What do you guys think of the build that uses Kiln Fiends, Thing in the ice and claim to fame as a way to punish the hostile GDS meta? I've only tried it locally at FNM level and some local leagues and I'd like to know what more people think about these changes.
The main reason I decided to switch over was the prominence of titanshift decks in my local meta, together with quite a lot of CoCo variants(elves, humans, value town...). I assumed that taking an agressive approach to the meta while mantaining an edge against the rest of the field with my discard and conditional counters was where I wanted to be. I think cutting the snaps was a bad idea, but I'm not sure what to take out to make them fit.
Any cricism is appreciated!
First I would suggest reformatting your list. At the very least keep your lands clumped separate from your non-lands (and creatures clumped separate as well). My eyes are tired from working in the sun so I may be reading your list wrong, but it appears to really be a different deck. It is technically in Grixis colors and runs Death's Shadow, but other than that really isn't a Grixis Death's Shadow deck. Seems more like a version of UR Kiln Fiend. Your deck seems more of an all in aggro deck. GDS is really more of a midrange deck. Two decks share a lot of cards, but really play on different axes. Maybe trying asking your question here?
The article is great. Although there are some things about his choices that i don´t particularly agree with.
This is basically exactly how I felt.
Plenty of people jump in and suggest strange changes based on gut feelings, no testing, or nonsensical logic, but this is a well argued, well thought out article.
I really liked what he pegged as the 'untouchable' core of the deck. If there is anything I would argue with, it is the second Terminate, which could reasonably turn into a different removal spell. Having this slot be Terminate or something similar (Dreadbore, Dismember) is correct most of the time so I am okay with it. The core of the deck is the fact that it gets to play 20-some amazing 1 mana spells, and this captures that very well.
The 4th Snapcaster Mage being a flex slot feel blasphemous to long time blue players, but I see the logic. The deck is very low to the ground (our two drop slot consists of "play two one drops"), and there is only so much room for 3 mana spells. If he is looking to find room for LotV, then you have to be looking here and not at the cheap spells.
I have been playing one Liliana of the Veil in the main deck, and it has been excellent. For a deck that is, at its core, a midrange good stuff deck, slamming the most powerful 3 drop in the format into the deck isn't a hard sell. I think the biggest strike against Liliana has always been that it didn't play well with the spell slots, specifically Stubborn Denial and Kolaghan's Command. These promote holding spells in your hand, which Liliana does not. Plussing Liliana also often entails ditching extra lands, making it hard to full utilize Command and Snapcaster.
The third IoK also makes a lot of sense in this build. A big strength of 6 discard spells instead of 7 or 8 was that they didn't clog up your hand later in the game as much, but with more Lilianas to ditch them later on this is less of a problem. 6 is a good number, but not quite enough to ensure that you can always lead on one. I have always been a big fan of Stubborn Denial to back you up against top-decks and other non-sense, but I understand the argument in favor of shifting to more of a tap-out strategy.
Cutting Denial entirely is still a hard sell for me, but I do think that this approach or the current stock 2 makes more sense than some lists I have seen that bump it up to 3 in the Main. Denial is an absolute powerhouse against a lot of decks, so I do want access to them. That being said, plenty of decks have sideboarded Spell Piece, Negate, Countersquall, and Dispel since forever, so a streamlined, tap-out, discard-focused main deck with countermagic in the side isn't an overly ridiculous idea. This also depends a lot on what you expect to play against. If you play nothing but Burn, Gx Tron, and Valakut then you should definitely be maindecking 3 or 4, but Modern isn't that simple.
All in all, a lot of food for thought in this article. You have to careful not to just say 'well PV is better at Magic than me so he is obviously right', but on the other hand when one of the greatest players ever rights an in-depth article about the deck you are playing you would be a fool not to listen.
Yeah, i've been talking to some other GDS players in my community and they agree that cutting Stubborn Denial(even from the MB) is kind of crazy. This is obviosuly based on pure results. Denial has been a staple in every winning list and his Jundy list is more of a testing build(or at least he hasn't put any tangible result with it). Again, i like his premise but that doesn't make it right. I feel that Denial fills a role that might not be so crystal clear, but having the ability of playing protect the queen+defending against random nonsense is huge in this format. I always feels busted to me.
Ultimately, like most Modern decisions, it should be a pure metacall, i don't think cutting Denial entirely from the deck or even the MB is correct. If you expect a lot of Control, Mirrors and attrition based matchups then being more proactive could be better. Only testing can know.
Yeah I'm conflicted on the article as well. On the one hand he's an amazing player and I actually like quite a few of his suggestions. I'm going to test out trimming one snapcaster mage since it can sometimes be a bit awkward when you're snapcaster flooded with not enough good targets or you just delved a fatty. Amazing card don't get me wrong but maybe 3 is still sufficient we'll see.
On the other hand I completely disagree (as others have pointed out) with cutting denials. The card has been amazing for me and honestly without it and trying to go more "jundish" I would probably just run jund instead and have the increased amount of discard and threat density.
Also tested out lili in the main before. Not for a huge amount of games, granted, but as others pointed out she doesn't help with the matchups we struggle with at all. She's amazing in the mirror but that's more rare these days and most of the creatures you need to edict are sideboard cards from most decks anyway.
I'm gonna be testing out one battle rage in the main instead to see if it deserves a slot again. It gets through chump blockers and helps against decks where we need to be very aggressive such as valakut or to a lesser extent tron. Both those decks can have very annoying chump blockers too in the form of sakura tribe elder and matter reshaper so I think it's worth a shot. I'll post my results when I have enough games to be sure.
Esper is a pure trap since Red is actually the better SB color right now(at least for DS archetypes). You don't get RIP and a good sweeper plus Lingering Souls isn't really that good imo. It's an attrition mirror breaker but it's rather too slow in matchups DS struggles like Go wide aggro. I think the meta is being mean to you because Termiante and Kommand are very good cards in open metagames.
Eldrazi tron is a very hard matchup in my experience(which is a LOT of matches since my brother owns the deck and it's his only one). Chalice wrecks you hard. Matter Reshaper is annoying, their late game is better because of potential Ulamogs and Walking Ballistas, and MB Relics are a beating. Post board more Relics and Hangarback Walker make the matchup very skill intensive. I'm still looking for a good plan against them, TBR and shatter effects, Young Pyromancer, Rejection(this is a must anyways) and LOTV. I haven't found the best strategy this far, although a good plan for the matchup is playing aggro, drop Shadows fast after several Thoughtseizes and try to make them 6/6 ASAP. Post board the same apllies only that you have Ceremonious Rejection that if they don't have Cavern or Chalice out you will win backing it up with Snapcaster.
What's the best strategy for burn?
Try not to street wraith and let them get your life total down before going for the kill?
The ideal play is play a delve guy in turn 2 and go for the beat down, and turn on denial. Less reduce your life with street wraith.
However, ppl tend to bring down number of thoughtseize to 1 or 0 in Game 2, but always remember that Burns player's biggest threat still is an early Eidolon and only way to deal with it is rip their hand before they could play them.
Counterspell is all star, Inquisition and Collective Brutality is all star against them.
Game 2 cut 4 street wraith, 1-2 thoughtseize, bring in 2 collective brutality, 1-2 stubborn denial, 1-2 Temur battle rage if you have them
Yeah, i've been talking to some other GDS players in my community and they agree that cutting Stubborn Denial(even from the MB) is kind of crazy. This is obviosuly based on pure results. Denial has been a staple in every winning list and his Jundy list is more of a testing build(or at least he hasn't put any tangible result with it). Again, i like his premise but that doesn't make it right. I feel that Denial fills a role that might not be so crystal clear, but having the ability of playing protect the queen+defending against random nonsense is huge in this format. I always feels busted to me.
Ultimately, like most Modern decisions, it should be a pure metacall, i don't think cutting Denial entirely from the deck or even the MB is correct. If you expect a lot of Control, Mirrors and attrition based matchups then being more proactive could be better. Only testing can know.
Agreed with your fellow community, not sure about the MB's Liliana of the Veil, however I felt Denial still important to be play. Although there are some matchups they are held in hand for long time (for instance against aggro creature based), but not necessary die in hand as affinity has galvanic blast, merfolk has vapour snag, eldrazi has their path etc. Probably Game 2 would be siding those denial out anyway against those creature based deck.
I think you should check other pros and players SB plan against ETron. Sleight doesn't seem to accomplish much cutting them since they smooth your deck and you already should bring some hate against Chalice.
Mixing it up with gm_jack and the YP talk, i tested it a bunch of games and it wasn't impressive at all, just ok. Following the premise of YP inclusion in GDS, i just think particualrly against Eldrazi it's just better to fight their hate with shatter effects and whatnot. By Force, Explosives, Rejection, have carried me more often than not. YP might be another angle of attack against everyones hate but it's fragile. Eldrzi will just run over him with Smasher and Endbringer, Walking Ballista, or they will just demolish your board with All is Dust.
Like most other matchups, they best route is Big Shadow after several Thoughtseizes. Also, removal has to be used in a purely proactive way, don't save Termiantes for big dumb fatties, clear the way for your threats to punch and get them low so they are constrained. Their late game is better than ours because of Tron lands and huge Ballistas. Those are my 2cents in regard of the Etron matchup.
To round up the YP discussion, i don't love the card but i could see it working just fine as a hedge in heavy Death's Shadow/BGx metas against Lotv. He is somewhat soft to Lili Last Hope though. My gut feeling is that it's better to play around hate with strong hands and tight play rather than playing threats that dodge GY hate. I will testing him a little more surely and whatever i extract from the experience i will report back here.
Hi guys. How do you deal with Tezzeret/Sword combo decks? Bridge is a pain, academy ruins make kolaghans/counters near useless and grafdiggers cage neuters flashbacks. Any tips for that matchup/sideboard suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
Same as with any combo deck try to max out on all relevant disruption and do your best to get a quick clock going. The faster the game is the better your chances of winning. Grave hate here is very important as well, surgical is by far better than spellbomb for this matchup however. Also regular sweepers are not very good here but temur battle rage is amazing if you run it either in the main or the side, if you don't have battle rage and they've assembled the combo you honestly might as well scoop since they'll have infinite chump blockers.
So Opt is going to be Modern legal. Do we want it? It doesn't let us dig quite as deep, but gives us a pseudo Sleight of Hand at instant speed. Serum Visions might be better during the early turns, but Opt probably shines during the late game, when card selection is more important than setting up the next couple of turns. Snapcaster Mage + Opt at an opponent's end step seems pretty nice as well.
I plan on trying it out for sure, but I'm hesitant to believe it's a straight up upgrade, since I've had many games where I keep a 1 lander with Serum Visions to bottom 2 non-landers to hit my second land drop. Scry 2 vs Scry 1 is nothing to scoff at.
Opt is so much better with Snapcaster Mage that I think you'd go 4 Opt before any Serums.
It’s not quite as clear cut as that. Opt provides instant speed and an upgrade in immediate selection, which is important for games that go long. It also allows you to hold up Snapcaster Mage on turn 3+. Serum Visions is FAR superior on turn 1, it’s better at planning the next few turns and it plays very nice with Street Wraith, allowing you to sculpt your hand with some instant speed selection (via Wraith).
I’m still not sure which is superior, since both shine at slightly different things and during different stages of the game. GDS is a weird deck, since it plays at sorcery speed… sometimes and it plays at instant speed… sometimes.
After waffling back and forth on the idea, I’m starting to think Serum Visions may just be superior as the primary cantrip, while Opt acts as an upgrade to additional copies of 1-mana cantrips.
I’ll definitely be trying them out in place of SV at some point though. It really just needs testing.
With the spoil of Opt, (http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/opt.html) do you guys think we will be jamming this over Serum Visions? I'm very interested in seeing how this plays out in Modern. Seems like this is just powerful enough compared to Preordain which seems to be too strong.
With the spoil of Opt, (http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/opt.html) do you guys think we will be jamming this over Serum Visions? I'm very interested in seeing how this plays out in Modern. Seems like this is just powerful enough compared to Preordain which seems to be too strong.
With the spoil of Opt, (http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/opt.html) do you guys think we will be jamming this over Serum Visions? I'm very interested in seeing how this plays out in Modern. Seems like this is just powerful enough compared to Preordain which seems to be too strong.
I don' think opt will be as good in shadow. Shadow has enough instants to flashback. Other dedcks like UW control don;t...
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Opt doesn't jive too well with maindeck LotV, so I'll most likely be moving mine back to the SB. I've been testing out just basically substituting my Serum Visions for Opts and I feel the card is enough of an improvement to warrant no MB Lily. Just being able to keep up mana for Stubborn Denial and then EOT Opt or Snap+Opt feels great, and so far I'm actually quite impressed with it in our deck.
Edit: Do note that this is just quick testing, and a general feeling I've got after playing a few games with the card. It might well just be variance skewing the results for me.
First I would suggest reformatting your list. At the very least keep your lands clumped separate from your non-lands (and creatures clumped separate as well). My eyes are tired from working in the sun so I may be reading your list wrong, but it appears to really be a different deck. It is technically in Grixis colors and runs Death's Shadow, but other than that really isn't a Grixis Death's Shadow deck. Seems more like a version of UR Kiln Fiend. Your deck seems more of an all in aggro deck. GDS is really more of a midrange deck. Two decks share a lot of cards, but really play on different axes. Maybe trying asking your question here?
This is basically exactly how I felt.
Plenty of people jump in and suggest strange changes based on gut feelings, no testing, or nonsensical logic, but this is a well argued, well thought out article.
I really liked what he pegged as the 'untouchable' core of the deck. If there is anything I would argue with, it is the second Terminate, which could reasonably turn into a different removal spell. Having this slot be Terminate or something similar (Dreadbore, Dismember) is correct most of the time so I am okay with it. The core of the deck is the fact that it gets to play 20-some amazing 1 mana spells, and this captures that very well.
The 4th Snapcaster Mage being a flex slot feel blasphemous to long time blue players, but I see the logic. The deck is very low to the ground (our two drop slot consists of "play two one drops"), and there is only so much room for 3 mana spells. If he is looking to find room for LotV, then you have to be looking here and not at the cheap spells.
I have been playing one Liliana of the Veil in the main deck, and it has been excellent. For a deck that is, at its core, a midrange good stuff deck, slamming the most powerful 3 drop in the format into the deck isn't a hard sell. I think the biggest strike against Liliana has always been that it didn't play well with the spell slots, specifically Stubborn Denial and Kolaghan's Command. These promote holding spells in your hand, which Liliana does not. Plussing Liliana also often entails ditching extra lands, making it hard to full utilize Command and Snapcaster.
The third IoK also makes a lot of sense in this build. A big strength of 6 discard spells instead of 7 or 8 was that they didn't clog up your hand later in the game as much, but with more Lilianas to ditch them later on this is less of a problem. 6 is a good number, but not quite enough to ensure that you can always lead on one. I have always been a big fan of Stubborn Denial to back you up against top-decks and other non-sense, but I understand the argument in favor of shifting to more of a tap-out strategy.
Cutting Denial entirely is still a hard sell for me, but I do think that this approach or the current stock 2 makes more sense than some lists I have seen that bump it up to 3 in the Main. Denial is an absolute powerhouse against a lot of decks, so I do want access to them. That being said, plenty of decks have sideboarded Spell Piece, Negate, Countersquall, and Dispel since forever, so a streamlined, tap-out, discard-focused main deck with countermagic in the side isn't an overly ridiculous idea. This also depends a lot on what you expect to play against. If you play nothing but Burn, Gx Tron, and Valakut then you should definitely be maindecking 3 or 4, but Modern isn't that simple.
All in all, a lot of food for thought in this article. You have to careful not to just say 'well PV is better at Magic than me so he is obviously right', but on the other hand when one of the greatest players ever rights an in-depth article about the deck you are playing you would be a fool not to listen.
Ultimately, like most Modern decisions, it should be a pure metacall, i don't think cutting Denial entirely from the deck or even the MB is correct. If you expect a lot of Control, Mirrors and attrition based matchups then being more proactive could be better. Only testing can know.
Try not to street wraith and let them get your life total down before going for the kill?
On the other hand I completely disagree (as others have pointed out) with cutting denials. The card has been amazing for me and honestly without it and trying to go more "jundish" I would probably just run jund instead and have the increased amount of discard and threat density.
Also tested out lili in the main before. Not for a huge amount of games, granted, but as others pointed out she doesn't help with the matchups we struggle with at all. She's amazing in the mirror but that's more rare these days and most of the creatures you need to edict are sideboard cards from most decks anyway.
I'm gonna be testing out one battle rage in the main instead to see if it deserves a slot again. It gets through chump blockers and helps against decks where we need to be very aggressive such as valakut or to a lesser extent tron. Both those decks can have very annoying chump blockers too in the form of sakura tribe elder and matter reshaper so I think it's worth a shot. I'll post my results when I have enough games to be sure.
Eldrazi tron is a very hard matchup in my experience(which is a LOT of matches since my brother owns the deck and it's his only one). Chalice wrecks you hard. Matter Reshaper is annoying, their late game is better because of potential Ulamogs and Walking Ballistas, and MB Relics are a beating. Post board more Relics and Hangarback Walker make the matchup very skill intensive. I'm still looking for a good plan against them, TBR and shatter effects, Young Pyromancer, Rejection(this is a must anyways) and LOTV. I haven't found the best strategy this far, although a good plan for the matchup is playing aggro, drop Shadows fast after several Thoughtseizes and try to make them 6/6 ASAP. Post board the same apllies only that you have Ceremonious Rejection that if they don't have Cavern or Chalice out you will win backing it up with Snapcaster.
The ideal play is play a delve guy in turn 2 and go for the beat down, and turn on denial. Less reduce your life with street wraith.
However, ppl tend to bring down number of thoughtseize to 1 or 0 in Game 2, but always remember that Burns player's biggest threat still is an early Eidolon and only way to deal with it is rip their hand before they could play them.
Counterspell is all star, Inquisition and Collective Brutality is all star against them.
Game 2 cut 4 street wraith, 1-2 thoughtseize, bring in 2 collective brutality, 1-2 stubborn denial, 1-2 Temur battle rage if you have them
Agreed with your fellow community, not sure about the MB's Liliana of the Veil, however I felt Denial still important to be play. Although there are some matchups they are held in hand for long time (for instance against aggro creature based), but not necessary die in hand as affinity has galvanic blast, merfolk has vapour snag, eldrazi has their path etc. Probably Game 2 would be siding those denial out anyway against those creature based deck.
Mixing it up with gm_jack and the YP talk, i tested it a bunch of games and it wasn't impressive at all, just ok. Following the premise of YP inclusion in GDS, i just think particualrly against Eldrazi it's just better to fight their hate with shatter effects and whatnot. By Force, Explosives, Rejection, have carried me more often than not. YP might be another angle of attack against everyones hate but it's fragile. Eldrzi will just run over him with Smasher and Endbringer, Walking Ballista, or they will just demolish your board with All is Dust.
Like most other matchups, they best route is Big Shadow after several Thoughtseizes. Also, removal has to be used in a purely proactive way, don't save Termiantes for big dumb fatties, clear the way for your threats to punch and get them low so they are constrained. Their late game is better than ours because of Tron lands and huge Ballistas. Those are my 2cents in regard of the Etron matchup.
To round up the YP discussion, i don't love the card but i could see it working just fine as a hedge in heavy Death's Shadow/BGx metas against Lotv. He is somewhat soft to Lili Last Hope though. My gut feeling is that it's better to play around hate with strong hands and tight play rather than playing threats that dodge GY hate. I will testing him a little more surely and whatever i extract from the experience i will report back here.
Same as with any combo deck try to max out on all relevant disruption and do your best to get a quick clock going. The faster the game is the better your chances of winning. Grave hate here is very important as well, surgical is by far better than spellbomb for this matchup however. Also regular sweepers are not very good here but temur battle rage is amazing if you run it either in the main or the side, if you don't have battle rage and they've assembled the combo you honestly might as well scoop since they'll have infinite chump blockers.
I plan on trying it out for sure, but I'm hesitant to believe it's a straight up upgrade, since I've had many games where I keep a 1 lander with Serum Visions to bottom 2 non-landers to hit my second land drop. Scry 2 vs Scry 1 is nothing to scoff at.
It’s not quite as clear cut as that. Opt provides instant speed and an upgrade in immediate selection, which is important for games that go long. It also allows you to hold up Snapcaster Mage on turn 3+. Serum Visions is FAR superior on turn 1, it’s better at planning the next few turns and it plays very nice with Street Wraith, allowing you to sculpt your hand with some instant speed selection (via Wraith).
I’m still not sure which is superior, since both shine at slightly different things and during different stages of the game. GDS is a weird deck, since it plays at sorcery speed… sometimes and it plays at instant speed… sometimes.
After waffling back and forth on the idea, I’m starting to think Serum Visions may just be superior as the primary cantrip, while Opt acts as an upgrade to additional copies of 1-mana cantrips.
I’ll definitely be trying them out in place of SV at some point though. It really just needs testing.
I don' think opt will be as good in shadow. Shadow has enough instants to flashback. Other dedcks like UW control don;t...
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Edit: Do note that this is just quick testing, and a general feeling I've got after playing a few games with the card. It might well just be variance skewing the results for me.