point I really take issue with. Competitive formats are always going to be expensive. Is $100 per card a hard-and-fast rule? If Goyf were going for $90 a pop, would we be having this discussion? How about $60? $40? Etc. It just seems arbitrary to take the most expensive card in the format and cry for a reprint based solely on its cost. If Goyf got reprinted and its price plummeted to $10 a pop, would the cries of "too expensive" stop, or would we just make a new thread where people declared that "X" was too expensive and needed to be reprinted?
IMO Goyf could have been in Innistrad. He's just as mechanically inclined as say Boneyard Wurm, but because he doesn't fit the flavor he gets excluded which is poor design on wotc's part. IMO put him in M13 as a Mythic and get it over with. If he's out of control in standard (which I doubt) ban him.
So in your opinion it's poor design to follow a theme for a set? In your opinion the entire gothic / horror trope theme should have been scrapped from Innistrad just so that Goyf could be reprinted? Should current value in Modern be the only thing that dictates reprints? And if so, should that come at the expense of flavorful design that follows a theme?
So in your opinion it's poor design to follow a theme for a set? In your opinion the entire gothic / horror trope theme should have been scrapped from Innistrad just so that Goyf could be reprinted? Should current value in Modern be the only thing that dictates reprints? And if so, should that come at the expense of flavorful design that follows a theme?
I'm saying they print a lot of cards that are similar to other cards because they fit a different flavor. Maybe its not bad design, but where else are they going to get a set that thematically can hold goyf. That forces any mass reprint to go in a core set.
Regarding all the self-Mill in ISD. Standard Green probably needs a little love.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I'm saying they print a lot of cards that are similar to other cards because they fit a different flavor. Maybe its not bad design, but where else are they going to get a set that thematically can hold goyf. That forces any mass reprint to go in a core set.
Regarding all the self-Mill in ISD. Standard Green probably needs a little love.
it would just be a UB deck that splashes green for goyf lol. Just like in every other format, its either U or R decks that use green for goyf.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
If you don't run green, you splash for green and then put goyf in.
The only noncombo, nonaffinity deck I see won't play goyf is esper teachings. But the viability of the deck still remains to be seen... why? Because they lack good finishers (I think). I mean, they can play BSA or tomstalker, but I don't know if they would be good enough in there.
Goyf needs a reprint. But if after worlds, almost every deck plays 4xgoyf and there are like 24 copies of it in the top8 and such, I don't know if that is health for the format to be absolutely dominated by a creature that sees play in aggro, aggro control, control, you name it. We will see I guess, in november. Waiting is what kills me.
The question wizards has to answer is, do they really want control decks to play such creature? If yes, reprint. If not, ban. Because with the recent bans, the power level has been radically lowered and we are back to long ago in those terms.
I think this is the point I really take issue with. Competitive formats are always going to be expensive. Is $100 per card a hard-and-fast rule? If Goyf were going for $90 a pop, would we be having this discussion? How about $60? $40? Etc. It just seems arbitrary to take the most expensive card in the format and cry for a reprint based solely on its cost. If Goyf got reprinted and its price plummeted to $10 a pop, would the cries of "too expensive" stop, or would we just make a new thread where people declared that "X" was too expensive and needed to be reprinted?
Expensive cards aren't a problem, expensive STAPLES are a problem in non-rotating formats. People aren't clamoring for just every expensive Legacy card to be reprinted, they want Duals, Forces and Wastelands. Candelabra of Tawnos and Imperial Recruiter cost a fortune, but it doesn't really matter if they get reprinted because they have a very low impact on the format. 99 percent of magic players can play Legacy without ever playing High Tide. They can't enjoy Legacy without Wasteland, Force and Duals.*
Not counting lands, I would venture Goyf is the most played card in Modern after the bans, and not counting banned cards, namely cantrips, probably before the bans.
He is even worse of a problem than Shocklands because you don't need 4x of every colored shockland for a deck, and options like filter lands aren't just worse. He's also a chase rare in the third block of a set, making him unusually rare.
Goyf and shocklands are different than the other expensive cards that are in the format. Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, Mutavault, Vendillion Clique, Cryptic Command, these cards are never going to be staples the same way as Goyf, and are being inflated mostly due to their use in other formats. Decks aren't going to splash blue for Clique and certainly not for Cryptic Command. Thoughtseize is rarely a 4-of and between Duress, Inquisition and Distress you have a lot of similar, and sometimes better options considering the nature of the format. You can't even splash for it the same way since it is generally only played in decks that can cast it on turn 1.
In short, it is OK for cards or decks to be expensive, but not staples. If Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas were 60 dollars in standard due to being a powerhouse in Legacy or just being part of a good deck, that is fine. If Scars Duals, Preordain, or Dismember were 30 dollar cards, standard would be an unplayable format.
*I am aware Force and Wasteland can be reprinted, but it doesn't help because dual lands cannot be, so there would still exist a very real bottleneck in terms of playable cards at a reasonable cost. This is only true in paper, not online.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
When are they reprinting Snapcaster Mage? He's too expensive.
LMAO. This guy makes a good point. Who decides what makes a Magic card "expensive"? If the $70-100 cards get reprinted, everybody will ***** about $50-70 cards. If they reprint those staples, people will be complaining about $40-50 cards. An "expensive" card is all relative. To somebody who plays Magic 7 days a week and plays in major tournaments, 4 goyfs isn't a big investment. To somebody who just got into Magic and buys a few booster packs on Friday night, goyf is very expensive. I just don't understand why people think it's WotC's responsibility to control a secondhand market on cards they don't even produce any more. If I were WotC, I would rather keep the people happy that have spent thousands of dollars on out of print cards both new and secondhand instead of reprinting any card that gets "expensive". People who paid a lot of money for a card don't want to see the value cut in half because of a reprint. I'm just trying to make people see the other side of the coin here. Not everybody is in the boat of "I can't afford Goyf/shocklands so reprint them." Many people are in the boat of "I spent a TON of money on Goyfs and shocklands so hopefully they don't reprint them and kill the price."
It's in Wizards' best interest to make sure people can actually play and enjoy formats, and Tarmogoyf is a giant impediment to that. If you want to play Modern competitively, you can invest nearly $400 on Tarmogoyf (A card that, yes, is either going to kill the format or get banned/reprinted), bring a deck that just isn't as good because you don't have Tarmogoyf, or play one of a handful of fringe-y decks that don't have an use for Tarmogoyf (E.g., combo).
If you bought Tarmogoyf as an investment expecting it to hold its value on the long term, I'd like to be the first to welcome you to the 21st century: We have cell phones, a new card frame, and no reserved list. Magic is a game first and a collectible second, and if you'd rather people stay out of a format than have your precious precious cardboard devalue, well, then you look a lot like this guy.
If on the other hand you're like a lot of people who bought Tarmogoyf so they could play the damn game, then I realise having Tarmogoyf reprinted hurts, but it's either that, banning him or watching as Modern becomes another Legacy where the only people playing are those who've bought into playing with $80 cards. Your cards aren't worth anything if nobody will play the format they're good for.
And no, this isn't a case of "hate on the most expensive card in the format," this is a case of the format suffering because the most expensive card in it is a staple that almost every deck would do well to play with. Thoughtseize, Cryptic Command, Bob and so on are all cards that 1. Don't cost anywhere near as much as Tarmogoyf in the first place (The most expensive one is Bob, who costs half of what Tarmogoyf goes for) 2. Don't have to be run in all decks, 3. Don't have to be run at all really. Thoughtseize is expensive more because of its history than anything, as Inquisition of Kozilek and Duress replace it in many decks. Cryptic Command isn't actually that expensive in the first place, and many decks that run it don't want four. Bob is probably the closest thing to Tarmogoyf, and he's nowhere near as ubiquitous or necessary.
If they don't reprint goyf, the format will remain warped by money. The people that have goyf vs the ones who don't. In the end, only ppl with goyf will be able to go to any kind of tournaments.
Or the people not playing green...? He's a good creature, but he's not a must-have in every deck. The Modern daily results have reflected that from the start.
Goyf is easily splashable, yes, but here many people fail to realize that there are relatively few decks that would want a vanilla dork instead of disruption on a stick like Vendilion Clique. If you play Goyf in Control in a format like Modern you're doing it wrong. It even fails to be a 4/5 most of the time. Control has much better creatures that fulfill the role of beatstick. Unlike Legacy, you simply can't build Modern Team America because Goyf does nothing on its own and such deck wouldn't have the CA engine needed to support such a creature while controlling the board.
@Pein: Sinceramente, creo que te has equivocado de formato si pretendes que reimpriman/baneen todas las cartas que cuesten más de dos duros para que esto sea más barato que Estándar.
Keep the discussion in English please.
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Completely honest and legitimate question: which? Control decks are currently winning with Cliques and... Cliques. There's no SFM, no BB and no Thopter combo. They're basically stuck trying to use Elspeth and Gideon as "beaters." I don't know what good win conditions they have access to that beats out a Goyf.
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Sorry, Pein is correct. Anyone who has played or tested Modern extensively post banning is well aware that outside of combo and affinity, every deck is running Goyf, or is a budget deck/bad/whatever.
Let's just go down some different viable decks here,
Zoo, NLU, Bant, Gifts Rock, GB Rock, Doran, Team America (Goyf, Tombstalker, Disruption in Modern). Goyf is a 4-of in all of the decks I just mentioned, any deck that wants to play Knight of the Reliquary that isn't some weird land based combo is almost certainly going to want Goyf.
Merfolk has the option to splash green for Goyf if it chooses - don't laugh, it used to do this in Legacy.
There are other decks people are playing, they just aren't good or are combo. Living End is popular, but is combo. Burn is just bad. Both the UW and UWB Teachings decks are bad because they are far too slow and have less inevitability than gifts decks. Urzatron is completely unplayable as long as affinity and zoo are decks (they are).
The format is combo and goyf decks, and then a special archetype fueled by cranial plating.
I never disagreed with any of that. Pein said that the only option was to play Goyf, and I countered by saying that there was also the option of not playing green. You've listed a bunch of decks that play green and play Goyf, as well as a few decks that don't play green and don't play Goyf. Which is an option. Which is what I said and why I disagree with Pein. You don't have to play Goyf because you don't have to play green. If you want to play green, you (probably, excluding corner cases) need to play Goyf. Simple.
They're not "Goyf decks"; they're aggro and aggro-control decks that play Goyf because he's an efficient creature. He doesn't define the archetypes and the decks would continue to exist without him. What's unhealthy about a format where all the decks of a certain archetype and a certain color play a certain card because of its efficiency? If that's the metric for banning Goyf then Path to Exile and Lightning Bolt should also be banned.
Also, for what it's worth, there is substantial debate among Death Cloud Rock builders about the use of Goyf in that deck, and many are coming down against it. So I would continue argue that not even every deck with green automatically wants Goyf.
Do you have any idea about what forum you are posting in?
Do you not understand the ridiculous power level you are supposing on every single non-basic land?
If my Rootbound Craig was both Mountain and Forest, then it would be a perfect Taiga. The absolute restricted design space for any non-basic lands would just be stripped away.
Really dude, there is a noggen on your shoulders, please use it.
If you would, please use spoiler tags for Non-English, or take it to PM. Some members find that it makes the discussion difficult to follow.
@ Pein: Honestly, I think that you have the wrong format if you want you restrict / ban all cards that cost more than two dollars to make it cheaper than standard.
Españolizando: I do not think that he wait for the restriction to make it almost free to play, but the Confidants, the Duals and the tarmo is gone most of Virgin in price and if does not cut it fast we will have the same situation as with legacy in a year or so. It is not that they need us anything, but if you really want to sell envelopes for modern people, it has to be a healthy format. I can not imagine letting kids 300 pavos in 4 green monkeys.
I just in case I do with the tarmos at Christmas or something of the roll...
[Automatically translated by Microsoft® Translator] italics mine.
The problem IMO is fetchlands. For better or worse we have them, but fetches are the reason rav duals are better than every other 2 color land in the format. While it was nice that they enabled landfall, I was so glad they were rotating out of extended because it meant they were giving other quality dual lands a chance. Then they shook up extended and created modern.
So the answer is of course. A) Better/equal duals than Rav Duals, or 2) Reprint Rav Duals, because the standard now is anything that doesn't have basic land types on it is subpar unless it taps for 5 colors.
Per Bing Translator:
The case is that I think in very bad taste this request to baneen something simply because it is expensive. It is that this is a game, and that WotC has established this format to make it easier to access than Legacy, but they do not have the duty to make your favorite deck is capped at € 30. What is more, the price cannot be controlled with a simple ban/reprint/foo. If banean Tarmogoyf, Vendilion will become the ticket of € 100 for the format. What will we do then? Banearlo to him also? And then what? To ban the confidants?
Please keep the discussion in English. t_c
--
WotC doesn't have the duty to make your deck be cheap, and banning Goyf won't solve anything, as without him Vendilion Clique will be the finisher of choice then, and reach Goyf prices in no time. If you ban Clique, then Dark Confidant will take the throne. It's just a problem of supply and demand.
I'm on the fence about this one. With regard to the current cost of the shocklands and the cost of Modern in general, you are absolutely 100% unarguably correct. Without Modern-legal fetches the manabases would have considerably more variability and the shocklands would be more affordable. But at the same time, I'm glad they printed the Zendikar fetches. They're still relatively cheap (you can get Verdant Catacombs for ~$7 a pop if you're patient) and I like them better than the shocks (if I have to choose only one) for color fixing. In the interest of full disclosure, I also realize that I'm highly biased because I already owned the shocklands before Modern was announced.
This. A thousand times this. Seriously, secondary market cost has absolutely zero validity as an argument for banning.
Living End is green and doesn't play Goyf, but that was my point, every non-combo deck that isn't tribal aggro is playing Goyf or probably isn't competitive. I haven't seen that Death Cloud deck do well at all, since it was metagamed for a deck that no longer exists.
All the decks that are white don't have 4 Path, sometimes they don't have any. Same with red decks and Lightning bolt, some would rather run punishing fire. Path has a real cost to balance out it's power, you don't just throw 4 in a white deck, and people play basic lands just to get value off of your path.
How many decks are attacking with creatures and don't run Goyf? Excluding Living End (Because you can't run him and cascade into LE reliably, otherwise he might actually be in it, not to mention, combo) every deck running green is playing him if they win with creatures, which right now appears to be all of green.
What's wrong with a 100 dollar card defining the format and every creature deck in it? Quite simply the cost of the format is too great and it isn't being widely played, that's the problem.
People played extended and didn't, for the most part, like it. People don't even know if they like modern or not, because like Legacy, the cost is so expensive most people aren't willing to spend the money to enter the format before reprints.
The whole point of this format is that the cards are unreserved. You are correct that your cards won't rotate, but if you are just holding them to play them why do you care if they get reprinted?
The legacy guys have been saying for years "reprint stuff" so we have more people to play this format. Wizards said the can't so the people asked for a format where they could. The whole point is to have a PTQ/LGS non-rotating format. The way to acomplish that is with reprints.
If there is that much demand then $100 goyfs become $200 goyfs and you get people dismissing the format because half the decks cost $1000+.
With that said, IMO $30 shocks are more of an issue than $100 goyfs.
IMO Goyf could have been in Innistrad. He's just as mechanically inclined as say Boneyard Wurm, but because he doesn't fit the flavor he gets excluded which is poor design on wotc's part. IMO put him in M13 as a Mythic and get it over with. If he's out of control in standard (which I doubt) ban him.
I disagree. Any card that lets you bin other cards is going to make Goyf just as big. For example, Forbidden Alchemy would be ridiculous in Standard if Goyf was in Innistrad.
I'm not disagreeing with this. At all. In fact, I said exactly the same thing:
Again, I take issue with the phrase "defining the format". The decks you're listing aren't Goyf decks and they are specifically designed around Goyf. They don't rely on Goyf to be decks. They're just good decks that play efficient creatures and he's the most efficient (non-utility) creature in the format, so of course they're going to play him.
I think this is the point I really take issue with. Competitive formats are always going to be expensive. Is $100 per card a hard-and-fast rule? If Goyf were going for $90 a pop, would we be having this discussion? How about $60? $40? Etc. It just seems arbitrary to take the most expensive card in the format and cry for a reprint based solely on its cost. If Goyf got reprinted and its price plummeted to $10 a pop, would the cries of "too expensive" stop, or would we just make a new thread where people declared that "X" was too expensive and needed to be reprinted?
So in your opinion it's poor design to follow a theme for a set? In your opinion the entire gothic / horror trope theme should have been scrapped from Innistrad just so that Goyf could be reprinted? Should current value in Modern be the only thing that dictates reprints? And if so, should that come at the expense of flavorful design that follows a theme?
I'm saying they print a lot of cards that are similar to other cards because they fit a different flavor. Maybe its not bad design, but where else are they going to get a set that thematically can hold goyf. That forces any mass reprint to go in a core set.
Regarding all the self-Mill in ISD. Standard Green probably needs a little love.
it would just be a UB deck that splashes green for goyf lol. Just like in every other format, its either U or R decks that use green for goyf.
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The only noncombo, nonaffinity deck I see won't play goyf is esper teachings. But the viability of the deck still remains to be seen... why? Because they lack good finishers (I think). I mean, they can play BSA or tomstalker, but I don't know if they would be good enough in there.
Goyf needs a reprint. But if after worlds, almost every deck plays 4xgoyf and there are like 24 copies of it in the top8 and such, I don't know if that is health for the format to be absolutely dominated by a creature that sees play in aggro, aggro control, control, you name it. We will see I guess, in november. Waiting is what kills me.
The question wizards has to answer is, do they really want control decks to play such creature? If yes, reprint. If not, ban. Because with the recent bans, the power level has been radically lowered and we are back to long ago in those terms.
Expensive cards aren't a problem, expensive STAPLES are a problem in non-rotating formats. People aren't clamoring for just every expensive Legacy card to be reprinted, they want Duals, Forces and Wastelands. Candelabra of Tawnos and Imperial Recruiter cost a fortune, but it doesn't really matter if they get reprinted because they have a very low impact on the format. 99 percent of magic players can play Legacy without ever playing High Tide. They can't enjoy Legacy without Wasteland, Force and Duals.*
Not counting lands, I would venture Goyf is the most played card in Modern after the bans, and not counting banned cards, namely cantrips, probably before the bans.
He is even worse of a problem than Shocklands because you don't need 4x of every colored shockland for a deck, and options like filter lands aren't just worse. He's also a chase rare in the third block of a set, making him unusually rare.
Goyf and shocklands are different than the other expensive cards that are in the format. Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize, Mutavault, Vendillion Clique, Cryptic Command, these cards are never going to be staples the same way as Goyf, and are being inflated mostly due to their use in other formats. Decks aren't going to splash blue for Clique and certainly not for Cryptic Command. Thoughtseize is rarely a 4-of and between Duress, Inquisition and Distress you have a lot of similar, and sometimes better options considering the nature of the format. You can't even splash for it the same way since it is generally only played in decks that can cast it on turn 1.
In short, it is OK for cards or decks to be expensive, but not staples. If Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas were 60 dollars in standard due to being a powerhouse in Legacy or just being part of a good deck, that is fine. If Scars Duals, Preordain, or Dismember were 30 dollar cards, standard would be an unplayable format.
*I am aware Force and Wasteland can be reprinted, but it doesn't help because dual lands cannot be, so there would still exist a very real bottleneck in terms of playable cards at a reasonable cost. This is only true in paper, not online.
LMAO. This guy makes a good point. Who decides what makes a Magic card "expensive"? If the $70-100 cards get reprinted, everybody will ***** about $50-70 cards. If they reprint those staples, people will be complaining about $40-50 cards. An "expensive" card is all relative. To somebody who plays Magic 7 days a week and plays in major tournaments, 4 goyfs isn't a big investment. To somebody who just got into Magic and buys a few booster packs on Friday night, goyf is very expensive. I just don't understand why people think it's WotC's responsibility to control a secondhand market on cards they don't even produce any more. If I were WotC, I would rather keep the people happy that have spent thousands of dollars on out of print cards both new and secondhand instead of reprinting any card that gets "expensive". People who paid a lot of money for a card don't want to see the value cut in half because of a reprint. I'm just trying to make people see the other side of the coin here. Not everybody is in the boat of "I can't afford Goyf/shocklands so reprint them." Many people are in the boat of "I spent a TON of money on Goyfs and shocklands so hopefully they don't reprint them and kill the price."
If you bought Tarmogoyf as an investment expecting it to hold its value on the long term, I'd like to be the first to welcome you to the 21st century: We have cell phones, a new card frame, and no reserved list. Magic is a game first and a collectible second, and if you'd rather people stay out of a format than have your precious precious cardboard devalue, well, then you look a lot like this guy.
If on the other hand you're like a lot of people who bought Tarmogoyf so they could play the damn game, then I realise having Tarmogoyf reprinted hurts, but it's either that, banning him or watching as Modern becomes another Legacy where the only people playing are those who've bought into playing with $80 cards. Your cards aren't worth anything if nobody will play the format they're good for.
And no, this isn't a case of "hate on the most expensive card in the format," this is a case of the format suffering because the most expensive card in it is a staple that almost every deck would do well to play with. Thoughtseize, Cryptic Command, Bob and so on are all cards that 1. Don't cost anywhere near as much as Tarmogoyf in the first place (The most expensive one is Bob, who costs half of what Tarmogoyf goes for) 2. Don't have to be run in all decks, 3. Don't have to be run at all really. Thoughtseize is expensive more because of its history than anything, as Inquisition of Kozilek and Duress replace it in many decks. Cryptic Command isn't actually that expensive in the first place, and many decks that run it don't want four. Bob is probably the closest thing to Tarmogoyf, and he's nowhere near as ubiquitous or necessary.