Why doesn't opt work with MD LotV? I don't see much of a difference between Opt and Serum Visions here.
Part of the strength of opt is playing at instant speed on your opponents turn whereas with lili you and your opponent are both going to be hellbent most of the time. You'll be forced to cast it mainphase before upticking her which basically makes it a sorcery anyway.
As others have said I think I'm definitely going to be playing this but replacing sleight instead. Most likely 4/2 split favouring visions at first and then play with the numbers depending on which is more consistent.
Why doesn't opt work with MD LotV? I don't see much of a difference between Opt and Serum Visions here.
Part of the strength of opt is playing at instant speed on your opponents turn whereas with lili you and your opponent are both going to be hellbent most of the time. You'll be forced to cast it mainphase before upticking her which basically makes it a sorcery anyway.
As others have said I think I'm definitely going to be playing this but replacing sleight instead. Most likely 4/2 split favouring visions at first and then play with the numbers depending on which is more consistent.
Yeah, this is definitely not a big enough reason to not play LotV.
Opt probably replaces some number of cards in the cantrip suite. Which ones depends on your build. It probably straight up replaces any copies of Sleight of Hand in your deck if you’re running the high cantrip version.
Serum Visions is a contender for the swap… right now I’m inclined to believe that Serum Visions is better, but I will probably try a 1 for 1 switch with Opt to see how they fair.
I could see trimming a single Thought Scour to fit one Opt in as being a potential option, but running any less than 3 Thought Scours is definitely a mistake.
Opt probably replaces some number of cards in the cantrip suite. Which ones depends on your build. It probably straight up replaces any copies of Sleight of Hand in your deck if you’re running the high cantrip version.
Serum Visions is a contender for the swap… right now I’m inclined to believe that Serum Visions is better, but I will probably try a 1 for 1 switch with Opt to see how they fair.
I could see trimming a single Thought Scour to fit one Opt in as being a potential option, but running any less than 3 Thought Scours is definitely a mistake.
I definitely wouldn't cut Thought Scour. We simply need the delve fuel too much. I do agree that it should replace Sleight if you're running it, and that experimenting with Opt over Serum Visions is warranted if you aren't.
Why doesn't opt work with MD LotV? I don't see much of a difference between Opt and Serum Visions here.
Part of it is losing the instant speed like Goffman10 said, but also that Serum Visions lets you set up the following draw step/steps. Opt gives you a card, but then has no more effect on the game apart from being in the graveyard. A Serum Visions into a Lily plus while both players are hellbent usually gives you an edge, the scry means your next draw is likely to be better than the opponents. Opt in this situation is pretty useless.
However, the upside I think is worth it. The tension with LotV is less of an issue in matchups where she is strong, so I'd rather board her in for those instead of running her main. I'd rather run a faster mainboard with Temur Battle Rage, and board into a slower version than the other way round.
Yeah i was pretty hyped about Opt but in GDS it's just better to stay with SV and Scour and if you go for the Sleight route, then you MIGHT want to cut those for Opt but it's not very clear really.
The only good thing about Opt is that it's and instant, apart from that it digs less than every other used cantrip in Modern. Maybe control, like Think Twice decks could want it. I think Serum Visions is plain better since it fixes our draws and dig deeper for what could be missing from our hand, being Lands,Threats or interaction. I lose plenty of games as Grixis Shadow because of not finding a threat or a second land in time. Cantrips are there to mitigate that and i'm afraid Opt is not better at that job than our previous options.
SV is kinda nonbo with fetchlands anyway. there are times where you scry and want both cards but need to fetch. cutting 1 or 2 visions for opt seems good. though we probably need to get significant amount of testing before a conclusion can be made.
then again, i've been playing the 2 sleight version so thats what my opts will be replacing first.
Testing is incredibly important at this stage. I've only done a handful of games and feel it is preferable to Serum Visions, but variance is a real thing, so I wouldn't jump to any conclusions yet.
The thing I feel really makes Opt shine in our deck is how often we cap out at three lands in the midgame, where a Snap+SV feels really awkward but holding up mana and going Snap+Opt EOT just works so much better. That said, even if Opt is every bit as good as it has been feeling to me - and even if variance isn't a factor here - I'd still expect a split to be correct. I don't see us cutting SV completely.
Serum Visions allows us to keep hands with just one land. It becomes more important with each mulligan, which means that it is most useful when we are in a rough spot in the early game. Serum Visions is perhaps the biggest enabler for the deck's low land count. If there is a land in the top 4 cards of our library, Serum Visions will ensure that we have hit it by the next turn.
Opt, on the other hand, shines in the mid to late game when we have mana to spare for a rather minor effect. At this point in the game, the one mana casting cost is not that relevant, except maybe in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage, as some here have pointed out. But even then, I can see myself looking for a more interesting target most of the time.
In the end, Opt is a bad Anticipate for one mana less or a bad Sleight of Hand at instant speed. I'm not overly excited.
I'm thinking 4x Opt, 4x scour, 4x Wraith and 2x visions with 18 lands. (11 fetches, 4 shocks and 3 basics - I feel it's important to have two basic islands in the deck so we aren't so vulnerable to moon)
Opt probably replaces some number of cards in the cantrip suite. Which ones depends on your build. It probably straight up replaces any copies of Sleight of Hand in your deck if you’re running the high cantrip version.
Serum Visions is a contender for the swap… right now I’m inclined to believe that Serum Visions is better, but I will probably try a 1 for 1 switch with Opt to see how they fair.
I could see trimming a single Thought Scour to fit one Opt in as being a potential option, but running any less than 3 Thought Scours is definitely a mistake.
I definitely wouldn't cut Thought Scour. We simply need the delve fuel too much. I do agree that it should replace Sleight if you're running it, and that experimenting with Opt over Serum Visions is warranted if you aren't.
Thought Scour is definitely necessary but I'm not sure the full 4 is necessary. The main reason scour is needed in the deck is to facilitate an early Tasigur or Angler in matchups where it's imperative to get an immediate clock out.
However, with our extremely high density of fetches, Street Wraith and our high level of interaction, we fill the grave quite quickly naturally. I rarely ever want to draw more than 1 a game. Which is why I think dropping to 3 MIGHT be okay to slip in an Opt.
I've actually tested 3 scour main previously and it's actually still pretty smooth and I rarely had any problems having enough fuel for delve.
That being said I've still been running 4 as of late, but merely as insurance for hands where Gurmag is the only threat in my opener.
Why doesn't opt work with MD LotV? I don't see much of a difference between Opt and Serum Visions here.
Part of it is losing the instant speed like Goffman10 said, but also that Serum Visions lets you set up the following draw step/steps. Opt gives you a card, but then has no more effect on the game apart from being in the graveyard. A Serum Visions into a Lily plus while both players are hellbent usually gives you an edge, the scry means your next draw is likely to be better than the opponents. Opt in this situation is pretty useless.
However, the upside I think is worth it. The tension with LotV is less of an issue in matchups where she is strong, so I'd rather board her in for those instead of running her main. I'd rather run a faster mainboard with Temur Battle Rage, and board into a slower version than the other way round.
The tension between Opt and LotV (compared to Serum instead of Opt) is just such a minor factor that it should have no bearing on whether or not you MD LotV. If LotV is good in the metagame, you MD it no matter what your cantrip suite is.
I also disagree that Opt is useless in that spot too. It's more likely to FIND YOU the LotV that turn, where Serum is more likely to find something worthless and set up LotV for next turn. But really, these are such marginal differences relative to the power level of LotV that I don't think they matter.
Opt probably replaces some number of cards in the cantrip suite. Which ones depends on your build. It probably straight up replaces any copies of Sleight of Hand in your deck if you’re running the high cantrip version.
Serum Visions is a contender for the swap… right now I’m inclined to believe that Serum Visions is better, but I will probably try a 1 for 1 switch with Opt to see how they fair.
I could see trimming a single Thought Scour to fit one Opt in as being a potential option, but running any less than 3 Thought Scours is definitely a mistake.
I definitely wouldn't cut Thought Scour. We simply need the delve fuel too much. I do agree that it should replace Sleight if you're running it, and that experimenting with Opt over Serum Visions is warranted if you aren't.
Thought Scour is definitely necessary but I'm not sure the full 4 is necessary. The main reason scour is needed in the deck is to facilitate an early Tasigur or Angler in matchups where it's imperative to get an immediate clock out.
However, with our extremely high density of fetches, Street Wraith and our high level of interaction, we fill the grave quite quickly naturally. I rarely ever want to draw more than 1 a game. Which is why I think dropping to 3 MIGHT be okay to slip in an Opt.
I've actually tested 3 scour main previously and it's actually still pretty smooth and I rarely had any problems having enough fuel for delve.
That being said I've still been running 4 as of late, but merely as insurance for hands where Gurmag is the only threat in my opener.
Running less than 4 Thought Scour is absolutely wrong. You can't always count on your interaction to fill the gy quickly because e.g. they may not play a creature for you to target, or a spell for you to Stub. And Scour is is the main way we play T2 delve creatures, which is super important in a lot of matchups (Tron variants, Valakut, Storm, Ad Naus, etc.). On top of the delve creatures, we're playing 4 Snapcasters and need them to be online while we're delving our GY away for early fatties. Even with 4, you can get delve creature flooded fairly easily. I'd probably play 5 if I could.
Yeah, I agree that Thought Scour is crucial to the deck, particularly because there are plenty of matches where you need turn 2 Tasigur/Angler. That’s THE reason to run it. The fact that it nicely synergizes with Snapcaster and K-Command just makes it a little less useless outside that small window. No one would run it without the delve threats to just fuel Snaps and K-Command.
I disagree with your assessment that the grave won’t be filled by natural interaction.
The core list runs these cards:
[card]4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
4 Street Wraith
12 Fetches
4 Thought Scour
[/card]
That’s 30 cards, or half of the deck, that require no actions from your opponent to get cards in the bin. Having 3 Thought Scours instead of 4 still gives you 29 cards that will end up in the bin, so it’s far more likely that you will have SOMETHING to do in your hand, than nothing but sit around and look at a Fatal Push or a Stubborn Denial that you can’t cast because your opponent did nothing that turn. I probably wouldn't keep a hand in the dark that relies completely on casting Fatal Pushes and Stubborn Denial to progress the turns.
Again, after having said all this, I have since went back to 4 after testing 3, because it smooths out the Gurmag Angler openers. I just disagree with your assertion about how good Thought Scour is. 4 is probably the right amount, but I could see 3 being alright in conjunction with some number of Opts since Opt gives you card selection at the cost of a very slightly increased chance of needing to take a mulligan because you have a Delve threat in hand with no means to quickly rush him out. If Mental Note was legal in modern, I doubt it would be correct to play any copies of it though.
@Spooly
I disagree with your assessment that the grave won’t be filled by natural interaction.
I didn't say it won't be filled by natural interaction. I said sometimes it won't and gave an example of a specific situation where it wouldn't. Like when you have a hand full of removal against Ad Naus, or Valakut. Or if you draw a bunch of Snapcasters. If this never happens to you, you're luckier than I am. The extra Thought Scour makes early delve threats a little more consistent in those spots.
Again, after having said all this, I have since went back to 4 after testing 3, because it smooths out the Gurmag Angler openers. I just disagree with your assertion about how good Thought Scour is. 4 is probably the right amount, but I could see 3 being alright in conjunction with some number of Opts since Opt gives you card selection at the cost of a very slightly increased chance of needing to take a mulligan because you have a Delve threat in hand with no means to quickly rush him out. If Mental Note was legal in modern, I doubt it would be correct to play any copies of it though.
I think I fundamentally value getting to the board and being aggressive more than you. Modern is a format of degeneracy. The most important thing your deck should do (any deck) is kill the opponent (or lock them out) quickly.
Just to clarify on the lotv discussion; I was just explaining why it wouldn't synergise as well but by no means should you not run either card for that reason. If lili is good in your meta absolutely run her, even if it gets uncomfortable sometimes with instant speed interaction or counters she can win games on her own so it can be worth it. I personally don't like her in the main but with the matchups I regularly face she just doesn't do much for me.
Also I disagree with cutting any number of thought scours personally. The only time they're bad is when you already have an active tasigur out since it makes his activations weaker (either they give you the scour back or you use it and put something worse in the yard anyway). Yes our graveyard gets filled naturally but the difference between a turn 2 delve threat and turn 3, 4 or later is significant especially when we need to be very aggressive. I'm not saying it's 100% incorrect to run less than the full playset but I think even 3 just reduces the consistency of those threats too much for my liking. Could very well be wrong though, maybe having a different cantrip is going to be good enough but I won't be testing it myself so let us know how it goes.
As for my deck I've decided I'm actually going to try a 4/2 split favouring opt instead of visions. I like that visions digs one card deeper but sometimes the scry can be awkward with fetches and opt seems better when keeping one land openers which is actually fairly often for me. The instant speed is just the icing on the cake. I don't know what exact numbers are correct there maybe even a 3/3 split would be best. I don't think I'd go with the ari lax build that I've seen people mention recently with 17 lands and the full playset of all 3 cantrips just because I feel that leaves us way too vulnerable to the slightest bit of land destruction. Even a single ghost quarter or spreading seas means you're almost entirely off of red. Maybe I'm being too cautious but I really don't think we should be cutting our actual lands over fetches.
Do u guys side in Disdainful Stroke, last Hope against Bant Eldrazi? Is Anger of the Gods any good?
Gonna be honest I don't remember the last time I've even played against that deck, seems to have been entirely replaced by e tron at least where I am. That said stroke might be good but if I remember correctly that deck runs more cavern of souls so you risk it becoming a dead card pretty quick as the only targets they have are creatures.
I really like anger and sweepers in general in that matchup but I think lili might be too low impact, depends how many cards you're cutting. The key is to do your best to keep the board clear since they have a very real tendency to flood out and have horrible top decks that don't do much on their own unlike e tron. I think I'd be more comfortable going into the late game against that deck for that reason, our creatures are almost always bigger and there's no troublesome planeswalkers or sweepers to worry about.
Do u guys side in Disdainful Stroke, last Hope against Bant Eldrazi? Is Anger of the Gods any good?
Gonna be honest I don't remember the last time I've even played against that deck, seems to have been entirely replaced by e tron at least where I am. That said stroke might be good but if I remember correctly that deck runs more cavern of souls so you risk it becoming a dead card pretty quick as the only targets they have are creatures.
I really like anger and sweepers in general in that matchup but I think lili might be too low impact, depends how many cards you're cutting. The key is to do your best to keep the board clear since they have a very real tendency to flood out and have horrible top decks that don't do much on their own unlike e tron. I think I'd be more comfortable going into the late game against that deck for that reason, our creatures are almost always bigger and there's no troublesome planeswalkers or sweepers to worry about.
It is, but I would still side Stroke and Rejection in. It's a bad matchup, and the countmagic at least allows you to beat their non-cavern draws. Stroke also counters Worship, which is usually impossible to beat.
Congrats on the 4-0. I have also been considering including a couple of 2 mana counter in main. I was thinking of mana leak instead if deprive because UU and bouncing a land can pretty rough at times.
My question is, would mana leak have achieved the same results as deprive everytime you casted it in the tournament? Around what percentage of times would deprive counter something that mana leak couldn't in your experience?
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Part of the strength of opt is playing at instant speed on your opponents turn whereas with lili you and your opponent are both going to be hellbent most of the time. You'll be forced to cast it mainphase before upticking her which basically makes it a sorcery anyway.
As others have said I think I'm definitely going to be playing this but replacing sleight instead. Most likely 4/2 split favouring visions at first and then play with the numbers depending on which is more consistent.
Yeah, this is definitely not a big enough reason to not play LotV.
Opt probably replaces some number of cards in the cantrip suite. Which ones depends on your build. It probably straight up replaces any copies of Sleight of Hand in your deck if you’re running the high cantrip version.
Serum Visions is a contender for the swap… right now I’m inclined to believe that Serum Visions is better, but I will probably try a 1 for 1 switch with Opt to see how they fair.
I could see trimming a single Thought Scour to fit one Opt in as being a potential option, but running any less than 3 Thought Scours is definitely a mistake.
I definitely wouldn't cut Thought Scour. We simply need the delve fuel too much. I do agree that it should replace Sleight if you're running it, and that experimenting with Opt over Serum Visions is warranted if you aren't.
Part of it is losing the instant speed like Goffman10 said, but also that Serum Visions lets you set up the following draw step/steps. Opt gives you a card, but then has no more effect on the game apart from being in the graveyard. A Serum Visions into a Lily plus while both players are hellbent usually gives you an edge, the scry means your next draw is likely to be better than the opponents. Opt in this situation is pretty useless.
However, the upside I think is worth it. The tension with LotV is less of an issue in matchups where she is strong, so I'd rather board her in for those instead of running her main. I'd rather run a faster mainboard with Temur Battle Rage, and board into a slower version than the other way round.
The only good thing about Opt is that it's and instant, apart from that it digs less than every other used cantrip in Modern. Maybe control, like Think Twice decks could want it. I think Serum Visions is plain better since it fixes our draws and dig deeper for what could be missing from our hand, being Lands,Threats or interaction. I lose plenty of games as Grixis Shadow because of not finding a threat or a second land in time. Cantrips are there to mitigate that and i'm afraid Opt is not better at that job than our previous options.
then again, i've been playing the 2 sleight version so thats what my opts will be replacing first.
The thing I feel really makes Opt shine in our deck is how often we cap out at three lands in the midgame, where a Snap+SV feels really awkward but holding up mana and going Snap+Opt EOT just works so much better. That said, even if Opt is every bit as good as it has been feeling to me - and even if variance isn't a factor here - I'd still expect a split to be correct. I don't see us cutting SV completely.
Opt, on the other hand, shines in the mid to late game when we have mana to spare for a rather minor effect. At this point in the game, the one mana casting cost is not that relevant, except maybe in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage, as some here have pointed out. But even then, I can see myself looking for a more interesting target most of the time.
In the end, Opt is a bad Anticipate for one mana less or a bad Sleight of Hand at instant speed. I'm not overly excited.
Thought Scour is definitely necessary but I'm not sure the full 4 is necessary. The main reason scour is needed in the deck is to facilitate an early Tasigur or Angler in matchups where it's imperative to get an immediate clock out.
However, with our extremely high density of fetches, Street Wraith and our high level of interaction, we fill the grave quite quickly naturally. I rarely ever want to draw more than 1 a game. Which is why I think dropping to 3 MIGHT be okay to slip in an Opt.
I've actually tested 3 scour main previously and it's actually still pretty smooth and I rarely had any problems having enough fuel for delve.
That being said I've still been running 4 as of late, but merely as insurance for hands where Gurmag is the only threat in my opener.
The tension between Opt and LotV (compared to Serum instead of Opt) is just such a minor factor that it should have no bearing on whether or not you MD LotV. If LotV is good in the metagame, you MD it no matter what your cantrip suite is.
I also disagree that Opt is useless in that spot too. It's more likely to FIND YOU the LotV that turn, where Serum is more likely to find something worthless and set up LotV for next turn. But really, these are such marginal differences relative to the power level of LotV that I don't think they matter.
Running less than 4 Thought Scour is absolutely wrong. You can't always count on your interaction to fill the gy quickly because e.g. they may not play a creature for you to target, or a spell for you to Stub. And Scour is is the main way we play T2 delve creatures, which is super important in a lot of matchups (Tron variants, Valakut, Storm, Ad Naus, etc.). On top of the delve creatures, we're playing 4 Snapcasters and need them to be online while we're delving our GY away for early fatties. Even with 4, you can get delve creature flooded fairly easily. I'd probably play 5 if I could.
Yeah, I agree that Thought Scour is crucial to the deck, particularly because there are plenty of matches where you need turn 2 Tasigur/Angler. That’s THE reason to run it. The fact that it nicely synergizes with Snapcaster and K-Command just makes it a little less useless outside that small window. No one would run it without the delve threats to just fuel Snaps and K-Command.
I disagree with your assessment that the grave won’t be filled by natural interaction.
The core list runs these cards:
[card]4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Serum Visions
4 Street Wraith
12 Fetches
4 Thought Scour
[/card]
That’s 30 cards, or half of the deck, that require no actions from your opponent to get cards in the bin. Having 3 Thought Scours instead of 4 still gives you 29 cards that will end up in the bin, so it’s far more likely that you will have SOMETHING to do in your hand, than nothing but sit around and look at a Fatal Push or a Stubborn Denial that you can’t cast because your opponent did nothing that turn. I probably wouldn't keep a hand in the dark that relies completely on casting Fatal Pushes and Stubborn Denial to progress the turns.
Again, after having said all this, I have since went back to 4 after testing 3, because it smooths out the Gurmag Angler openers. I just disagree with your assertion about how good Thought Scour is. 4 is probably the right amount, but I could see 3 being alright in conjunction with some number of Opts since Opt gives you card selection at the cost of a very slightly increased chance of needing to take a mulligan because you have a Delve threat in hand with no means to quickly rush him out. If Mental Note was legal in modern, I doubt it would be correct to play any copies of it though.
I didn't say it won't be filled by natural interaction. I said sometimes it won't and gave an example of a specific situation where it wouldn't. Like when you have a hand full of removal against Ad Naus, or Valakut. Or if you draw a bunch of Snapcasters. If this never happens to you, you're luckier than I am. The extra Thought Scour makes early delve threats a little more consistent in those spots.
I think I fundamentally value getting to the board and being aggressive more than you. Modern is a format of degeneracy. The most important thing your deck should do (any deck) is kill the opponent (or lock them out) quickly.
Also I disagree with cutting any number of thought scours personally. The only time they're bad is when you already have an active tasigur out since it makes his activations weaker (either they give you the scour back or you use it and put something worse in the yard anyway). Yes our graveyard gets filled naturally but the difference between a turn 2 delve threat and turn 3, 4 or later is significant especially when we need to be very aggressive. I'm not saying it's 100% incorrect to run less than the full playset but I think even 3 just reduces the consistency of those threats too much for my liking. Could very well be wrong though, maybe having a different cantrip is going to be good enough but I won't be testing it myself so let us know how it goes.
As for my deck I've decided I'm actually going to try a 4/2 split favouring opt instead of visions. I like that visions digs one card deeper but sometimes the scry can be awkward with fetches and opt seems better when keeping one land openers which is actually fairly often for me. The instant speed is just the icing on the cake. I don't know what exact numbers are correct there maybe even a 3/3 split would be best. I don't think I'd go with the ari lax build that I've seen people mention recently with 17 lands and the full playset of all 3 cantrips just because I feel that leaves us way too vulnerable to the slightest bit of land destruction. Even a single ghost quarter or spreading seas means you're almost entirely off of red. Maybe I'm being too cautious but I really don't think we should be cutting our actual lands over fetches.
Gonna be honest I don't remember the last time I've even played against that deck, seems to have been entirely replaced by e tron at least where I am. That said stroke might be good but if I remember correctly that deck runs more cavern of souls so you risk it becoming a dead card pretty quick as the only targets they have are creatures.
I really like anger and sweepers in general in that matchup but I think lili might be too low impact, depends how many cards you're cutting. The key is to do your best to keep the board clear since they have a very real tendency to flood out and have horrible top decks that don't do much on their own unlike e tron. I think I'd be more comfortable going into the late game against that deck for that reason, our creatures are almost always bigger and there's no troublesome planeswalkers or sweepers to worry about.
It is, but I would still side Stroke and Rejection in. It's a bad matchup, and the countmagic at least allows you to beat their non-cavern draws. Stroke also counters Worship, which is usually impossible to beat.
My question is, would mana leak have achieved the same results as deprive everytime you casted it in the tournament? Around what percentage of times would deprive counter something that mana leak couldn't in your experience?