Here's what I'll be trying out over the next few days. I'm working on the idea that GDS is a bit slower than DSJ, and using Thing in the Ice similar to Tarmagoyf. He starts off a bit weaker (looking at a 0/4 compared to a 3/4 on turn 2), but should come online about the same time (turn 3-4)and his flip effect is nice enough, especially if you have something like TBR in hand. The Clockspinning and Hexmage might be overkill, but we'll see how it plays out in testing. Theoretically, Hexmage is solid as a 2/1 first strike. I felt like Wraiths burned me out too fast, so I dropped them. It's an experiment, we'll see how it plays out.
That's an atrocious list dude. If you want to create a thing in the ice, vampire hexmage deck go ahead, but don't jam it in GDS please. I'm just going to point out that going 18 lands without serum visions nor street wraith is just a recipe for total disaster.
I still have Opt for draw/scry. The Vampire Hexmages might come out and be re-replaced with Tasigur, the Golden Fang's or Street Wraiths, or maybe 2 more land if it seems to be running short, though I still think that Vampire Hexmage is a solid card by itself. Playing a more classic list, at 19 land I always felt flooded. I might even replace or sideboard the Clockspinning (I really like Surgical Extraction)for a surgical extraction and a couple of Dismembers. I'm also wondering if a couple of Muddle the Mixtures might make it more consistent.
Assuming I'm going to leave Thing in the Ice in the deck, how would you work with that and what - if any - support would you put in for it?
Hey all. I am thinking of switching to a DS deck of some sort; debating between 5C and Grixis. Can anyone help me lay out some pros / cons of both versions? I've been play testing both, but I am having trouble making up my mind. I have a playset of catacombs and goyfs already, which is making me lean towards 5C.
<snip>
TL:DR
BGx Shadow
~ faster / more proactive
+ more powerful in a vacuum due to synergies
+ more busted nut draws
- easier to hate out
- higher fail rate (by comparison) due to necessary synergies
UBx Shadow
~ more controling
+ more resiliant against hate
+ lower failrate
- less busted nut draws
I disagree with some of this. I posted my response in the Jund Shadow thread (he asked the same question there) but I think it's worth restating it here. Roughly, Jund Shadow can be configured to do anything Grixis Shadow can do. You want to grind? Lingering Souls trumps Snap + stuff. Ranger of Eos is also very good. You want to be controlling or tempo? You can MD Stub and put Disdainful Stroke in the SB. Plus Tarmogoyf is better than the delve creatures in a vaccuum, Temur Battle Rage is much better in Jund builds, Jund is more threat dense due to Traverse instead of Snapcaster, and Abrupt Decay provides answers to lots of problematic things that Grixis can only hope to counter.
But all of this comes at a cost: your manabase. Jund is more susceptible to mana denial strategies when it tries to do the same things Grixis naturally does (though Ponza feels pretty favorable for 4-5c Jund Shadow IMO). Secondly, if everyone is running piles of Fatal Push, delve creatures are better than Goyfs. This is a major reason why Grixis overtook Jund initially. Push had just come out, and everyone was leaning very hard on that removal spell while cutting Terminates and Bolts. So Gurmag Angler suddenly looked like a resilient threat instead of just a generic 5/5. Then the metagame reacted to Grixis being the top dog, and Leonin Arbiter started showing up, which is bad for both shadow decks, but certainly worse for 4-5c Jund.
Since then, the format has shifted. Storm is taking advantage of all these dinky LD and/or Blood Moon decks, and stuff like Mantis Rider is exploiting the move towards Fatal Push. So people have reacted accordingly, making Tarmogoyf and 4-5 colors better options. For the moment, I think the 5 color builds that Spicklemeyer and Lantto have been playing are the best shadow builds, but that could easily change if the format shifts again.
In terms of resiliency to hate and the fail rate, I don't really see a difference between the two builds. If anything, Jund is better against GY hate because 1) Decay kills Rest in Peace, 2) Goyf is still worthwhile with Leyline of the Void in play, though occasionally you can sneak a delve creature in before other types of gy hate. In terms of fail rate, I find that Grixis fails more often because it has fewer threats - Snapcaster Mage is not a threat, but Traverse typically is. (Note that both are pretty poor vs. GY hate, though snap is slightly better). But otherwise, both decks have the same strong dependence on the graveyard, the same strong dependence on getting their life total low for Shadow, and the same susceptibility to mana denial and blood moon. 5c is more susceptible to land destruction specifically I guess, but again, Decay can save you vs. Blood Moon.
TLDR: Grixis Shadow is better to the extent that Push and mana denial strategies are prominent in the expected metagame. Other, some variant of Jund/5c Shadow is better, though which build to play is another question entirely.
I still have Opt for draw/scry. The Vampire Hexmages might come out and be re-replaced with Tasigur, the Golden Fang's or Street Wraiths, or maybe 2 more land if it seems to be running short, though I still think that Vampire Hexmage is a solid card by itself. Playing a more classic list, at 19 land I always felt flooded. I might even replace or sideboard the Clockspinning (I really like Surgical Extraction)for a surgical extraction and a couple of Dismembers. I'm also wondering if a couple of Muddle the Mixtures might make it more consistent.
Assuming I'm going to leave Thing in the Ice in the deck, how would you work with that and what - if any - support would you put in for it?
Eesh.. where to begin. Look, there's a reason why Thing in the Ice sees exactly zero play in Modern. Any slim chance it had of becoming remotely playable went right out the window when they printed Fatal Push. It does nothing when it enters, requires time and sub-par cards (Clockspinning... really?) to set it up, and then when it flips it either still does nothing or just dies to a 1-mana removal spell.
Vampire Hexmage is not a solid card by itself as it does nothing when it enters, just like Thing in the Ice. You can take down an Elspeth or Gideon in the absolute best-case scenario - Stubborn Denial does that too and is actually useful against a ton of other problematic cards, does not require you to tap out or fetch for double black, and protects your actually useful (!!!) creatures so you can close out the game.
Surgical Extraction is another card you absolutely don't want in your maindeck. Not many people even sideboard them anymore as more often than not, guess what, it does nothing.
Modern is a cutthroat format. If you're planning on playing this at the kitchen table, by all means, you could pull off some fun tricks if everything goes right. If you plan on taking this to an FNM or, god forbid, GP, then you'll just go home disappointed that you got stuck with a Clockspinning in hand with zero targets and 2 Hexmages on the board with no TiTi to actually make them somewhat useful while your opponent Cranial Plated you for 10 poison on turn 3.
I like it a lot. I personally have been pondering the idea of making GDS more aggressive and less controlish-hybrid.
TBR has continued to impress me out of the board because of what Friedman says, it gives you the "Oops i win" button which you opponents can either respect it and enter the "False Tempo" theory, or die to it. I'm really looking to move them MB.
The only card i'm not sold on is Dismember. While it powers some fast Death's Shadows, it's bad in multiples and with Snapcaster Mage, and it's mediocre against the card Death's Shadow itself. That should make the mirror a bit worse i guess?. If you are banking in TBR so much, you will lose a lot when you don't draw it.
I will test his list and see if it really matters.
PS: The list with 16 lands seems spicy and could be a even less hybrid version of Friedman's. It drops Snapcaster and plays more cantrips, that makes sense if you are planning to aggro you opponent out.
I've been playing with 2 TBR main deck in the following configuration for a while now. Really happy to see the card when I have any meaningful board presence. Works well to clock Eldrazi Tron even when cast on a Tasigur. I had similar blowout plays of attacking with a 5/5 Shadow that turned out to be lethal after the opponent declined to block. These 2 TBR copies only feel dead when you're really looking for answers. I'm unsure if the full playset of Stubborn Denials are needed to support TBR.
Tendrils just seems bad. I'd run KReturn right now.
Could you explain why tendrils is bad right now? I'm confused about running Kozilek's return or anger of the gods...
Double black can be rough, but mostly instant speed is insane vs. Affinity, and can be really good vs. CoCo, Elves, and plenty of other decks where you'd want a sweeper. Anger is better when you don't expect affinity, basically. Tendrils is probably never the best option. The main reason to want Tendrils or K Return is against affinity because you want to kill Etched Champion, but if that's what you're interested in, then K Return is much stronger vs. them since it kills manlands. Tendrils is a sort of weird hedge card because it kills Etched Champion, but also exiles stuff like Finks and Voice. I can imagine metagames where this is what you want to be doing, but I don't think we're in that metagame. Most of the Finks + Voice decks we're pretty strong against already just because we have a pile of removal and creatures bigger than theirs.
Tendrils just seems bad. I'd run KReturn right now.
Could you explain why tendrils is bad right now? I'm confused about running Kozilek's return or anger of the gods...
Double black can be rough, but mostly instant speed is insane vs. Affinity, and can be really good vs. CoCo, Elves, and plenty of other decks where you'd want a sweeper. Anger is better when you don't expect affinity, basically. Tendrils is probably never the best option.
Double red is tougher than double black, but that's about it. Oh and Tendrils hits Etched Champion.. But so does KReturn.
Tendrils just seems bad. I'd run KReturn right now.
Could you explain why tendrils is bad right now? I'm confused about running Kozilek's return or anger of the gods...
Kozilek's Return is a slam dunk against Affinity, since it kills Champion and can clean up Blink/Inkmoths. It's also pretty decent against most go-wide aggro decks.
Tendrils shines when you still want to keep some game against Etched Champion, but still want to hedge your bets against Dredge. Gravehate is everywhere right now because of Storm, so Dredge is probably also having a rough time now, making Tendrils lose some usefulness. You might as well go with K-Return right now.
I've never liked Anger of the Gods to be honest. The double Red is often a bit too rough, forcing too many fetch-shocks in a matchup that you probably want to be a little more conservative on life total. The only real payoff is that it hits Amalgam, so it's a I-win button against Dredge. Tendrils hits everything but Amalgam, which can give you a strong position against Dredge, even if you need to work a little harder for the "W". It also has a much more manageable mana cost to deal with.
Tendrils just seems bad. I'd run KReturn right now.
Could you explain why tendrils is bad right now? I'm confused about running Kozilek's return or anger of the gods...
The consensus by now regarding sweepers has been, 1-2 Kozilek's Return and 0-1 Izzet Staticaster, 0-2 Temur Battle Rage. In an open meta which you really can't predict, i recommend this configuration.
Anger of the Gods is good if you expect a lot of Dredge and CoCo. Dredge particularly gets wrecked by Anger, whereas KReturn is pretty mediocre(that's why TBR is great, it insulates you from the random nonsense this format brings). Anger is better than Return against CoCo but Return is prefectly fine, especially along Staticaster and TBR.
I played Flaying Tendrils at GP SP, and while i didn't cross a matchup i would like one of the other sweepers, it felt underpowered against decks you might want to bring a sweeper but they are not a must. For example, i played against Faeries and had to bring them because i was stone cold to Bitterblossom, they felt bad. Return at least is an instant, and Staticaster is the best at dealing with those pesky x/1s.
To round up, i think the premise behind Tendrils is being more easy on the mana base, and being somewhere in the middle of Anger and Return, but fails to be spectacular in any of those matchups. That's why people are leaning towards the red sweepers depending on the meta and add some TBR to punch through. Return is the best right now because Dredge is nowhere to be seen. You will be fine against Dredge with KReturn and TBR/Staticaster, and you will destroy Affinity which is a Tier 1 deck.
What decks do we bring in LotV from the sideboard? Building a deck and I’m trying to decide whether or not I need to include them / what I could replace them with.
Dismember offers flexibility. It also makes the mirror better by killing Tasigur and the Gurmag Angler.
And at least its not completly dead game 1 against control deck and combo, where you can target your own death shadow to make it grow faster.
I would argue it just evens out in the mirror since it only kills the delve creatures and not shadow whereas terminate hits both. I think dismember is doubling down too hard on the life loss plan personally and is extremely awkward to flashback.
Dismember is a house in combat though. Turn a 1/1 or 2/2 Shadow into a 6/6 or greater, kill one attacker, block the other, untap and represent 12+ Damage with TBR.
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I've been running 3 Push, 2 Terminate and 1 Dismember for about 6 weeks and have found it to be just the right numbers for me. Dismember is a great card, and helps mess up the opponent's combat math in situations where it the opposing creature has toughness greater than 5.
I think having two in the deck is a liability though.
wow I was always wondering why people were running Kozileks return never knew it was an instant. I still run tendrils mostly because I didnt want to shell out $10 during it's heyday in standard.
This thread is full of idiots... Lightning Bolt is NOT being reprinted.
Many times has a writer in Wizards said so, because of the plain and simple fact that it's too powerful for what it costs. x/3 creatures shouldn't be able to die at instant speed for one mana without a signifigant drawback. (like PTE giving you a land)
I absolutely guarantee that LB will not be printed in M10, and you can quote me on that.
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That's an atrocious list dude. If you want to create a thing in the ice, vampire hexmage deck go ahead, but don't jam it in GDS please. I'm just going to point out that going 18 lands without serum visions nor street wraith is just a recipe for total disaster.
Assuming I'm going to leave Thing in the Ice in the deck, how would you work with that and what - if any - support would you put in for it?
I disagree with some of this. I posted my response in the Jund Shadow thread (he asked the same question there) but I think it's worth restating it here. Roughly, Jund Shadow can be configured to do anything Grixis Shadow can do. You want to grind? Lingering Souls trumps Snap + stuff. Ranger of Eos is also very good. You want to be controlling or tempo? You can MD Stub and put Disdainful Stroke in the SB. Plus Tarmogoyf is better than the delve creatures in a vaccuum, Temur Battle Rage is much better in Jund builds, Jund is more threat dense due to Traverse instead of Snapcaster, and Abrupt Decay provides answers to lots of problematic things that Grixis can only hope to counter.
But all of this comes at a cost: your manabase. Jund is more susceptible to mana denial strategies when it tries to do the same things Grixis naturally does (though Ponza feels pretty favorable for 4-5c Jund Shadow IMO). Secondly, if everyone is running piles of Fatal Push, delve creatures are better than Goyfs. This is a major reason why Grixis overtook Jund initially. Push had just come out, and everyone was leaning very hard on that removal spell while cutting Terminates and Bolts. So Gurmag Angler suddenly looked like a resilient threat instead of just a generic 5/5. Then the metagame reacted to Grixis being the top dog, and Leonin Arbiter started showing up, which is bad for both shadow decks, but certainly worse for 4-5c Jund.
Since then, the format has shifted. Storm is taking advantage of all these dinky LD and/or Blood Moon decks, and stuff like Mantis Rider is exploiting the move towards Fatal Push. So people have reacted accordingly, making Tarmogoyf and 4-5 colors better options. For the moment, I think the 5 color builds that Spicklemeyer and Lantto have been playing are the best shadow builds, but that could easily change if the format shifts again.
In terms of resiliency to hate and the fail rate, I don't really see a difference between the two builds. If anything, Jund is better against GY hate because 1) Decay kills Rest in Peace, 2) Goyf is still worthwhile with Leyline of the Void in play, though occasionally you can sneak a delve creature in before other types of gy hate. In terms of fail rate, I find that Grixis fails more often because it has fewer threats - Snapcaster Mage is not a threat, but Traverse typically is. (Note that both are pretty poor vs. GY hate, though snap is slightly better). But otherwise, both decks have the same strong dependence on the graveyard, the same strong dependence on getting their life total low for Shadow, and the same susceptibility to mana denial and blood moon. 5c is more susceptible to land destruction specifically I guess, but again, Decay can save you vs. Blood Moon.
TLDR: Grixis Shadow is better to the extent that Push and mana denial strategies are prominent in the expected metagame. Other, some variant of Jund/5c Shadow is better, though which build to play is another question entirely.
Eesh.. where to begin. Look, there's a reason why Thing in the Ice sees exactly zero play in Modern. Any slim chance it had of becoming remotely playable went right out the window when they printed Fatal Push. It does nothing when it enters, requires time and sub-par cards (Clockspinning... really?) to set it up, and then when it flips it either still does nothing or just dies to a 1-mana removal spell.
Vampire Hexmage is not a solid card by itself as it does nothing when it enters, just like Thing in the Ice. You can take down an Elspeth or Gideon in the absolute best-case scenario - Stubborn Denial does that too and is actually useful against a ton of other problematic cards, does not require you to tap out or fetch for double black, and protects your actually useful (!!!) creatures so you can close out the game.
Surgical Extraction is another card you absolutely don't want in your maindeck. Not many people even sideboard them anymore as more often than not, guess what, it does nothing.
Modern is a cutthroat format. If you're planning on playing this at the kitchen table, by all means, you could pull off some fun tricks if everything goes right. If you plan on taking this to an FNM or, god forbid, GP, then you'll just go home disappointed that you got stuck with a Clockspinning in hand with zero targets and 2 Hexmages on the board with no TiTi to actually make them somewhat useful while your opponent Cranial Plated you for 10 poison on turn 3.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
TBR has continued to impress me out of the board because of what Friedman says, it gives you the "Oops i win" button which you opponents can either respect it and enter the "False Tempo" theory, or die to it. I'm really looking to move them MB.
The only card i'm not sold on is Dismember. While it powers some fast Death's Shadows, it's bad in multiples and with Snapcaster Mage, and it's mediocre against the card Death's Shadow itself. That should make the mirror a bit worse i guess?. If you are banking in TBR so much, you will lose a lot when you don't draw it.
I will test his list and see if it really matters.
PS: The list with 16 lands seems spicy and could be a even less hybrid version of Friedman's. It drops Snapcaster and plays more cantrips, that makes sense if you are planning to aggro you opponent out.
4 Death's Shadow
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Street Wraith
Instants (17)
4 Thought Scour
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Opt
2 Terminate
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Serum Visions
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
Lands(18)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Blood Crypt
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Collective Brutality
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Young Pyromancer
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Could you explain why tendrils is bad right now? I'm confused about running Kozilek's return or anger of the gods...
I've been playing with 2 TBR main deck in the following configuration for a while now. Really happy to see the card when I have any meaningful board presence. Works well to clock Eldrazi Tron even when cast on a Tasigur. I had similar blowout plays of attacking with a 5/5 Shadow that turned out to be lethal after the opponent declined to block. These 2 TBR copies only feel dead when you're really looking for answers. I'm unsure if the full playset of Stubborn Denials are needed to support TBR.
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
Creatures (16)
4 Death's Shadow
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Temur Battle Rage
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Collective Brutality
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Ceremonious Rejection
BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH:
UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
Double black can be rough, but mostly instant speed is insane vs. Affinity, and can be really good vs. CoCo, Elves, and plenty of other decks where you'd want a sweeper. Anger is better when you don't expect affinity, basically. Tendrils is probably never the best option. The main reason to want Tendrils or K Return is against affinity because you want to kill Etched Champion, but if that's what you're interested in, then K Return is much stronger vs. them since it kills manlands. Tendrils is a sort of weird hedge card because it kills Etched Champion, but also exiles stuff like Finks and Voice. I can imagine metagames where this is what you want to be doing, but I don't think we're in that metagame. Most of the Finks + Voice decks we're pretty strong against already just because we have a pile of removal and creatures bigger than theirs.
Double red is tougher than double black, but that's about it. Oh and Tendrils hits Etched Champion.. But so does KReturn.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Kozilek's Return is a slam dunk against Affinity, since it kills Champion and can clean up Blink/Inkmoths. It's also pretty decent against most go-wide aggro decks.
Tendrils shines when you still want to keep some game against Etched Champion, but still want to hedge your bets against Dredge. Gravehate is everywhere right now because of Storm, so Dredge is probably also having a rough time now, making Tendrils lose some usefulness. You might as well go with K-Return right now.
I've never liked Anger of the Gods to be honest. The double Red is often a bit too rough, forcing too many fetch-shocks in a matchup that you probably want to be a little more conservative on life total. The only real payoff is that it hits Amalgam, so it's a I-win button against Dredge. Tendrils hits everything but Amalgam, which can give you a strong position against Dredge, even if you need to work a little harder for the "W". It also has a much more manageable mana cost to deal with.
The consensus by now regarding sweepers has been, 1-2 Kozilek's Return and 0-1 Izzet Staticaster, 0-2 Temur Battle Rage. In an open meta which you really can't predict, i recommend this configuration.
Anger of the Gods is good if you expect a lot of Dredge and CoCo. Dredge particularly gets wrecked by Anger, whereas KReturn is pretty mediocre(that's why TBR is great, it insulates you from the random nonsense this format brings). Anger is better than Return against CoCo but Return is prefectly fine, especially along Staticaster and TBR.
I played Flaying Tendrils at GP SP, and while i didn't cross a matchup i would like one of the other sweepers, it felt underpowered against decks you might want to bring a sweeper but they are not a must. For example, i played against Faeries and had to bring them because i was stone cold to Bitterblossom, they felt bad. Return at least is an instant, and Staticaster is the best at dealing with those pesky x/1s.
To round up, i think the premise behind Tendrils is being more easy on the mana base, and being somewhere in the middle of Anger and Return, but fails to be spectacular in any of those matchups. That's why people are leaning towards the red sweepers depending on the meta and add some TBR to punch through. Return is the best right now because Dredge is nowhere to be seen. You will be fine against Dredge with KReturn and TBR/Staticaster, and you will destroy Affinity which is a Tier 1 deck.
And at least its not completly dead game 1 against control deck and combo, where you can target your own death shadow to make it grow faster.
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Feel free to PM me about Affinity decks in any format!
I think having two in the deck is a liability though.
“Homo homini lupus est.”