Reducing the dependency on the graveyard is something I'm also striving for. That's why I, unlike some other posters, wasn't enthusiastic about Claim // Fame when it first was spoiled.
Yeah, that's been my position since it's been spoiled. Interesting in a different Death's Shadow shell perhaps, but not this one.
I tested Pia and Kiran Nalaar a while ago as well, but hitting four lands by turn four is not what the deck usually wants to do. The fourth land would otherwise be a natural candidate for discarding through LotV's +1 ability, so this doesn't seem overly synergistic.
The thing is, vs the decks where you want P&K on turn 4, you typically side out LotV: Affinity, Elves, etc. In the mirror and vs other grindy matchups, it's not so important to have P&K right on turn 4. You're playing a long game, and you'll have time to hit those land drops. Yes P&K would be better if you could hit drop it on turn 4 consistently, but it's still very good.
I've been playing Kozilek's return for the first time. Been an Angers devout since day 1 because of dredge, coco and other dorky strategies. Been better than advertised - really wrecks affinity
Would appreciate some thoughts on a young pyro build here. Also, I've been trying Claim/Fame and it's definitely not a mainboard card. It's dead as hell in a surprisingly number of matchups. I'm not convinced this card is worth playing, period. Think it could be a pretty good SB card though. Also, I should've known this but Gifts has been terrible. A lot of games you either don't reach 4 mana or the game's over before 4 mana either way
Dismember>Terminate is a concession to YP, but I still hate the card..
Would appreciate some thoughts on a young pyro build here. Also, I've been trying Claim/Fame and it's definitely not a mainboard card. It's dead as hell in a surprisingly number of matchups. I'm not convinced this card is worth playing, period. Think it could be a pretty good SB card though. Also, I should've known this but Gifts has been terrible. A lot of games you either don't reach 4 mana or the game's over before 4 mana either way
Dismember>Terminate is a concession to YP, but I still hate the card..
Have you been testing it ? Could you go more in depths on your testing ? I'm really curious about this new build with YP! Thanks!
I just started playing around with YP. haven't really felt its effect yet. It stole a few games as a solo threat vs UW control when it was unchecked for a few turns and it helped me draw a verdict on only one threat, but i need to test a bit more.
If you want to play YP you're going to want to capitalize on its potential as much as you can. I would definitely add some number of Sleight of Hands to the list. I originally had Claim in the deck but it was too slow so I just made it a Kommand instead. I'm really liking this leaner version of the deck.
If you want to play YP you're going to want to capitalize on its potential as much as you can. I would definitely add some number of Sleight of Hands to the list. I originally had Claim in the deck but it was too slow so I just made it a Kommand instead. I'm really liking this leaner version of the deck.
Here's my list for reference:
Your list is basically Ari Lax's list with YP, I tried couple weeks shaving lands and a K. Command. In a competitive meta, where you have tons of Chalices of the Void and LD is so weak... I even tried 18 lands and 2 Sleight... when I got back to the stock 19 lands, never felt soo good. With YP probably we should go down to 18 lands and 2 sleight of hands ? But I really fell that we can't cut K. Command in a serious meta.
I think all of these YP builds have too many Snapcasters. Shave a couple for more cheap spells, IMO. Or to get one of the delve creatures back.
Still Snap synergizes with YP and is a beast on the grindy fiesta. Same as I said above, i tried the other build that shaves a snap, 4 is a must he is so good right now.
I think all of these YP builds have too many Snapcasters. Shave a couple for more cheap spells, IMO. Or to get one of the delve creatures back.
Still Snap synergizes with YP and is a beast on the grindy fiesta. Same as I said above, i tried the other build that shaves a snap, 4 is a must he is so good right now.
YP is at its best when you can untap and cast a bunch of one mana spells, making a bunch of tokens. Snapcaster does flash back a spell, but it's 3+ mana for 1 spell. I'm not sure that <4 snapcasters is correct in a YP build, but that's definitely where I would go first when testing it. Push the idea to it's limit to really get a feel for how strong it is.
YP is at its best when you can untap and cast a bunch of one mana spells, making a bunch of tokens. Snapcaster does flash back a spell, but it's 3+ mana for 1 spell. I'm not sure that <4 snapcasters is correct in a YP build, but that's definitely where I would go first when testing it. Push the idea to it's limit to really get a feel for how strong it is.
It's the reason why I cut Kommand. Snap has a lot more utility than Kommand does and is not red. The goal is to limit the number of red spells in the deck at a given time and I have to hedge. The whole point of playing YP is to have yourself a hedge against chalice while having more threats and reducing the number of clunky/dead cards. In this regard I could see cutting a Snapcaster as well.
The whole point in playing a version like this deck is to hedge against certain things. Land destruction not being one of them. This version aims to minimalize against grave hate as much as possible and have an edge against chalice. More decks right now are running grave hate than land destruction because the threat of Dredge and Living End is very real. LD also isn't that great against Eldrazi Tron opposed to basic tron which has fallen out of favor.
I did want to fit some number of Lightning Bolts into the deck but ultimately I wasn't able to cut enough slots for them. I refuse to run bolt in this deck unless I have at least 2.
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The goal is to limit the number of red spells in the deck at a given time and I have to hedge. The whole point of playing YP is to have yourself a hedge against chalice while having more threats and reducing the number of clunky/dead cards.
This plan appears to have a flaw, though: The one tier 1 deck that is running four copies of Chalice of the Void maindeck is Eldrazi Tron. Unfortunately, Young Pyromancer is not very good in this matchup because of Walking Ballista, trample on Reality Smasher, All is Dust and even Warping Wail.
I agree with you, however, that one good reason for running Young Pyromancer is reducing the dependency on the graveyard. The second good reason is IMHO the recent rise in popularity of LotV.
At ehat poont do you take the yp build and put back in delver
When Gitaxian Probe gets unbanned or a card very similar to it comes out (like a Wraith but a Sorcery). Or if they ever decide to unban preordain. Wizards pls just once.
The deck still has answers to Chalice in the 8 main deck disruption spells, and can potentially go up to more. 1 vs. 2 Kommands doesn't make a whole ton of a difference, especially when severely upping the count on cantrips in the maindeck. Ballista and All is Dust are a problem, but All is Dust was always a problem, you just had to race it or had to have timely disruption. Ballista is a little more annoying but at least they are forced to fire it off earlier than they would want to gun down YP and his buddies. I didn't actually know that ETron deck were putting back Wail in the main, IIRC they ran dismembers because it also dealt with delve creatures.
The card certainly isn't broken or anything, it's just another option you can take if your meta is hostile towards normal Grixis Shadow decks and you don't happen to have any other decks available. Feel free to tweak some numbers here and there if you want to test it out, I do think that some bolts or more dismembers could be in the main but I didn't want to have to eat into more Scours than I needed to. The side is still all over the place, Izzet Staticaster could probably be in place of a field wipe, there's a chance some Surgicals should be in there because of YP synergy and I think Painful Truths would be a great addition in a YP build of the deck.
Most of you are probably doing fine with the stock 19 land version so if it ain't broke no need to fix it.
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I didn't actually know that ETron deck were putting back Wail in the main, IIRC they ran dismembers because it also dealt with delve creatures.
Usually, the Wails come from the side. I lost quite a few Dark Confidants to it when playing my other deck. But I guess if Young Pyromancer doesn't show up in game 1, it is pretty much save from Wail because they don't know that we are running it.
I've jammed a YP list into a few competitive leagues now. Surprisingly (or not) I found it dead in more matchups than I had expected. it was deader than dead vs affinity, Valakut, not good against burn, merfolk, too slow vs storm. it shone vs UW control where it can take over as a solitary threat that will eat a verdict by himself. and death's shadow. Feels like this can be a SB plan, TBH
Affinity is now the number one deck in mtgoldfish's Modern Metagame Breakdown. The list is certainly not 100% accurate and we will never have exact numbers, but this is a good sign nonetheless.
Do you guys think a piece of this deck will get a ban? Either street wraith or death's shadow?
There is a SCG going on, is the deck dominant on this tournament as well?
Warning for Bank talk outside of the State of the Meta Thread. Please take any and all ban dissensions there.
- Torpf
Maybe some time in the future, but I don't think it will happen soon, reasons:
The metagame has adjusted to the presence of Death's Shadow decks and looks healthy and diverse.
Grixis Shadow has not put up many spectacular finishes in recent major events, despite being played by some of the best players.
The deck is not easy to learn or easy to master. I've seen flavor of the month players move on fairly quickly. Other decks, like Eldrazi Tron, require considerable less understanding of the other decks in the format.
The Grixis version of the deck keeps some of the degenerate combo decks in check that WotC has been concerned about in the past, most notably Gifts Storm.
The Death's Shadow decks helped making blue a viable color in Modern again, both directly (in case of Grixis Shadow) and indirectly (by helping UWx control decks climb back to tier 2).
Compared to some of the other established archetypes, Grixis Shadow is not overly oppressive or linear. Games involving this deck are often fun to watch (at least for me). Also, the mirror is usually a lot more interesting than games revolving around the question who assembles Tron first.
The game plan of decks built around Death's Shadow can be attacked from multiple angles, unlike decks like Dredge that force many decks to dedicate one third of the sideboard to very specific cards.
WotC pointed out the issue of growing "ban fatigue" themselves.
Modern was just made a pro tour format again, scheduled for February 2018. Standard will completely reshape in September 2017 when 2 blocks leave the format. I doubt that WotC is also going to stir up Modern with a series of bans.
If they ban one card, it will likely be Death's Shadow. A Street Wraith ban might not be enough if the Death's Shadow decks really overtake the format. Currently, the metagame share of Grixis Shadow seems to go down.
There is a SCG going on, is the deck dominant on this tournament as well?
You can check out the twitch stream by yourself. It's a team event, so many decks are already known from what is displayed in the stream. It doesn't look as if many players went with the deck, so the answer is probably "no".
Do you guys think a piece of this deck will get a ban? Either street wraith or death's shadow?
There is a SCG going on, is the deck dominant on this tournament as well?
Warning for Bank talk outside of the State of the Meta Thread. Please take any and all ban dissensions there.
- Torpf
Jeez, sorry! That was like the first time I talked about a potential ban, and I wasn't suggesting anything, more talking about how the metagame has adjusted. But whatever...
Maybe some time in the future, but I don't think it will happen soon, reasons:
The metagame has adjusted to the presence of Death's Shadow decks and looks healthy and diverse.
Grixis Shadow has not put up many spectacular finishes in recent major events, despite being played by some of the best players.
The deck is not easy to learn or easy to master. I've seen flavor of the month players move on fairly quickly. Other decks, like Eldrazi Tron, require considerable less understanding of the other decks in the format.
The Grixis version of the deck keeps some of the degenerate combo decks in check that WotC has been concerned about in the past, most notably Gifts Storm.
The Death's Shadow decks helped making blue a viable color in Modern again, both directly (in case of Grixis Shadow) and indirectly (by helping UWx control decks climb back to tier 2).
Compared to some of the other established archetypes, Grixis Shadow is not overly oppressive and linear. Games involving this deck are often fun to watch (at least for me). The mirror is typically a lot more interesting than games revolving around the question who assembles Tron first.
The game plan of decks built around Death's Shadow can be attacked from multiple angles. This is a key difference to decks like Dredge that force many decks to dedicate one third of the sideboard to very specific cards.
WotC pointed out the issue of growing "ban fatigue" themselves.
Modern was just made a pro tour format again, scheduled for February 2018. Standard will completely reshape in September 2017 when 2 blocks leave the format. I doubt that WotC is going to stir up Modern as well with a series of bans.
If they ban one card, it will likely be Death's Shadow. A Street Wraith ban might not be enough if the Death's Shadow decks really overtake the format. Currently, the metagame share of Grixis Shadow seems to go down.
There is a SCG going on, is the deck dominant on this tournament as well?
You can check out the twitch stream by yourself. It's a team event, so many decks are already known from what is displayed in the stream. It doesn't look as if many players went with the deck, so the answer is probably "no".
Do you guys think a piece of this deck will get a ban? Either street wraith or death's shadow?
There is a SCG going on, is the deck dominant on this tournament as well?
Warning for Bank talk outside of the State of the Meta Thread. Please take any and all ban dissensions there.
- Torpf
I agree, I've been wathcing some of the streams and grixis death shadow doesn't seem to be present as much.
Probably a metagame adjust and people are moving towards some other decks. Still a very powerful deck thought.
I was thinking about getting the street wraith and death shadow playset but am afraid of a ban and loosing all the money invested.
I'm currently on eldrazi tron (haven't got chalices yet) and am pretty happy thought.
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Yeah, that's been my position since it's been spoiled. Interesting in a different Death's Shadow shell perhaps, but not this one.
The thing is, vs the decks where you want P&K on turn 4, you typically side out LotV: Affinity, Elves, etc. In the mirror and vs other grindy matchups, it's not so important to have P&K right on turn 4. You're playing a long game, and you'll have time to hit those land drops. Yes P&K would be better if you could hit drop it on turn 4 consistently, but it's still very good.
Dismember>Terminate is a concession to YP, but I still hate the card..
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
4 Serum Vision
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Thought Scour
4 Death's Shadow
4 Fatal Push
4 Thoughtseize
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Dismember
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Street Wraith
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Claim/Fame
2 Nihil Spellbomb
Have you been testing it ? Could you go more in depths on your testing ? I'm really curious about this new build with YP! Thanks!
edit: quoting.
Here's my list for reference:
1x Blood Crypt
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Sorcery (14)
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Thoughtseize
4x Death's Shadow
1x Gurmag Angler
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Street Wraith
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3x Young Pyromancer
Instant (11)
1x Dismember
4x Fatal Push
1x Kolaghan's Command
2x Stubborn Denial
3x Thought Scour
3x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Collective Brutality
1x Dreadbore
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Kozilek's Return
3x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pyroclasm
2x Stubborn Denial
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
Your list is basically Ari Lax's list with YP, I tried couple weeks shaving lands and a K. Command. In a competitive meta, where you have tons of Chalices of the Void and LD is so weak... I even tried 18 lands and 2 Sleight... when I got back to the stock 19 lands, never felt soo good. With YP probably we should go down to 18 lands and 2 sleight of hands ? But I really fell that we can't cut K. Command in a serious meta.
Still Snap synergizes with YP and is a beast on the grindy fiesta. Same as I said above, i tried the other build that shaves a snap, 4 is a must he is so good right now.
Just a theorycrafting list, opinions?
2x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
1x Sleight of Hands
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
4x Thoughtseize
Creature (18)
4x Death's Shadow
1x Gurmag Angler
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Street Wraith
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3x Young Pyromancer
1x Dismember
4x Fatal Push
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Stubborn Denial
4x Thought Scour
YP is at its best when you can untap and cast a bunch of one mana spells, making a bunch of tokens. Snapcaster does flash back a spell, but it's 3+ mana for 1 spell. I'm not sure that <4 snapcasters is correct in a YP build, but that's definitely where I would go first when testing it. Push the idea to it's limit to really get a feel for how strong it is.
Make sense, next week I will try it out
The whole point in playing a version like this deck is to hedge against certain things. Land destruction not being one of them. This version aims to minimalize against grave hate as much as possible and have an edge against chalice. More decks right now are running grave hate than land destruction because the threat of Dredge and Living End is very real. LD also isn't that great against Eldrazi Tron opposed to basic tron which has fallen out of favor.
I did want to fit some number of Lightning Bolts into the deck but ultimately I wasn't able to cut enough slots for them. I refuse to run bolt in this deck unless I have at least 2.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
I agree with you, however, that one good reason for running Young Pyromancer is reducing the dependency on the graveyard. The second good reason is IMHO the recent rise in popularity of LotV.
http://www.cubetutor.com/cubeblog/63569
When Gitaxian Probe gets unbanned or a card very similar to it comes out (like a Wraith but a Sorcery). Or if they ever decide to unban preordain. Wizards pls just once.
The deck still has answers to Chalice in the 8 main deck disruption spells, and can potentially go up to more. 1 vs. 2 Kommands doesn't make a whole ton of a difference, especially when severely upping the count on cantrips in the maindeck. Ballista and All is Dust are a problem, but All is Dust was always a problem, you just had to race it or had to have timely disruption. Ballista is a little more annoying but at least they are forced to fire it off earlier than they would want to gun down YP and his buddies. I didn't actually know that ETron deck were putting back Wail in the main, IIRC they ran dismembers because it also dealt with delve creatures.
The card certainly isn't broken or anything, it's just another option you can take if your meta is hostile towards normal Grixis Shadow decks and you don't happen to have any other decks available. Feel free to tweak some numbers here and there if you want to test it out, I do think that some bolts or more dismembers could be in the main but I didn't want to have to eat into more Scours than I needed to. The side is still all over the place, Izzet Staticaster could probably be in place of a field wipe, there's a chance some Surgicals should be in there because of YP synergy and I think Painful Truths would be a great addition in a YP build of the deck.
Most of you are probably doing fine with the stock 19 land version so if it ain't broke no need to fix it.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
Am currently working on this
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Thought Scour
4 Death's Shadow
4 Fatal Push
1 Inquisition ofn Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Dismember
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Street Wraith
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
2 Collective Brutality
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Claim/Fame
There is a SCG going on, is the deck dominant on this tournament as well?
Warning for Bank talk outside of the State of the Meta Thread. Please take any and all ban dissensions there.
- Torpf
Jeez, sorry! That was like the first time I talked about a potential ban, and I wasn't suggesting anything, more talking about how the metagame has adjusted. But whatever...
I agree, I've been wathcing some of the streams and grixis death shadow doesn't seem to be present as much.
Probably a metagame adjust and people are moving towards some other decks. Still a very powerful deck thought.
I was thinking about getting the street wraith and death shadow playset but am afraid of a ban and loosing all the money invested.
I'm currently on eldrazi tron (haven't got chalices yet) and am pretty happy thought.