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Quote from SenYong »

Quote from DaveJacinto »

Quote from SenYong »

I currently don't own Liliana, the last hope. I replaced 2 sb spot with a painful truth and second anger of the god. Want to get some opinion, is she really impact lot to the grindy matchups much? Before I decide to buy over her. Thanks.

She is great on the grindy matchups for sure. It's one of the ways for you to not lose. If they have access to Abrupt Decay things aren't that crystal clear. It's great vs Infect. They can't win if you untap with LtLH in play. It's great against CoCo decks as well.

Thanks for reply. Against deck that go wide such as elves and dredge. Is it best to play her in game 2 for her +1 ability?

No, she's useless against Dredge. Too slow against Elves as well, probably.

Quote from whocansay »

No, she's useless against Dredge. Too slow against Elves as well, probably.

She works against Elves if you have enough removal to keep their board under control in the early game. She strands their x/1 mana dorks in hand because they won't want to play them out while she's on board.

Hmmm, just come out a little bit homework about the match ups nanalysis about Death's shadow Grixis. Feel free to look at it and give some opinion about it.


A. Unfavor Match Ups

1. Go Wide Strategies decks with Replaceable Creatures (Elves, Revolt Zoo, Dredge)

Best Cards:

-Board Wipes (Anger, Flaying Tendrills, Kozilek's Return, Izzet Statiscaster, EE)
-Single Removal (Push, Terminate, Dismember)
-Damage Penetration Cards (Temur Battle Rage)
-Dredge: Grave Hate (Nihil Spellbomb, Surgical, Rakdos Charm)


2. Control decks which High Disruption and Removals (UW Control, Eldrazi Taxes, UB Faeries, Jeskai/Grixis/Esper Control, W/R Sun & Moon, Lantern Control)

Best Cards:

-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize)
-Counterspells (Stubborn Denial, Countersquall)
-Modal Spells (Kolaghan’s Command, Collective Brutality, Liliana Last Hope or Veil)
-Flexi-ness Cards (Serum Vision, Snapcaster Mage)
-Sun & Moon, Lantern Control: Artifact Hate (Kolaghan’s Command, Rakdos Charm)


3. High Damage Deck with Fast Life Deduction (Burns, 8rack)

Best Cards:

-Discard (Inquisition, Collective Brutality)
-Counterspells (Stubborn Denial, Countersquall, Kolaghan’s Command)
-Life Gain (Collective Brutality)
-Single Removal (Push, Terminate)


B. Even Match Ups

1. Go Wide Strategies Deck with Irreplaceable Creatures (Merfolk, Affinity, Abzan Company, Kiki-Chord)


Best Cards:

-Board Wipe (Anger, Flaying Tendrills, Kozilek's Return, Izzet Statiscaster, EE)
-Single Removal (Push, Terminate, Dismember)
-Damage Penetration Cards (Temur Battle Rage)
-Affinity: Artifact Hate (Kolaghan’s Command, Rakdos Charm)
-Abzan Company: Grave Hate, Card Selection (Surgical, Rakdos Charm)

2. Big Mana decks with Mid Game Creatures (EldraTron, Bant Eldrazi, Breach Titan, Gx Tron)

Best Cards:

-Land Destruction (Fulminator, Molten Rain, Crumble)
-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize) + Card Selection (Surgical Extraction)
-Damage Penetration Cards (Temur Battle Rage)
-Eldrazis: Board Wipe, Single Removal (Terminate, Dismember)


3. Midrange Deck with Fair Strategies (Jund / Abzan Midrange, Bant Knightfall, Skred, Grixis Delver)

Best Cards:

-Single Removal (Push, Terminate, Dismember)
-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize)
-Counterspells (Stubborn Denial, Countersquall)
-Modal Spells (Kolaghan’s Command, Collective Brutality, Liliana Last Hope or Veil)
-Flexi-ness Cards (Serum Vision, Snapcaster Mage)


4. Midrange Death’s Shadow Decks with Distruption (Death’s Shadow Jund/Abzan)

Best Cards:

-Single Removal (Push, Terminate, Dismember)
-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize)
-Counterspell (Stubborn Denial)
-Modal Spells (Kolaghan’s Command, Collective Brutality, Liliana Last Hope or Veil)
-Single Card Selection (Surgical + Snapcaster Mage)
-Damage Penetration Cards (Temur Battle Rage)
-Lingering Soul Hate (Surgical Extraction, Izzet Statiscater, Nihil Spellbomb, Rakdos Charm)


C. Favor Match Ups

1. Non-go Wide Strategies Decks with Single or Few Creature (Infect, Griselbrand)

Best Cards:

-Single Removal (Push, Terminate, Dismember)
-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize)
-Counterspells (Stubborn Denial, Countersquall)
-Griselbrand: Grave Hate (Nihil Spellbomb, Surgical, Rakdos Charm)


2. Combo Decks with Spell-Oriented (Scapeshift, Ad Nauseam, Living End, UR Storm)

Best Cards:

-Discard (Inquisition, Thoughtseize)
-Counterspells (Stubborn Denial, Countersquall)
-Single Card Selection (Surgical Extraction)
-Living End: Grave Hate (Nihil Spellbomb, Surgical, Rakdos Charm)

Quote from Wraithpk »

Quote from whocansay »

No, she's useless against Dredge. Too slow against Elves as well, probably.

She works against Elves if you have enough removal to keep their board under control in the early game. She strands their x/1 mana dorks in hand because they won't want to play them out while she's on board.

Yeah, Liliana the Last Hope is one of the few ways we can win vs elves. She doesn't solve all of your problems, but as long as you have point removal for the major threats (Ezuri, Archdruid), and a blocker to protect her, she will win the game for you.

Also wanted to point out that Liliana TLH is good to have as a way to beat hate. You bring her in to grind, but she also increases your threat density if you get hit with a rest in peace or a surgical

Quote from bfitz88 »

Also wanted to point out that Liliana TLH is good to have as a way to beat hate. You bring her in to grind, but she also increases your threat density if you get hit with a rest in peace or a surgical

Very true. I won a game the other day where my opponent landed a turn 2 rip, but I landed Lili and ticked her up to ult.

I came across a card in my collection I like,could prove to be too suicidal though.vendetta.

I've thought about Vendetta but the non-black clause is a huge liability vs. shadow, gurmag and tasigur

Dismember is a similar effect, while being much more flexible and hitting a larger range of modern creatures.

The reason you don't see many lists with dismember (or vendetta) is that the decks with creatures already bring your life total down. Lowering your life total is most relevant against decks like ad nauseum and Tron, where dismember is dead

Quote from Bobby »

I saw Butakov playing two Lightning Bolts as well, I am wondering what the reasoning is behind that, more often than not I find my Lightning Bolts dead and very, very rarely better than Fatal Push. I guess in the mirror there is a threat of Bolt into Snapcaster.

Did anyone try out Jace, Vryns? I wonder why nobody is playing him, he seems good for match-ups which tend to go longer.

I think Bolt is here to stay, 2 is the correct number, some of players play 3. Sometime we need bolt more than push for dealing with nasty planeswalker such as liliana, or karn. Besides, late game bolt-snap-bolt could be win you some games by reduce your opponent 6 life.

I guess baby Jace is there for grind matchups, but we already have liliana, the last hope to be more appropriate who fit well in our strategies more than Jace.

It's hard to say without knowing your local metagame, maybe you don't need two Bolts in the main?

Sweet dude, can't wait. Much appreciated!

Quote from gkourou »

Had the same discussion with WraithPK the other day.
What do you guys think I should cut to fir 2 Ceremonious Rejection in? Is there something I have a lot of redundancy in the sideboard? I was thinking the most up-for-discussion cards are Countersquall ,maybe Kolaghan's Command and/or the second Temur Battle Rage.
Anger Of The Gods is great in my meta with some Dredge players and Abzan Company on the rise. I do want it in.

I'd probably cut a countsquall and a grind element, etiher kommand or Lili.

Lighting bolt is good because of how flexible it is, in my opinion.

Think about the matchups where you don't want bolt. In those games it's still easy to find scenarios where it's great.

Quote from bfitz88 »

Lighting bolt is good because of how flexible it is, in my opinion.

Think about the matchups where you don't want bolt. In those games it's still easy to find scenarios where it's great.

I've actually been playing an Esper build lately and I find that I do not miss Bolt much at all, as strange as it feels for me to say that.

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from bfitz88 »

Lighting bolt is good because of how flexible it is, in my opinion.

Think about the matchups where you don't want bolt. In those games it's still easy to find scenarios where it's great.

I've actually been playing an Esper build lately and I find that I do not miss Bolt much at all, as strange as it feels for me to say that.

Yeah Bolt Snap Bolt is great but mostly fringe scenarios otherwise. Don't you miss KCommand though? TBR?

There is a lot to be said for the strong sideboard options white opens up for you in Esper though, for sure.

I'm actually very interested in esper death's shadow, I'm wondering what you guys think of the deck.

I've been grinding grixis DS on MTGO for about two months now, I think I have a pretty good grasp of where that deck stands. I'm lukewarm on lightning bolt but I absolutely love Kolaghan's command and think it alone is worth the red splash. The card is just so, so good in our deck.

My question is, does the white splash add more? We would get to replace bolt with path, which sounds fantastic in the current meta, and... lingering souls and orzhov charm? Souls is insane value but fairly off-plan and slow. I've never cast an orzhov charm in my life so I have no idea how to judge it but it seems kinda swingy.

Are either of these cards able to fill Kolaghan's Command's shoes? I do like the idea of just playing charms over them and being lower to the ground.

Additionally, I hear a lot about esper having "improved sideboarding options". I understand white's sideboard dominance in modern (stony, RIP, timely, etc...), but I'm not sure exactly which of these are good for our deck. We can't play RIP, stony is great but cutting Kolagan's means we're in a similar spot, and the lifegain options are anti-synergistic with out strategy.

From what I can tell, the best sideboard cards white gives us are additional paths, lingering souls, geist of saint traft, phyrexian unlife, fragmentize, ranger of eos (?), and stony silence. We lose anger of the gods (which shores up a ton of bad matchups), TBR (see anger of the gods), and nonsense like terminate which nobody will miss if we have paths.

I've written a lot at this point, especially for someone thats never played esper shadow. Let me know your opinions, I think it honestly is a topic worthy of extended debate. I'll probably also start playing esper online for a while, so if someone has a list they could recommend that would be great.

You're going to ask the same question because it got lost in the noise of esper shadow comments? lol. Your comment is 2 comments up dude, i'm sure people will see it. Esper Shadow and Grixis shadow have like 10 cards difference (Minus the lands). They have the same strategy in about every matchup, i think discussing the merits of each deck and comparing them is a reasonable thing to do.

Board out all of your removal vs merfolk. Duh

To the guy complaining about my esper post: I see your point. I brought it up here because I thought it was something the majority of grixis players would be interested in.

Against merfolk I cut 3 Street wraith and stubborn and bring in 2 anger, terminate, and 2 brutality. Wraith is less important when you're casting removal early and taking hits. Brutality is just a kill spell that hits master. Be careful fetching for anger around spreading seas

Against dredge I cut kolaghans command, 2 wraith, and push. I bring in the last stubborn, 2 anger, 2 nihil spellbomb, and 2 TBR. Command is slow and low impact, push really only deals with narcomeobas, and again your life total is being pressured so wraith is suspect. I like 4 stubborn in this matchup because they are great early and deal with conflagrate. TBR helps race and takes advantage of their lack of removal

So the guy should make an Esper Shadow thread just to ask a few questions about hypothetical differences between that deck and ours? Get a grip.