Damnation against eldrazi will probably most of the time end exiled by TKS. Don't see it as an answer, maybe go up to 3 rejections instead which are gold. Try to thoughtseize their bombs and then Rejection snap rejection and terminate if something lands, all that should help a lot.
You're not wrong. However if they have chalice on one. Then rejection just dead if you don't see a k command. Like I said I'm gonna test it out.
I've been running 1x Damnation for a long time, even as Grixis Delver. Every time I try to outthink it, I end up in a situation where I wish I had it as a sweeper, and not a Pyroclasm, AotG, or other (namely a mix of out of control Goyfs or or other things, etc). Also SB EE and Izzet Staticaster.
Hi guys, just wanted to hear your opinion about Hollow One in grixis shell. If this make a success, he would be another early threat with replace Thought Scour to Faithless Looting. Hmmm, maybe Izzet charm has its place as well? Just a curiosity from mine
I don't think the card (hollow one) would be very strong in this list. A 1 mana 4/4 after faithless looting isn't as good as a 1 mana 4/5 with an ability or a 1 mana 5/5 after thought scour. Plus not running thought scours make tasigur and angler far worse and become unreliable to cast early on. It being an artifact is also relevant in the mirror due to k command. Thought scour is also a better topdeck in the late game as it actually cantrips whereas looting would be a dead draw.
Maybe in the side as an additional threat to go around grave hate but even then grave hate takes out flashback from looting making it much worse and I think we simply have better options (planeswalkers, removing or countering the grave hate, etc)
I've been running 1x Damnation for a long time, even as Grixis Delver. Every time I try to outthink it, I end up in a situation where I wish I had it as a sweeper, and not a Pyroclasm, AotG, or other (namely a mix of out of control Goyfs or or other things, etc). Also SB EE and Izzet Staticaster.
Sorry for the double post didn't see this one. I absolutely loved damnation in grixis control and was even up to 2 copies at times but I don't think it's as useful for this list. The benefit to those smaller, conditional sweepers you mentioned is that it's usually going to be 1 sided in our favour so we still have threats on the field once it resolves. Goyfs and the like can be handled by the playset of push and the terminates in the list, not to mention our creatures aren't exactly small either.
The most useful matchup for damnation is against e tron but in that matchup we have to go under them and play the beatdown/disruption. If we start trying to play like a control deck and take a turn off to reset the board, we're going to give them too much time and their creatures/planeswalkers especially post board are just going to be so much better than what we're playing.
After having lots of failure with this deck I ended up winning FNM last night (after barely squeaking into top 8) in which I beat titan shift in both the semi's and the finals. I'm mainly curious as to how other people approach this match-up. My maindeck is 19 land, completely stock.
I sideboarded by cutting 4 fatal pushes, 2 kolaghan's command and 1 street wraith. I brought in 2 Liliana, 2 Temur Battle-Rage, 2 collective brutality, 1 stubborn denial.
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Bring in the K Command vs them, and possibly even By Force. They should have Chalice of the Void postboard.
I don't think that is very common, I don't see any lists on goldfish playing chalice. Is K-command still worth it at with no chalice? I guess engineered explosives gets played in shift.
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After having lots of failure with this deck I ended up winning FNM last night (after barely squeaking into top 8) in which I beat titan shift in both the semi's and the finals. I'm mainly curious as to how other people approach this match-up. My maindeck is 19 land, completely stock.
I sideboarded by cutting 4 fatal pushes, 2 kolaghan's command and 1 street wraith. I brought in 2 Liliana, 2 Temur Battle-Rage, 2 collective brutality, 1 stubborn denial.
I think what you board in and board out is good. I would bring in 1 EE as some of them playing chalice and our discard are very good against it unless they have topdeck it. I would play surgical extraction when discard a titan and extract them are enough to win the game.
I think what you board in and board out is good. I would bring in 1 EE as some of them playing chalice and our discard are very good against it unless they have topdeck it. I would play surgical extraction when discard a titan and extract them are enough to win the game.
I agree,I actually just before this tournament switched off of surgical in favor of temur battle-rage. Thus far (from a very small sample size) I've liked battle-rage much much more. It lets you steal games from otherwise difficult match-ups, especially against decks playing lingering souls. I additionally have found surgical as kind of underwhelming, it is of course very good here.
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I think what you board in and board out is good. I would bring in 1 EE as some of them playing chalice and our discard are very good against it unless they have topdeck it. I would play surgical extraction when discard a titan and extract them are enough to win the game.
I agree,I actually just before this tournament switched off of surgical in favor of temur battle-rage. Thus far (from a very small sample size) I've liked battle-rage much much more. It lets you steal games from otherwise difficult match-ups, especially against decks playing lingering souls. I additionally have found surgical as kind of underwhelming, it is of course very good here.
I actually take off temur battle rage from my 75 long time ago. Its excellent when your threat stick in battlefield. Been stuck in my hand before without having chance to cast it. Against tokens, I been using last hope instead and so far she is doing extremely good job. But I guess it personal choices after all.
Bring in the K Command vs them, and possibly even By Force. They should have Chalice of the Void postboard.
I don't think that is very common, I don't see any lists on goldfish playing chalice. Is K-command still worth it at with no chalice? I guess engineered explosives gets played in shift.
Chalice is really good against us, and there's still a reasonable chance that any given GR valakut deck has it (to make up a number say 10%), and the downside is low - shock + discard still helps vs them. I think it's worth it.
EE is definitely not worth it though (someone suggested it up thread). It costs 1 less to deal with chalice, but that's basically all it does.
I've been running 1x Damnation for a long time, even as Grixis Delver. Every time I try to outthink it, I end up in a situation where I wish I had it as a sweeper, and not a Pyroclasm, AotG, or other (namely a mix of out of control Goyfs or or other things, etc). Also SB EE and Izzet Staticaster.
Sorry for the double post didn't see this one. I absolutely loved damnation in grixis control and was even up to 2 copies at times but I don't think it's as useful for this list. The benefit to those smaller, conditional sweepers you mentioned is that it's usually going to be 1 sided in our favour so we still have threats on the field once it resolves. Goyfs and the like can be handled by the playset of push and the terminates in the list, not to mention our creatures aren't exactly small either.
The most useful matchup for damnation is against e tron but in that matchup we have to go under them and play the beatdown/disruption. If we start trying to play like a control deck and take a turn off to reset the board, we're going to give them too much time and their creatures/planeswalkers especially post board are just going to be so much better than what we're playing.
Good thoughts, yes. With this deck having, often, larger than 3 strength creatures on the board, perhaps there's a better argument now against Damnation. But we can also re establish presence quickly. When I'm ready to use damnation, it's frequently not turn 4, but T5 or 6. So damnation, DS, Tasigur, go. Often that's it with a cleared board.
Pyroclasm is best where there is a lot of aggro and swarms where players go wide quickly, and AoG was at its peak value when Abzan Company was Tier 1 where exiling Finks etc was more prominent. Maybe it's my meta, buy there are lots of 4+ strength creatures to deal with these days. With Tas and DS on the board, against decks with lots of 2/3 strength creatures, I usually don't worry about a sweeper. But I keep an Engineered Explosives and Izzet Staticaster for smaller nuisances.
I've been testing Expedite. Too often I have two nice DS with a Tas and have to wait to attack. Often one or two of them get eaten before I get out of summoning sickness. Temur Battle a Rage seems to be a win more, rather than win now. I think TBR is best main decked, to steal a win, as I find I really want solutions coming out of the sideboard. Card draw is never useless. I've also been in and out with Censor in a flex spot. I like its choices.
Bring in the K Command vs them, and possibly even By Force. They should have Chalice of the Void postboard.
I don't think that is very common, I don't see any lists on goldfish playing chalice. Is K-command still worth it at with no chalice? I guess engineered explosives gets played in shift.
Chalice is really good against us, and there's still a reasonable chance that any given GR valakut deck has it (to make up a number say 10%), and the downside is low - shock + discard still helps vs them. I think it's worth it.
EE is definitely not worth it though (someone suggested it up thread). It costs 1 less to deal with chalice, but that's basically all it does.
keep in mind a lot of valakut decks have 4 relics in their 75 as well which adds nonzero value to kcommand post game. i used to board out kcommand but i now leave them in vs valakut for these reasons
Bring in the K Command vs them, and possibly even By Force. They should have Chalice of the Void postboard.
I don't think that is very common, I don't see any lists on goldfish playing chalice. Is K-command still worth it at with no chalice? I guess engineered explosives gets played in shift.
Chalice is really good against us, and there's still a reasonable chance that any given GR valakut deck has it (to make up a number say 10%), and the downside is low - shock + discard still helps vs them. I think it's worth it.
EE is definitely not worth it though (someone suggested it up thread). It costs 1 less to deal with chalice, but that's basically all it does.
keep in mind a lot of valakut decks have 4 relics in their 75 as well which adds nonzero value to kcommand post game. i used to board out kcommand but i now leave them in vs valakut for these reasons
That's a good point, I imagine you ended up trimming street wraiths?
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Trimming street wraiths there is not a good idea in the matchup. You need to be fast, and early + large shadows help that a lot. The best cards to things like Push and Bolt - removal that doesn't kill a Primeval Titan. You can also shave a snapcaster because it's slow, but it depends on what you have to bring in.
Greetings!
Now that the hype for this deck has been going down, i've finally decided to give it a try as i already own all pieces from Grixis Delver and old Suicide Zoo.
I've taken a pretty stock list for my first few test games and so far i like it.
Pyromancer is a pet card of mine and i really like him against Midrange/Control decks so far (against Jeskai/UR he feels worse because of Electrolyze) and represents and additional threat that does not rely on our life total and GY.
I've seen some lists running Deprive over Inquisition of Kozilek, has anyone tried both versions and can provide some input about Deprive in this deck?
Haven't tried it personally put I can see deprive working much better with pyro and playing a little bit closer to your standard Delver lists. Your pyros are in the side so it's not as big of a deal but generally if you're running pyro I think the lists with 2 sleights are going to be better since the extra cantrips are more valuable.
There was a list posted not too long ago with deprive, sleight and pyro in the main over street wraith (along with bolts which again synergise with pyro) so I'd look at starting there if you really wanna make the most of it.
It's been a week, but I played in GP Birmingham to a 10-5 finish with this list. After discussing the deck with a few people I changed 2 Fatal Push to 2 Lightning Bolt. That's the only real discussion from the main deck. For an average player with modest aspirations at a GP I don't think the difference really mattered. And actually for the matchups I played it was probably better than pushes.I think other than the mirror, eldrazi tron, and goyfs bolt is almost killing the same things that push does. There were at least three times I was able to use bolt to kill planeswalkers which allowed me to play another terminate in the board over a dreadbore.
I don't have the best memory but here's how I did:
No Byes - officially
Round One - W 2:0 - Standard Humans
Deck with standard format humans from a year ago. Nothing to say here. But pretty much a bye.
Round Two - W 2:0 - Abzan
Game one hard fight with multiple siege rhinos but able to close while at 2 life. Game two he has a bad hand and I win.
Round Three - W 2:1 - Abzan
Lost game one to a treetop village I didn't see. Able to use bolt to kill a scavenging ooze but it was dead in hand vs his goyf while I had a bigger shadow out. No souls in game 2/3 and I'm able to win.
Round Four - W 2:0 - Burn
Early delve threats both games able to put on pressure and take it away. End of game two I was at 6 and he had three land and a fetch while at 2. Any two spells kill me at my end step. He cracks fetch, I flash in a snapcaster targeting stub with just a fetch up (trying to get a reaction), he skull cracks me in response and I bolt for the win in response. His punt but I had to do something weird in order to give myself the chance of his misplay.
Round Five - L 0:2 - UWR Control with Quellers
I'm exhausted and misplay and lose (I said go ahead without attacking). Bolt plus snappy flashing in to kill Gideon.
Round Six - L 0:2 - Grixis Shadow
He blows me out with a Street Wraith game 1 on a Shadow vs Shadow battle. Game two he has the last threat.
Note that with all the Lilis running around we do want to keep some Stubborn Denials in post board.
Round Seven - W 2:1 - Lantern Control
Game one I lose big time. 3 Bridges out.
Game two - turn three delve threat with no bridge out and I win.
Game three - I have Angler and she can play bridge on three or ghost quarter herself to inquisition. Chooses the latter and inquisition and extracts all my k commands. Plays a bridge and I get a LotVeil out and ultimate (bridge vs everything else). She's at 8 and I'm at 12 with Angeler and Two Shadows. She keeps bridge, draws land, pithing needle (countered) and a two drop. So I can now attack with the shadows crack 2 fetches and get a shockland to get the kill.
Round Eight - L 1:2 - Grixis Shadow
Lose the mirror again. Nothing too special, but I need to pick up points on the mirror.
Round Nine - Win and In for Day Two - Esper Shadow (heart sinks) W: 2-1
Game one - lose against souls.
Game two - he plays Ranger of Eos for 2 Shadows (ugh). I have lili last hope out. He plays three shadows and I snap terminate his Ranger. Then proceed to Engineered Explosives all 3 Shadows away (woo!). The EE was for the souls but I'll take it.
Game three - I just draw great, get Lili out, explosives away a shadow, staticaster for souls!
Day Two - I'm tired so I'll just run down the score.
Round Ten - W 2:1 - Elves (He played worship which I think is wrong - one less threat to worry about)
Round Eleven - L 2:0 - UW Control (game 1 - 4 spreading seas and 2 tectonic edges)
Round Twelve - W 2:1 - Eldrazi Stompy (game three on the play I fetch, shock, and bolt myself. Play 2 shadows turn 2. He kills ones instead of playing a chalice. I play a third one and start to attack until I win)
Round Thirteen - W 2:0 - Affinity
Round Fourteen - L 0:2 - Titan Shift (game 1 I keep a very interactive hand blind - inquisition, push, snap, visions, 3 land - but not for shift)
Round Fifteen - W 2:1 - Dredge (I have a good hand game 2, nihil turn one. Followed by anger. Battle Raged Shadow. Game 3 his hand is the worse)
Overall, it felt fine having the two bolts. Helped killed two Gideons and a Lili. Also as a top deck against 3 mana elf creatures. Loved playing the deck but I think I'll take a break for now. I was just learning it for the GP.
Thanks everyone for all the resources - it was so helpful.
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You're not wrong. However if they have chalice on one. Then rejection just dead if you don't see a k command. Like I said I'm gonna test it out.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
Maybe in the side as an additional threat to go around grave hate but even then grave hate takes out flashback from looting making it much worse and I think we simply have better options (planeswalkers, removing or countering the grave hate, etc)
Sorry for the double post didn't see this one. I absolutely loved damnation in grixis control and was even up to 2 copies at times but I don't think it's as useful for this list. The benefit to those smaller, conditional sweepers you mentioned is that it's usually going to be 1 sided in our favour so we still have threats on the field once it resolves. Goyfs and the like can be handled by the playset of push and the terminates in the list, not to mention our creatures aren't exactly small either.
The most useful matchup for damnation is against e tron but in that matchup we have to go under them and play the beatdown/disruption. If we start trying to play like a control deck and take a turn off to reset the board, we're going to give them too much time and their creatures/planeswalkers especially post board are just going to be so much better than what we're playing.
After having lots of failure with this deck I ended up winning FNM last night (after barely squeaking into top 8) in which I beat titan shift in both the semi's and the finals. I'm mainly curious as to how other people approach this match-up. My maindeck is 19 land, completely stock.
My sideboard:
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Collective Brutality
2 Temur Battle-rage
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 By Force
I sideboarded by cutting 4 fatal pushes, 2 kolaghan's command and 1 street wraith. I brought in 2 Liliana, 2 Temur Battle-Rage, 2 collective brutality, 1 stubborn denial.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
I don't think that is very common, I don't see any lists on goldfish playing chalice. Is K-command still worth it at with no chalice? I guess engineered explosives gets played in shift.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
I think what you board in and board out is good. I would bring in 1 EE as some of them playing chalice and our discard are very good against it unless they have topdeck it. I would play surgical extraction when discard a titan and extract them are enough to win the game.
I agree,I actually just before this tournament switched off of surgical in favor of temur battle-rage. Thus far (from a very small sample size) I've liked battle-rage much much more. It lets you steal games from otherwise difficult match-ups, especially against decks playing lingering souls. I additionally have found surgical as kind of underwhelming, it is of course very good here.
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
I actually take off temur battle rage from my 75 long time ago. Its excellent when your threat stick in battlefield. Been stuck in my hand before without having chance to cast it. Against tokens, I been using last hope instead and so far she is doing extremely good job. But I guess it personal choices after all.
Chalice is really good against us, and there's still a reasonable chance that any given GR valakut deck has it (to make up a number say 10%), and the downside is low - shock + discard still helps vs them. I think it's worth it.
EE is definitely not worth it though (someone suggested it up thread). It costs 1 less to deal with chalice, but that's basically all it does.
Good thoughts, yes. With this deck having, often, larger than 3 strength creatures on the board, perhaps there's a better argument now against Damnation. But we can also re establish presence quickly. When I'm ready to use damnation, it's frequently not turn 4, but T5 or 6. So damnation, DS, Tasigur, go. Often that's it with a cleared board.
Pyroclasm is best where there is a lot of aggro and swarms where players go wide quickly, and AoG was at its peak value when Abzan Company was Tier 1 where exiling Finks etc was more prominent. Maybe it's my meta, buy there are lots of 4+ strength creatures to deal with these days. With Tas and DS on the board, against decks with lots of 2/3 strength creatures, I usually don't worry about a sweeper. But I keep an Engineered Explosives and Izzet Staticaster for smaller nuisances.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
That's a good point, I imagine you ended up trimming street wraiths?
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
Haven't tried it personally put I can see deprive working much better with pyro and playing a little bit closer to your standard Delver lists. Your pyros are in the side so it's not as big of a deal but generally if you're running pyro I think the lists with 2 sleights are going to be better since the extra cantrips are more valuable.
There was a list posted not too long ago with deprive, sleight and pyro in the main over street wraith (along with bolts which again synergise with pyro) so I'd look at starting there if you really wanna make the most of it.
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's Shadow
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Terminate
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Temur Battle Rage
I don't have the best memory but here's how I did:
No Byes - officially
Round One - W 2:0 - Standard Humans
Deck with standard format humans from a year ago. Nothing to say here. But pretty much a bye.
Round Two - W 2:0 - Abzan
Game one hard fight with multiple siege rhinos but able to close while at 2 life. Game two he has a bad hand and I win.
Round Three - W 2:1 - Abzan
Lost game one to a treetop village I didn't see. Able to use bolt to kill a scavenging ooze but it was dead in hand vs his goyf while I had a bigger shadow out. No souls in game 2/3 and I'm able to win.
Round Four - W 2:0 - Burn
Early delve threats both games able to put on pressure and take it away. End of game two I was at 6 and he had three land and a fetch while at 2. Any two spells kill me at my end step. He cracks fetch, I flash in a snapcaster targeting stub with just a fetch up (trying to get a reaction), he skull cracks me in response and I bolt for the win in response. His punt but I had to do something weird in order to give myself the chance of his misplay.
Round Five - L 0:2 - UWR Control with Quellers
I'm exhausted and misplay and lose (I said go ahead without attacking). Bolt plus snappy flashing in to kill Gideon.
Round Six - L 0:2 - Grixis Shadow
He blows me out with a Street Wraith game 1 on a Shadow vs Shadow battle. Game two he has the last threat.
Note that with all the Lilis running around we do want to keep some Stubborn Denials in post board.
Round Seven - W 2:1 - Lantern Control
Game one I lose big time. 3 Bridges out.
Game two - turn three delve threat with no bridge out and I win.
Game three - I have Angler and she can play bridge on three or ghost quarter herself to inquisition. Chooses the latter and inquisition and extracts all my k commands. Plays a bridge and I get a LotVeil out and ultimate (bridge vs everything else). She's at 8 and I'm at 12 with Angeler and Two Shadows. She keeps bridge, draws land, pithing needle (countered) and a two drop. So I can now attack with the shadows crack 2 fetches and get a shockland to get the kill.
Round Eight - L 1:2 - Grixis Shadow
Lose the mirror again. Nothing too special, but I need to pick up points on the mirror.
Round Nine - Win and In for Day Two - Esper Shadow (heart sinks) W: 2-1
Game one - lose against souls.
Game two - he plays Ranger of Eos for 2 Shadows (ugh). I have lili last hope out. He plays three shadows and I snap terminate his Ranger. Then proceed to Engineered Explosives all 3 Shadows away (woo!). The EE was for the souls but I'll take it.
Game three - I just draw great, get Lili out, explosives away a shadow, staticaster for souls!
Day Two - I'm tired so I'll just run down the score.
Round Ten - W 2:1 - Elves (He played worship which I think is wrong - one less threat to worry about)
Round Eleven - L 2:0 - UW Control (game 1 - 4 spreading seas and 2 tectonic edges)
Round Twelve - W 2:1 - Eldrazi Stompy (game three on the play I fetch, shock, and bolt myself. Play 2 shadows turn 2. He kills ones instead of playing a chalice. I play a third one and start to attack until I win)
Round Thirteen - W 2:0 - Affinity
Round Fourteen - L 0:2 - Titan Shift (game 1 I keep a very interactive hand blind - inquisition, push, snap, visions, 3 land - but not for shift)
Round Fifteen - W 2:1 - Dredge (I have a good hand game 2, nihil turn one. Followed by anger. Battle Raged Shadow. Game 3 his hand is the worse)
Overall, it felt fine having the two bolts. Helped killed two Gideons and a Lili. Also as a top deck against 3 mana elf creatures. Loved playing the deck but I think I'll take a break for now. I was just learning it for the GP.
Thanks everyone for all the resources - it was so helpful.