I think it helps Abzan more than Jund but that is mostly because Jund had plenty of options for killing anything and some degree of diversity is needed with Meddling Mage out and about as Humans are Tier 1.
I think overall Junk will be the best GBx deck now. At least in the foreseeable future. Souls and Stony are premium cards to have right now, and I feel a reid duke approach is the best to follow, since it also means we get to run many basics and dont get too colour screwed off opposing trophies.
So I would play a GB deck splashing white for Souls and Stony. The question is how to balance out the numbers. I am currently on this:
The mirror is right now not relevant at all actually. This might surely change, but from the current point of view, a decay is very bad.
It's going to be more relevant once Assassin's Trophy releases, even if it's just for a few weeks. There was a ton of Jund everywhere when BBE was unbanned, people just like playing B/G/x. This forum consistently undervalues cards (Grim Flayer, Collective Brutality, and Lily the Last Hope as recent examples) because people look at cards in a vacuum.
Decay is a problem right now because there's a bunch of relevant stuff that it doesn't hit. That problem is alleviated once we have access to Assassin's Trophy, which will give us 3-4 maindeck answers to anything. When you have that many answers to anything, your narrower answers get the opportunity to line up better, and it's easier to work within Abrupt Decay's CMC restriction. I'm not saying any of this to advocate for playing Abrupt Decay in an Assassin's Trophy world (jury's still out on that), but within that context Vraska's -3 is more likely to find a target, provided you've sequenced your removal to maximize that chance. I think that having that effect as a repeatable option is also incredibly good, the same way that getting multiple uses out of LotV's -2 can snowball a game.
I think that you can actually bring Vraska in against any midrange or prison deck that plays a lot of permanents, I was using the B/G/x mirror as an example because I think we'll be playing a lot of them this fall.
regarding traverse list I think hex parasite has great uses now due to harden scales affinity. also double up as planeswalker removal. ben friedman used it to won a ptq with mono white emeria. we could use it as a traverse target too as well. he also didn't use kataki. is easy to play around kataki when you're battling harden scales affinity. they can just dump all counters on 2 creatures and only pay 2 mana.
I think overall Junk will be the best GBx deck now. At least in the foreseeable future. Souls and Stony are premium cards to have right now, and I feel a reid duke approach is the best to follow, since it also means we get to run many basics and dont get too colour screwed off opposing trophies.
So I would play a GB deck splashing white for Souls and Stony. The question is how to balance out the numbers. I am currently on this:
willy edel is excited about the changes too as well. he said we can run narrow hate now like alpine moon or rune halo to fight worst matchups like valakut. these decks will pop up when abzan becomes tier deck.
Decay is a problem right now because there's a bunch of relevant stuff that it doesn't hit. That problem is alleviated once we have access to Assassin's Trophy, which will give us 3-4 maindeck answers to anything. When you have that many answers to anything, your narrower answers get the opportunity to line up better, and it's easier to work within Abrupt Decay's CMC restriction. I'm not saying any of this to advocate for playing Abrupt Decay in an Assassin's Trophy world (jury's still out on that), but within that context Vraska's -3 is more likely to find a target, provided you've sequenced your removal to maximize that chance. I think that having that effect as a repeatable option is also incredibly good, the same way that getting multiple uses out of LotV's -2 can snowball a game.
Now we can't know if a decay naturally will have more targets in the future since due to trophy the meta might shift so that other cards or other decks will be played. If your argument was directed that way, then sure, decay will in the future maybe hit more targets. But you explain that simply the presence of trophy makes a decay have more targets. How is that gonna work? How should I understand that? Do you imply meta changes by that? Now because if we dont imply a metachange why would there be more targets if we have the same opposing decks? Just because we can answer the cards we cant answer now with decay doesn't imply that decay will then find other targets more likely. That doesn't make quite sense. But I am assuming you are implying a metachange, despite your explaination suggesting otherwise.
Interesting sideboard card... could even work as a single one-of for Traverse lists.
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
Lingering souls is a good card that helps you generate CA with cards like Brutality and LotV and it's super effective against decks that rely on spot removal like Ux control and midrange. It also helps you chump against aggro decks that go-wide and to not die on the crackback but you don't want to flood on it and have a clunky hand so 3-of in 60 is fine. Souls also do fly where flying is an important piece of text in the meta and you don't want flying to read unblockable against you. Only downside of it is it's slow and is a bad clock against combo and susceptible to gy hate and that's about it. Saying souls isn't good because midrange isn't commonly played is wrong.
5 or 6 pieces of 1 cmc spot removal is ideal so you play a split of push and path to deal with aggro decks like humans on top of trophies that'll be 2 or 3-of. Decay is too conditional and unnecessary at this point.
You're also wrong on abzan not being great against humans because you don't like and don't play efficient removal like path which is phenomenal against Humans.
This
Not sure how we have a bad matchup against humans when we have a deck full of removal and card advantage against a deck all in on creatures. 3 path 2 push 3 throphies (or decays, same thing in this matchup) 1 pulse 4 LotV is more than enough to take care of their big creatures and just trample over the remains. After board we have acess to 2 Damnations on top of that, humans is a fine matchup unless they draw 3 Buglers and have a crazy start out of the gate that we couldn't keep under control.
Souls is awesome for all the mentions above. Having 4 1/1 fliers is a real clock when you top deck it late game. It's just plain better and faster than BBE that hits removal or discard. It's a complete crusher against all midrange and control decks.
The argument of path giving free resources is also interesing. When hollow one is attacking me on turn 2 with 2x 4/4s, I couldn't care less about giving away a free mountain or swamp to my opponent in order to reduce the clock by 3 turns what is Hollow one going to do with extra lands? Nothing great. What is it going to do with a 4/4? Kill you in 3 turns.. And for the mana creatures, if you only have a path as removal in hand, you don't path the bird. Keep it for the creature he is ramping into. Using path incorrectly is why people don't include then in their decks. If you sit on it until you can trade it with an opponent's bomb, that's where you'll understand how great it really is. Pair this badboy up with Assassin's Trophy and they will eventually transform in 2 mana destroy any permanent or 1 mana exile any creature with NO drawbacks. Worst case is "Trade any permanent for a basic land".
I know Reid said his plan is to deny ressources, but I would rather deny all my opponents important cards and leave him with plenty of basics and leftovers like mana dorks and "useless on their own" stuff. We can't afford to have the wrong removal for a permanent because that's where we start trying to fix problems that should never be, such as jamming 4 trackers to draw more cards to try and find Maelstrom pulse to kill a Gurmag angler. I would rather play a Flayer on T2, path the Angler on T3 and get a Grim trigger which is more value than the Tracker will get you, 2 turns faster.
The curve needs to be low, and stay low. The 4 Mana Vraska is good, but costs 4 Mana. Is it as good as JtmS on T4? Is it as good as LotV on T3? I don't think so, therefore I wouldn't consider it as a main deck card.
Hello! I've been working on building into G/B/x over the last few months and have made some good progress, but I wanted to check with the forum to see how you guys would prioritize picking up the missing pieces in trades/buying over my next few pay periods. Unfortunately it ends up being the expensive items... ha!
I still need the following:
1x Tarmogoyf (have 3)
2-3x LOTV (have 1)
2x Verdant Catacombs (have 2)
My gut is telling me that getting 1-2x more LOTVs is probably the way to go. I can tweak the manabase a bit to cover for Catacombs (losing out on some Win %) and sub-in extra threats (Scooze, Trackers, etc.) to sub for the last Goyf. Does this sound like a reasonable approach?
Truths spoken here, though i want to stress that all options are probably be worth trying out. Even the split Decay/Tropy in relation to path.
The new knight will definately replace Reclamation Sage for multiple reasons oviously
Exciting times.
Grabbing LOTVs is the way to go. Can always cheat on the manabase. I would consider grabbing a liliana of the hope (just 1) first if you dont have it yet.
I didn't say our matchup against Humans is bad but only that it's not great which is true. We probably are favored but it's a close one. They can beat you with their disruption and fast clock. It's not an easy matchup as you might think due to all the removal we have and that's what I've been trying to say. So, next time read my post please because I didn't say it's a bad matchup, just that it isn't a great one which is something completely different. With that said I'm not unhappy to face Humans but I would take the matchup seriously and play tight.
Again I didn't say Lingering Souls is a bad card (in general) but that it's bad right now which is not the same. It't not unplayable or anything like that but at least I don't think it's very good. I agree it's fine to decent card against aggro decks although not at its best, it's also good against control in general although worse against UW control because that one doesn't play that much 1 for removal but is built more around board sweepers which Lingering Souls is not (that) good against. However, if BGx decks become more popular due to Assassin's Trophy Lingering Souls becomes a lot better. In my experiences Lingering Souls is by far the best against midrange decks while also being good against control (less so against UW control) and fine against aggro decks. Don't get me wrong I think Lingering Souls is a good card but like I said I don't think it's exactly its time right now.
Concerning Path you can play it if you want but I won't. I've never really like it and although I played with it a lot in the past there was exactly one game or better said one situation I was happy to cast it. Killing opponent's creature is good but giving them a land is not. For me this is not a very efficient removal but whatever as I said play it if you want, I don't mind it. Looking from the other side I was never that said to face Path. Not that I liked it but it was definitely better than Bolt, Terminate, Push or some other removal killing my creature.
I agree that our curve needs to be low. I don't like clunky cards like Siege Rhino, Tasigur or similar. For me the deck always performed much better with lower curve. I see Vraska as a mirror breaker in the sb but I wouldn't play her in the md for the reason mentioned as well as any other 4 or higher drops.
I understand your point of view about not wanting to give lands, but what's your thought on Trophy then? Is giving a land to kill a JtmS OK, but not for exiling a Hollow one? You'll eventually have to face the same kinds of decisions with trophy as you do for path. (Ex: path a Bob vs Trophy a Search for Azcanta).
Another thing is that if you have enough Path/Trophies, opponents soon lack basic lands to fetch just like UW control does with 4 Paths, 4 Field of ruin.
It's not meant to be rude, I just want to challenge your deckbuilding decisions because that's how we all improve.
Re: Path
For me, the most compelling reason to play some Push/Path split/combo is Meddling Mage. Push is one of the best blind names against us, and diversifying our one-drop removal insulates us from this card. That said, I'd be very hesitant to drop down from 4 Pushes. There are just so many targets this hits in the top-tier matches, notably targets that you absolutely do not want to Path. The most notable of these is Hierarch in Infect, Humans, and Bant Spirits, decks that really cash in on the acceleration if we uselessly path a dork. This is why we need that Push suite. But I still want Path in those matches for both secondary removal and to beat Mage. I also want my fun-of MD Path for crap like Titan, Angler, Tasiur, H1, Wurmcoil, Hangarback, etc. This leads me to a 4/1 combo instead of a 3/1 or 3/2 split. I'd also keep 1 Pulse and then go either 3/1 on Trophy/Decay or 4/1 depending on other flex slots. This assumes +1-2 Path and +1-0 Trophy in the SB.
Re: Humans matchup
I sincerely doubt we are favored in this matchup. At best, it's 50/50. Jeskai is only somewhat favored in this matchup at 55-45 and they are packing much more economical removal options plus Snapcaster and Cryptic tapdown. Secret to playing against Humans: you are probably 5%-10% less favorable against Humans than you think you are.
Grabbing LOTVs is the way to go. Can always cheat on the manabase. I would consider grabbing a liliana of the hope (just 1) first if you dont have it yet.
Hello! I've been working on building into G/B/x over the last few months and have made some good progress, but I wanted to check with the forum to see how you guys would prioritize picking up the missing pieces in trades/buying over my next few pay periods. Unfortunately it ends up being the expensive items... ha!
I still need the following:
1x Tarmogoyf (have 3)
2-3x LOTV (have 1)
2x Verdant Catacombs (have 2)
My gut is telling me that getting 1-2x more LOTVs is probably the way to go. I can tweak the manabase a bit to cover for Catacombs (losing out on some Win %) and sub-in extra threats (Scooze, Trackers, etc.) to sub for the last Goyf. Does this sound like a reasonable approach?
Focus on buying goyfs, Catacombs and then LoTV. Currently she is not at her best and I would only run 3 copies for starters. Goyf is more important right now. Agree on LtLH, I think she is more quite powerful right now, and often I like her more than LoTV.
On Path and Trophy, at least you can say the more you play the better they get overall. So having more cards of that effect makes having more of them not too bad, unless being in the early gam. If we play both Path and trophy, it could very well be that these cards are the only removals we have in the early game which is essentially bad. I really think reid duke will think similar about this and would not go below 4 push. I think he will also probably ditch path all togehter now, and replace them with trophies. I for one will try to play 4 Pushs, 4 trophies and an additional removal spell of a kind. Not sure if its pulse, Cast Down, Path or even just CB, but I am not high on having more than 1 Path in the deck now with trophy being around. I think having too many source of giving opponents lands overall weakens our early game against aggro decks too much. Therefore I would be careful with that.
Thanks for the perspective, FlyingDeliver! I have one LtLH already, so perhaps I shoot for a 2-2 split of her and LoTV so I can prioritize the goyf as you mentioned. A bit of a hybridized approach.
You answered it yourself:
The mirror is right now not relevant at all actually. This might surely change, but from the current point of view, a decay is very bad.
So I would play a GB deck splashing white for Souls and Stony. The question is how to balance out the numbers. I am currently on this:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Treetop Village
1 Shambling Vent
1 Twilight Mire
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tireless Tracker
Noncreature Spells [23]
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
4 Assassin's Trophy
1 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
SB is pretty up in the air for me, but I probably want 2 Stony and a second LtLH in there.
It's going to be more relevant once Assassin's Trophy releases, even if it's just for a few weeks. There was a ton of Jund everywhere when BBE was unbanned, people just like playing B/G/x. This forum consistently undervalues cards (Grim Flayer, Collective Brutality, and Lily the Last Hope as recent examples) because people look at cards in a vacuum.
Decay is a problem right now because there's a bunch of relevant stuff that it doesn't hit. That problem is alleviated once we have access to Assassin's Trophy, which will give us 3-4 maindeck answers to anything. When you have that many answers to anything, your narrower answers get the opportunity to line up better, and it's easier to work within Abrupt Decay's CMC restriction. I'm not saying any of this to advocate for playing Abrupt Decay in an Assassin's Trophy world (jury's still out on that), but within that context Vraska's -3 is more likely to find a target, provided you've sequenced your removal to maximize that chance. I think that having that effect as a repeatable option is also incredibly good, the same way that getting multiple uses out of LotV's -2 can snowball a game.
I think that you can actually bring Vraska in against any midrange or prison deck that plays a lot of permanents, I was using the B/G/x mirror as an example because I think we'll be playing a lot of them this fall.
regarding traverse list I think hex parasite has great uses now due to harden scales affinity. also double up as planeswalker removal. ben friedman used it to won a ptq with mono white emeria. we could use it as a traverse target too as well. he also didn't use kataki. is easy to play around kataki when you're battling harden scales affinity. they can just dump all counters on 2 creatures and only pay 2 mana.
https://twitter.com/bazardebagda?lang=en
willy edel is excited about the changes too as well. he said we can run narrow hate now like alpine moon or rune halo to fight worst matchups like valakut. these decks will pop up when abzan becomes tier deck.
Now we can't know if a decay naturally will have more targets in the future since due to trophy the meta might shift so that other cards or other decks will be played. If your argument was directed that way, then sure, decay will in the future maybe hit more targets. But you explain that simply the presence of trophy makes a decay have more targets. How is that gonna work? How should I understand that? Do you imply meta changes by that? Now because if we dont imply a metachange why would there be more targets if we have the same opposing decks? Just because we can answer the cards we cant answer now with decay doesn't imply that decay will then find other targets more likely. That doesn't make quite sense. But I am assuming you are implying a metachange, despite your explaination suggesting otherwise.
Interesting sideboard card... could even work as a single one-of for Traverse lists.
this is better than reclamation sage. damn
This is a card Knights Tribal has been waiting for. Trouble is, there are a couple more it's still waiting for.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
This
Not sure how we have a bad matchup against humans when we have a deck full of removal and card advantage against a deck all in on creatures. 3 path 2 push 3 throphies (or decays, same thing in this matchup) 1 pulse 4 LotV is more than enough to take care of their big creatures and just trample over the remains. After board we have acess to 2 Damnations on top of that, humans is a fine matchup unless they draw 3 Buglers and have a crazy start out of the gate that we couldn't keep under control.
Souls is awesome for all the mentions above. Having 4 1/1 fliers is a real clock when you top deck it late game. It's just plain better and faster than BBE that hits removal or discard. It's a complete crusher against all midrange and control decks.
The argument of path giving free resources is also interesing. When hollow one is attacking me on turn 2 with 2x 4/4s, I couldn't care less about giving away a free mountain or swamp to my opponent in order to reduce the clock by 3 turns what is Hollow one going to do with extra lands? Nothing great. What is it going to do with a 4/4? Kill you in 3 turns.. And for the mana creatures, if you only have a path as removal in hand, you don't path the bird. Keep it for the creature he is ramping into. Using path incorrectly is why people don't include then in their decks. If you sit on it until you can trade it with an opponent's bomb, that's where you'll understand how great it really is. Pair this badboy up with Assassin's Trophy and they will eventually transform in 2 mana destroy any permanent or 1 mana exile any creature with NO drawbacks. Worst case is "Trade any permanent for a basic land".
I know Reid said his plan is to deny ressources, but I would rather deny all my opponents important cards and leave him with plenty of basics and leftovers like mana dorks and "useless on their own" stuff. We can't afford to have the wrong removal for a permanent because that's where we start trying to fix problems that should never be, such as jamming 4 trackers to draw more cards to try and find Maelstrom pulse to kill a Gurmag angler. I would rather play a Flayer on T2, path the Angler on T3 and get a Grim trigger which is more value than the Tracker will get you, 2 turns faster.
The curve needs to be low, and stay low. The 4 Mana Vraska is good, but costs 4 Mana. Is it as good as JtmS on T4? Is it as good as LotV on T3? I don't think so, therefore I wouldn't consider it as a main deck card.
BGW - Abzan
Legacy
BG - BG Lands
I still need the following:
1x Tarmogoyf (have 3)
2-3x LOTV (have 1)
2x Verdant Catacombs (have 2)
My gut is telling me that getting 1-2x more LOTVs is probably the way to go. I can tweak the manabase a bit to cover for Catacombs (losing out on some Win %) and sub-in extra threats (Scooze, Trackers, etc.) to sub for the last Goyf. Does this sound like a reasonable approach?
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
The new knight will definately replace Reclamation Sage for multiple reasons oviously
Exciting times.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW
I understand your point of view about not wanting to give lands, but what's your thought on Trophy then? Is giving a land to kill a JtmS OK, but not for exiling a Hollow one? You'll eventually have to face the same kinds of decisions with trophy as you do for path. (Ex: path a Bob vs Trophy a Search for Azcanta).
Another thing is that if you have enough Path/Trophies, opponents soon lack basic lands to fetch just like UW control does with 4 Paths, 4 Field of ruin.
It's not meant to be rude, I just want to challenge your deckbuilding decisions because that's how we all improve.
BGW - Abzan
Legacy
BG - BG Lands
For me, the most compelling reason to play some Push/Path split/combo is Meddling Mage. Push is one of the best blind names against us, and diversifying our one-drop removal insulates us from this card. That said, I'd be very hesitant to drop down from 4 Pushes. There are just so many targets this hits in the top-tier matches, notably targets that you absolutely do not want to Path. The most notable of these is Hierarch in Infect, Humans, and Bant Spirits, decks that really cash in on the acceleration if we uselessly path a dork. This is why we need that Push suite. But I still want Path in those matches for both secondary removal and to beat Mage. I also want my fun-of MD Path for crap like Titan, Angler, Tasiur, H1, Wurmcoil, Hangarback, etc. This leads me to a 4/1 combo instead of a 3/1 or 3/2 split. I'd also keep 1 Pulse and then go either 3/1 on Trophy/Decay or 4/1 depending on other flex slots. This assumes +1-2 Path and +1-0 Trophy in the SB.
Re: Humans matchup
I sincerely doubt we are favored in this matchup. At best, it's 50/50. Jeskai is only somewhat favored in this matchup at 55-45 and they are packing much more economical removal options plus Snapcaster and Cryptic tapdown. Secret to playing against Humans: you are probably 5%-10% less favorable against Humans than you think you are.
Focus on buying goyfs, Catacombs and then LoTV. Currently she is not at her best and I would only run 3 copies for starters. Goyf is more important right now. Agree on LtLH, I think she is more quite powerful right now, and often I like her more than LoTV.
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW