1. Why is it uncommon to play 4 Lightning Bolt in Grixis Death's Shadow? I get the point that Fatal Push and Terminate are better "removoals" but sometimes you can play the last Bolt to the players face for the last damage instead of having a "dead card" on your hand when you control the board with a big Death's Shadow and Gurmag Angler anyway? Or is Lightning Bolt really that bad of a removal in Modern and you NEVER play it on your opponents face not even for last damage?
People stopped playing Bolt when Death Shadow (and Eldrazi) variants became more popular. It just doesn't kill as many creatures as before. Fatal Push is mostly unconditional on the majority of creatures played in modern and that's why it got swapped. Some are playing 1-2 Bolts in their list though.
2. Why does the deck play Thought Scour? I mean I think it is for Delve but aren't there better cards then Thought Scour? With Faithless Looting you can choose which cards you discard which should be better than Thought Scour then and also it has Flashback without a Snapcaster so you can use it late game also.
How about Chart a Course? You draw 2 cards and only discard 1, also works perfect for Delve but generates much more card quality and advantage... The only point about Thought Scour is it being Instant but is the Instant speed THIS important to the deck?
Thought Scour is a cantrip and therefore card neutral. It's instant speed, so we can hold it up along with Opt or Stubborn Denial to play on their turn. It's also a Dark Ritual for our delve creatures. I'd say this is probably one of the main cards that makes this deck work and I'd never replace it.
Faithless Looting has a bit more utility with flashback, but is card disadvantage until you cast both sides. Faithless Looting is also a sorcery which is not ideal. We only have 10 threats in the deck, so we won't get the full value out of Chart a Course the majority of the time. Chart being sorcery is okay, but 2 cards in the GY for 1U is not the good rate that you get with Scour. Keep in mind this deck has a very low curve by design, so adding more non-1CMC plays makes us a bit slower.
3. How is the deck in the current meta game? Worth building it? I am also very very interested in WUR Midrange (Geist, Snapcaster, Spell Queller and Counter Burn/Removal) but people told me WUR Midrange is to slow in Modern and Grixis Death's Shadow is a better deck.
It's probably just fine. Jeskai Midrange is probably just fine too. My advice is to play whatever you like, as for most people, more experience with a deck is often more important than playing the best deck in the format. If you do end up playing GDS, feel free to try these cards out and tell us what you think, but I think you'll find the deck has very few flex slots.
Thanks for the answers guys Coming from 1.5 it is quite hard to understand that Thought Scour is really that good. I mean you basically draw 1 card and put 2 cards you do not know and choose in your GY. I see the synergy but with Faithless Looting I could at least keep 2 cards instead of 1 and I can decide which cards I like to keep and which cards I discard. This is the advantage I see with Faithless Looting but I guess all it matters is Thought Scour being Instant speed and playing it at the end of the opponents turn.
Not being to choose is not as relevant as you're making it out to be. You're a Snapcaster deck, so putting an instant or sorcery in the graveyard isn't that much different than putting it into your hand. You also have access to Kolaghan's Command and Liliana the Last Hope to get back creatures. Also if you delve properly Tasigur can potentially get back stuff you want. The only real problem is milling lands you need, which is just a risk you have to live with. Also a thing you need to consider is that this is a primarily black deck, with blue as the secondary color, and red as just a splash. You usually want the first mana producing land in play to be a Watery Grave. There are going to be many games you start with a one lander. If you're running Faithless Looting over Thought Scour then that one land fetches for what? If you fetch to Loot, then you have to decide if you want to not have black for your threats and disruption, or not have blue for the Serum Visions to dig for the second land.
I mean, Shadow could play 3x bolts but the mirror seems like it'd be god awful, it won't kill any of the creatures and then you die as they push your Shadows
If the mirror weren't a thing, the deck could bolt crusaders and laugh at people
Opt let's you dig two cards deep at instant speed, Serum will draw you a card and set up your next couple of turns (or at least help you avoid two turns of trash).
So I have been testing against my buddies grixis 2 drop deck with a stock DS deck, and i'm not doing really well, feels like i am almost losing in an attrition battle and my DS just keep hitting a wall of 1/1s...Also claim into snapcaster, then claim again for dark confidant is gross...
Hello all and great thread as I'm new so thank you all for the excellent perspective(s).
whether it's back to 19 lands, bolts, 4 wraiths etc. I believe it's all relative to the fact that the core deck has been fine. When the entire field targets you it's a bad week or even months if you're not the golden horse shoe each game.
With that said, Mr. Death of the shadow Played 4 wraiths for example this weekend.
IMO it really comes down to pilot of this deck we all love. The Jessups way vs the Ari lax play vs Brad Nelson are sooooo different it's insane in terms of decisions, sequencing etc. Anyway I thought I'd throw in a macro opinion and hope to continue collaborating results and revisions.
Also- Visions vs Opt does not have a correct answer if you ask me. However, I have like you all extensively tested the two and the one thing I'm beyond sure on is on the play 4 Visions all day. I play 2 Opt MB also, however I want Visions early and Opt late/top deck. Visions has always been critical for set up for me and gives me an idea of where I'm at in the game.
Here is my list,
4x Street Wraiths
4x Snapcaster mages
4x Death Shadow
2x and 2x of delve creature
1x Liliana of the Veil
4x Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolts
1x Terminate
1x Dismember
2x Stubborn Denial
4x Visions
4x Thought Scour
4x Thoughtsieze
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x K-Command
18x Lands
Please let me know what you think.
Played a 50 man tournament last saturday and went 3-2-1.
Played a list with 2 TBR main, 2 Tombstalker, 19 lands, 0 opt, 1 Liliana TLH main and 2 Pia & Kiran Nallar on the Sideboard
1-2 vs Skred And Taxes
1-2 vs Jund Midrange
2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Auras
1-1 vs Counters Company
I draw with the company deck because I was too stubborn to concede when I should, and I really enjoyed playing Tombstalker, it won me games that I would've lost with angler such as the Auras, Skred and Jeskai Games.
Pia & Kiran was great against eh Jeskai deck but I couldn't test her much. 4cmc hurts a little, although I admit that we want her on the games that usually go long.
Played a 50 man tournament last saturday and went 3-2-1.
Played a list with 2 TBR main, 2 Tombstalker, 19 lands, 0 opt, 1 Liliana TLH main and 2 Pia & Kiran Nallar on the Sideboard
1-2 vs Skred And Taxes
1-2 vs Jund Midrange
2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Auras
1-1 vs Counters Company
I draw with the company deck because I was too stubborn to concede when I should, and I really enjoyed playing Tombstalker, it won me games that I would've lost with angler such as the Auras, Skred and Jeskai Games.
Pia & Kiran was great against eh Jeskai deck but I couldn't test her much. 4cmc hurts a little, although I admit that we want her on the games that usually go long.
Do you have situations where you cannot cast Tombstalker :
- because of its higher mana cost than Gurmag's (not enough cards to delve)?
- because of its BB in casting cost?
- because you need to keep U open to protect it with Denial so you have to lose a turn to cast it?
Played a 50 man tournament last saturday and went 3-2-1.
Played a list with 2 TBR main, 2 Tombstalker, 19 lands, 0 opt, 1 Liliana TLH main and 2 Pia & Kiran Nallar on the Sideboard
1-2 vs Skred And Taxes
1-2 vs Jund Midrange
2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Auras
1-1 vs Counters Company
I draw with the company deck because I was too stubborn to concede when I should, and I really enjoyed playing Tombstalker, it won me games that I would've lost with angler such as the Auras, Skred and Jeskai Games.
Pia & Kiran was great against eh Jeskai deck but I couldn't test her much. 4cmc hurts a little, although I admit that we want her on the games that usually go long.
Do you have situations where you cannot cast Tombstalker :
- because of its higher mana cost than Gurmag's (not enough cards to delve)?
- because of its BB in casting cost?
- because you need to keep U open to protect it with Denial so you have to lose a turn to cast it?
- Yes. You will usually always cast Stalker one turn later than Gurmag Angler because it costs 2 + delve rather than 1 plus delve
- No. With a 19-land manabase I've never had issues on casting him due to not having BB. Although I played with 2 Swamps to avoid ghost quarter/blood moon locks.
- Yes. specially early-game.
The thing is: Stalker costs 1 more than Angler and It has its downsides, I admit it and I am okay with living with those downsides.
Sometimes this one turn might cost me the game ? Yeah, I agree. But having a massive flying body is something that is worth on its own in a lot of matchups.
What is the general consensus on the number of Stubborn Denials on main deck ?
I am playing with 3 atm, and it feels great to have when you're ahead on the board but it is a bad topdeck when you are behind.
Been testing 2 hazoret the fervent in the main with decent results . any thoughts? (Running the 19 land version. 4 shad 3, snap, 3 wraith 2 tasigur, 1 angler, 2 hazoret) by turn 4 or 5 I usually have 1 or less cards. And hazoret turns dead land draws into burn spells.
People stopped playing Bolt when Death Shadow (and Eldrazi) variants became more popular. It just doesn't kill as many creatures as before. Fatal Push is mostly unconditional on the majority of creatures played in modern and that's why it got swapped. Some are playing 1-2 Bolts in their list though.
Thought Scour is a cantrip and therefore card neutral. It's instant speed, so we can hold it up along with Opt or Stubborn Denial to play on their turn. It's also a Dark Ritual for our delve creatures. I'd say this is probably one of the main cards that makes this deck work and I'd never replace it.
Faithless Looting has a bit more utility with flashback, but is card disadvantage until you cast both sides. Faithless Looting is also a sorcery which is not ideal. We only have 10 threats in the deck, so we won't get the full value out of Chart a Course the majority of the time. Chart being sorcery is okay, but 2 cards in the GY for 1U is not the good rate that you get with Scour. Keep in mind this deck has a very low curve by design, so adding more non-1CMC plays makes us a bit slower.
It's probably just fine. Jeskai Midrange is probably just fine too. My advice is to play whatever you like, as for most people, more experience with a deck is often more important than playing the best deck in the format. If you do end up playing GDS, feel free to try these cards out and tell us what you think, but I think you'll find the deck has very few flex slots.
UBR Grixis Shadow
URG Amulet Titan
Not being to choose is not as relevant as you're making it out to be. You're a Snapcaster deck, so putting an instant or sorcery in the graveyard isn't that much different than putting it into your hand. You also have access to Kolaghan's Command and Liliana the Last Hope to get back creatures. Also if you delve properly Tasigur can potentially get back stuff you want. The only real problem is milling lands you need, which is just a risk you have to live with. Also a thing you need to consider is that this is a primarily black deck, with blue as the secondary color, and red as just a splash. You usually want the first mana producing land in play to be a Watery Grave. There are going to be many games you start with a one lander. If you're running Faithless Looting over Thought Scour then that one land fetches for what? If you fetch to Loot, then you have to decide if you want to not have black for your threats and disruption, or not have blue for the Serum Visions to dig for the second land.
If the mirror weren't a thing, the deck could bolt crusaders and laugh at people
Here is his deck
4 opt
4 serum visions
4 mana leak
4 fatal push
4 thoughtseize
3 terminate
3 Claim // Fame
2 kolaghan's command
2 dispel
4 young pyromancer
4 snapcaster mage
4 dark confidant
Lands: 18
4 scalding tarn
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
2 steam vent
2 water grave
1 blood crypt
1 mountain
1 island
1 swamp
Also, what deck archetype would this count as? Control?
whether it's back to 19 lands, bolts, 4 wraiths etc. I believe it's all relative to the fact that the core deck has been fine. When the entire field targets you it's a bad week or even months if you're not the golden horse shoe each game.
With that said, Mr. Death of the shadow Played 4 wraiths for example this weekend.
IMO it really comes down to pilot of this deck we all love. The Jessups way vs the Ari lax play vs Brad Nelson are sooooo different it's insane in terms of decisions, sequencing etc. Anyway I thought I'd throw in a macro opinion and hope to continue collaborating results and revisions.
4x Street Wraiths
4x Snapcaster mages
4x Death Shadow
2x and 2x of delve creature
1x Liliana of the Veil
4x Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolts
1x Terminate
1x Dismember
2x Stubborn Denial
4x Visions
4x Thought Scour
4x Thoughtsieze
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x K-Command
18x Lands
Please let me know what you think.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Played a list with 2 TBR main, 2 Tombstalker, 19 lands, 0 opt, 1 Liliana TLH main and 2 Pia & Kiran Nallar on the Sideboard
1-2 vs Skred And Taxes
1-2 vs Jund Midrange
2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Auras
1-1 vs Counters Company
I draw with the company deck because I was too stubborn to concede when I should, and I really enjoyed playing Tombstalker, it won me games that I would've lost with angler such as the Auras, Skred and Jeskai Games.
Pia & Kiran was great against eh Jeskai deck but I couldn't test her much. 4cmc hurts a little, although I admit that we want her on the games that usually go long.
Is there a location with the most extensive sideboard plan out there?
Grixis in general have similar lists, I'd like to know whats generally boarded out for better cards
Do you have situations where you cannot cast Tombstalker :
- because of its higher mana cost than Gurmag's (not enough cards to delve)?
- because of its BB in casting cost?
- because you need to keep U open to protect it with Denial so you have to lose a turn to cast it?
- Yes. You will usually always cast Stalker one turn later than Gurmag Angler because it costs 2 + delve rather than 1 plus delve
- No. With a 19-land manabase I've never had issues on casting him due to not having BB. Although I played with 2 Swamps to avoid ghost quarter/blood moon locks.
- Yes. specially early-game.
The thing is: Stalker costs 1 more than Angler and It has its downsides, I admit it and I am okay with living with those downsides.
Sometimes this one turn might cost me the game ? Yeah, I agree. But having a massive flying body is something that is worth on its own in a lot of matchups.
What is the general consensus on the number of Stubborn Denials on main deck ?
I am playing with 3 atm, and it feels great to have when you're ahead on the board but it is a bad topdeck when you are behind.
How many of these do you guys play on maindeck ?
Opt has seemed underwhelming in the deck, I think the pro-tour players will probably have a lot of people realize serum visions is just better