Has anyone tried playing Abzan with horizon canopies? A land that makes mana early and helps prevent flood later seems exactly what BGx wants. I cant be the only one that has thought of this, yes?
In general, I'm surprised by the complete lack of abzan showing for the past year or so. Path to exile seems especially well positioned right now. What do you guys think is holding the archetype back?
A land (Horizon Canopy) that deals you damage every time you use it seems bad to me. You run manlands to try to mitigate flood - also it is, in my experience, rarely flooding that you looses you the game.
A land (Horizon Canopy) that deals you damage every time you use it seems bad to me. You run manlands to try to mitigate flood - also it is, in my experience, rarely flooding that you looses you the game.
Indeed, the idea of Horizon canopy is very good but at the end of the day, we don't really lack grindy cards or flood mitigation, but a way to keep our life total higher, especially if you play Bob.
Another reason is because with 3-4 Treetops, playing a deck with 6x B discard, 5x xBB planeswalkers is very taxing on the black mana sources.
If you want to try a Horizon canopy, i'd try and replace a non-black producing man-land
I think Abzan is really bad now so I'm not surprised that it doesn't put up results.
White gives you access to Lingering Souls, Path to Exile and Stony Silence. I'm not a fan of Path and if I played Abzan I would go with Reid's Pathless version. Stony Silence is good but I don't think it's worth to play Abzan just because of that. With this said it comes mostly down to Lingering Souls which isn't good card at the moment. This means that if you play Abzan you basically play Rock with worse, more painful manabase so it's better to go with straight BG at this point. If you want to splash a color I think red is superior to white. Red gives you Bolt, Anger of the Gods and BBE and more. I think that at least these three mentioned cards are better than anything white can offer you at the moment.
I said right after that Trophy was spoiled that BG Rock or Jund will be the best BGx deck moving forward because this makes the most sense to me according to what I sad above.
Abzan is at its best when metagame is grindy with lots of midrange and most control decks. Right now these decks aren't popular enough. If this changes in the future and BGx becomes better and more popular then I can see Abzan becoming better choice. Until then I think Jund and Rock are just better options if you want to play BGx.
By having long posts that say Jund and Rock are strictly better than Abzan in this thread, maybe you should be posting elsewhere. I read it as an attempt to kill conversation, constructive comments.
If lingering souls are bad in the current meta, maybe we should be playing 2 Timely Reinforcements instead of 3 Souls and use the extra slot for something? Maybe we should try and fit in Traverse the Ulvenwald with a Spikefeeder/Archangel of Thune combo? And also, saying that Lingering souls is bad in thd current meta always gets me fired up. Basically, Souls gives us free wins against BGx and is the reason the UW control matchup changes from good to very favoured. The rest of the time, it's an excellent card to slow agressive decks until a Scooze can take over a game or pitch to LotV discard without drawback. Bascially, by playing BG they have just been replaced with more Trackers which is a better but slower card advantage engine that is susceptible to targeted removal and can't be pitched to LotV +1.
In Abzan, Siege Rhino and Shambling vents are other things that gets some life gain when you need it, making Abzan the best of BGx to control its life total, thus the 4 Bob inclusion that the other decks are trying to get away from. A T2 Bob unanswered is pretty much game for a very wide portion of the meta.
I don't get how path to Exile is bad in a meta filled with Spirits and Humans that boost up to 4-5-6 power creatures very rapidly but Bolt is actually a Pro to play Jund. There's also those T1 Hollow-ones that show up where Abzan is almost certain to be able to deal with.
Abzan is definately the best "rogue" deck that at the moment. I'm honestly suprised Reid Duke hasn't made it his deck of choice for the last GP.
I think this is a very fair comment. I still play abzan and do ok with it. However if I was going to a big modern tourney I would look to sleeve up BG Rock. I think it is very and streamlined. I have been looking to get the cards for this deck and arent many away.
I play 3 scooze, 2 shambling vent, 4 knight, 2 courser, 2 varaska queens for my life gain package main board. This allows me to play 2 bitterblossom and 1 bloodfast too. I play trackers over bobs so the life gain doesn’t just even out but tends to pull me ahead. I’ve really been liking abzan however I’m on 0 lotv now with only 3 souls. I actually really like path right now because with trophy the downside has gotten much smaller. I feel push is less useful these days too. Few decks run that many basics so that helps with path. Not running lotv helps my mana base a lot too and I actually do run 2 canapoy. I realize my choices are odd but I feel like I’m able to have amazing sb plans verse almost everything.
Oh and pulse of Murasa in the board has been great too.
@Ayiluss
Of course I always view Knight of Autumn as versatile card, just hoping FlyingDelver will add it at Lifegain Category and Destruction Category.
@KTROJAN
That's so many Lifegain will make sure that you don't have any difficulties against Burn and Aggro while also good vs Grind Deck. I always think that 4 KoA is bit too many but i can see that it's possible to play full set MD. Knight of Autumn is seriously underrated card, this card is one of my reason looking back for Abzan due to it's functions well against so many Deck. Good luck with the your Abzan deck !
Btw I want to ask you guys :
1) Can Tireless Tracker replacing Lingering Souls MD and will it do better job than Souls ?
2) With Knight of Autumn, Trophy and sometimes Maelstrom Pulse with Abrupt Decay in MD, is it still necessary to add Stony silence in SB ? I ask this since Abzan had more ways to deal with Artifact and Enhancement better than any other of BGx variant.
Old school (kinda) Junk list 5-0’d a Modern League recently. I dunno, if I’m playing 3x Siege Rhino I feel like I want to play him turn-3 à la Noble Hierarch, but I’m guessing they just wanted to draw straight gas off the top instead of top-decking a Hierarch on turn-6 when you’re hellbent and need to find a Path or a Lili or something substantial.
I like the 6x copies of Goyf by way of 2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang. I’d be half tempted to run a single Doran, the Siege Tower just because of all the 4/5’s and */*+1’s, and also because there’s no Bob at 2/1 or Tracker at 3/2.
The removal suite is interesting. Wide coverage. 3x Path, 3x Decay, and 1x Pulse, with 1x Path and 1x Trophy in the SB, and 2x Damnation for the sweeps. I still like Settle the Wreckage right now though. I guess it’d be kind of an obvious play though as this deck isn’t doing much else on the opponent’s turn, especially at 4cmc.
Painful Truths is an interesting card for the grindy MU’s. I play it in EDH but don’t see it much in Modern. Seems decent, actually.
Thoughts?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
To Piney : That list definitely is bit risky, using all CMC 1 to disrupt opponent hand while clearing the coast using PTE,then aiming for Top deck mode. The plan is good but without CA source i don't know if it safe to do that. For me Draw engine not only provide us with additional cards but also to dig our deck deeper for answering certain threats. If one doesn't run CA engine then that player should play selection creature like Flayer or playing with cantrips to dig the right card for tight situation. Like many player mention in Jund section that GBx need a way to manipulate the top deck and while playing CA engine.
I felt a bit uncertain about mixing Tasigur with Goyf, Tasigur tends to eat too much graveyard which can hamper goyf power and toughness. In past I've also playing with Tasigur and Goyf but recently i just opt playing another cards instead tasigur.
Removal is quite decent, though I'm waiting Abzan deck which running path and trophy together.
Settle wreckage is another potential sweepers for Abzan but the inability to take all creatures is makes me reluctant to play it while costing double white. Painful truth is another strong for grindy for sure and maybe to certain extent Night whisper.
I got 5-0 in a friendly league today. Matchups were (top to bottom);
Grixis Death shadow
Mono-Green Tron
Infect
UR Moon
Soul Sisters (norin)
I have attached my list as well. I have made the following changes Scavenging Ooze for Grim Flayer. Due to all the GY hate atm flayer isn't that impressive and 3 ooze is very relevant right now. Kalitas is mainly for the GY decks but can be tracker, rhino or some random bomb. Anafenza can either be the third souls or Liliana. Souls has been underwhelming and 4 Liliana has felt like too many. Exile has seems good right now so have 3 path instead of another trophy. Beating tron this league was highly satisfying.
I played the above 5-0 list and also placed 22nd in the most recent modern challenge. I believe the abzan deck is not viable right now unfortunately. I've been trying all sorts of iterations and haven't come to one that is good. Graveyard decks are very difficult to interact with. In addition, we just don't have that many sideboard slots to fight off big mana, graveyard, and also have enough cards for grindy match ups. Hope this insight helps, maybe the next set will shake up modern and strengthen abzan enough. Until then, I am not going to be testing much more abzan.
thanks for stopping by. Interested in the choice of mentor? Is that as you said you trying many things and seeing what sticks?
I agree that Abzan has a tough time at the moment. I have been doing above average but not spectacular. Im interested in grinding and getting better with the deck.
Hopefully the next set has a orzhov goody. Also now holiday/vintage cube has dropped so that will take up much of my MTG time.
I play midrange since extended. After trying all "BGx" styles (jund, abza, the rock, sultai), I tried Abzan again, achieving better results. I guess Abzan is more my style and I feel more comfortable since I know the deck a lot. Obviously, the deck was adapted to the meta (humans, spirits, affinity, dregde). However, I still get cards to face combo / control (damping, thrun, fulminator + surgical)
I dare to say the only advantage of BG is to have a better match against other midrange or bloodmoon decks. In general terms, Abzan is more versatile, since it can be played in "to beat" mode or in more control mode. The only thing that does not convince me is the hissing, but it is the only way to not impact the mana fix.
The configuration can be change: nihil / kalitas / LTLH depending on the meta.
Tracker only seems good in The rock and Sultai, it's very slow for the abzan where you dont have the time to wait to use fetchlands.
PTE is a great solution for the meta and can be used in my own creatures. Tasigur is like the 5th goyf and because of the 9 fecthlands it dont have problems to cast it in 3rd turn.
I tried DC and my conclusion is bad for the meta. LS is still great and it has sinergy with flayers and LTH and CB. It's free win against other midrange (mardu, jund), affinity, shadows, spirits. Only sucks against combos.
To bobjackson : Apologies if my comment somehow pessimistic about your deck configuration. It's just that by playing without draw engine or cards that can filter our draw, I feel that we could be screwed if we cannot continuously draw good cards while we only relying on draw phase.
Concerning about graveyard based deck, i think Abzan can handle it better than other BGx variants. I may suggest mainboarding 2 remorseful cleric, it's make our Game 1 less vulnerable againts graveyard decks while it's not truly dead draw againts the other decks.
@devtin : I like your removal line up, very brave. I may try it if i had chance.
And by the way Thank you @FlyingDelver for updating primer with Knight of Autumn as additional choice !
If i may add little bit we can side board in Knight of Autumn and Kalitas againts RG Valakut since some life gain can save us from Valakut ability.
I hope you will enjoy it! This thread here will be continue being the Abzan primer.
In general, I'm surprised by the complete lack of abzan showing for the past year or so. Path to exile seems especially well positioned right now. What do you guys think is holding the archetype back?
Indeed, the idea of Horizon canopy is very good but at the end of the day, we don't really lack grindy cards or flood mitigation, but a way to keep our life total higher, especially if you play Bob.
Another reason is because with 3-4 Treetops, playing a deck with 6x B discard, 5x xBB planeswalkers is very taxing on the black mana sources.
If you want to try a Horizon canopy, i'd try and replace a non-black producing man-land
By having long posts that say Jund and Rock are strictly better than Abzan in this thread, maybe you should be posting elsewhere. I read it as an attempt to kill conversation, constructive comments.
If lingering souls are bad in the current meta, maybe we should be playing 2 Timely Reinforcements instead of 3 Souls and use the extra slot for something? Maybe we should try and fit in Traverse the Ulvenwald with a Spikefeeder/Archangel of Thune combo? And also, saying that Lingering souls is bad in thd current meta always gets me fired up. Basically, Souls gives us free wins against BGx and is the reason the UW control matchup changes from good to very favoured. The rest of the time, it's an excellent card to slow agressive decks until a Scooze can take over a game or pitch to LotV discard without drawback. Bascially, by playing BG they have just been replaced with more Trackers which is a better but slower card advantage engine that is susceptible to targeted removal and can't be pitched to LotV +1.
In Abzan, Siege Rhino and Shambling vents are other things that gets some life gain when you need it, making Abzan the best of BGx to control its life total, thus the 4 Bob inclusion that the other decks are trying to get away from. A T2 Bob unanswered is pretty much game for a very wide portion of the meta.
I don't get how path to Exile is bad in a meta filled with Spirits and Humans that boost up to 4-5-6 power creatures very rapidly but Bolt is actually a Pro to play Jund. There's also those T1 Hollow-ones that show up where Abzan is almost certain to be able to deal with.
Abzan is definately the best "rogue" deck that at the moment. I'm honestly suprised Reid Duke hasn't made it his deck of choice for the last GP.
BGW - Abzan
Legacy
BG - BG Lands
Oh and pulse of Murasa in the board has been great too.
Of course I always view Knight of Autumn as versatile card, just hoping FlyingDelver will add it at Lifegain Category and Destruction Category.
@KTROJAN
That's so many Lifegain will make sure that you don't have any difficulties against Burn and Aggro while also good vs Grind Deck. I always think that 4 KoA is bit too many but i can see that it's possible to play full set MD. Knight of Autumn is seriously underrated card, this card is one of my reason looking back for Abzan due to it's functions well against so many Deck. Good luck with the your Abzan deck !
Btw I want to ask you guys :
1) Can Tireless Tracker replacing Lingering Souls MD and will it do better job than Souls ?
2) With Knight of Autumn, Trophy and sometimes Maelstrom Pulse with Abrupt Decay in MD, is it still necessary to add Stony silence in SB ? I ask this since Abzan had more ways to deal with Artifact and Enhancement better than any other of BGx variant.
Cheers !
I like the 6x copies of Goyf by way of 2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang. I’d be half tempted to run a single Doran, the Siege Tower just because of all the 4/5’s and */*+1’s, and also because there’s no Bob at 2/1 or Tracker at 3/2.
The removal suite is interesting. Wide coverage. 3x Path, 3x Decay, and 1x Pulse, with 1x Path and 1x Trophy in the SB, and 2x Damnation for the sweeps. I still like Settle the Wreckage right now though. I guess it’d be kind of an obvious play though as this deck isn’t doing much else on the opponent’s turn, especially at 4cmc.
Painful Truths is an interesting card for the grindy MU’s. I play it in EDH but don’t see it much in Modern. Seems decent, actually.
Thoughts?
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I felt a bit uncertain about mixing Tasigur with Goyf, Tasigur tends to eat too much graveyard which can hamper goyf power and toughness. In past I've also playing with Tasigur and Goyf but recently i just opt playing another cards instead tasigur.
Removal is quite decent, though I'm waiting Abzan deck which running path and trophy together.
Settle wreckage is another potential sweepers for Abzan but the inability to take all creatures is makes me reluctant to play it while costing double white. Painful truth is another strong for grindy for sure and maybe to certain extent Night whisper.
Mind posting a link? I couldn’t find the list in goldfish or top8, but I might’ve just overlooked it. I saw some other lists, but not with Mentor.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I got 5-0 in a friendly league today. Matchups were (top to bottom);
Grixis Death shadow
Mono-Green Tron
Infect
UR Moon
Soul Sisters (norin)
I have attached my list as well. I have made the following changes Scavenging Ooze for Grim Flayer. Due to all the GY hate atm flayer isn't that impressive and 3 ooze is very relevant right now. Kalitas is mainly for the GY decks but can be tracker, rhino or some random bomb. Anafenza can either be the third souls or Liliana. Souls has been underwhelming and 4 Liliana has felt like too many. Exile has seems good right now so have 3 path instead of another trophy. Beating tron this league was highly satisfying.
I agree that Abzan has a tough time at the moment. I have been doing above average but not spectacular. Im interested in grinding and getting better with the deck.
Hopefully the next set has a orzhov goody. Also now holiday/vintage cube has dropped so that will take up much of my MTG time.
I dare to say the only advantage of BG is to have a better match against other midrange or bloodmoon decks. In general terms, Abzan is more versatile, since it can be played in "to beat" mode or in more control mode. The only thing that does not convince me is the hissing, but it is the only way to not impact the mana fix.
The configuration can be change: nihil / kalitas / LTLH depending on the meta.
Tracker only seems good in The rock and Sultai, it's very slow for the abzan where you dont have the time to wait to use fetchlands.
PTE is a great solution for the meta and can be used in my own creatures. Tasigur is like the 5th goyf and because of the 9 fecthlands it dont have problems to cast it in 3rd turn.
I tried DC and my conclusion is bad for the meta. LS is still great and it has sinergy with flayers and LTH and CB. It's free win against other midrange (mardu, jund), affinity, shadows, spirits. Only sucks against combos.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1533638#paper
Concerning about graveyard based deck, i think Abzan can handle it better than other BGx variants. I may suggest mainboarding 2 remorseful cleric, it's make our Game 1 less vulnerable againts graveyard decks while it's not truly dead draw againts the other decks.
@devtin : I like your removal line up, very brave. I may try it if i had chance.
And by the way Thank you @FlyingDelver for updating primer with Knight of Autumn as additional choice !
If i may add little bit we can side board in Knight of Autumn and Kalitas againts RG Valakut since some life gain can save us from Valakut ability.
Cheers all !