I still MB two TBR (no terminate MB) and was going to cut one to try pulse of the forge. Has anyone tried it yet?
I thought it could be feasible even with its high cmc since it's almost a guarantee it'll come back to your hand and can target myself for shadow in a pinch(condemn)
I have a Tomb Stalker coming in the mail to try out. I feel it won't be nearly as explosive as Tasigur or Angler, and very unlikely to come down before turn 3 or 4, but I'm giving it a go. Going to straight swap for an Angler (2 Tas, 1 Ang, 1 Tomb).
Quick question: What does Surgical Extraction accomplish in our deck besides the Dredge matchup? Is it really that good against combo? I guess against Valakut it could be good, but Nauseam is already bringing Leyline which invalidates Discard spells which are the realiable way of putting pieces into their GY.
Lots of people are running Dismember in addition to Terminates nowadays, but I saw Gerry T going full Dismembers. The card is great, variable life loss and kills most creatures in the format and doesnt require red. However, the card does NOT hit Primetime, Wurmcoil or huge Goyfs/DS. Dismember on the other hand does actually kill Gideon of the Trials from UW which is annoying, but definitely not a huge factor. Anyone else have any thoughts towards Dismember that I'm missing because even though the life loss and colour freedom is convenient I cant help but notice these glaring weaknesses
So, I'm wondering if people still think Grixis is the best colour combination for the deck. With people shaving down on the number of red spells, it seems like perhaps Esper might be better. Looking at the SCG Invitational, Fournier played two Terminates and a Rise//Fall, while Anderson played two Termintes, two Kolaghan's Commands, and a Bolt. While I think Kolaghan's Command is great, I'm not convinced it is solely a reason to play red over another colour. A card like Izzet Staticaster or Kozilek's return out of the board doesn't seem enough better than what white would offer in cards like Stony Silence or whatever cards white has (because they generally have the best sideboard cards).
White offers you: Path, Orzhov Charm, Lingering Souls. Most importantly, I think Path is really good in the meta right now because people are moving to decks with bigger creatures. Eldrazi Tron and Grixis Death's Shadow are really popular, both decks where Fatal Push and Bolt are bad. Sure, Grixis has Terminate, but I think any benefit of no drawback is mitigated by the one mana difference, which is often relevant for a deck like ours that operates on very few lands. Path also offers an answer to the dreaded Mirran Crusader. Orzhov Charm, to me, seems like a better card than Rise//Fall, and Lingering Souls is similarly just a high value card.
So, I'm wondering if people still think Grixis is the best colour combination for the deck. With people shaving down on the number of red spells, it seems like perhaps Esper might be better. Looking at the SCG Invitational, Fournier played two Terminates and a Rise//Fall, while Anderson played two Termintes, two Kolaghan's Commands, and a Bolt. While I think Kolaghan's Command is great, I'm not convinced it is solely a reason to play red over another colour. A card like Izzet Staticaster or Kozilek's return out of the board doesn't seem enough better than what white would offer in cards like Stony Silence or whatever cards white has (because they generally have the best sideboard cards).
White offers you: Path, Orzhov Charm, Lingering Souls. Most importantly, I think Path is really good in the meta right now because people are moving to decks with bigger creatures. Eldrazi Tron and Grixis Death's Shadow are really popular, both decks where Fatal Push and Bolt are bad. Sure, Grixis has Terminate, but I think any benefit of no drawback is mitigated by the one mana difference, which is often relevant for a deck like ours that operates on very few lands. Path also offers an answer to the dreaded Mirran Crusader. Orzhov Charm, to me, seems like a better card than Rise//Fall, and Lingering Souls is similarly just a high value card.
While I do believe Grixis Shadow itself is better than Esper Shadow, it could be the right call only because the meta is trying to adapt to Grixis, cards like colossus, Crusader, etc.
It could be a good call, but only from a meta perspective. I don't think you can underestimate how amazing Izzet Staicaster/Anger/K-Command are.
Completely agree. Red is at its best in tandem with Snapcaster Mage. Kommand,Bolt,etc are very good with it. Also, i would be hesitant to make any assumption about the Modern metagame until HOU is playable. Claim//Fame is going to be a staple in UB/X DS, in my humble opinion.
If you project that thought, you see that Path to Exile should become even better. I'm not sure how it will affect Grixis Shadow's matchups, but Control will not be so hard. Esper Shadow could become better after Claim....
Orzhov Charm is a trap. Most Esper Shadow list don't even run it because it is too situational. Some of the Jund Shadow decks with a White splash ran it months ago, but not anymore.
For similar reasons, I don't think that Claim // Fame is going to be a staple in Grixis Shadow. Yes, some lists will contain one or two copies of it when Hour of Devastation becomes legal. But before another deck becomes the boogeyman of the format, I doubt that there is room in the typical Grixis list for a card that does not stop any of the many attempts to hate on the deck. Unless Grixis Shadow evolves in a new direction to specifically exploit Claim // Fame, I don't see it happen.
Path to Exile is a definitely good card in Esper Shadow, but the drawback hurts the deck's capability of playing the tempo game, which is already worse without direct damage spells. The one mana casting cost also means that Chalice of the Void on 1 becomes even more backbreaking for the deck. Worse, Esper doesn't have any maindeck artifact hate that comes remotely near the power level of Kolaghan's Command. So, I don't think Esper Shadow will be in a good spot unless Eldrazi Tron falls out of favor.
It's also noteworthy that Ensnaring Bridge is good against Eldrazi Tron. A shift away from Grixis Shadow towards Esper Shadow would likely make this card too good to ignore for the Burn sideboard and various other decks.
I doubt that Grixis is the best DS shell. Before the Probe (& Troll) ban, the 4 color aggro/combo build seemed like the best build. After the ban the world found out that the Jund and Jund + white builds were better all along. Then Michael Majors showed us that Grixis was even better than Jund. But how much experimentation has there really been since the format found out about the power of Shadow + Thoughtseize + Street Wraith + Fetches + Shocks? I don't mean by random players like you and me, I mean by the best players and deckbuilders in the world. Not that much! Modern isn't a PT format, and outside of a handful of GPs, e.g. GP Vegas, there hasn't been a ton of incentive for these players to put in the effort. Esper, in particular, is a color combination that I think has been fairly underexplored by those top players, but there's also been relatively little exploration of radically different shells other than the Goyf shell we see in Jund and Sultai and the Scour + delve shell we see in Grixis and Esper. The world only recently found out about the 4 Sleight of hand build in Grixis, and there's still no concensus about whether 0, 4, or some other number of Sleights is the way to go! And this is a question in the Esper shell too!
The core Shadow shell is a single color and doesn't take up too much deckbuilding space or put much of a constraint on deckbuilding. If anything, it eases constraints because the life loss associated with a fetch+shock manabasse is now a benefit. If you're trying to win a tournament tomorrow, by all means, sleeve up a tweaked and tuned version of Grixis Shadow teched out for all the hate. Or maybe Esper Shadow if you basically like Grixis but want Path and a different suite of SB cards or if you're feeling like taking a risk on something a little less proven. But there's still a ton of room to experiment with and explore this basic shell. The holy grail, if you can find it - if it exists - is a Shadow shell that doesn't rely on the graveyard so heavily while still providing strong threats to pair with Shadow. Then you get to dodge all of the graveyard hate and maybe even play some stronger hate yourself.
Grixis shadow feels way better than jund shadow. Sure, Goyf can become 8/9, but with a lot of pushes in the meta, tasigur and angler feels way better and can still be playable vs grave hate.
While kolaghan is good in jund, in grixis with snap it is where it shines.
There is the debate serum(card quality) v Vs sleigh of hand (fast quality), but did we ever consider bauble like jund? 0 mana cost, can be cast during the first turn with seize and wraith filters it.
The downside is card avaliability, if you are digging for a sorcery to win the game bauble may screw you over.
I have a Tomb Stalker coming in the mail to try out. I feel it won't be nearly as explosive as Tasigur or Angler, and very unlikely to come down before turn 3 or 4, but I'm giving it a go. Going to straight swap for an Angler (2 Tas, 1 Ang, 1 Tomb).
im thinking its more useful in the lategame to block flickerwisps & stuff anyways? but i think the double black could hurt...
Tried it out briefly and not pleased with it much at all. It was stuck in my hand several times I could have played an Angler, or another 1 drop was stuck in my hand with 2 lands, so I could either cast it or tap out for the Stalker without TS/IOKing. Maybe I'm just trying to be too aggressive casting it, but each of the games I played with it, I had it in my hand early and I just wished it was an Angler. I definitely feel like this deck needs SOMETHING to deal with ground blockers, but Battle Rage feels awful, and I really don't want to have to splash a fourth color. Maybe Bone Picker isn't as terrible as we all think? I don't know. I wish Wraith was a spell instead of a creature so we could just jam Delver and Shadow together and call it a day.
As for alternative builds, I tried Esper for a while, but it REALLY misses K Command. That card is essential to a long grindy game and there are few better recursion options that double as versatile utility spells. I could definitely see running a black-based Shadow list with Geist of Saint Traft though. But losing red hurts a lot without access to direct damage and spells like K Command.
Grixis shadow feels way better than jund shadow. Sure, Goyf can become 8/9, but with a lot of pushes in the meta, tasigur and angler feels way better and can still be playable vs grave hate.
While kolaghan is good in jund, in grixis with snap it is where it shines.
There is the debate serum(card quality) v Vs sleigh of hand (fast quality), but did we ever consider bauble like jund? 0 mana cost, can be cast during the first turn with seize and wraith filters it.
The downside is card avaliability, if you are digging for a sorcery to win the game bauble may screw you over.
Bauble is necessary in Jund to hit delirium for Traverse, plus it makes Goyf big. Grixis (and Esper) there are none of these benefits. You get a bit faster delve creatures and occasionally can build your own scry with a fetch or a street wraith, but these are relatively minor benefits. And the cost of it being a slow-trip is high.
Has anyone tried noxious revival?
I have one MB for testing and I'm very happy with it. Haven't learned all the tricks but being able to put a card back vs surgical is fun. Returning snappy or tas/angler is good. Great against GQ when you need that mana. Makes dropping your life total easier/more reliable and faster.
On the bauble topic, I ran a full playset and expensive as they are, visions/sleight is better if draw is important, currently trying 3/2 split of sv&soh.
However the information it provides can be relevant. Thoughtseize and bauble same turn gives you an edge, you see what they have and what they are going to get so you can plan better.
While other primers have matchup/SB guides, this thread does not.
Is anyone working on the matchup/SB cheat sheet? While I see a lot of "temur battle rage isn't so good", have you ever tried 1 or 2 Slip Through Space?
Pro: One blue mana, easier to be reused with snap. Unblockable: no interaction with first strike/death touch, it is a cantrip and can be, in desperation, used on your opponents creatures for the draw.
Cons: Sorcery. Doesn't double your damage output (con for tokens, indifferent for midrange).
Why on earth are we playing 19 lands? Have you guys been watching the pros, streamers playing grixis? The mana flood in this deck is real. I also see mana flooding occur in my real life games against the deck, and playing it and against on mtgo
Why aren't we trimming this to 18 land?
Legacy delver plays 18, yes, yes, I know, different format, brainstorm, etc. But this deck is also running 12 cantrips, a bunch of 1 mana cards, etc; but the deck is remarkably the closest thing to a legacy deck we've ever seen in modern, I think.
I've been finding 18 lands WITHOUT sleight of hands completely fine, I used that slot to add my 3rd stubborn denial with 1 bolt in the main. As long as you open up with 1 blue source and a visions, or 1 land and cantrips, the deck seriously feels good to go.
I was watching some guy play Esper Shadow with 18 lands, and while he didn't perform well, it had nothing to do with his land, it actually had to do with 2 opponents in a row literally topdecking blood moons when he stripped it out of their hands the turn before, another was a turn 2 blood moon game 1. He was absolutely fine with mana using 18 lands.
I don't think 18 lands has been greedy, the deck operates extremely well on 3 lands, and 4 is only a thing when you need to start terminating with snapcaster flashbacks.
If you have mtgo I really think you guys should test a bunch of games with 18 lands, the mana screw has been far and few for me, the only reason I don't want to go to 17 is because I don't want to risk bad opening hands with less shock lands to trigger Shadow/push.
If Valakut is more predominant, I wonder if 3x stubborn denials are more necessary than the 1x bolt
Could anyone explain Chameleon Colosus and his X/X thing works?
He's a 4/4, when he activates his ability, does that mean he's an 8/8?
I think 3 Denial is already correct because decks are adapting to Delve threats and maindecking Relics.
And yes, Colossus is 8/8 with the first activation, 16/16 with the second.
I thought it could be feasible even with its high cmc since it's almost a guarantee it'll come back to your hand and can target myself for shadow in a pinch(condemn)
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Surgical is really better when you're expecting your meta to be more combo heavy, a lot of players are using Nihil spellbombs and cages instead
White offers you: Path, Orzhov Charm, Lingering Souls. Most importantly, I think Path is really good in the meta right now because people are moving to decks with bigger creatures. Eldrazi Tron and Grixis Death's Shadow are really popular, both decks where Fatal Push and Bolt are bad. Sure, Grixis has Terminate, but I think any benefit of no drawback is mitigated by the one mana difference, which is often relevant for a deck like ours that operates on very few lands. Path also offers an answer to the dreaded Mirran Crusader. Orzhov Charm, to me, seems like a better card than Rise//Fall, and Lingering Souls is similarly just a high value card.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
While I do believe Grixis Shadow itself is better than Esper Shadow, it could be the right call only because the meta is trying to adapt to Grixis, cards like colossus, Crusader, etc.
It could be a good call, but only from a meta perspective. I don't think you can underestimate how amazing Izzet Staicaster/Anger/K-Command are.
If you project that thought, you see that Path to Exile should become even better. I'm not sure how it will affect Grixis Shadow's matchups, but Control will not be so hard. Esper Shadow could become better after Claim....
For similar reasons, I don't think that Claim // Fame is going to be a staple in Grixis Shadow. Yes, some lists will contain one or two copies of it when Hour of Devastation becomes legal. But before another deck becomes the boogeyman of the format, I doubt that there is room in the typical Grixis list for a card that does not stop any of the many attempts to hate on the deck. Unless Grixis Shadow evolves in a new direction to specifically exploit Claim // Fame, I don't see it happen.
Path to Exile is a definitely good card in Esper Shadow, but the drawback hurts the deck's capability of playing the tempo game, which is already worse without direct damage spells. The one mana casting cost also means that Chalice of the Void on 1 becomes even more backbreaking for the deck. Worse, Esper doesn't have any maindeck artifact hate that comes remotely near the power level of Kolaghan's Command. So, I don't think Esper Shadow will be in a good spot unless Eldrazi Tron falls out of favor.
It's also noteworthy that Ensnaring Bridge is good against Eldrazi Tron. A shift away from Grixis Shadow towards Esper Shadow would likely make this card too good to ignore for the Burn sideboard and various other decks.
The core Shadow shell is a single color and doesn't take up too much deckbuilding space or put much of a constraint on deckbuilding. If anything, it eases constraints because the life loss associated with a fetch+shock manabasse is now a benefit. If you're trying to win a tournament tomorrow, by all means, sleeve up a tweaked and tuned version of Grixis Shadow teched out for all the hate. Or maybe Esper Shadow if you basically like Grixis but want Path and a different suite of SB cards or if you're feeling like taking a risk on something a little less proven. But there's still a ton of room to experiment with and explore this basic shell. The holy grail, if you can find it - if it exists - is a Shadow shell that doesn't rely on the graveyard so heavily while still providing strong threats to pair with Shadow. Then you get to dodge all of the graveyard hate and maybe even play some stronger hate yourself.
While kolaghan is good in jund, in grixis with snap it is where it shines.
There is the debate serum(card quality) v Vs sleigh of hand (fast quality), but did we ever consider bauble like jund? 0 mana cost, can be cast during the first turn with seize and wraith filters it.
The downside is card avaliability, if you are digging for a sorcery to win the game bauble may screw you over.
Tried it out briefly and not pleased with it much at all. It was stuck in my hand several times I could have played an Angler, or another 1 drop was stuck in my hand with 2 lands, so I could either cast it or tap out for the Stalker without TS/IOKing. Maybe I'm just trying to be too aggressive casting it, but each of the games I played with it, I had it in my hand early and I just wished it was an Angler. I definitely feel like this deck needs SOMETHING to deal with ground blockers, but Battle Rage feels awful, and I really don't want to have to splash a fourth color. Maybe Bone Picker isn't as terrible as we all think? I don't know. I wish Wraith was a spell instead of a creature so we could just jam Delver and Shadow together and call it a day.
As for alternative builds, I tried Esper for a while, but it REALLY misses K Command. That card is essential to a long grindy game and there are few better recursion options that double as versatile utility spells. I could definitely see running a black-based Shadow list with Geist of Saint Traft though. But losing red hurts a lot without access to direct damage and spells like K Command.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Bauble is necessary in Jund to hit delirium for Traverse, plus it makes Goyf big. Grixis (and Esper) there are none of these benefits. You get a bit faster delve creatures and occasionally can build your own scry with a fetch or a street wraith, but these are relatively minor benefits. And the cost of it being a slow-trip is high.
I have one MB for testing and I'm very happy with it. Haven't learned all the tricks but being able to put a card back vs surgical is fun. Returning snappy or tas/angler is good. Great against GQ when you need that mana. Makes dropping your life total easier/more reliable and faster.
On the bauble topic, I ran a full playset and expensive as they are, visions/sleight is better if draw is important, currently trying 3/2 split of sv&soh.
However the information it provides can be relevant. Thoughtseize and bauble same turn gives you an edge, you see what they have and what they are going to get so you can plan better.
Is anyone working on the matchup/SB cheat sheet? While I see a lot of "temur battle rage isn't so good", have you ever tried 1 or 2 Slip Through Space?
Pro: One blue mana, easier to be reused with snap. Unblockable: no interaction with first strike/death touch, it is a cantrip and can be, in desperation, used on your opponents creatures for the draw.
Cons: Sorcery. Doesn't double your damage output (con for tokens, indifferent for midrange).
Why on earth are we playing 19 lands? Have you guys been watching the pros, streamers playing grixis? The mana flood in this deck is real. I also see mana flooding occur in my real life games against the deck, and playing it and against on mtgo
Why aren't we trimming this to 18 land?
Legacy delver plays 18, yes, yes, I know, different format, brainstorm, etc. But this deck is also running 12 cantrips, a bunch of 1 mana cards, etc; but the deck is remarkably the closest thing to a legacy deck we've ever seen in modern, I think.
I've been finding 18 lands WITHOUT sleight of hands completely fine, I used that slot to add my 3rd stubborn denial with 1 bolt in the main. As long as you open up with 1 blue source and a visions, or 1 land and cantrips, the deck seriously feels good to go.
I was watching some guy play Esper Shadow with 18 lands, and while he didn't perform well, it had nothing to do with his land, it actually had to do with 2 opponents in a row literally topdecking blood moons when he stripped it out of their hands the turn before, another was a turn 2 blood moon game 1. He was absolutely fine with mana using 18 lands.
I don't think 18 lands has been greedy, the deck operates extremely well on 3 lands, and 4 is only a thing when you need to start terminating with snapcaster flashbacks.
If you have mtgo I really think you guys should test a bunch of games with 18 lands, the mana screw has been far and few for me, the only reason I don't want to go to 17 is because I don't want to risk bad opening hands with less shock lands to trigger Shadow/push.