went 1-2 with Ben Friedman's GP list tonight (lost to mirror, jeskai, beat bogles 2-0). the list seems to be fine, just need to practice getting used to looting & not having opts
went 1-2 with Ben Friedman's GP list tonight (lost to mirror, jeskai, beat bogles 2-0). the list seems to be fine, just need to practice getting used to looting & not having opts
I believe the UWR matchup is harder for the friedman list since he doesn't (and really can't) run Young Peezy. That card is nuts in that matchup and I would not have won a match against that deck if I didn't have them. That's really my big issue with that list. I can see how bauble acts like a pseudo opt if you prefer to play with that, but yeah that's rough.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
Haha, that Spellskite idea sure is wild. Just redirect every single spell being cast to it and TBR for the win.
I found out you don't even need a spell to be cast. You can just crack a fetch, pay a bunch of life and then TBR them. It's crazy. More than likely a little too cute, and spellskite doesn't help against combo decks like Stubby D does, but something really cool I thought I would point out in case anyone wanted to try it out.
My friends told me to run a couple of these in the main event but I didn't believe them. Maybe I should have tried them out lol.
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I love the idea in theory, going to playtest it as well. Seems mad/hilarious enough to actually work while offering some incidental advantages in some MUs.
Hey guys, just thought I would introduce myself on this thread. I am a long-time player of B/W Tokens, U/R Kiln Fiend, and Mardu Burn among other decks on paper. I occasionally played Esper or Grixis Shadow on paper as well, but only when I felt inclined to disassemble several of my decks and borrow Snapcasters and Street Wraiths for a day or two to get all of the pieces together.
I am a midrange player at heart, and have always loved the playsyle of Grixis Shadow--simultaneously disruptive and aggressive, able to pull off fast kills or grind out opponents. It combines several of my favorite things in Magic: disruption, removal, cantrips, Delve creatures, Snapcasters, and complicated play lines that require considerable skill to pilot optimally.
So, I finally put together the deck, but for the first time digitally for MTGO. This is my first excursion into both online play and piloting Grixis Shadow seriously with the goal of mastering the deck. I look forward to learning valuable things from this thread, and perhaps contributing some valuable input of my own at some point. Here's a link to my initial build:
Something that would be helpful if one of you would be so inclined would be sideboarding advice given my particular 15 for some common matchups I am likely to face. Some situations are obvious, but I'm not confident that I will always know when cards like Liliana the Last Hope, Kolaghan's Command, and Young Pyromancer should be brought in.
A general idea of how we are positioned against other midrange decks like Mardu Pyromancer and Jund, along with how to approach those matchups strategically would be great. I already have enough experience palying against traditional aggro like Burn and Affinity, tribal creature decks like Merfolk and Humans, and combo decks like Storm to handle those well. Decks like Hollow One and KCI are totally new to me though. Anyways, thanks in advance; any input is greatly appreciated.
Spellskite is a weird card, but once you realize how literal it is, there really isn't an issue. You can redirect ANY spell or ability to Spellskite, unless it is a mana ability. In GDS you can do explosive attacks with it in play if you also have a Shadow - cast a spell or use an ability (such as cracking a fetch land) and activate Spellskite for as many times as needed targeting it. The spell or ability only successfully redirects if Spellskite is a legal target, otherwise it will resolve just like Spellskite never even tried to change targets. This way, we can pay 2 life however many times we want, which in turns grows the Shadow incredibly fast.
While playtesting with it I came up against lantern, they landed a bridge against me G1, which is usually a concession since I don't run any MB artifact removal. I had a 1/1 shadow in play, they were unable to cast the last card in hand. Once I attacked, I cracked a fetch land, redirected to spellskite a couple of times and connected for lethal.
I've been playing Traverse Shadow for about a year and have been slowly buying into Grixis. (Just need another Snap and EE maybe some more Tarns for easy mana!) Anyways I looked over Friedmann's list and was super excited to see that I could build it. After some playtesting I adjusted the removal for my meta and decided on swapping the Baubles for Manamorphose and jammed some YoungP's in there due to the increased spell count. It's been working well for me but I wanted some more experienced opinions on my list.
I don't think this list is bad, but I see a couple of issues:
1) Friedman's version of the deck is very aggressive and, hence, worse at playing the long game than other versions of the deck. Young Pyromancer, on the other hand, is a card that actually wants to play a longer game. It seems to be more suited for versions of the deck that morph into a control-ish deck after sideboarding. Snapcaster Mage and Kommand (which is completely absent from your list) are key cards in this secondary strategy.
2) Playing only 17 lands is already greedy and Manamorphose, unlike just about all of the alternatives (Mishra's Bauble, Serum Visions, Opt, etc.), will not help fix a one-lander.
3) Your list is a true three-color deck, compared to more traditional versions that are basically splashing red. While this might slightly improve your matchup vs. Blood Moon decks (which are usually not that scary with this much disruption), it comes at the cost of increased self-hurt in practice, which will almost inevitably translate into more game losses against hyper-aggressive decks like burn. It can also make your control matchup worse, since you will end up with a lot of dead draws in the not-so-unlikely event that your opponent locks you out of red via Field of Ruin and/or Spreading Seas.
4) With just the 4 Stubbs and no other counterspells in the 75, your disruption plan is extremely reliant on discard spells. Leyline of Sanctity and Wurmcoil Engine can and will eventually easily ruin your day.
I don't really see the advantages of this list over Traverse Shadow. The main incentives to go Grixis instead are, IMHO, the up to four Snapcaster Mages and the more diverse disruption package. Without this, I would rather have Goyfs.
So I'm curious what your guys' view and plans on siding for the following matchups:
Mardu Pyromancer
UWR Control
UW Control
I've seen a lot of debate about what people want to bring in/keep. I've heard arguments for keeping in TBR for all of these matchups because it's your "Splinter Twin" get out of jail free card. I guess most specifically for Mardu I was talking to Gerry T about it and he said since our deck is the beatdown he likes keeping them in and foregoing the sweepers. But maybe it's still correct to bring in 1 EE or Anger in case things go south. And mainly for mardu it's a question of what we take out. My guess is some number of spot removal spells and a Street Wraith or 2 but Street Wraith doesn't seem all that bad since it is a 3/4 with unblockable. A couple of those did help me win my match against it.
For the UWR and UW I've heard some say they take out scours and Anglers along with a couple removal spells to bring in grind cards. It's weird because you want bolts for the Planeswalkers and Push/Dismember for Colonnades so you can't completely cut either. But I'd say cut Dismember against UWR since the life is more precious and cut Push against UW since dismember can kill the Gideons. Street Wraith can also be hardcast in these games as a threat if the games tend to go long a bit, but UWR can close games fast with bolts and UW has the mana denial package so it's probably a lot harder for these to steal games than against Mardu.
The UWx matchups seem brutal for the bauble versions of this deck since they can't run YP but like before the best way to steal games is to just seize to oblivion, slam shadows and hold up stubby d until you get there.
I'm still one of the proponents for Serum and it's because of the prevalence of these decks that I still want it. Also because of the 3 easiest ways this deck just loses - Mana screw and flood (although these happen with every deck so take that for what it's worth) and not drawing a threat. Also why I added a couple lootings.
Oh yeah and I know I've been saying this for a while but play a 3rd TBR in your side. Card is straight gas.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
So I'm curious what your guys' view and plans on siding for the following matchups:
Mardu Pyromancer
UWR Control
UW Control
I've seen a lot of debate about what people want to bring in/keep. I've heard arguments for keeping in TBR for all of these matchups because it's your "Splinter Twin" get out of jail free card. I guess most specifically for Mardu I was talking to Gerry T about it and he said since our deck is the beatdown he likes keeping them in and foregoing the sweepers. But maybe it's still correct to bring in 1 EE or Anger in case things go south. And mainly for mardu it's a question of what we take out. My guess is some number of spot removal spells and a Street Wraith or 2 but Street Wraith doesn't seem all that bad since it is a 3/4 with unblockable. A couple of those did help me win my match against it.
For the UWR and UW I've heard some say they take out scours and Anglers along with a couple removal spells to bring in grind cards. It's weird because you want bolts for the Planeswalkers and Push/Dismember for Colonnades so you can't completely cut either. But I'd say cut Dismember against UWR since the life is more precious and cut Push against UW since dismember can kill the Gideons. Street Wraith can also be hardcast in these games as a threat if the games tend to go long a bit, but UWR can close games fast with bolts and UW has the mana denial package so it's probably a lot harder for these to steal games than against Mardu.
The UWx matchups seem brutal for the bauble versions of this deck since they can't run YP but like before the best way to steal games is to just seize to oblivion, slam shadows and hold up stubby d until you get there.
I'm still one of the proponents for Serum and it's because of the prevalence of these decks that I still want it. Also because of the 3 easiest ways this deck just loses - Mana screw and flood (although these happen with every deck so take that for what it's worth) and not drawing a threat. Also why I added a couple lootings.
Oh yeah and I know I've been saying this for a while but play a 3rd TBR in your side. Card is straight gas.
There is a lot of mardu pyromancer in my local meta (5 people play it regularly out of ~20). Three times a week I play the local modern tourney. I feel confident in saying that I've probably played the GDS-Mardu matchup in paper more than any other person on the planet.
TBR helps quickly close out games against combo decks, tron, and Valakut before they recover from your disruption. It also helps you steal games against affinity, elves, and humans. That much is true. But do you notice something all those decks I listed have in common? They have very little in the way of cheap removal/interaction. You don't have to worry as much about getting your TBR-Shadow getting disrupted. Mardu has tons of ways to break up TBR-Shadow/Angler
Fitting in a Godless Shrine with Lingering Souls coming in from the board has greatly increased my win rate against the deck. So long as you can remove/discard the pyro, then they have to rely on their souls tokens. Which is fine for them because a lingering souls can block 5/5 anglers for days while they recover. Additionally, as you are probably aware of, often times their victory involves Souls overwhelming your 1-1 removal. Boarding in and casting souls cuts those lines off for them pretty well.
Oh yeah and I know I've been saying this for a while but play a 3rd TBR in your side. Card is straight gas.
TBR has been treating me very well so far. Which matchups you bring in the third copy for?
JaceBooty was already alluding to this when he said: Tron and various non-interactive combo decks like Valakut, Storm, KCI and so on. But the beatuty in TBR is that it helps you steal games against some of your bad-worst matchups. Boggles, burn, affinity, Eldrazi decks, humans, dredge and Hollow One. Also fun thing to note is that the Bolt + TBR combo can still be cast even after an opponent lands a Blood Moon, which I thought was lights out for me.
It's only bad/awkward against grindy decks but the majority of those have fallen off the radar except for UWx and Mardu, which is why I was asking how to side against them.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
Quick question about our land setup. I noticed Ben Friedman's GP Las Vegas list is composed of 17 lands with 10 fetches, 5 shocks, and 2 basics, as opposed to 11 fetches, 4 shocks, and 2 basics. Besides expecting significant land destruction in your meta, is there any particular reason to choose one over the other?
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Modern: BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH: UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
With Faithless Looting (and more Lightning Bolts) he leans a bit more on the red than the other builds of the deck, evening out the color pie somewhat, and I think he wants his mana producing lands to account for that.
I believe the UWR matchup is harder for the friedman list since he doesn't (and really can't) run Young Peezy. That card is nuts in that matchup and I would not have won a match against that deck if I didn't have them. That's really my big issue with that list. I can see how bauble acts like a pseudo opt if you prefer to play with that, but yeah that's rough.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I found out you don't even need a spell to be cast. You can just crack a fetch, pay a bunch of life and then TBR them. It's crazy. More than likely a little too cute, and spellskite doesn't help against combo decks like Stubby D does, but something really cool I thought I would point out in case anyone wanted to try it out.
My friends told me to run a couple of these in the main event but I didn't believe them. Maybe I should have tried them out lol.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
I am a midrange player at heart, and have always loved the playsyle of Grixis Shadow--simultaneously disruptive and aggressive, able to pull off fast kills or grind out opponents. It combines several of my favorite things in Magic: disruption, removal, cantrips, Delve creatures, Snapcasters, and complicated play lines that require considerable skill to pilot optimally.
So, I finally put together the deck, but for the first time digitally for MTGO. This is my first excursion into both online play and piloting Grixis Shadow seriously with the goal of mastering the deck. I look forward to learning valuable things from this thread, and perhaps contributing some valuable input of my own at some point. Here's a link to my initial build:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/grixis-shadow-finally-built-1/
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
A general idea of how we are positioned against other midrange decks like Mardu Pyromancer and Jund, along with how to approach those matchups strategically would be great. I already have enough experience palying against traditional aggro like Burn and Affinity, tribal creature decks like Merfolk and Humans, and combo decks like Storm to handle those well. Decks like Hollow One and KCI are totally new to me though. Anyways, thanks in advance; any input is greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
--
CV
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
UR Murktide
Pauper
RW Monarch
UW Caw-Gate
UBR Affinity
While playtesting with it I came up against lantern, they landed a bridge against me G1, which is usually a concession since I don't run any MB artifact removal. I had a 1/1 shadow in play, they were unable to cast the last card in hand. Once I attacked, I cracked a fetch land, redirected to spellskite a couple of times and connected for lethal.
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Death's Shadow
Land
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Thought Scour
4 Manamorphose
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
2 Fatal Push
Sorcery
2 Faithless Looting
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Abrade
2 Radiant Flames
2 Collective Brutality
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1) Friedman's version of the deck is very aggressive and, hence, worse at playing the long game than other versions of the deck. Young Pyromancer, on the other hand, is a card that actually wants to play a longer game. It seems to be more suited for versions of the deck that morph into a control-ish deck after sideboarding. Snapcaster Mage and Kommand (which is completely absent from your list) are key cards in this secondary strategy.
2) Playing only 17 lands is already greedy and Manamorphose, unlike just about all of the alternatives (Mishra's Bauble, Serum Visions, Opt, etc.), will not help fix a one-lander.
3) Your list is a true three-color deck, compared to more traditional versions that are basically splashing red. While this might slightly improve your matchup vs. Blood Moon decks (which are usually not that scary with this much disruption), it comes at the cost of increased self-hurt in practice, which will almost inevitably translate into more game losses against hyper-aggressive decks like burn. It can also make your control matchup worse, since you will end up with a lot of dead draws in the not-so-unlikely event that your opponent locks you out of red via Field of Ruin and/or Spreading Seas.
4) With just the 4 Stubbs and no other counterspells in the 75, your disruption plan is extremely reliant on discard spells. Leyline of Sanctity and Wurmcoil Engine can and will eventually easily ruin your day.
I don't really see the advantages of this list over Traverse Shadow. The main incentives to go Grixis instead are, IMHO, the up to four Snapcaster Mages and the more diverse disruption package. Without this, I would rather have Goyfs.
Mardu Pyromancer
UWR Control
UW Control
I've seen a lot of debate about what people want to bring in/keep. I've heard arguments for keeping in TBR for all of these matchups because it's your "Splinter Twin" get out of jail free card. I guess most specifically for Mardu I was talking to Gerry T about it and he said since our deck is the beatdown he likes keeping them in and foregoing the sweepers. But maybe it's still correct to bring in 1 EE or Anger in case things go south. And mainly for mardu it's a question of what we take out. My guess is some number of spot removal spells and a Street Wraith or 2 but Street Wraith doesn't seem all that bad since it is a 3/4 with unblockable. A couple of those did help me win my match against it.
For the UWR and UW I've heard some say they take out scours and Anglers along with a couple removal spells to bring in grind cards. It's weird because you want bolts for the Planeswalkers and Push/Dismember for Colonnades so you can't completely cut either. But I'd say cut Dismember against UWR since the life is more precious and cut Push against UW since dismember can kill the Gideons. Street Wraith can also be hardcast in these games as a threat if the games tend to go long a bit, but UWR can close games fast with bolts and UW has the mana denial package so it's probably a lot harder for these to steal games than against Mardu.
The UWx matchups seem brutal for the bauble versions of this deck since they can't run YP but like before the best way to steal games is to just seize to oblivion, slam shadows and hold up stubby d until you get there.
I'm still one of the proponents for Serum and it's because of the prevalence of these decks that I still want it. Also because of the 3 easiest ways this deck just loses - Mana screw and flood (although these happen with every deck so take that for what it's worth) and not drawing a threat. Also why I added a couple lootings.
Oh yeah and I know I've been saying this for a while but play a 3rd TBR in your side. Card is straight gas.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
TBR has been treating me very well so far. Which matchups you bring in the third copy for?
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
There is a lot of mardu pyromancer in my local meta (5 people play it regularly out of ~20). Three times a week I play the local modern tourney. I feel confident in saying that I've probably played the GDS-Mardu matchup in paper more than any other person on the planet.
TBR helps quickly close out games against combo decks, tron, and Valakut before they recover from your disruption. It also helps you steal games against affinity, elves, and humans. That much is true. But do you notice something all those decks I listed have in common? They have very little in the way of cheap removal/interaction. You don't have to worry as much about getting your TBR-Shadow getting disrupted. Mardu has tons of ways to break up TBR-Shadow/Angler
Fitting in a Godless Shrine with Lingering Souls coming in from the board has greatly increased my win rate against the deck. So long as you can remove/discard the pyro, then they have to rely on their souls tokens. Which is fine for them because a lingering souls can block 5/5 anglers for days while they recover. Additionally, as you are probably aware of, often times their victory involves Souls overwhelming your 1-1 removal. Boarding in and casting souls cuts those lines off for them pretty well.
JaceBooty was already alluding to this when he said: Tron and various non-interactive combo decks like Valakut, Storm, KCI and so on. But the beatuty in TBR is that it helps you steal games against some of your bad-worst matchups. Boggles, burn, affinity, Eldrazi decks, humans, dredge and Hollow One. Also fun thing to note is that the Bolt + TBR combo can still be cast even after an opponent lands a Blood Moon, which I thought was lights out for me.
It's only bad/awkward against grindy decks but the majority of those have fallen off the radar except for UWx and Mardu, which is why I was asking how to side against them.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
Quick question about our land setup. I noticed Ben Friedman's GP Las Vegas list is composed of 17 lands with 10 fetches, 5 shocks, and 2 basics, as opposed to 11 fetches, 4 shocks, and 2 basics. Besides expecting significant land destruction in your meta, is there any particular reason to choose one over the other?
BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH:
UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569