So you gain 2 1 CMC removal spells and kcommand, but you're going to lose extra life to your manabase and wont have mainboard brutality. I'm not sure it's worth it? I think it is probably close. Grim lavamancer and better manlands are a real gain though. And the reach can be valuable against decks you need to kill quickly.
Today I took out the dark confidants. They are good but they wanne winn fast, and tracker wanne winn late. So after 4 trackers I added 3 grim flayers and 2 coursers of khrpohix for some card advantage. Let me tell you having courser and grim flayer in play at the same time fels just great.
Also, good gravyeard synergi.
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Between MTGO and SCG, we have a few high-performing lists to serve as a BGx baseline going into the post Trophy world. Here are some themes:
3-4 Trophy: many of us suspected this was the right number but the recent lists confirm it. Trophy is just a valuable, high-performing addition to the deck.
Decay more prevalent than Pulse: there is a slight preference towards Pulse over Decay, with most BGx players going with the singletons Pulse in SB or MD. Some do still run Decay, but it's a minority.
BG Rock over Abzan: with the notable exception of Fallleaf's Abzan Traverse, BG Rock appears to be the early frontrunner over Abzan. This suggests Souls and bomb SB cards may be less viable than a painless, simple manabase.
Tron hate in SB: we're still seeing specialized hate in the SB even with MD Trophy x4. This includes up to 3 Fulm Mage and 3 Sphere.
I am unsure what the best creature configuration in BG currently is.
Has the 4 Tracker/2 Tasigur configuration become mainstream or are people still toying around with Kalitas?
I am currently leaning towards 3 Ooze, 4 Goyf, 4 Tracker, 1 Kalitas, 1 Tasigur, mainly because I really like Kalitas in the current meta, but then again, I haven't been playing with Rock for several months.
I think also that 3-4 trophies are the numbers you wanna be. I am gonna say GB Rock seems to lean more towards 4 copies wheras Jund leans more towards 3 copies. And I think this makes sense. Abzan is really the weakest version right now, especially since Anger of the Gods from Jund and the less painful manabase of rock are more relevant than a couple of souls. I think we can live without Stony. So its down to Rock and Jund for me personally.
Concerning Rock, I like the trackers, I think they are pretty stock now. The question for me is, whether we want Bob in addition or run Tasigurs. Also Nissa has been fantastic for grindy matchups, I also like her in Jund right now. I would play 1 copy in the side now.
My creature suite is a bit up in the air, but I still like something like:
4 Goyf
3 Bob
3 Ooze
4 Tracker
1 Kalitas
Or something similar. But tasigur is also appealing. Grim Flayer is another option, but I think I'd rather play Tasigurs or Bobs.
In my opinion the rock manabase are sometimes a bit too greedy. Maybe people forget it, but FoR does not really count as a coloured manasource in the early game. I think only a 25 landbase can run 4 FoR. A 24 landbase should only run 3 FoR.
4 Blooming, 4 Verdant, 2 Tomb, 4 Swamp and 2 Forest are fixed. So in order to get up to 18 black sources, one would need at least 4 Quagmire or run more black fetchlands. Running more than 2 Treetops seems overkill also. There is of course the option of Twilight Mire but I think since the Rock wants to run a couple of Damping Spheres, mire is just a nonbo and also very awkward with FoR in the opening hand.
I personally am opting for the folowing manabase (24 lands):
I think the 4 Tracker/2 Tasigur configuration is people copying Jeff Hoogland's list, which he's been streaming to a reasonable amount of success. The 3 Brutalities in the main and no Dark Confidant basically makes it pre-boarded for the creature matchups, which is a solid place to be. I think his list struggles a bit against Celestial Colonnade decks though, because it's a little less threat dense. His post-board configuration for the B/G/x mirror also doesn't look great on paper. Given the general MTGO metagame, with that in mind it doesn't strike me as surprising that this type of configuration is doing well.
I've been really torn on Kalitas, I'm still running a 1/1 split between the main and sideboard but I've been getting closer and closer to cutting them. He's so great when he's great, but he's just so bad when he's not, and I've probably lost more games with him in my hand at this point than I've won because of him. The fact that Spirits, Humans, and Hardened Scales all have evasion on some of their best creatures makes him feel really dumb sometimes, too. It's too bad Ishkanah, Grafwidow is just a little too hard to make work in normal B/G, because she's pretty much what I'd want out of a big, bomb creature against those decks.
I'm really loathe to cut Confidant entirely because it's backbreaking to resolve on turns 2/3 against U/W Control, still great against decks not trying to kill you on turn 4, and I'm concerned about not being able to deploy threats in a timely mannger, so right now I'm trying 4 Goyf/3 Confidant/3 Ooze/4 Tracker/1 Kalitas. I'm also running 3 Brutalities in the sideboard to have a clean swap with Confidant in the matchups where he's bad.
@ Flying Delver, have you thought about Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth as land 25? I really like the card in Rock's manabase.
Its an option, but you don't increase your green sources by that. In the 24 landbase you have 17 green sources, which is honestly too few if you want to run someting like Finks in the SB. Without it its fine though.
I think the 4 Tracker/2 Tasigur configuration is people copying Jeff Hoogland's list, which he's been streaming to a reasonable amount of success. The 3 Brutalities in the main and no Dark Confidant basically makes it pre-boarded for the creature matchups, which is a solid place to be. I think his list struggles a bit against Celestial Colonnade decks though, because it's a little less threat dense. His post-board configuration for the B/G/x mirror also doesn't look great on paper. Given the general MTGO metagame, with that in mind it doesn't strike me as surprising that this type of configuration is doing well.
I've noticed the same, and just personally I've been running a 60 that's very similar to his, alongside a 15 that's radically different. It feels great to--as you say--be pre-boarded against creature decks, while still having a pile of cards to bring in for those matchups, as well as for BGx mirrors, where his build is decidedly lacking.
I truly don't think we have to give up much in order to be well-configured against creatures and midrange, either. We're already looking pretty good against most combo decks; another discard spell or two goes quite a long way, coupled with the fact that a Spellbomb/Extraction split covers us well against graveyard decks while spilling over into frequent use against combo. 1-2 additional discard effects also help enormously against control; add in a narrow hoser like Choke and 1-2 Planeswalkers, and that should be sufficient tech against the blue mages.
The most significant things I've given up to be strongly positioned against go-wide and midrange are the Damping Spheres. What are peoples' experiences with this card post-Trophy? How highly do you all rate the effect? I'm a little low on it right now...combo decks aren't an issue for me, and between 4 Field and 4 Trophy (plus an Extraction or two), Tron is usually on the hardcast plan against me anyway, so Sphere offers yet more redundancy in terms of keeping them off Tron--which is fine, but my thinking is just that I'd rather be deploying a threat on T2. Any thoughts here?
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I am unsure what the best creature configuration in BG currently is.
Has the 4 Tracker/2 Tasigur configuration become mainstream or are people still toying around with Kalitas?
I am currently leaning towards 3 Ooze, 4 Goyf, 4 Tracker, 1 Kalitas, 1 Tasigur, mainly because I really like Kalitas in the current meta, but then again, I haven't been playing with Rock for several months.
Super interesting list XOPYC. I'm a big fan of grindy loam strategies and am sad that there haven't been any good ones in modern for the last couple of years. What's up with 0 manlands?
Very interesting idea for grindy matchups indeed. But I think Loam seems more of a SB card for me, since there are a lot of matchups where its quite bad. But I really like the idea. Some manlands should also be played imo, I definitely second that, since Loam rebuying those represents in theory endless threats.
I have enjoyed her as a one of in my G/B rock list. Her plus ability works well with trackers. It could just be my desire to finally have a modern playable Vraska, but she seems good.
I sleeved the deck up the deck posted by XOPYC this morning and intend on playing it this Friday. I like the idea of land destruction/control that sets the standard build apart from the rest. I will be goldfishing it for the next few days... in the meantime, if you have any tips for playing the deck, please let me know. Thanks.
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He raged at the world, at his family, at his life. But mostly he just raged.
Modern: BG Rock, Grixis Control, UW Control
Commander: Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
"Win or lose, naught to choose - all men are equal when their memory fades. No one knows, friends or foes, if Valhalla lies beyond the grave." - Motörhead “Deaf Forever”
What do you think about 24 vs 25 lands in Tracker's BG Rock (without Dark Confidant)?
I've been testing this list quite a bit and really like it so far but I have one problem which is mentioned above. On the one hand I feel 25 along with Tracker is where you want to be with this list but on the other side I'm flooded quite a bit. This is fine if you have Tracker in the play since he will turn lands into new cards and grow himself while doing this but it becomes really bad if you don't. 25 lands is a lot and if you play it you probably have to accept that you are more likely to flood than most other decks but it still feels bad and frustrating when it happens. It's even more evident when you're at top deck mode and need to draw something (either a threat or an answer to opponent's threat. At this you're more likely to draw a land than your opponent most of the time which doesn't feel good.
With Tracker in play (some) lands are good and playing more of them will make him better. I still feel that I drew more of them than I want even with Tracker in the play. Sometimes I just keep drawing lands into lands. If these are creature lands and I don't need anything specific (like removal) this might still be ok but otherwise it might not be enough even with Tracker.
Todd Stevens did a deck with 2 courser of chruphix and 2 ooze as lifegain. 3 or 4 dark confidant and 4 trackers. 25 lands.
Courser and dark confidant has some synergy and some unsynergy. (You are garanteed getting damage.)
Courser and Tracker both like 25 lands. Courser is GREAT with grim flayer. Both in the gravyeard and on the battlefield.
If you need 'more' trackers you can play traverse to get them.
PS: Has any body tryed whip of erebos?
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XOPIC what does the life from the loam do? Ravens crime is a one of. You have some sac lands, are that was it os there for? Dredging to fuel the gravyeard? I am confused.
Hqve you tested with collective brutalaty to get it into the gravyeard? Also scales well with fueling the brutalaty.
Secrets of the maeusoleum also works well in that shell and allows you to find ravens crime.
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Life from the Loam is a grindy card which buys back FoR, Ghost Quarter and cycle lands to either draw more into the deck, destroy opposing lands or discard cards with raven's crime potentially.
i often had problems against aggro decks like Humans because of the clunky hands with lot of 3cmc spells (Tracker, Liliana etc.)
I play my Bobs because of the early game which can be very tough if you don't draw your removal spells early.. in BG you don't have Bolts or Path beside Push, so your hand can be very clunky sometimes.. afterwards Tracker does his thing.. another good thing is that you don't miss your land drops which can be very important because of Scavenging Ooze, which helps you to come back after you got hit for some damage in the first few turns..
This problem is one of the consequences when people are simply replacing bob with tracker. It nicely shows that those cards aren't the same. I totally agree with that.
Also, good gravyeard synergi.
3-4 Trophy: many of us suspected this was the right number but the recent lists confirm it. Trophy is just a valuable, high-performing addition to the deck.
Decay more prevalent than Pulse: there is a slight preference towards Pulse over Decay, with most BGx players going with the singletons Pulse in SB or MD. Some do still run Decay, but it's a minority.
BG Rock over Abzan: with the notable exception of Fallleaf's Abzan Traverse, BG Rock appears to be the early frontrunner over Abzan. This suggests Souls and bomb SB cards may be less viable than a painless, simple manabase.
Tron hate in SB: we're still seeing specialized hate in the SB even with MD Trophy x4. This includes up to 3 Fulm Mage and 3 Sphere.
What other takeaways have you all noticed?
Has the 4 Tracker/2 Tasigur configuration become mainstream or are people still toying around with Kalitas?
I am currently leaning towards 3 Ooze, 4 Goyf, 4 Tracker, 1 Kalitas, 1 Tasigur, mainly because I really like Kalitas in the current meta, but then again, I haven't been playing with Rock for several months.
Concerning Rock, I like the trackers, I think they are pretty stock now. The question for me is, whether we want Bob in addition or run Tasigurs. Also Nissa has been fantastic for grindy matchups, I also like her in Jund right now. I would play 1 copy in the side now.
My creature suite is a bit up in the air, but I still like something like:
4 Goyf
3 Bob
3 Ooze
4 Tracker
1 Kalitas
Or something similar. But tasigur is also appealing. Grim Flayer is another option, but I think I'd rather play Tasigurs or Bobs.
In my opinion the rock manabase are sometimes a bit too greedy. Maybe people forget it, but FoR does not really count as a coloured manasource in the early game. I think only a 25 landbase can run 4 FoR. A 24 landbase should only run 3 FoR.
4 Blooming, 4 Verdant, 2 Tomb, 4 Swamp and 2 Forest are fixed. So in order to get up to 18 black sources, one would need at least 4 Quagmire or run more black fetchlands. Running more than 2 Treetops seems overkill also. There is of course the option of Twilight Mire but I think since the Rock wants to run a couple of Damping Spheres, mire is just a nonbo and also very awkward with FoR in the opening hand.
I personally am opting for the folowing manabase (24 lands):
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Hissing Quagmire
3 Field of Ruin
1 Treetop Village
The 25th land would be the third Quagmire for me personally.
I've been really torn on Kalitas, I'm still running a 1/1 split between the main and sideboard but I've been getting closer and closer to cutting them. He's so great when he's great, but he's just so bad when he's not, and I've probably lost more games with him in my hand at this point than I've won because of him. The fact that Spirits, Humans, and Hardened Scales all have evasion on some of their best creatures makes him feel really dumb sometimes, too. It's too bad Ishkanah, Grafwidow is just a little too hard to make work in normal B/G, because she's pretty much what I'd want out of a big, bomb creature against those decks.
I'm really loathe to cut Confidant entirely because it's backbreaking to resolve on turns 2/3 against U/W Control, still great against decks not trying to kill you on turn 4, and I'm concerned about not being able to deploy threats in a timely mannger, so right now I'm trying 4 Goyf/3 Confidant/3 Ooze/4 Tracker/1 Kalitas. I'm also running 3 Brutalities in the sideboard to have a clean swap with Confidant in the matchups where he's bad.
Its an option, but you don't increase your green sources by that. In the 24 landbase you have 17 green sources, which is honestly too few if you want to run someting like Finks in the SB. Without it its fine though.
I've noticed the same, and just personally I've been running a 60 that's very similar to his, alongside a 15 that's radically different. It feels great to--as you say--be pre-boarded against creature decks, while still having a pile of cards to bring in for those matchups, as well as for BGx mirrors, where his build is decidedly lacking.
I truly don't think we have to give up much in order to be well-configured against creatures and midrange, either. We're already looking pretty good against most combo decks; another discard spell or two goes quite a long way, coupled with the fact that a Spellbomb/Extraction split covers us well against graveyard decks while spilling over into frequent use against combo. 1-2 additional discard effects also help enormously against control; add in a narrow hoser like Choke and 1-2 Planeswalkers, and that should be sufficient tech against the blue mages.
The most significant things I've given up to be strongly positioned against go-wide and midrange are the Damping Spheres. What are peoples' experiences with this card post-Trophy? How highly do you all rate the effect? I'm a little low on it right now...combo decks aren't an issue for me, and between 4 Field and 4 Trophy (plus an Extraction or two), Tron is usually on the hardcast plan against me anyway, so Sphere offers yet more redundancy in terms of keeping them off Tron--which is fine, but my thinking is just that I'd rather be deploying a threat on T2. Any thoughts here?
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Mostly. . .
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I have enjoyed her as a one of in my G/B rock list. Her plus ability works well with trackers. It could just be my desire to finally have a modern playable Vraska, but she seems good.
Modern: BG Rock, Grixis Control, UW Control
Commander: Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
"Win or lose, naught to choose - all men are equal when their memory fades. No one knows, friends or foes, if Valhalla lies beyond the grave." - Motörhead “Deaf Forever”
Todd Stevens did a deck with 2 courser of chruphix and 2 ooze as lifegain. 3 or 4 dark confidant and 4 trackers. 25 lands.
Courser and dark confidant has some synergy and some unsynergy. (You are garanteed getting damage.)
Courser and Tracker both like 25 lands. Courser is GREAT with grim flayer. Both in the gravyeard and on the battlefield.
If you need 'more' trackers you can play traverse to get them.
PS: Has any body tryed whip of erebos?
Hqve you tested with collective brutalaty to get it into the gravyeard? Also scales well with fueling the brutalaty.
Secrets of the maeusoleum also works well in that shell and allows you to find ravens crime.
This problem is one of the consequences when people are simply replacing bob with tracker. It nicely shows that those cards aren't the same. I totally agree with that.