I tend to keep at least 2 thoughtseizes and also bring in gaddock teeg against any deck featuring CoCo. Abzan traverse is good at disrupting and finding relevant cards for many situations, but we do not grind all that well; we just cannot beat an early resolved CoCo most of the time.
I'd rather take two on my own terms than taking 3+ in the air with some hexproof giving lord or Queller Backup. It's all about efficiency. Same thing with Burn. Never board out TS. Taking Boros charm has net you +2life. Think about it.
Uh I have to intervene here
The classic argument of saving 2 life against Burn with TS by taking Boros Charm. I'll give you my perspective on this by linking the sideboard guide from the primer:
"One of the most common misconceptions involveds around Thoughtseize vs. Burn. Its incredibly bad to leave TS in. But why is that? I often hear people arguing that TS is not as bad against Burn, because you can potentially snatch a Boros Charm or Atarkas Command, effectively gaining 2 life, right? Well, its not that simple.
I look at Burn as being a combo deck, which just has to resolve 6-7 spells in order to win the game. Generally, each spell will do 3 or sometimes 4 dmg to the opponent, so for 20 life --> 7 spells with 3 dmg per spell or 6 spells with two spells dealing 4 dmg are needed. Burn is a very consistant deck (its a critical mass deck). It will more often than not draw the needed spells and just win. Now, when you are playing TS and taking Boros Charm out of the opponent’s hand, you annul the effect of Boros Charm which would have otherwise dealt 4 dmg to your face. But what you also did through this, is effective casting a free Shock on yourself. Combines this with a simple fetch you potentially did prior to this (even if you only fetched for 1) you effectively cast a free Lightning Bolt on yourself. So what did TS actually do for you? Nothing. You took Boros Charm, but bolted you alongside. You gave the opponent 1 of the 7 spells needed to kill you. (And to note, even if you don’t fetch for 1, you effectively cast a combo spell piece on yourself by casting TS, going down to 18 life and the burn player now just needs 6 instead of 7 3-dmg spells) So to conclude, if you TS the Burn player, you take away one spell they have but they simply have to draw one less spell alongside, which is just doing nothing."
So do you still think you are likely to save 2 life?
I like the math in here, it makes sense. To be critical, would it be the same if the hit was Eidolon of the great Revel? Or do we always just take 2dmg for removing it once it lands? And what if you need your removal for Goblin Guide?
Love to hear about a more comprehensive strategy versus burn.
Now concerning the Spirits matchup I am not sure its basically the same thing with TS. Generally I think its not wrong to take out TS. but Spell Queller specifically makes it a little harder.
CoCo is also another moment for spirits decks where they have their shields down and you can cash in your removal. You can either hit a creature with coco on stack or hit what they put on the table with ETB triggers on the stack. Nightmare scenario where they hit double drogskol or a combination of drogskol/image/kira to get a lock is pretty rare.
To me, double Drogskol is not that rare, and even less if you count in Kira. The deck also has lines like T1 Wanderer, T2 Selfless Spirit, T3 Drogskol into T4 CoCo. If your removal doensn't line up, you're in a very bad spot.
Keeping thoughtseizes in doesn't help the deck grind any better, it actually makes it way worse.
I feel trying to hit CoCo with thoughtseize is playing not to lose. Eventho it's a 2-for-1, extra removal instead of thoughtseize can still be cashed in more effectively. Like you can't hit topdecked CoCo with thoughtseize, similiarly, you can't hit CoCo with a topdecked thoughtseize if opponent has enough mana open to cash in CoCo.
CoCo is a high variance card and when it's good, it's really good but you can generally play through it if opponent doesn't hit jackpot and they generally won't since CoCo decks do have a lot of air in the 60 in the form of dorks, this includes bant spirits too.
Traverse shell doesn't have the most grinding power, it is probably be worse at grinding compared to Jund or any other BGx deck but we have a flexible removal package and combined with our lifegaining threats like scooze and rhino, I feel we can get there against spirits decks most of the time.
CoCo is also another moment for spirits decks where they have their shields down and you can cash in your removal. You can either hit a creature with coco on stack or hit what they put on the table with ETB triggers on the stack. Nightmare scenario where they hit double drogskol or a combination of drogskol/image/kira to get a lock is pretty rare.
The point is in my mind, when you leave in TS, you are effecively saying we don't want to grind, but compete playing the tempo game. CoCo is a tempo card, and TS is a card which can snag it also before they could cast it, making it easier for us to put them on chump block mode, since they will less likely overrun us beforehand. But of course there are the obvious downsides to leaving TS against an aggro deck.
I like the math in here, it makes sense. To be critical, would it be the same if the hit was Eidolon of the great Revel? Or do we always just take 2dmg for removing it once it lands? And what if you need your removal for Goblin Guide?
Love to hear about a more comprehensive strategy versus burn.
If you can, you almost certainly don't want to hit Eidolon with your discard. Because usually, Eidolon trades best with us, since it only deals 2 dmg and costs 2 mana (when you kill it right away). I would rather take a Bolt/Spike/Rift Bolt. But the problem is it means you absolutely have to kill it first before you do something else. If you can't do that, you probably have to take it with discard though. Overall though I am not too concerned about Eidolon, also due to the fact that we can potentially kill it for free with a LoTV on the table.
Goblin Guide is indeed also a needed target for removal, but you could potentially take 4 from it if you are light on removal and feel you would get screwed by an Eidolon. I would only do that though if I had a goyf or so to throw in the way of a Guide on turn 2 (otp). When you are on the play, you can even ignore the guide somewhat if you have a turn 2 goyf (and there is nothing more important to do) since Guide would only do 2 dmg then theoretically.
Overall its all about thinking about how many life we loose with how many mana from them. On average its 3 dmg per mana. If you can get a deal which is below that (one mana 2 dmg in the case of Guide or the best: 2 mana for only 2 dmg in case of eidolon) then you can squeeze the best chance of winning out of that since the opponent can get to a point where they need 1-2 extra drawsteps before they find their lethal spell. If you balance that with an early Goyf, then you can kill the opponent beforehand.
The question what remains for me is whether Traverse would be just better or not. You obviously aren't that susceptible to GY hate if you choose Oath, but there is a certain failure rate alongside it, plus you have to live with what you reveal with Oath. Sometimes thats useless as well. Traverse allows you 100 % tutor for a basic, and if delirium is enabled, tutor for any creature you want.
Instead of playing Oath, I would just play Traverse tbh. You can just swap them, and play the 2 copies. I think it would be a bit more consistant.
I don't get it, you have 21 lands, which is 1 or 2 than the average Traverse. Even with Oath of Nissa you still have more lands.
You also run 1 less Flayer, which helps to smooth out the draws, hence, less lands drawn in the late game.
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Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
Yeah, Reid Dukes match really shows how to do it^^
You can also watch Reid Dukes interview in that PT, where he says you want to be on defense the whole time, but always be aware of possible chip dmg you can get safely in. You need to find a good balance of dealing with the board vs. developing pressure. Playing mana efficient is very important, so I would probably develop a goyf over holding up a Push on turn 2.
r1: Humans
g1 he flooded some and I was able to capitalize and he was too far behind to come back. g2 was close but he ripped a second mantis rider to finish me off. g3 was a slaughter. bunch of removal into a big scooze and tracker then a yahenni's to wipe his board and net me a goyf.
1-0
r2 martyr proc
2 games and both were easily won. He has tiny dudes and a bunch of spells which were all nabbed by discard and then steamrolled over. I haven't played against this much but it felt very good for me.
2-0
r3 G tron
g1 I was able to field of Ruin him off tron long enough to have a smasher into a second smasher get me there. g2 I should have lost honestly he bricked pretty hard for a while but when he did draw stuff I had answers for them and was able to scrape it out in the end. He had tron for basically the entire game. Goyf and eldrazi were MVP as was FoR. I had to battle through a wurmcoil, karn and 2 Oblivion stones.
3-0
r4 hollow one
g1 I have a couple discard and his hand is pure garbage with 2 bloodghast and something else. He rips faithless looting binning both, plays a land plus cycles wraith and plays a hollow boi. Just like that my hand of discard and stuff was completely garbage and I lose. He only saw 2 of my lands so he just assumed I was straight GB, obviously. g2 I am on the eldrazi plan and just straight steam roll him. He was obviously not expecting that. g3 he has the adept but I have removal after he tries to slam in for like 8 with it. I push it and he plays a hollow one which I untap and play a 5/6 goyf. He plays tasigur making my dude a 1/2 but I have a rec sage for the hollow boi and then a pulse for tasigur. From there it was easy.
4-0
r5: counters company
I was in 8th and there was 9 undefeated UGH. I beat him down g1 with a bunch of removal and into huge goyf and TKS. I then play some discard into smasher and that was that. From here the other undefeated player lost to so we were in the clear to ID into top 8! I think this match is pretty good for me especially being up a game going into game 2. I was confident I could have gone 5-0.
We play top 8 tomorrow 9am at GP Providence 3 more matches and it's off to the pro tour, imagine that! The meta here was seriously like 50% humans. There was an absurd amount, it was really stupid. Outside of that it was really diverse as one would expect. I would say UWx was the next most represented deck but no where near the numbers of humans.
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Current Decks:
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange BWG Abzan value evolution BUG BUG Midrange
The Humans matchup has been a really tight one for me as well. As a non-Traverse player I feel favored on paper with the pure amount of interaction I pack, but their threat density is just so high. In fairness, this matchup specifically seems to be a lightning rod for bad luck on my part. See my tournament reports for some clear examples of this. My latest tangle with Humans on MTGO provided another WTF moment: G3, I’m fully stabilized, but at 1 life, with a Goyf on board that just started to crash in last turn. I play Kalitas and pass, two shocklands untapped, Path and Push in hand, opponent empty handed with just the Hierarch he drew last turn on board. No way I can lose from here. Aaaaanddd...he topdecks a Gut Shot for lethal. Wat.
I was floored, not least because that card coming in against Abzan is a questionable decision, to put it mildly. Still, just as world class pilots “make” their own luck by maximizing the chances for their draws to bail them out, the best decks make their own luck in a similar way. As Brightmist said, Humans are top dog for a reason.
Played in my first real deal PTQ in many many years at GP Providence.
...
r5: counters company
I was in 8th and there was 9 undefeated UGH. I beat him down g1 with a bunch of removal and into huge goyf and TKS. I then play some discard into smasher and that was that. From here the other undefeated player lost to so we were in the clear to ID into top 8! I think this match is pretty good for me especially being up a game going into game 2. I was confident I could have gone 5-0.
We play top 8 tomorrow 9am at GP Providence 3 more matches and it's off to the pro tour, imagine that! The meta here was seriously like 50% humans. There was an absurd amount, it was really stupid. Outside of that it was really diverse as one would expect. I would say UWx was the next most represented deck but no where near the numbers of humans.
Agreed, you would have been heavy favorite for the 5-0. Coutners Company seems like a near bye for anything GBx. I’m something ridiculous like 7-0 against it online.
Congratulations on the great run! Best of luck today, let us know how it goes.
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I beat UW control in the quarters of the PTQ today. Was a close but long match as expected. It is certainly tough matchup but he got kinda land screwed so I guess that was good for me g3 and my spells lined up well. I think I played decently enough. I then spoiled it by making a total BONEHEAD play in g3 of semis vs humans. Board was as follows: he has 2 buglers in play with a vial on 3 and I play a TKS with yahenni's expertise in hand. He reveals 2 reflector mages, mantis rider and a hostage taker. I stupidly take the mantis rider as that card is his best card vs me. Turns out I totally miss assessed hostage taker like an idiot and forgot that when he casts it He thoughtseizes me. Well he ticks up to 4 plays taker and casts my tks taking my yahennis. I'm totally boned from here outside a damnation. I'm disappointed in myself for doing that, it was totally dumb but I learned the hard way. oh well what can you do. It also happened that he drew all of this 3 toughness guys as I had flaying tendrils in hand.
Overall the deck performed well as it has been over the last year of me playing it. Dodging the blood moon matches (there were very few) this deck is a house. Had I played better I know I would have ended up winning especially considering I would be playing counters company in the finals. Still I went 5-1-1 over all so I have no complaints and I hope I gave this variant a little exposure.
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Modern: BG eldrazi midrange BWG Abzan value evolution BUG BUG Midrange
This is not the first time I saw this version now, and I am a little sceptical on 4 Traverse honestly. It feels quite susceptible to GY hate which you should expect quite a bit already.
Walking Ballista can't be abused in Junk or Rock the way it can in Tron variants but it can still help late game in board stalls. It provides a little reach.
I've played Walking Ballista from the very start as a 4th copy of Bauble in Sultai since i didn't have the playset complete at the time.
To me it has proven to be more than that and has been a mainstay ever since.
I've done the pro-con vs Bauble several times and have to conclude i like Bauble only in me opener and nowhere else. Whereas i like Ballista everytime i see it.
It's a T2 removalspell for opposing Thalias (sans tax), Confidants, Dorks and the like. It a better enabler for Delirium (adds two types) and i've been in situations where i just traverse for it to close out the game.
It's a dead draw late game and not really a traverse target, how is it always good when drawn?
Technically it is never a dead draw in the lategame. Its a mana sink, this naturally means its got applications for the lategame. However, I am just reporting what I read, not what I experienced myself.
Abzan has more finishing power than Sultai. I agree with that statement completely. This however makes no case against Ballista and to me would be no reason to drop it.
To me it's a utility niche which has uses that surpass those of Bauble. The latter being great in the early game, preferable T1, but feels lackluster everywhere else.
I cannot think of any reason not to run a 3/1 split over a 4/0 split in favor of Bauble.
Ballista would not be in place of the 4th bauble, but in place of the 1 of Grisly Salvage from the original list.
I think I'll give it a try, a lot of people swear by it, and I basically can get why.
yeah ballista is great! not just delirium enabler, not just early removal. it can pressure planeswalker, mana sink when flooding, and good reach/finisher. won games when I fetch for it to deal last 2 damage or ping phantasmal image and X/1 creatures to stabilize. I have it as a replacement for the 3rd path because don't like having 3 paths.
Ballista would not be in place of the 4th bauble, but in place of the 1 of Grisly Salvage from the original list.
I think I'll give it a try, a lot of people swear by it, and I basically can get why.
Grisly Salvage also serves a niche role versus creature light decks to get instants in the yard, similar to Collective Brutality. It's also a non graveyard dependent dig for a silver bullet. I very much like the inclusion.
Question, since most of you seem to hold on to the full playset of Bauble. Do you, like me, cut a copy of Bauble to board in Nihil Spellbomb?
Its hard to cut a cantrip from the main when the manabase is built around it. If you play 19 lands only (and especially if you play GQ alongside) then I can't really see Bauble to be boarded out. However, since you want to exchange it with Spellbomb, which being also a cantrip, it might work, but I am not sure about it. The thing is that often you don't want to crack Spellbomb right away, and therefore you cannot expect when you actually cantrip or if you cantrip at all with it. Its a bit shaky I think. Overall I would say its prob safe to board out 1-2 Baubles when you are on 20 lands, but I would prob keep all if I am on 19 lands.
I like the math in here, it makes sense. To be critical, would it be the same if the hit was Eidolon of the great Revel? Or do we always just take 2dmg for removing it once it lands? And what if you need your removal for Goblin Guide?
Love to hear about a more comprehensive strategy versus burn.
Let's put it this way, ive yet to regret it.
To me, double Drogskol is not that rare, and even less if you count in Kira. The deck also has lines like T1 Wanderer, T2 Selfless Spirit, T3 Drogskol into T4 CoCo. If your removal doensn't line up, you're in a very bad spot.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW
The point is in my mind, when you leave in TS, you are effecively saying we don't want to grind, but compete playing the tempo game. CoCo is a tempo card, and TS is a card which can snag it also before they could cast it, making it easier for us to put them on chump block mode, since they will less likely overrun us beforehand. But of course there are the obvious downsides to leaving TS against an aggro deck.
If you can, you almost certainly don't want to hit Eidolon with your discard. Because usually, Eidolon trades best with us, since it only deals 2 dmg and costs 2 mana (when you kill it right away). I would rather take a Bolt/Spike/Rift Bolt. But the problem is it means you absolutely have to kill it first before you do something else. If you can't do that, you probably have to take it with discard though. Overall though I am not too concerned about Eidolon, also due to the fact that we can potentially kill it for free with a LoTV on the table.
Goblin Guide is indeed also a needed target for removal, but you could potentially take 4 from it if you are light on removal and feel you would get screwed by an Eidolon. I would only do that though if I had a goyf or so to throw in the way of a Guide on turn 2 (otp). When you are on the play, you can even ignore the guide somewhat if you have a turn 2 goyf (and there is nothing more important to do) since Guide would only do 2 dmg then theoretically.
Overall its all about thinking about how many life we loose with how many mana from them. On average its 3 dmg per mana. If you can get a deal which is below that (one mana 2 dmg in the case of Guide or the best: 2 mana for only 2 dmg in case of eidolon) then you can squeeze the best chance of winning out of that since the opponent can get to a point where they need 1-2 extra drawsteps before they find their lethal spell. If you balance that with an early Goyf, then you can kill the opponent beforehand.
The question what remains for me is whether Traverse would be just better or not. You obviously aren't that susceptible to GY hate if you choose Oath, but there is a certain failure rate alongside it, plus you have to live with what you reveal with Oath. Sometimes thats useless as well. Traverse allows you 100 % tutor for a basic, and if delirium is enabled, tutor for any creature you want.
Instead of playing Oath, I would just play Traverse tbh. You can just swap them, and play the 2 copies. I think it would be a bit more consistant.
You also run 1 less Flayer, which helps to smooth out the draws, hence, less lands drawn in the late game.
You can also watch Reid Dukes interview in that PT, where he says you want to be on defense the whole time, but always be aware of possible chip dmg you can get safely in. You need to find a good balance of dealing with the board vs. developing pressure. Playing mana efficient is very important, so I would probably develop a goyf over holding up a Push on turn 2.
3 scavenging ooze
4 tarmogoyf
3 tireless tracker
4 thought-knot seer
3 reality smasher
spells
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
3 fatal push
4 oath of nissa
1 cast down
1 abrupt decay
2 collective brutality
2 liliana of the veil
1 liliana, the last hope
1 maelstrom pulse
2 llanowar wastes
2 Blooming marsh
4 verdant catacombs
1 overgrown tomb
3 swamp
2 forest
1 twilight mire
1 treetop village
1 hissing quagmire
4 eldrazi temple
3 field of ruin
2 surgical extraction
2 flaying tendrils
1 damnation
1 yahenni's expertise
1 maelstrom pulse
1 thrun, the last troll
1 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
1 reclamation sage
2 fulminator mage
1 golgari charm
2 damping sphere
r1: Humans
g1 he flooded some and I was able to capitalize and he was too far behind to come back. g2 was close but he ripped a second mantis rider to finish me off. g3 was a slaughter. bunch of removal into a big scooze and tracker then a yahenni's to wipe his board and net me a goyf.
1-0
r2 martyr proc
2 games and both were easily won. He has tiny dudes and a bunch of spells which were all nabbed by discard and then steamrolled over. I haven't played against this much but it felt very good for me.
2-0
r3 G tron
g1 I was able to field of Ruin him off tron long enough to have a smasher into a second smasher get me there. g2 I should have lost honestly he bricked pretty hard for a while but when he did draw stuff I had answers for them and was able to scrape it out in the end. He had tron for basically the entire game. Goyf and eldrazi were MVP as was FoR. I had to battle through a wurmcoil, karn and 2 Oblivion stones.
3-0
r4 hollow one
g1 I have a couple discard and his hand is pure garbage with 2 bloodghast and something else. He rips faithless looting binning both, plays a land plus cycles wraith and plays a hollow boi. Just like that my hand of discard and stuff was completely garbage and I lose. He only saw 2 of my lands so he just assumed I was straight GB, obviously. g2 I am on the eldrazi plan and just straight steam roll him. He was obviously not expecting that. g3 he has the adept but I have removal after he tries to slam in for like 8 with it. I push it and he plays a hollow one which I untap and play a 5/6 goyf. He plays tasigur making my dude a 1/2 but I have a rec sage for the hollow boi and then a pulse for tasigur. From there it was easy.
4-0
r5: counters company
I was in 8th and there was 9 undefeated UGH. I beat him down g1 with a bunch of removal and into huge goyf and TKS. I then play some discard into smasher and that was that. From here the other undefeated player lost to so we were in the clear to ID into top 8! I think this match is pretty good for me especially being up a game going into game 2. I was confident I could have gone 5-0.
We play top 8 tomorrow 9am at GP Providence
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
I was floored, not least because that card coming in against Abzan is a questionable decision, to put it mildly. Still, just as world class pilots “make” their own luck by maximizing the chances for their draws to bail them out, the best decks make their own luck in a similar way. As Brightmist said, Humans are top dog for a reason.
Agreed, you would have been heavy favorite for the 5-0. Coutners Company seems like a near bye for anything GBx. I’m something ridiculous like 7-0 against it online.
Congratulations on the great run! Best of luck today, let us know how it goes.
YouTube Channel, with deck techs, gameplay, analysis, spoiler reviews, and more!
Overall the deck performed well as it has been over the last year of me playing it. Dodging the blood moon matches (there were very few) this deck is a house. Had I played better I know I would have ended up winning especially considering I would be playing counters company in the finals. Still I went 5-1-1 over all so I have no complaints and I hope I gave this variant a little exposure.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
This is not the first time I saw this version now, and I am a little sceptical on 4 Traverse honestly. It feels quite susceptible to GY hate which you should expect quite a bit already.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
To me it has proven to be more than that and has been a mainstay ever since.
I've done the pro-con vs Bauble several times and have to conclude i like Bauble only in me opener and nowhere else. Whereas i like Ballista everytime i see it.
It's a T2 removalspell for opposing Thalias (sans tax), Confidants, Dorks and the like. It a better enabler for Delirium (adds two types) and i've been in situations where i just traverse for it to close out the game.
I won't be taking it from my deck anytime soon.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW
Technically it is never a dead draw in the lategame. Its a mana sink, this naturally means its got applications for the lategame. However, I am just reporting what I read, not what I experienced myself.
To me it's a utility niche which has uses that surpass those of Bauble. The latter being great in the early game, preferable T1, but feels lackluster everywhere else.
I cannot think of any reason not to run a 3/1 split over a 4/0 split in favor of Bauble.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW
I think I'll give it a try, a lot of people swear by it, and I basically can get why.
yeah ballista is great! not just delirium enabler, not just early removal. it can pressure planeswalker, mana sink when flooding, and good reach/finisher. won games when I fetch for it to deal last 2 damage or ping phantasmal image and X/1 creatures to stabilize. I have it as a replacement for the 3rd path because don't like having 3 paths.
Grisly Salvage also serves a niche role versus creature light decks to get instants in the yard, similar to Collective Brutality. It's also a non graveyard dependent dig for a silver bullet. I very much like the inclusion.
Question, since most of you seem to hold on to the full playset of Bauble. Do you, like me, cut a copy of Bauble to board in Nihil Spellbomb?
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW