Picked up this deck a month ago and having a blast with it! At 19-5-1 so far over 5 FNMs as well as a PPTQ win.
Seems to me like one of the biggest choices in deck building is whether or not to go for Liliana of the Veil main and what number. I've tried zero and recently two main which I've liked. Does inclusion of Opt mean we want to go for a less tap out approach with perhaps more Stubborn Denials main for the turn 1s against Tron/Burn and such as well as less Lilianas? Or is it too much of a minor detail to affect the overall composition of the deck rather than just being good by itself alongside of or replacing Serum Visions?
I haven't been very enthused with Liliana in the main. I do like the build I've been working on with 3 Stubborn in the main. It helps us protect our threats a lot.
So how do you guys feel about a street wraithless shadow? I've been thinking about playing a 16 land variant with young pyromancer and more cantrips over some number of fetches and street wraiths. I feel like street wraith has gotten worse now that most decks are equipped to handle our fast deaths shadow. Most of the time it feels bad when you don't actively have some number of shadow and I instantly board them out first in most matchups , I've been on grixis deaths shadow for about 8 months now. With the release of opt I've been testing it in a 14 land shell (currently with wraith) and adding two pyromancer cutting 1 snap , with 20 cantrips including street wraith and the deck just churns and finds whatever you need. I feel like street wraith is just a mediocre card at this point and I'm wondering if anyone else has cut them in favor of other cards. Opinions ?
100+ games , you only need one mana in your opening hand to function (14 land version with wraiths) I have 4x sleight 4x opt 4x wraith 4x serum 4x thought scour 8 fetches 6 non fetch. I've done zero testing with a wraithless version outside of a random decklist I threw together and played a few matches with, the idea is to take your first few turns finding the lands you need and playing out your disruption , then finding specific cards to tilt the MU in your favor. The hands with multiple lands feel broken , and imo your midgame is much stronger due to the amount of cantrips. This is the wraith version , wraithless I feel like would be similar in theory , just not aggressively killing yourself early on.
I've also been playing the ari lax 4x sleight version for awhile now , I think it's just the better deck when compared to the stock 18-19 land versions.
So how do you guys feel about a street wraithless shadow? I've been thinking about playing a 16 land variant with young pyromancer and more cantrips over some number of fetches and street wraiths. I feel like street wraith has gotten worse now that most decks are equipped to handle our fast deaths shadow. Most of the time it feels bad when you don't actively have some number of shadow and I instantly board them out first in most matchups , I've been on grixis deaths shadow for about 8 months now. With the release of opt I've been testing it in a 14 land shell (currently with wraith) and adding two pyromancer cutting 1 snap , with 20 cantrips including street wraith and the deck just churns and finds whatever you need. I feel like street wraith is just a mediocre card at this point and I'm wondering if anyone else has cut them in favor of other cards. Opinions ?
100+ games , you only need one mana in your opening hand to function (14 land version with wraiths) I have 4x sleight 4x opt 4x wraith 4x serum 4x thought scour 8 fetches 6 non fetch. I've done zero testing with a wraithless version outside of a random decklist I threw together and played a few matches with, the idea is to take your first few turns finding the lands you need and playing out your disruption , then finding specific cards to tilt the MU in your favor. The hands with multiple lands feel broken , and imo your midgame is much stronger due to the amount of cantrips. This is the wraith version , wraithless I feel like would be similar in theory , just not aggressively killing yourself early on.
I've also been playing the ari lax 4x sleight version for awhile now , I think it's just the better deck when compared to the stock 18-19 land versions.
The big downsides for Ari Lax's 4 Sleight / 16 cantrip / 17 land version were always 1) Chalice, and 2) mana denial strategies. You end up much more susceptible to both. In an open metagame, I like it better than the stock 19 land version. But IMO in the MTGO/SCG open/GP metagames there's too much Spreading Seas, Blood Moon, Smallpox, Stone Rain, Ghost Quarter, etc., running around.
Edit: to be clear, I thought Lax's list was great until the format adjusted to the presence of Death's Shadow. If your local metagame has not, it might be your best bet.
But as far as a 16 cantrip build with Opt replacing Street Wraith, you still have both problems. In fact, you're even worse vs. Chalice now. But the biggest problem is that your Death's Shadows will be far less explosive. This will hurt a lot in matchups like Storm and Valakut. So will having to spend mana to cantrip a higher percentage of the time - e.g. when you're digging for lands, but you also need to cast Thoughtseize or a threat. Then adding Young Pyromancer on top of it is sketchy. YP is essentially a 3 mana card. You can play him on 2, but you really want to play him then get immediate value. But cutting lands and adding cantrips makes it harder to hit 3 mana on turn 3 consistently without spend all/most of your mana on your early turns cantriping. Part of the beauty of Grixis Shadow is that it gets to interact on turns 1, 2, and sometimes 3, then cast a threat for 1 mana with more interaction held back.
Your 14 land, 20 cantrip version is insane to me. You have about a 13.9% to have an opening hand with 0 lands. If only 13 of your lands are blue sources (say you play a blood crypt), you have about a 16.3% chance to have an opening hand with 0 blue sources, which is almost certainly a mulligan. At 12 blue sources, it's 19.1%. That's a whole lot of mulligans due to not having enough land in the deck. Plus, so many of your games you have to spend all of your mana in the first 1-3 turns looking for another land. Modern punishes people who don't interact with their opponent in the first couple turns.
So how do you guys feel about a street wraithless shadow? I've been thinking about playing a 16 land variant with young pyromancer and more cantrips over some number of fetches and street wraiths. I feel like street wraith has gotten worse now that most decks are equipped to handle our fast deaths shadow. Most of the time it feels bad when you don't actively have some number of shadow and I instantly board them out first in most matchups , I've been on grixis deaths shadow for about 8 months now. With the release of opt I've been testing it in a 14 land shell (currently with wraith) and adding two pyromancer cutting 1 snap , with 20 cantrips including street wraith and the deck just churns and finds whatever you need. I feel like street wraith is just a mediocre card at this point and I'm wondering if anyone else has cut them in favor of other cards. Opinions ?
100+ games , you only need one mana in your opening hand to function (14 land version with wraiths) I have 4x sleight 4x opt 4x wraith 4x serum 4x thought scour 8 fetches 6 non fetch. I've done zero testing with a wraithless version outside of a random decklist I threw together and played a few matches with, the idea is to take your first few turns finding the lands you need and playing out your disruption , then finding specific cards to tilt the MU in your favor. The hands with multiple lands feel broken , and imo your midgame is much stronger due to the amount of cantrips. This is the wraith version , wraithless I feel like would be similar in theory , just not aggressively killing yourself early on.
I've also been playing the ari lax 4x sleight version for awhile now , I think it's just the better deck when compared to the stock 18-19 land versions.
The big downsides for Ari Lax's 4 Sleight / 16 cantrip / 17 land version were always 1) Chalice, and 2) mana denial strategies. You end up much more susceptible to both. In an open metagame, I like it better than the stock 19 land version. But IMO in the MTGO/SCG open/GP metagames there's too much Spreading Seas, Blood Moon, Smallpox, Stone Rain, Ghost Quarter, etc., running around.
Edit: to be clear, I thought Lax's list was great until the format adjusted to the presence of Death's Shadow. If your local metagame has not, it might be your best bet.
But as far as a 16 cantrip build with Opt replacing Street Wraith, you still have both problems. In fact, you're even worse vs. Chalice now. But the biggest problem is that your Death's Shadows will be far less explosive. This will hurt a lot in matchups like Storm and Valakut. So will having to spend mana to cantrip a higher percentage of the time - e.g. when you're digging for lands, but you also need to cast Thoughtseize or a threat. Then adding Young Pyromancer on top of it is sketchy. YP is essentially a 3 mana card. You can play him on 2, but you really want to play him then get immediate value. But cutting lands and adding cantrips makes it harder to hit 3 mana on turn 3 consistently without spend all/most of your mana on your early turns cantriping. Part of the beauty of Grixis Shadow is that it gets to interact on turns 1, 2, and sometimes 3, then cast a threat for 1 mana with more interaction held back.
Your 14 land, 20 cantrip version is insane to me. You have about a 13.9% to have an opening hand with 0 lands. If only 13 of your lands are blue sources (say you play a blood crypt), you have about a 16.3% chance to have an opening hand with 0 blue sources, which is almost certainly a mulligan. At 12 blue sources, it's 19.1%. That's a whole lot of mulligans due to not having enough land in the deck. Plus, so many of your games you have to spend all of your mana in the first 1-3 turns looking for another land. Modern punishes people who don't interact with their opponent in the first couple turns.
I agree. So, I feel like we should still be playing wraith; a lot of builds have been playing 1-2 Sleight of Hand, and I feel like those copies should be replaced by Opt.that puts our cantrip suite at:
4 Wraith
4 Serum
4 Scour
2 Opt
In my testing this has felt amazing, and also lets us keep hands more often. Opt has also felt superb in the mid game because it allows us to choose card quality at instant speed.
I agree. So, I feel like we should still be playing wraith; a lot of builds have been playing 1-2 Sleight of Hand, and I feel like those copies should be replaced by Opt.that puts our cantrip suite at:
4 Wraith
4 Serum
4 Scour
2 Opt
In my testing this has felt amazing, and also lets us keep hands more often. Opt has also felt superb in the mid game because it allows us to choose card quality at instant speed.
I haven't tested the 2 Sleight builds or Opt yet, but this seems reasonable to me. I could see shaving 1 Street Wraith even. I kind of want to get YP into the MD just to have another threat, especially one that is not susceptible to GY hate. (I like P&K much better than YP in the SB though) And shaving a Wraith for an Opt or some such makes that a little better.
I did some initial play testing running two opts and 4 visions in a 17 land shell and it felt pretty good. Need to put it through the races abit more but initial testing was very promising. Being Turn 1 holding blue up for stubborn denial, opt or thoughtscour depending on matchup feels fantastic
chalice is a 4 of in a 60 card deck , the chances of you being able to disrupt/counter it on turn 2 are higher than them having it out. The 16 land version with pyro wound up just being really good in grindy MU. The 14 land version was fine though. I'm personally on a 16 land version in UB with 4 basics 8 fetches and 4 watery graves. It seems really good. My issue with stock shadow is people you are playing against know the entire decklist at this point , and I feel like innovating is a huge part of modern that people are quick to dismiss, I like the stock list and I think it's good , 18 lands 1 sleight is what I would take to a larger event at this point in time, possibly one LOTV main. it's less the eldrazi matchups and the mana denial strategies you lose to than the burn MU with so many cantrips you wind up spinning wheels while they just hit you every turn. I never personally had an issue playing against UW/Taxes, their plans are just generically good against ours since we are essentially cheating on mana by using life and the graveyard , I feel like instead of trying to beat those guys you just try to play optimally and hope to navigate the MU into a winning scenario. Chalice on 1 is going to screw all variants of shadow , especially now that kommand is commonly a 1 of. The games are best of 3 , when you have answers in your board to chalice and 20 ways to dig for them, it becomes a way less scary card. By force is very good and playing multiples in the sideboard is decent. I'm personally more worried about Rest In Peace decks because grixis always has a hard time dealing with enchantments. Perilous voyage seems very good though
Hi, I'm looking into getting back into Modern again after a hiatus and was thinking of trying this deck out since Grixis Control seems out of flavor/meta. My main question is what will deck lists look like now that Opt is now in Modern?
Hi, I'm looking into getting back into Modern again after a hiatus and was thinking of trying this deck out since Grixis Control seems out of flavor/meta. My main question is what will deck lists look like now that Opt is now in Modern?
Hi, I'm looking into getting back into Modern again after a hiatus and was thinking of trying this deck out since Grixis Control seems out of flavor/meta. My main question is what will deck lists look like now that Opt is now in Modern?
I believe it's still to early to answer that question. Many People (including me) are high on trying out opt but there are no results yet to back this up. I'm testing a 4/4/2 Split on Serum/Scour/Opt with 3 Wraiths and i like it but i feel like there won't ever be a "stock" list for this deck because some mainboard choices will always be in flux depending on the playstyle and expected meta.
In any case the differences are small. Pick a stock looking list and start playing games. If you end up needing opts later or deciding you didn't need them after all, you can always make that change.
Thoughts: Maybe replace one Push with a third Stubborn denial main, which would change one Stubborn from the SB into a second Rejection. Am not sure about the YPs yet.
What are your thoughts about this list, my meta consists mainly of: Control, Affinity, CoCO decks, Scapeshift, some ELves, burn and a little bit GBx.
Also, is my SB plan for these matchups correct?
Burn: Cut 4 Street Wraith and 2 TS for 2 CB, 2 Kozilek's and 2 Stubborn?
Control: Cut 2 Push 2 Stubborn and 1 Terminate, 1 Gurmag Angler, Bring in 2 YP, 2 Stroke, 2 CB?
Affinity: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 Gurmag, 2 Stubborn, Bring in 2 Kozilek, 2 LtLH, 1 Rejection?
CoCo decks: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 KCommand, 2 Stubborn, bring in 2 KOzilek, 2 CB, 1 LtLH
Scapeshift: Cut 4 Pushes, 2 KCommand, Bring in 2 Stokes, 2 CB, 2 Stubborn
Elves: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 Street Wraith, 2 Stubborn, 1 KCommand, bring in 2 Kozilek, 2 CB, 2 LtLH
GBx: Cut 2 IOK, 2 TS, bring in 2 LtLH, 2 YP.
Thanks for any feedback on this.
EDIT: Oh and Verdant Catacombs are replacements for Scalding Tarns, since I don't have them.
Thoughts: Maybe replace one Push with a third Stubborn denial main, which would change one Stubborn from the SB into a second Rejection. Am not sure about the YPs yet.
What are your thoughts about this list, my meta consists mainly of: Control, Affinity, CoCO decks, Scapeshift, some ELves, burn and a little bit GBx.
Also, is my SB plan for these matchups correct?
Burn: Cut 4 Street Wraith and 2 TS for 2 CB, 2 Kozilek's and 2 Stubborn?
Control: Cut 2 Push 2 Stubborn and 1 Terminate, 1 Gurmag Angler, Bring in 2 YP, 2 Stroke, 2 CB?
Affinity: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 Gurmag, 2 Stubborn, Bring in 2 Kozilek, 2 LtLH, 1 Rejection?
CoCo decks: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 KCommand, 2 Stubborn, bring in 2 KOzilek, 2 CB, 1 LtLH
Scapeshift: Cut 4 Pushes, 2 KCommand, Bring in 2 Stokes, 2 CB, 2 Stubborn
Elves: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 Street Wraith, 2 Stubborn, 1 KCommand, bring in 2 Kozilek, 2 CB, 2 LtLH
GBx: Cut 2 IOK, 2 TS, bring in 2 LtLH, 2 YP.
Thanks for any feedback on this.
EDIT: Oh and Verdant Catacombs are replacements for Scalding Tarns, since I don't have them.
Liliana of the Veil is not particularly good in that meta. It really shines vs. other midrange decks, but it's pretty bad vs Coco, Affinity, and Elves. It's decent against control and better than nothing against Scapeshift though. Consider Liliana, the Last Hope in that slot instead, or perhaps something completely different. Adding 1-2 MD Mana Leak would help your Scapeshift matchup, for example, and they have a low floor in most other matchups.
I have a lot of comments about the SB plans, but notably I'm not entirely sure what to do with Young Pyromancer. I usually have Pia and Kiran Nalaar in that spot instead. I think I prefer YP as a MD card if it's in the 75 at all, but I haven't testing it enough to be sure.
I'd leave at least one K Command in vs Scapeshift (assuming it's GR Scapeshift) - they tend to have Chalice of the Void in their SB, and at worst it can help attrition them out. I'd probably cut the LotV instead. There's also an argument for -2 Snap, +2 YP just because you need to clock them. Or squeezing in the YPs some other way.
I'm not sure about bringing in Kozilek's Return vs Burn. I think I'd rather have the Thoughtseizes. Young Pyromancer, again, could be brought in as a clock / speed bump. Probably in place of some Thoughtseizes.
I wouldn't cut any threats vs. Control. Cutting Stubborn Denials also seems bad, though I wouldn't max out on them either. Stroke doesn't even hit stuff like Supreme Verdict or 3 mana Gideon (though you didn't mention which control deck).
I wouldn't cut Gurmags vs. Affinity - you need the threats. Or the 2 Stubborns. They counter Plating, can slow down some T1 nut draws, and counter Galvanic Blast which often kills you. Cut the Street Wraiths, and you can additionally shave Thoughtseizes for more room. LtlH is only OK here, so bringing both in may not be the best (most of their X/1s are manlands).
Bring in both LtlH vs. CoCo decks. It's your best card. Leave a couple Stubborn Denials in too - they have CoCo, possibly Chord/Eldritch Evolution, and they'll have paths postboard. You can cut some Street Wraiths here because they game will typically go long and your have to be careful with your life total. The matchup tends to be grindy, so I like leaving K Commands in too. Maybe at least one. Young Pyromancer also seems decent here. If you go -4 Wraith, -1 LotV, -1 K Command, then +2 LtlH, +2 K Return, +2 Collective Brutality, I think you're in a decent spot. Not sure how to work YP in there though.
Vs. Elves, you can cut more street Wraiths for the Young Pyromancers. This is the perfect matchup for Peezy, and you can't really afford the life loss of Wraith.
Vs. GBx, the games will go long so shaving 2 street wraith is prudent. Also, they have a ton of removal along with Decays, so cutting Denials is is good idea. I'd leave in all of the discard spells. (I know this is counterintuitive for midrange mirrors in general, but Shadow plays out just a little bit differently since you can kill them so quickly. And discard is your best answer to things like Decay and LotV.)
Liliana of the Veil is not particularly good in that meta. It really shines vs. other midrange decks, but it's pretty bad vs Coco, Affinity, and Elves. It's decent against control and better than nothing against Scapeshift though. Consider Liliana, the Last Hope in that slot instead, or perhaps something completely different. Adding 1-2 MD Mana Leak would help your Scapeshift matchup, for example, and they have a low floor in most other matchups.
I have a lot of comments about the SB plans, but notably I'm not entirely sure what to do with Young Pyromancer. I usually have Pia and Kiran Nalaar in that spot instead. I think I prefer YP as a MD card if it's in the 75 at all, but I haven't testing it enough to be sure.
I'd leave at least one K Command in vs Scapeshift (assuming it's GR Scapeshift) - they tend to have Chalice of the Void in their SB, and at worst it can help attrition them out. I'd probably cut the LotV instead. There's also an argument for -2 Snap, +2 YP just because you need to clock them. Or squeezing in the YPs some other way.
I'm not sure about bringing in Kozilek's Return vs Burn. I think I'd rather have the Thoughtseizes. Young Pyromancer, again, could be brought in as a clock / speed bump. Probably in place of some Thoughtseizes.
I wouldn't cut any threats vs. Control. Cutting Stubborn Denials also seems bad, though I wouldn't max out on them either. Stroke doesn't even hit stuff like Supreme Verdict or 3 mana Gideon (though you didn't mention which control deck).
I wouldn't cut Gurmags vs. Affinity - you need the threats. Or the 2 Stubborns. They counter Plating, can slow down some T1 nut draws, and counter Galvanic Blast which often kills you. Cut the Street Wraiths, and you can additionally shave Thoughtseizes for more room. LtlH is only OK here, so bringing both in may not be the best (most of their X/1s are manlands).
Bring in both LtlH vs. CoCo decks. It's your best card. Leave a couple Stubborn Denials in too - they have CoCo, possibly Chord/Eldritch Evolution, and they'll have paths postboard. You can cut some Street Wraiths here because they game will typically go long and your have to be careful with your life total. The matchup tends to be grindy, so I like leaving K Commands in too. Maybe at least one. Young Pyromancer also seems decent here. If you go -4 Wraith, -1 LotV, -1 K Command, then +2 LtlH, +2 K Return, +2 Collective Brutality, I think you're in a decent spot. Not sure how to work YP in there though.
Vs. Elves, you can cut more street Wraiths for the Young Pyromancers. This is the perfect matchup for Peezy, and you can't really afford the life loss of Wraith.
Vs. GBx, the games will go long so shaving 2 street wraith is prudent. Also, they have a ton of removal along with Decays, so cutting Denials is is good idea. I'd leave in all of the discard spells. (I know this is counterintuitive for midrange mirrors in general, but Shadow plays out just a little bit differently since you can kill them so quickly. And discard is your best answer to things like Decay and LotV.)
Thanks for the extensive response. Yeah about YP, I would really like to run him to have an option to go wide, but not sure since mostly it doesn't quite fit in concerning SB in various matchups. But I have seen him in SBs already, so thats why I thought about him.
On TS vs. Burn, the thing is that I am in strong believe that TS is more or less a card that reads: Pay 1 mana, your opponent needs one less card to kill you, and you discard a card from the opponent, which mostly equals to: Pay 1 Mana, do nothing. I think its a big misconception that taking a Boros Charm with TS "heals" yourself for 2 life. So I would basically like to cut all of them vs. Burn. I played sweepers in Jund vs. Burn in the past, its decent, but not sure it workes out the same way in Grixis DS.
The SB plan vs. Control is the one I am most uncertain of. Not sure if I want Stubborns or Strokes, for the reasons you mentioned. I thought about cutting one Angler to leverage possible GY hate. It should be geared vs. UW Control and Jeskai Control.
I chose to cut Gurmags vs. Affinity mostly due to Paulor Vitor Damo Da Rosa's Article on Channel Fireball, and I think it makes kinda sense, but not sure. Here is the link: Click.
I often saw Grixis DS players leave in Denials against GBx to have an answer to LoTV. I always thought personally that this is a mistake, but thats what basically every Grixis DS player did who I met.
Thanks for your tips on sideboarding, I will have a look at them again and rework my plan!
Thanks for the extensive response. Yeah about YP, I would really like to run him to have an option to go wide, but not sure since mostly it doesn't quite fit in concerning SB in various matchups. But I have seen him in SBs already, so thats why I thought about him.
On TS vs. Burn, the thing is that I am in strong believe that TS is more or less a card that reads: Pay 1 mana, your opponent needs one less card to kill you, and you discard a card from the opponent, which mostly equals to: Pay 1 Mana, do nothing. I think its a big misconception that taking a Boros Charm with TS "heals" yourself for 2 life. So I would basically like to cut all of them vs. Burn. I played sweepers in Jund vs. Burn in the past, its decent, but not sure it workes out the same way in Grixis DS.
The SB plan vs. Control is the one I am most uncertain of. Not sure if I want Stubborns or Strokes, for the reasons you mentioned. I thought about cutting one Angler to leverage possible GY hate. It should be geared vs. UW Control and Jeskai Control.
I chose to cut Gurmags vs. Affinity mostly due to Paulor Vitor Damo Da Rosa's Article on Channel Fireball, and I think it makes kinda sense, but not sure. Here is the link: Click.
I often saw Grixis DS players leave in Denials against GBx to have an answer to LoTV. I always thought personally that this is a mistake, but thats what basically every Grixis DS player did who I met.
Thanks for your tips on sideboarding, I will have a look at them again and rework my plan!
No problem!
Thoughtseize is better than that vs. burn. Postboard they'll have Path and Deflecting Palm, and killing them with a Shadow is priority 1 in the matchup. Taking an Eidolon is also very good. And, yes, taking a Boros Charm does essentially gain you 2 life if they would have been able to resolve it otherwise - that's just the math. Not that Thoughtseize is good in the matchup, but it has its uses - and it's also the most skill testing card in your deck. Knowing when to cast it is very difficult. If we had more real cards to bring in vs them, it would definitely be the next cut after the Street Wraiths. But Kozilek's Return is not a real card in the matchup. We already have a pile of removal and not a ton of targets, and Return costs a whopping 3 mana in a matchup that can end before you can cast it. And most burn decks are lighter on creatures these days (not that K Return kills Nacatl, but the kitty does stretch your spot removal more). K Return often can't even kill Swiftspear.
I didn't understand PV's SB plan vs affinity when he published that article, and I don't understand it now. Cutting Stubs seems like it could be defensible, but I die to Galvanic Blast a lot vs them. Cutting a clock just doesn't make sense to me though. I get Blood Mooned far more often than I get Rest in Peaced out of affinity.
Edit: as a side note, if there's no Tron in your meta, you can switch the Strokes to Flashfreezes and have essentially the same spell vs Valakut, but more anti-burn cards in your SB.
Thoughtseize is better than that vs. burn. Postboard they'll have Path and Deflecting Palm, and killing them with a Shadow is priority 1 in the matchup. Taking an Eidolon is also very good. And, yes, taking a Boros Charm does essentially gain you 2 life if they would have been able to resolve it otherwise - that's just the math. Not that Thoughtseize is good in the matchup, but it has its uses - and it's also the most skill testing card in your deck. Knowing when to cast it is very difficult. If we had more real cards to bring in vs them, it would definitely be the next cut after the Street Wraiths. But Kozilek's Return is not a real card in the matchup. We already have a pile of removal and not a ton of targets, and Return costs a whopping 3 mana in a matchup that can end before you can cast it. And most burn decks are lighter on creatures these days (not that K Return kills Nacatl, but the kitty does stretch your spot removal more). K Return often can't even kill Swiftspear.
I didn't understand PV's SB plan vs affinity when he published that article, and I don't understand it now. Cutting Stubs seems like it could be defensible, but I die to Galvanic Blast a lot vs them. Cutting a clock just doesn't make sense to me though. I get Blood Mooned far more often than I get Rest in Peaced out of affinity.
Edit: as a side note, if there's no Tron in your meta, you can switch the Strokes to Flashfreezes and have essentially the same spell vs Valakut, but more anti-burn cards in your SB.
Flashfreeze would be cute, but unfortunately I do have some Tron in my meta. Burn is not the hugest problem, its not that much present. I guess TS works differently in Grixis than it does in Jund. But kinda makes sense, since you have a much bigger clock that you need to protect. In GBx though, TS is horrendus vs. Burn. Just for explanation, this is from my primer (This is not to convince anybody here, its just to show how I think about this when playing Jund.):
I often hear people arguing that TS is not as bad against Burn, because you can potentially snatch a Boros Charm or Atarkas Command, effectively gaining 2 life, right? Well, its not that simple.
I look at Burn as being a combo deck, which just has to resolve 6-7 spells in order to win the game. Generally, each spell will do 3 or sometimes 4 dmg to the opponent, so for 20 life --> 7 spells with 3 dmg per spell or 6 spells with two spells dealing 4 dmg are needed. Burn is a very consistant deck. It will more often than not draw the needed spells and just win. Now, when you are playing TS and taking Boros Charm out of the opponent’s hand, you annul the effect of Boros Charm which would have otherwise dealt 4 dmg to your face. But what you also did through this, is effective casting a free Shock on yourself. Combines this with a simple fetch you potentially did prior to this (even if you only fetched for 1) you effectively cast a free Lightning Bolt on yourself. So what did TS actually do for you? Nothing. You took Boros Charm, but bolted you alongside. You gave the opponent 1 of the 7 spells needed to kill you. (And to note, even if you don’t fetch for 1, you effectively cast a combo spell piece on yourself by casting TS, going down to 18 life and the burn player now just needs 6 instead of 7 3-dmg spells) So to conclude, if you TS the Burn player, you take away one spell they have but they simply have to draw one less spell alongside, which is just doing nothing.
What cards are you cutting in Control matchups like UW or Jeskai Control?
I think the biggest difference between Jund (normal Jund) and Grixis Shadow is that Jund typically has more things they can bring in vs. Burn. Thoughtseize is a little better for Shadow than for Jund, but it's still not good.
Vs. Control I like to board out a few Street Wraiths, especially if they have access to Bolt. Games go long, life totals get low, and drawing one late can be a liability. Especially when they can just bolt you out. Vs. UW control specifically I'm less sure about that, because you can keep your life total lower for longer without risk of dying, and a quick large Shadow backed up by discard is a common path to victory. It might be correct to side out all of the Stubs for the same reason you side them out vs. mirrors and midrange. But given your 75, I might just go -2 Wraith, + 2 YP. Nothing else in your SB looks that great against them. You could bring in a LtlH just to threaten ultimate and if they don't hit you with RiP, it's plenty of card advantage. If they're running Logic Knot, Spellbomb isn't the worst in order to constrain that card some as well as Snapcaster. But again, less good if they're going to RiP you anyway.
I haven't been very enthused with Liliana in the main. I do like the build I've been working on with 3 Stubborn in the main. It helps us protect our threats a lot.
I've also been playing the ari lax 4x sleight version for awhile now , I think it's just the better deck when compared to the stock 18-19 land versions.
The big downsides for Ari Lax's 4 Sleight / 16 cantrip / 17 land version were always 1) Chalice, and 2) mana denial strategies. You end up much more susceptible to both. In an open metagame, I like it better than the stock 19 land version. But IMO in the MTGO/SCG open/GP metagames there's too much Spreading Seas, Blood Moon, Smallpox, Stone Rain, Ghost Quarter, etc., running around.
Edit: to be clear, I thought Lax's list was great until the format adjusted to the presence of Death's Shadow. If your local metagame has not, it might be your best bet.
But as far as a 16 cantrip build with Opt replacing Street Wraith, you still have both problems. In fact, you're even worse vs. Chalice now. But the biggest problem is that your Death's Shadows will be far less explosive. This will hurt a lot in matchups like Storm and Valakut. So will having to spend mana to cantrip a higher percentage of the time - e.g. when you're digging for lands, but you also need to cast Thoughtseize or a threat. Then adding Young Pyromancer on top of it is sketchy. YP is essentially a 3 mana card. You can play him on 2, but you really want to play him then get immediate value. But cutting lands and adding cantrips makes it harder to hit 3 mana on turn 3 consistently without spend all/most of your mana on your early turns cantriping. Part of the beauty of Grixis Shadow is that it gets to interact on turns 1, 2, and sometimes 3, then cast a threat for 1 mana with more interaction held back.
Your 14 land, 20 cantrip version is insane to me. You have about a 13.9% to have an opening hand with 0 lands. If only 13 of your lands are blue sources (say you play a blood crypt), you have about a 16.3% chance to have an opening hand with 0 blue sources, which is almost certainly a mulligan. At 12 blue sources, it's 19.1%. That's a whole lot of mulligans due to not having enough land in the deck. Plus, so many of your games you have to spend all of your mana in the first 1-3 turns looking for another land. Modern punishes people who don't interact with their opponent in the first couple turns.
I agree. So, I feel like we should still be playing wraith; a lot of builds have been playing 1-2 Sleight of Hand, and I feel like those copies should be replaced by Opt.that puts our cantrip suite at:
4 Wraith
4 Serum
4 Scour
2 Opt
In my testing this has felt amazing, and also lets us keep hands more often. Opt has also felt superb in the mid game because it allows us to choose card quality at instant speed.
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
I haven't tested the 2 Sleight builds or Opt yet, but this seems reasonable to me. I could see shaving 1 Street Wraith even. I kind of want to get YP into the MD just to have another threat, especially one that is not susceptible to GY hate. (I like P&K much better than YP in the SB though) And shaving a Wraith for an Opt or some such makes that a little better.
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
In any case the differences are small. Pick a stock looking list and start playing games. If you end up needing opts later or deciding you didn't need them after all, you can always make that change.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
Creature [15]
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Serum Visions
2 Opt
4 Thought Scour
4 Fatal Push
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Terminate
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Collective Brutality
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Young Pyromancer
Thoughts: Maybe replace one Push with a third Stubborn denial main, which would change one Stubborn from the SB into a second Rejection. Am not sure about the YPs yet.
What are your thoughts about this list, my meta consists mainly of: Control, Affinity, CoCO decks, Scapeshift, some ELves, burn and a little bit GBx.
Also, is my SB plan for these matchups correct?
Burn: Cut 4 Street Wraith and 2 TS for 2 CB, 2 Kozilek's and 2 Stubborn?
Control: Cut 2 Push 2 Stubborn and 1 Terminate, 1 Gurmag Angler, Bring in 2 YP, 2 Stroke, 2 CB?
Affinity: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 Gurmag, 2 Stubborn, Bring in 2 Kozilek, 2 LtLH, 1 Rejection?
CoCo decks: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 KCommand, 2 Stubborn, bring in 2 KOzilek, 2 CB, 1 LtLH
Scapeshift: Cut 4 Pushes, 2 KCommand, Bring in 2 Stokes, 2 CB, 2 Stubborn
Elves: Cut 1 LoTV, 2 Street Wraith, 2 Stubborn, 1 KCommand, bring in 2 Kozilek, 2 CB, 2 LtLH
GBx: Cut 2 IOK, 2 TS, bring in 2 LtLH, 2 YP.
Thanks for any feedback on this.
EDIT: Oh and Verdant Catacombs are replacements for Scalding Tarns, since I don't have them.
Liliana of the Veil is not particularly good in that meta. It really shines vs. other midrange decks, but it's pretty bad vs Coco, Affinity, and Elves. It's decent against control and better than nothing against Scapeshift though. Consider Liliana, the Last Hope in that slot instead, or perhaps something completely different. Adding 1-2 MD Mana Leak would help your Scapeshift matchup, for example, and they have a low floor in most other matchups.
I have a lot of comments about the SB plans, but notably I'm not entirely sure what to do with Young Pyromancer. I usually have Pia and Kiran Nalaar in that spot instead. I think I prefer YP as a MD card if it's in the 75 at all, but I haven't testing it enough to be sure.
I'd leave at least one K Command in vs Scapeshift (assuming it's GR Scapeshift) - they tend to have Chalice of the Void in their SB, and at worst it can help attrition them out. I'd probably cut the LotV instead. There's also an argument for -2 Snap, +2 YP just because you need to clock them. Or squeezing in the YPs some other way.
I'm not sure about bringing in Kozilek's Return vs Burn. I think I'd rather have the Thoughtseizes. Young Pyromancer, again, could be brought in as a clock / speed bump. Probably in place of some Thoughtseizes.
I wouldn't cut any threats vs. Control. Cutting Stubborn Denials also seems bad, though I wouldn't max out on them either. Stroke doesn't even hit stuff like Supreme Verdict or 3 mana Gideon (though you didn't mention which control deck).
I wouldn't cut Gurmags vs. Affinity - you need the threats. Or the 2 Stubborns. They counter Plating, can slow down some T1 nut draws, and counter Galvanic Blast which often kills you. Cut the Street Wraiths, and you can additionally shave Thoughtseizes for more room. LtlH is only OK here, so bringing both in may not be the best (most of their X/1s are manlands).
Bring in both LtlH vs. CoCo decks. It's your best card. Leave a couple Stubborn Denials in too - they have CoCo, possibly Chord/Eldritch Evolution, and they'll have paths postboard. You can cut some Street Wraiths here because they game will typically go long and your have to be careful with your life total. The matchup tends to be grindy, so I like leaving K Commands in too. Maybe at least one. Young Pyromancer also seems decent here. If you go -4 Wraith, -1 LotV, -1 K Command, then +2 LtlH, +2 K Return, +2 Collective Brutality, I think you're in a decent spot. Not sure how to work YP in there though.
Vs. Elves, you can cut more street Wraiths for the Young Pyromancers. This is the perfect matchup for Peezy, and you can't really afford the life loss of Wraith.
Vs. GBx, the games will go long so shaving 2 street wraith is prudent. Also, they have a ton of removal along with Decays, so cutting Denials is is good idea. I'd leave in all of the discard spells. (I know this is counterintuitive for midrange mirrors in general, but Shadow plays out just a little bit differently since you can kill them so quickly. And discard is your best answer to things like Decay and LotV.)
Thanks for the extensive response. Yeah about YP, I would really like to run him to have an option to go wide, but not sure since mostly it doesn't quite fit in concerning SB in various matchups. But I have seen him in SBs already, so thats why I thought about him.
On TS vs. Burn, the thing is that I am in strong believe that TS is more or less a card that reads: Pay 1 mana, your opponent needs one less card to kill you, and you discard a card from the opponent, which mostly equals to: Pay 1 Mana, do nothing. I think its a big misconception that taking a Boros Charm with TS "heals" yourself for 2 life. So I would basically like to cut all of them vs. Burn. I played sweepers in Jund vs. Burn in the past, its decent, but not sure it workes out the same way in Grixis DS.
The SB plan vs. Control is the one I am most uncertain of. Not sure if I want Stubborns or Strokes, for the reasons you mentioned. I thought about cutting one Angler to leverage possible GY hate. It should be geared vs. UW Control and Jeskai Control.
I chose to cut Gurmags vs. Affinity mostly due to Paulor Vitor Damo Da Rosa's Article on Channel Fireball, and I think it makes kinda sense, but not sure. Here is the link: Click.
I often saw Grixis DS players leave in Denials against GBx to have an answer to LoTV. I always thought personally that this is a mistake, but thats what basically every Grixis DS player did who I met.
Thanks for your tips on sideboarding, I will have a look at them again and rework my plan!
No problem!
Thoughtseize is better than that vs. burn. Postboard they'll have Path and Deflecting Palm, and killing them with a Shadow is priority 1 in the matchup. Taking an Eidolon is also very good. And, yes, taking a Boros Charm does essentially gain you 2 life if they would have been able to resolve it otherwise - that's just the math. Not that Thoughtseize is good in the matchup, but it has its uses - and it's also the most skill testing card in your deck. Knowing when to cast it is very difficult. If we had more real cards to bring in vs them, it would definitely be the next cut after the Street Wraiths. But Kozilek's Return is not a real card in the matchup. We already have a pile of removal and not a ton of targets, and Return costs a whopping 3 mana in a matchup that can end before you can cast it. And most burn decks are lighter on creatures these days (not that K Return kills Nacatl, but the kitty does stretch your spot removal more). K Return often can't even kill Swiftspear.
I didn't understand PV's SB plan vs affinity when he published that article, and I don't understand it now. Cutting Stubs seems like it could be defensible, but I die to Galvanic Blast a lot vs them. Cutting a clock just doesn't make sense to me though. I get Blood Mooned far more often than I get Rest in Peaced out of affinity.
Edit: as a side note, if there's no Tron in your meta, you can switch the Strokes to Flashfreezes and have essentially the same spell vs Valakut, but more anti-burn cards in your SB.
Flashfreeze would be cute, but unfortunately I do have some Tron in my meta. Burn is not the hugest problem, its not that much present. I guess TS works differently in Grixis than it does in Jund. But kinda makes sense, since you have a much bigger clock that you need to protect. In GBx though, TS is horrendus vs. Burn. Just for explanation, this is from my primer (This is not to convince anybody here, its just to show how I think about this when playing Jund.):
I look at Burn as being a combo deck, which just has to resolve 6-7 spells in order to win the game. Generally, each spell will do 3 or sometimes 4 dmg to the opponent, so for 20 life --> 7 spells with 3 dmg per spell or 6 spells with two spells dealing 4 dmg are needed. Burn is a very consistant deck. It will more often than not draw the needed spells and just win. Now, when you are playing TS and taking Boros Charm out of the opponent’s hand, you annul the effect of Boros Charm which would have otherwise dealt 4 dmg to your face. But what you also did through this, is effective casting a free Shock on yourself. Combines this with a simple fetch you potentially did prior to this (even if you only fetched for 1) you effectively cast a free Lightning Bolt on yourself. So what did TS actually do for you? Nothing. You took Boros Charm, but bolted you alongside. You gave the opponent 1 of the 7 spells needed to kill you. (And to note, even if you don’t fetch for 1, you effectively cast a combo spell piece on yourself by casting TS, going down to 18 life and the burn player now just needs 6 instead of 7 3-dmg spells) So to conclude, if you TS the Burn player, you take away one spell they have but they simply have to draw one less spell alongside, which is just doing nothing.
What cards are you cutting in Control matchups like UW or Jeskai Control?
Vs. Control I like to board out a few Street Wraiths, especially if they have access to Bolt. Games go long, life totals get low, and drawing one late can be a liability. Especially when they can just bolt you out. Vs. UW control specifically I'm less sure about that, because you can keep your life total lower for longer without risk of dying, and a quick large Shadow backed up by discard is a common path to victory. It might be correct to side out all of the Stubs for the same reason you side them out vs. mirrors and midrange. But given your 75, I might just go -2 Wraith, + 2 YP. Nothing else in your SB looks that great against them. You could bring in a LtlH just to threaten ultimate and if they don't hit you with RiP, it's plenty of card advantage. If they're running Logic Knot, Spellbomb isn't the worst in order to constrain that card some as well as Snapcaster. But again, less good if they're going to RiP you anyway.