I think Anger is just better in general, the casting cost is non-trivial but the mana base should get you there most of the time. I would cut 1x Push MB and jam 1x TBR, plus another one in the SB. I'm on the side that believes racing Champion is better against Affinity since i hate getting blown out by Ravager if they have a developed boardstate. You can put Angers anyways against them and race champion with TBR.
I think having all 4 Denials plus some Countersqualls is usually correct(4 Denials in the 75 is a must IMO). It makes combo matchups so much better.
Other than that, i like having 3-4 Terminates in my 75, it's pretty much obligatory given that Delve fatties and Eldrazis are the most played creatures in this format. Not sure if i would want 2 Terminates MB, but at least 1 for sure.
What are thoughts on LtLH in the Main as a split with kommand?
I see a lot of posts along the lines of "if you can get to 5 mana, snapcaster along side kommand..." and lili has the same synergy but splits the mana up and can stick around.
I know they are for different matchups but in an unknown meta is lili really that much worse in the main to not justify the upside?
I'm finally giving up on delver for now, I had been playing ds in that deck for over a year so I have experience but without delver I am more seriously considering planeswalkers.
What are thoughts on LtLH in the Main as a split with kommand?
I see a lot of posts along the lines of "if you can get to 5 mana, snapcaster along side kommand..." and lili has the same synergy but splits the mana up and can stick around.
I know they are for different matchups but in an unknown meta is lili really that much worse in the main to not justify the upside?
I'm finally giving up on delver for now, I had been playing ds in that deck for over a year so I have experience but without delver I am more seriously considering planeswalkers.
Until we get a main-deckable free/1cmc counterspell and free/1cmc great cantrip as a SPELL, Delver will not be relevant in Modern as long as Death's Shadow is legal. Which is unfortunate... my foil Delvers are very sad. But my non-foil Death's Shadows are enjoying 4-0 FNMs.
As far as Liliana, I am considering running her main deck as well, but I don't know if I can cut another K command (currently only 2 main). Not sure what I would cut to make room for her because I don't want to drop below 2 K Command.
What are thoughts on LtLH in the Main as a split with kommand?
I see a lot of posts along the lines of "if you can get to 5 mana, snapcaster along side kommand..." and lili has the same synergy but splits the mana up and can stick around.
I know they are for different matchups but in an unknown meta is lili really that much worse in the main to not justify the upside?
I'm finally giving up on delver for now, I had been playing ds in that deck for over a year so I have experience but without delver I am more seriously considering planeswalkers.
A couple points:
1) you don't need 5 mana for Snapcaster + K Command to be good. You can just K Command back a Snapcaster EOT while shocking something or making them discard. Yes, the interaction is better when you can get to 5 mana and just keep chaining Snapcasters, but you don't need that for it to be good.
2) LtLH is much worse MD because it just doesn't interact with large swathes of the metagame. K Command gives you extra game vs Lantern, Scrap Trawler/KCI combo, Ad Nauseum, Tron variants, etc., and at worst can still be a mini-blightning EOT vs various combo decks or get back a Snapcaster to have Snap + Discard or Snap + Counter for the following turn. LtLH is basically only good in grindy matchups and against decks with a lot of X/1s, though it is really good in those matchups.
3) If you want a planeswalker MD that is still good vs random stuff, perhaps to replace a K Command, consider Liliana of the Veil. Old school Jund played it as a 4 of for a reason.
Some good points being made here today.. I think I am much closer to 0 bolts than 3 bolts now. I've been running 2 bolts and I can't remember the last time bolts to the face has really mattered. Thinking I should just cut bolts for more terminates and include a second TBR for racing.
Some good points being made here today.. I think I am much closer to 0 bolts than 3 bolts now. I've been running 2 bolts and I can't remember the last time bolts to the face has really mattered. Thinking I should just cut bolts for more terminates and include a second TBR for racing.
I've come from a Twin and Delver background where Bolt-Snap-Bolt is often the ideal finisher after chipping in for early damage. But in Death's Shadow does not chip in for early damage and actually has excellent midgame closing speed on the back of 1 mana 5/5s and 8/8s. So closing out with Bolts feels irrelevant most of the time. They seem most often used as additional removal or even bolting myself to make double DSs bigger.. Very strange realization for myself, and kind of disheartening to remove yet another of my foil full art Bolts...
yea the philosophy isn't like delver where we 'chip away' for 3 or 2 at a time and finish them off with bolt snap bolt. We chiefly want to play fatties and then run them over with removal/countermagic protection. Bolt takes away from the ability to ping planeswalkers but 3 damage isn't likely to kill off a planeswalker that a fatty wouldn't anyway, but this is where dreadbore may come in. The rise of affinity/vizier coco online lately has made bolt more useful as a mana efficient removal though and I've bolted myself a non-negligible amount of times.
In sum I am still conflicted but leaning towards no bolt..
I have noticed that I did draw a lot of fatal push, so I like trimming that. And I did want terminate main so that's nice to know is common. Is bolt really that bad here?
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"Play to have fun, it's a game."
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
I targeted myself with bolt more often than anything else when I still had it in my deck, to be honest. This was a nice upside vs, e.g., Ad Nauseum, because you could take 1-2 turns off the clock very easily. But as a removal spell, it always seems pretty poor.
I still like having one bolt. I might have turned into a mediocre removal spell but it's still relevent and I still have won games with bolt > Snap > Bolt or pumping multiple Shadows on the field.
I'm really enjoying all the analysis recently guys, it's really productive. If I get to play at my LGS this weekend, I'm going to try cutting bolt for 2 mana leak. Has anyone else tried this to any success?
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How I like to win games:
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
I'm really enjoying all the analysis recently guys, it's really productive. If I get to play at my LGS this weekend, I'm going to try cutting bolt for 2 mana leak. Has anyone else tried this to any success?
I think there's one guy running Leaks in this thread for sure, go back a couple pages. Seems terrible to me but hey.
*raises hand*
The short version: Leak gives you generic interaction against basically every deck in the format, and because Shadow + Delve fatties close so fast, the late game downside isn't so bad. Plus generating tempo when you have a 5/5 in play is really good. I run 2-3 leaks, and 0 IoK.
Leak on paper seems bad. You just don't have the spare mana early in the game to hold it up. This is a very proactive deck, I don't think you can afford to not cast your spells for the chance that you'll get to Leak something important. If this was Counterspell it would be different, as that's not dead in the late game.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
If I wanted to jam some random stuff into flex slots, I would run two main board Surgical Extraction all day. It really rewards knowledge of opponent decks and works fantastically with Thoughtsieze/IoK. Plus, free life loss for Shadow. Plus, it gives an edge in game 1 for matchups that otherwise might be very difficult.
Let’s look at the main deck. First of all, 2 Terminates main and 2 in the side. Originally, this was a meta call for my local store (lots of Grixis players so I wanted more outs to Tasigur), but also turned out to work quite well at Hareruya as the place was infested with Grixis and decks tuned to beat Grixis including UW control with 5 mana Gideon and BUG Tezzarator with Herald of Anguish. These are pretty fringe cases, but I really like having two unconditional removal spells in the main now that the format is adapting to Fatal Push
Second, I run no Inquisition of Kozilek in the main or side. In a lot of my early testing, I found I often sided them out. They felt low impact and I wanted more counter magic for my interaction aside from Thoughtseize. I ultimately replaced them with a Temur Battle Rage and the third Stubborn Denial. I think it’s absolutely wrong to not be running 2 TBR in the 75. They help us cheese wins in our bad MU’s by giving us insanely fast kills. We don’t use it as well as the Jund version, but it still does a lot of work. Grixis can also search for it better with our blue cantrips and can even Snapcaster it back. Then there’s my 3 Stubborn Denials. I fell in love with the card in RUG Delver. I think it’s even better in Grixis Shadow because all of our threats can come down for one mana. I often sided in the fourth one as well, so I will be looking for a way to run a playset main.
Lastly, I’d like to weigh in on the 2 Steam Vents vs 2 Blood Crypts debate. I’m currently on 2 Steam vents because 1) We can keep a one land hand with Steam Vents and cantrips while there are few one landers with Blood Crypt that I would keep and 2) I have two foil Steam Vents. Joking aside, I think 2 Blood Crypts would give the deck better mana at the cost of having to mulligan more. I’m not 100% certain and need to test both configurations a lot more.
As for the sideboard, I have chosen to run no Fulminator Mages. As many others have commented, they are often too slow in the match ups where we would want that effect. In their place, I run two Ceremonious Rejection. It’s great against the decks where we would want Fulminators (Tron and Eldrazi), but works against other decks like Lantern and Affinity. I’m currently using Anger of the Gods as my sweeper of choice due to the rise in Collected Company decks. Finks and Voice are annoying as ever and Kozilek’s Return is poor against them. I also have Nihil Spellbomb over Surgical Extraction, but I need to do more testing to decide which is better for my deck. I’m leaning towards Surgical because of instant speed, ability to be Snapcastered, and life loss helps with the game plan. 2 Machine Gun Lilys are a lock for any 75 in my opinion. Great against Lingering Souls, midrange decks, and control decks. In the “extra grindy card” slot, I went with another Kolaghan’s Command. I like the utility against artifacts (affinity has been rising steadily) and prefer it over sorcery speed cards like Painful Truths.
I’ll try to have my tournament report out later tonight, but I’m feeling a bit run down.
I don't like cutting Inquisition at all. Not necessarily because I am in love with the card itself, but I really, really want to have a turn 1 discard spell. With 7-8 copies in the deck, it's much more likely to have it in my opening hand than if I only had 4. I have won a lot of games on the back of turn 1 discard, either taking their early play or clearing the way for an early threat. My eyes have been opened. As much as I love counterspells, the proactive removal + knowledge of hand is too good to not want more copies of it.
Back on the bolt discussion, I'm considering cutting my land destruction in the sideboard for bolts in an attempt to just play as fast as possible or a possible second Battlerage. This would also give me more removal against more go wide decks. Thoughts?
Back on the bolt discussion, I'm considering cutting my land destruction in the sideboard for bolts in an attempt to just play as fast as possible or a possible second Battlerage. This would also give me more removal against more go wide decks. Thoughts?
Sounds fine, land destruction isn't something we want to focus on anyway. Second TBR makes more sense to me than an additional Bolt though.
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Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
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I think having all 4 Denials plus some Countersqualls is usually correct(4 Denials in the 75 is a must IMO). It makes combo matchups so much better.
Other than that, i like having 3-4 Terminates in my 75, it's pretty much obligatory given that Delve fatties and Eldrazis are the most played creatures in this format. Not sure if i would want 2 Terminates MB, but at least 1 for sure.
I see a lot of posts along the lines of "if you can get to 5 mana, snapcaster along side kommand..." and lili has the same synergy but splits the mana up and can stick around.
I know they are for different matchups but in an unknown meta is lili really that much worse in the main to not justify the upside?
I'm finally giving up on delver for now, I had been playing ds in that deck for over a year so I have experience but without delver I am more seriously considering planeswalkers.
Until we get a main-deckable free/1cmc counterspell and free/1cmc great cantrip as a SPELL, Delver will not be relevant in Modern as long as Death's Shadow is legal. Which is unfortunate... my foil Delvers are very sad. But my non-foil Death's Shadows are enjoying 4-0 FNMs.
As far as Liliana, I am considering running her main deck as well, but I don't know if I can cut another K command (currently only 2 main). Not sure what I would cut to make room for her because I don't want to drop below 2 K Command.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
A couple points:
1) you don't need 5 mana for Snapcaster + K Command to be good. You can just K Command back a Snapcaster EOT while shocking something or making them discard. Yes, the interaction is better when you can get to 5 mana and just keep chaining Snapcasters, but you don't need that for it to be good.
2) LtLH is much worse MD because it just doesn't interact with large swathes of the metagame. K Command gives you extra game vs Lantern, Scrap Trawler/KCI combo, Ad Nauseum, Tron variants, etc., and at worst can still be a mini-blightning EOT vs various combo decks or get back a Snapcaster to have Snap + Discard or Snap + Counter for the following turn. LtLH is basically only good in grindy matchups and against decks with a lot of X/1s, though it is really good in those matchups.
3) If you want a planeswalker MD that is still good vs random stuff, perhaps to replace a K Command, consider Liliana of the Veil. Old school Jund played it as a 4 of for a reason.
I've come from a Twin and Delver background where Bolt-Snap-Bolt is often the ideal finisher after chipping in for early damage. But in Death's Shadow does not chip in for early damage and actually has excellent midgame closing speed on the back of 1 mana 5/5s and 8/8s. So closing out with Bolts feels irrelevant most of the time. They seem most often used as additional removal or even bolting myself to make double DSs bigger.. Very strange realization for myself, and kind of disheartening to remove yet another of my foil full art Bolts...
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
In sum I am still conflicted but leaning towards no bolt..
4 Death's Shadow
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Thoughtseize
4 Serum Visions
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Fatal Push
4 Thought Scour
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Temur Battle Rage
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Blood Crypt
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Temur Battle Rage
2 Collective Brutality
1 Stubborn Denial
I have noticed that I did draw a lot of fatal push, so I like trimming that. And I did want terminate main so that's nice to know is common. Is bolt really that bad here?
"I do have fun. Winning is fun."
Modern URB Grixis Shadow
EDH URG Animar
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Legacy:
Burn
B/R Reanimator (slowly building
EDH:
Sedris Control/Reanimation
Modern:
Grixis Shadow
Burn
Titanshift
Copycat (Given up currently, not entirely sure what it needs)
Legacy:
Burn
B/R Reanimator (slowly building
EDH:
Sedris Control/Reanimation
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
*raises hand*
The short version: Leak gives you generic interaction against basically every deck in the format, and because Shadow + Delve fatties close so fast, the late game downside isn't so bad. Plus generating tempo when you have a 5/5 in play is really good. I run 2-3 leaks, and 0 IoK.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Sorry for the delay. Here is the promised post about my card choices in my build. For reference:
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
4x Serum Visions
4x Thoughtseize
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Lightning Bolt
3x Stubborn Denial
1x Temur Battle Rage
2x Terminate
4x Thought Scour
4x Death's Shadow
2x Gurmag Angler
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Street Wraith
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Collective Brutality
1x Countersquall
1x Kolaghan's Command
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Stubborn Denial
1x Temur Battle Rage
2x Terminate
Second, I run no Inquisition of Kozilek in the main or side. In a lot of my early testing, I found I often sided them out. They felt low impact and I wanted more counter magic for my interaction aside from Thoughtseize. I ultimately replaced them with a Temur Battle Rage and the third Stubborn Denial. I think it’s absolutely wrong to not be running 2 TBR in the 75. They help us cheese wins in our bad MU’s by giving us insanely fast kills. We don’t use it as well as the Jund version, but it still does a lot of work. Grixis can also search for it better with our blue cantrips and can even Snapcaster it back. Then there’s my 3 Stubborn Denials. I fell in love with the card in RUG Delver. I think it’s even better in Grixis Shadow because all of our threats can come down for one mana. I often sided in the fourth one as well, so I will be looking for a way to run a playset main.
Lastly, I’d like to weigh in on the 2 Steam Vents vs 2 Blood Crypts debate. I’m currently on 2 Steam vents because 1) We can keep a one land hand with Steam Vents and cantrips while there are few one landers with Blood Crypt that I would keep and 2) I have two foil Steam Vents. Joking aside, I think 2 Blood Crypts would give the deck better mana at the cost of having to mulligan more. I’m not 100% certain and need to test both configurations a lot more.
I’ll try to have my tournament report out later tonight, but I’m feeling a bit run down.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Sounds fine, land destruction isn't something we want to focus on anyway. Second TBR makes more sense to me than an additional Bolt though.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki