Long story short on lands: Because our cantrips are pretty god-awful. Serum Visions only draws you a random card and sets up for your NEXT draws, which often get ruined by fetches, Thought Scour can inadvertently put lands into your GY (hopefully not important fetchable targets), Street Wraith ALWAYS costs you life (unlike Probe, which could be cast for mana if low on life), and Sleight of Hand only digs 2 deep, which HAS to bottom one (imagine needing land and Sleighting into Land and EXACTLY THE CARD YOU NEED, you need both, only get one, and the other goes to the bottom).
Plus, factor in stuff like people blowing up lands, Spreading Seas, or just facilitating life loss and Revolt with fetches and you definitely want to draw those lands.
Why on earth are we playing 19 lands? Have you guys been watching the pros, streamers playing grixis? The mana flood in this deck is real. I also see mana flooding occur in my real life games against the deck, and playing it and against on mtgo
Why aren't we trimming this to 18 land?
Legacy delver plays 18, yes, yes, I know, different format, brainstorm, etc. But this deck is also running 12 cantrips, a bunch of 1 mana cards, etc; but the deck is remarkably the closest thing to a legacy deck we've ever seen in modern, I think.
I've been finding 18 lands WITHOUT sleight of hands completely fine, I used that slot to add my 3rd stubborn denial with 1 bolt in the main. As long as you open up with 1 blue source and a visions, or 1 land and cantrips, the deck seriously feels good to go.
I was watching some guy play Esper Shadow with 18 lands, and while he didn't perform well, it had nothing to do with his land, it actually had to do with 2 opponents in a row literally topdecking blood moons when he stripped it out of their hands the turn before, another was a turn 2 blood moon game 1. He was absolutely fine with mana using 18 lands.
I don't think 18 lands has been greedy, the deck operates extremely well on 3 lands, and 4 is only a thing when you need to start terminating with snapcaster flashbacks.
If you have mtgo I really think you guys should test a bunch of games with 18 lands, the mana screw has been far and few for me, the only reason I don't want to go to 17 is because I don't want to risk bad opening hands with less shock lands to trigger Shadow/push.
Long story short on lands: Because our cantrips are pretty god-awful. Serum Visions only draws you a random card and sets up for your NEXT draws, which often get ruined by fetches, Thought Scour can inadvertently put lands into your GY (hopefully not important fetchable targets), Street Wraith ALWAYS costs you life (unlike Probe, which could be cast for mana if low on life), and Sleight of Hand only digs 2 deep, which HAS to bottom one (imagine needing land and Sleighting into Land and EXACTLY THE CARD YOU NEED, you need both, only get one, and the other goes to the bottom).
Plus, factor in stuff like people blowing up lands, Spreading Seas, or just facilitating life loss and Revolt with fetches and you definitely want to draw those lands.
To add to that, we play Snapcaster Mage and Kolaghan's Command. In the grindier matchups, we do need to hit our land drops so we can maximize these cards.
I really haven't been running into these issues you guys are proposing
If I'm in danger of not drawing my second land I'll always serum first, don't often get stuck on 1 land between the cantrips
The effects are probably exaggerated, but I've been playing these cantrips long enough to be on the bad side of them many, many, many times. It doesn't happen often, but it happens enough to notice and cause big tempo losses. Specifically for fetches/Visions, if you Serum first, draw into a fetchland and top/top your scry. You then have to decide if playing your second spell (perhaps a Tasigur or discard or counter) is more important than keeping your scrys. Playing Visions in a fetch-heavy deck removes a lot of what makes the card even remotely playable. This scenario didn't come up as much in Delver (which only ran about 8 fetches), but seems to happen all the time in Shadow, running 12 fetches. It also introduces awkward interactions like having second fetch in hand alongside Serum. You basically have to fetch blind and THEN draw/scry, unless you want to shuffle away your scrys. Often it's best to go Grave, Grave, Crypt, but sometimes you'll need red mana early. It all depends on what you draw/scry.
Also, while there's some decent redundancy in the shocklands, you will mill one of your basic lands with Scour a non-zero amount of time. It doesn't come up often, but seems to happen when you need to fetch exactly Swamp or Island to both cast a spell and not kill yourself, but you see it sitting in your graveyard from a previous Scour.
Point is, relying too heavily on our weak cantrips in order to make land drops makes you more susceptible to their drawbacks.
I am almost certain 19 lands are too many. I am on 18 and 2 sleights and its been fantastic for me.
I've been hitting land drops completely fine with 18 lands no SOH, all while shoving 1x bolt and the 3rd stub. What did you cut to for 2?
Again, you guys are talking about hitting your land drops but I'm seeing flooding on a daily basis. Once you reach 2 lands you're golden on just letting the game play out naturally
18 lands is fine from my experience as long as the opponent is not running any land destruction. If they are (D'n'T, Living End, Ponza, various GBx decks after boarding, etc.), 19 lands are certainly not too much. Any extra fetch land also helps playing around Blood Moon. You can often take out the 19th land after boarding if you are sure that your manabase is not going to be attacked. But I'd rather get occasionally flooded than miss a land drop.
18 lands is fine from my experience as long as the opponent is not running any land destruction. If they are (D'n'T, Living End, Ponza, various GBx decks after boarding, etc.), 19 lands are certainly not too much. Any extra fetch land also helps playing around Blood Moon. You can often take out the 19th land after boarding if you are sure that your manabase is not going to be attacked. But I'd rather get occasionally flooded than miss a land drop.
Good gbx players don't slot in fulminators for shadow decks
Living end, I think you want to finish things before they get to that point
DnT can totally land lock you. That matchup is a serious uphill fight
Ponza isn't really eating large meta shares
I do feel the 18 land base count if fairly safe. Reading jessups article he said one of the slots he wanted to play with was a land, doesn't look like he cut it though
Hi guys, just have a question. Against eldrazi such as bant eldrazi and eldrazi tron. Will siding out street wraith be a smart decision? I know its been great playing a 56 deck would be good of fast digging an answer for their big guy. But we are put our life in risk as their can be very fast in their mana ramp. Whats the thought about this?
Good gbx players don't slot in fulminators for shadow decks
I have recently developed a habit of disliking sentences that start with "good <insert random deck> players don't <insert tactic>". It always comes down to what their strategy against Grixis Shadow is. If they pack enough disruption to force us into a grindy game, attacking our manabase is a legit strategy.
Living end, I think you want to finish things before they get to that point
Living End often has considerable numbers of Fulminator Mage and Simian Spirit Guide maindeck. I don't see how we can reliably "finish things" before having to deal with this situation. In game 2 and 3, they are highly interested in taking us off our second blue mana source for some nifty Ricochet Trap action.
DnT can totally land lock you. That matchup is a serious uphill fight
It's not THAT bad actually, but you can make the matchup worse by cutting that 19th land if you like to lose against the one deck in the format that has recently gained popularity.
Ponza isn't really eating large meta shares
I mostly mentioned it because it punishes flimsy manabases badly. I have seen quite a few Ponza decks on MTGO lately.
I mentioned just a few decks. There was an "etc." in my list for a reason. In a metagame where big mana decks thrive, a lot of deck archtypes cannot affort to ignore lands. Sure, you can dodge all those matchups and hope that the "good players" will never come up with the idea of attacking our deck's already vulnerable manabase.
I doubt that Grixis is the best DS shell. Before the Probe (& Troll) ban, the 4 color aggro/combo build seemed like the best build. After the ban the world found out that the Jund and Jund + white builds were better all along. Then Michael Majors showed us that Grixis was even better than Jund. But how much experimentation has there really been since the format found out about the power of Shadow + Thoughtseize + Street Wraith + Fetches + Shocks? I don't mean by random players like you and me, I mean by the best players and deckbuilders in the world. Not that much! Modern isn't a PT format, and outside of a handful of GPs, e.g. GP Vegas, there hasn't been a ton of incentive for these players to put in the effort. Esper, in particular, is a color combination that I think has been fairly underexplored by those top players, but there's also been relatively little exploration of radically different shells other than the Goyf shell we see in Jund and Sultai and the Scour + delve shell we see in Grixis and Esper. The world only recently found out about the 4 Sleight of hand build in Grixis, and there's still no concensus about whether 0, 4, or some other number of Sleights is the way to go! And this is a question in the Esper shell too!
The core Shadow shell is a single color and doesn't take up too much deckbuilding space or put much of a constraint on deckbuilding. If anything, it eases constraints because the life loss associated with a fetch+shock manabasse is now a benefit. If you're trying to win a tournament tomorrow, by all means, sleeve up a tweaked and tuned version of Grixis Shadow teched out for all the hate. Or maybe Esper Shadow if you basically like Grixis but want Path and a different suite of SB cards or if you're feeling like taking a risk on something a little less proven. But there's still a ton of room to experiment with and explore this basic shell. The holy grail, if you can find it - if it exists - is a Shadow shell that doesn't rely on the graveyard so heavily while still providing strong threats to pair with Shadow. Then you get to dodge all of the graveyard hate and maybe even play some stronger hate yourself.
In that sense I kind of wish we still had probe back in the format that way we could try some builds with Young Pyromancer. Maybe it could work if they ever somehow manage to sneak in Cabal Therapy into modern for us. The deck is probably 1-2 good cards away from being able to play pyromancer. Just an idea, others are free to try out other threats in its place to help not get reamed by grave hate. A Pyromancer build could end up being bettered by more Sleight of Hands in its wake as well, which sounds sweet.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
Hi!
I just sleeved up this deck and played some games with it this friday. It felt super sweet and very stable! A great deck with many options!
Now, I was reading through the forums and saw discussions about Serum Visions.
I must agree that it gives some very awkward moments. Is Sleight of Hand a better cantrip for this deck? It digs one less but you get to choose which card to pick. Is that an advantage that outweigh Serum Visions disadvantage with this deck?
Get me on this, Serum Visions is the best (non-banned) cantrip in modern IMO, but not necessarily in every deck. Can GDS be one of these?
Anyway, I had a few questions to you guys who knows the deck. Hos good/bad is Faithless Looting? I know it is a card loss and bad top deck, but you dig 2 cards and fills your graveyard with the two worst cards.
Second question is Plunge Into Darkness. It is a instant two mana cantrip that digs deep and is a controlled life loss. Playable?
I've thought a bit about what a Young Pyromancer build would look like. Also an Abbot of Keral Keep build. But in both cases, I don't think there's quite enough synergy to be had.
I've thought a bit about what a Young Pyromancer build would look like. Also an Abbot of Keral Keep build. But in both cases, I don't think there's quite enough synergy to be had.
Where would you find room? Cutting shadows would be a huge mistake, as would the delvers.
May as well play a totally different deck. I think I saw a UR deck on reddit using pyromancer, take a look there if you're looking to play the more traditional delver decks, I guess?
Good gbx players don't slot in fulminators for shadow decks
I have recently developed a habit of disliking sentences that start with "good <insert random deck> players don't <insert tactic>". It always comes down to what their strategy against Grixis Shadow is. If they pack enough disruption to force us into a grindy game, attacking our manabase is a legit strategy.
Living end, I think you want to finish things before they get to that point
Living End often has considerable numbers of Fulminator Mage and Simian Spirit Guide maindeck. I don't see how we can reliably "finish things" before having to deal with this situation. In game 2 and 3, they are highly interested in taking us off our second blue mana source for some nifty Ricochet Trap action.
DnT can totally land lock you. That matchup is a serious uphill fight
It's not THAT bad actually, but you can make the matchup worse by cutting that 19th land if you like to lose against the one deck in the format that has recently gained popularity.
Ponza isn't really eating large meta shares
I mostly mentioned it because it punishes flimsy manabases badly. I have seen quite a few Ponza decks on MTGO lately.
I mentioned just a few decks. There was an "etc." in my list for a reason. In a metagame where big mana decks thrive, a lot of deck archtypes cannot affort to ignore lands. Sure, you can dodge all those matchups and hope that the "good players" will never come up with the idea of attacking our deck's already vulnerable manabase.
Your points aren't bad, but I'm going to push back on you against the BGx thing---Jund and Junk will NOT go the land destruction route, not the good ones. There isn't enough room to be cutting things for that, and a fulminator looks incredibly bad to topdeck in a long game
They can't cut discard because they need to snatch away snapcasters
They're bringing in the grindy cards, finks, graveyard hate, etc---there isn't room to cut for that route.
I've thought a bit about what a Young Pyromancer build would look like. Also an Abbot of Keral Keep build. But in both cases, I don't think there's quite enough synergy to be had.
Where would you find room? Cutting shadows would be a huge mistake, as would the delvers.
May as well play a totally different deck. I think I saw a UR deck on reddit using pyromancer, take a look there if you're looking to play the more traditional delver decks, I guess?
I've been fiddling with some of the slots and have been doing some research on Modern/Legacy decks that ran YP in the past. It turns out that every Grixis variant I came across (with the exception of this: http://www.gamekeeper.ca/decklist-du-top-16-modern-8k-1er-juillet-2017/) but that's actually a new one not an old build had 2-3 YP in them. So I'm currently going to try 2 Young Pyromancer in the deck. I believe from my list I cut a Dismember and a Gurmag Angler to add them in. The list still has 2 Kommands and can go up to 3 hard removal spells post board so I'm content on cutting those. I cut the Angler to help the deck be slightly less graveyard reliant like what Spooly suggested. Hopefully we find the right balance that ends up working but this is version 1.
Let's keep innovating boys.
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Your points aren't bad, but I'm going to push back on you against the BGx thing---Jund and Junk will NOT go the land destruction route, not the good ones. There isn't enough room to be cutting things for that, and a fulminator looks incredibly bad to topdeck in a long game
They can't cut discard because they need to snatch away snapcasters
They're bringing in the grindy cards, finks, graveyard hate, etc---there isn't room to cut for that route.
From my experience, if they are running Traverse the Ulvenwald, Fulminator Mage is usually coming in. Fulminator Mage is also not a terrrible topdeck in the long game. It can chump a Death's Shadow or delve fatty and destroy a land. Since the typical Grixis Shadow list only runs 7 non-fetch lands (some of the Sleight of Hand lists even run only 6), destroying a few of those can lock the Grixis Shadow deck out of the Snapcaster + Kommand engine, which is exactly what the GBx decks want to achieve. The first Fulminator Mage is usually not much of a problem, but multiple Fulminator Mages often are.
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Plus, factor in stuff like people blowing up lands, Spreading Seas, or just facilitating life loss and Revolt with fetches and you definitely want to draw those lands.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
To add to that, we play Snapcaster Mage and Kolaghan's Command. In the grindier matchups, we do need to hit our land drops so we can maximize these cards.
If I'm in danger of not drawing my second land I'll always serum first, don't often get stuck on 1 land between the cantrips
The effects are probably exaggerated, but I've been playing these cantrips long enough to be on the bad side of them many, many, many times. It doesn't happen often, but it happens enough to notice and cause big tempo losses. Specifically for fetches/Visions, if you Serum first, draw into a fetchland and top/top your scry. You then have to decide if playing your second spell (perhaps a Tasigur or discard or counter) is more important than keeping your scrys. Playing Visions in a fetch-heavy deck removes a lot of what makes the card even remotely playable. This scenario didn't come up as much in Delver (which only ran about 8 fetches), but seems to happen all the time in Shadow, running 12 fetches. It also introduces awkward interactions like having second fetch in hand alongside Serum. You basically have to fetch blind and THEN draw/scry, unless you want to shuffle away your scrys. Often it's best to go Grave, Grave, Crypt, but sometimes you'll need red mana early. It all depends on what you draw/scry.
Also, while there's some decent redundancy in the shocklands, you will mill one of your basic lands with Scour a non-zero amount of time. It doesn't come up often, but seems to happen when you need to fetch exactly Swamp or Island to both cast a spell and not kill yourself, but you see it sitting in your graveyard from a previous Scour.
Point is, relying too heavily on our weak cantrips in order to make land drops makes you more susceptible to their drawbacks.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I've been hitting land drops completely fine with 18 lands no SOH, all while shoving 1x bolt and the 3rd stub. What did you cut to for 2?
Again, you guys are talking about hitting your land drops but I'm seeing flooding on a daily basis. Once you reach 2 lands you're golden on just letting the game play out naturally
Good gbx players don't slot in fulminators for shadow decks
Living end, I think you want to finish things before they get to that point
DnT can totally land lock you. That matchup is a serious uphill fight
Ponza isn't really eating large meta shares
I do feel the 18 land base count if fairly safe. Reading jessups article he said one of the slots he wanted to play with was a land, doesn't look like he cut it though
I'll keep testing, but it's been smooth thus far
I mentioned just a few decks. There was an "etc." in my list for a reason. In a metagame where big mana decks thrive, a lot of deck archtypes cannot affort to ignore lands. Sure, you can dodge all those matchups and hope that the "good players" will never come up with the idea of attacking our deck's already vulnerable manabase.
In that sense I kind of wish we still had probe back in the format that way we could try some builds with Young Pyromancer. Maybe it could work if they ever somehow manage to sneak in Cabal Therapy into modern for us. The deck is probably 1-2 good cards away from being able to play pyromancer. Just an idea, others are free to try out other threats in its place to help not get reamed by grave hate. A Pyromancer build could end up being bettered by more Sleight of Hands in its wake as well, which sounds sweet.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
I just sleeved up this deck and played some games with it this friday. It felt super sweet and very stable! A great deck with many options!
Now, I was reading through the forums and saw discussions about Serum Visions.
I must agree that it gives some very awkward moments. Is Sleight of Hand a better cantrip for this deck? It digs one less but you get to choose which card to pick. Is that an advantage that outweigh Serum Visions disadvantage with this deck?
Get me on this, Serum Visions is the best (non-banned) cantrip in modern IMO, but not necessarily in every deck. Can GDS be one of these?
Anyway, I had a few questions to you guys who knows the deck. Hos good/bad is Faithless Looting? I know it is a card loss and bad top deck, but you dig 2 cards and fills your graveyard with the two worst cards.
Second question is Plunge Into Darkness. It is a instant two mana cantrip that digs deep and is a controlled life loss. Playable?
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Where would you find room? Cutting shadows would be a huge mistake, as would the delvers.
May as well play a totally different deck. I think I saw a UR deck on reddit using pyromancer, take a look there if you're looking to play the more traditional delver decks, I guess?
Your points aren't bad, but I'm going to push back on you against the BGx thing---Jund and Junk will NOT go the land destruction route, not the good ones. There isn't enough room to be cutting things for that, and a fulminator looks incredibly bad to topdeck in a long game
They can't cut discard because they need to snatch away snapcasters
They're bringing in the grindy cards, finks, graveyard hate, etc---there isn't room to cut for that route.
Snapcaster would be the cut.
Let's keep innovating boys.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link