The concept is good but I rarely see it work consistently
Also, how does the card work
If you use both sides you pay 4 mana, correct?
What about discarding them at a random? Would I, as the player just chose two cards they're holding at random and pick it, and have them reveal if they aren't lands?
I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand regarding your second question - two cards are revealed at random, if they're nonland they're discarded.
What about discarding them at a random? Would I, as the player just chose two cards they're holding at random and pick it, and have them reveal if they aren't lands?
Pretty much, they reveal 2 cards at random and discard any of them which aren't lands.
The concept is good but I rarely see it work consistently
Also, how does the card work
If you use both sides you pay 4 mana, correct?
What about discarding them at a random? Would I, as the player just chose two cards they're holding at random and pick it, and have them reveal if they aren't lands?
You can only play one side or the other, but both sides feel pretty good in a GDS deck. We also just saw on camera a bit ago one of the nice results of the recent rules change. Previously, a split or fuse card had color identity and CMC equal to one or the other side, as long as it was in your hand and graveyard, but effects that do somthing for one can apply to the other. Fuse cards are the same, but you can cast BOTH halves together. A split card or fuse card on the stack had CMC equal to whichever (or both combined) that was actually cast. A recent exploit was Kari Zev's Expertise and Breaking // Entering. The text on Expertise says "Cast spell CMC 2 or less." In the hand, the Breaking half has CMC 2 or less, so the card can be cast for free off Expertise. Since it is a Fuse cards, when the card is cast, you can do both halves, so you get both halves of Breaking // Entering for free off Expertise.
That rule was updated a short while ago to state that Split and Fuse cards have CMC equal to the total combined of both cards at all times, no exceptions. That makes exploits more difficult and general understanding easier. However, the unforeseen consequences happened in the Lantern game where you can't take Rise // Fall with Inquisition of Kozilek because, instead of having a CMC of 2 in the hand, it has the full 4 of both halves combined.
TL;DR - Rise Fall dodges Inquisition because CMC is 4 (both halves combined). Used to be either/or/both for CMC, which allowed for exploits. Rules changed recently to fix that and clear up confusion.
I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand regarding your second question - two cards are revealed at random, if they're nonland they're discarded.
I think you read to much into that statement, I read it as the double discard and the bounce + return to hand from yard are both useful individually.
Maybe I'm wrong and the poster did think you could fuse it but I read it as both sides are useful.
I feel like the sideboard is 1 to 2 cards short for the Burn matchup. My current plan is -4 Wraith, +1 Denial, +2 Brutality, +1 LotV. I'd like to trim 1 to 2 Thoughtseize as well. Is Temur Battle Rage or another removal spell the next best general sideboard card against Burn? What other options would you consider?
To make room, I was thinking about consolidating 2 of the artifact, colorless, and graveyard hate into 1 Rakdos Charm. I'm pretty sure Charm is good vs. Eldrazi Tron and Affinity, but would you play it against the mirror? I'm thinking -1 Rejection, -1 Extraction, +1 Charm, +1 TBR/Terminate/Dreadbore.
Would 1 Extraction and 2 Spellbomb be sufficient GY hate for the mirror?
Looking at the meta, what do you guys think, 2 bolts for sure?
Anyone look at Jessups list? He's running a very standard 60, except he cut a land down to 18---what do you guys think of this? Grixis did well on camera this weekend, but did you guys notice that in nearly every game the grixis players were flooding?
If I had better cuts to make I would be playing 4 Bolts all day every day. There are too many games that I could close out with Bolt Snap Bolt, but I just never actually draw the one and only copy. I wouldn't even know what to cut to make room... the main 60 is extremely tight as is.
I feel like the sideboard is 1 to 2 cards short for the Burn matchup. My current plan is -4 Wraith, +1 Denial, +2 Brutality, +1 LotV. I'd like to trim 1 to 2 Thoughtseize as well. Is Temur Battle Rage or another removal spell the next best general sideboard card against Burn? What other options would you consider?
To make room, I was thinking about consolidating 2 of the artifact, colorless, and graveyard hate into 1 Rakdos Charm. I'm pretty sure Charm is good vs. Eldrazi Tron and Affinity, but would you play it against the mirror? I'm thinking -1 Rejection, -1 Extraction, +1 Charm, +1 TBR/Terminate/Dreadbore.
Would 1 Extraction and 2 Spellbomb be sufficient GY hate for the mirror?
Thanks for any help/advice.
I like Temur Battle Rage quite a bit against Burn, just watch out for their Paths and Deflecting Palms post-board. For something specifically anti-burn, another Collective Brutality would obviously be great, and it has broad enough applications that 3 is not unreasonable. As you mentioned though, Battle Rage, Terminate, or Dreadbore are all fine here. TBR very often represents a one-shot kill, and Terminate and Dreadbore aren't as good as Bolt or Push but they are relevant cards and their strength in other matchups does give them extra value as one of your 15 slots.
If you think that there are enough control/spell based decks, then going above the 4th Stubborn Denial and adding Countersquall or Dispel is also an option. These are quite good against burn while also having applications elsewhere.
Rakdos Charm is definitely a legitimate sideboard option. It is good against artifact decks, and is good against Dredge, Living End and other dedicated graveyard decks. Do NOT bring it in in the mirror, though, because while graveyard hate is fine it is not worth two mana and a card. You want this as a Shatter that also doubles as a hate card against decks that need their graveyard (Dredge, Living End). For the same reason, I don't like Surgical in the mirror because it costs a card but doesn't affect the board or their hand.
Graveyard hate for the mirror isn't strictly necessary, but it can be good in the right form. Spellbomb is fine because it messes with their graveyard Snapcasters and Tasigurs but doesn't cost a card, plus it cycles when you don't need it. The other option is to go for the high impact knockout blow and board 3~4 Leyline of the Void. This costs a card and has deckbuilding consequences, but is powerful enough to be worth it. (I personally don't like this plan but its something to consider, especially if you expect lots of graveyard decks.)
What about discarding them at a random? Would I, as the player just chose two cards they're holding at random and pick it, and have them reveal if they aren't lands?
The way people usually handle this for Hymn is to lay the cards face down, assign each a number, and roll a die twice.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Anyone look at Jessups list? He's running a very standard 60, except he cut a land down to 18---what do you guys think of this? Grixis did well on camera this weekend, but did you guys notice that in nearly every game the grixis players were flooding?
He went to 18 lands because he played 2 Sleight of Hands, and yeah, I do like that idea.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I'm still waiting for HOU release to see what people do with Claim//Fame. I thought it was medium since Fame costed 2R, but when a friend told me it was 1R it changed my mind, i think the card is quite bonkers in our deck(maybe Jund version uses it better? Doubt it). Before that, i really can't do serious testing.
Also, this deck is really slowing down on growing uptick. I really hope it gets hated hard and people actually start playing other strategies like BW Pox and UW Control which wreck Shadow pretty hard. Still, Grixis DS is the best deck in the format and i fully expect action from R&D and WOTC.
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EldraziTron being Tier 1 might actually be something that forces the different midrange decks into Shadow builds more than anything else. Take Abzan for example, it's a challenging matchup for us, but it basically auto-folds to ElTronzi. I'm not sure a ban hitting our deck would achieve much more than forcing players into more aggressive decks to combat Tron, while midrange and control are suffering.
Of note is that ElTronzi have been adapting to us by running Hangarback Walkers in the board, making post board games more challenging than before.
What are you guys doing against Valakut decks? I've found the matchup pretty miserable. I thought it would be okay, since they are a combo deck, but they have a ton of inevitability. I swear half the games I play they have absolutely nothing besides land in their hand, but they still win since an eventual Titan is too much damage. I feel like I gotta put a ton of pressure, but its hard when its very possible to be dying from 9-12 life. God, they even run Chameleon Colossus too now which is super annoying. I'm considering adding a Disdainful Stroke over a Ceremonious in the side, but I really do love Ceremonious. Snapping Ceremonious feels much better than Disdainful against Tron.
Anyone have any ideas? Am I just a scrub or is my mind making stupid connections since I've lost a lot to them recently.
Oh definitely. Our deck does lose despite many people beliefs. Eldrazi Tron is nowhere a good matchup, 5050 at most and this is considering the players sitting are very good players or pros.
I'm of those persons who still believe DS is very good but not oppressively good.
Chamaleon Colossus seems like a total beating. Valakut decks are proving powerful in this metagame. I think it had a few 7-1 in the MOCS.
What are you guys doing against Valakut decks? I've found the matchup pretty miserable. I thought it would be okay, since they are a combo deck, but they have a ton of inevitability. I swear half the games I play they have absolutely nothing besides land in their hand, but they still win since an eventual Titan is too much damage. I feel like I gotta put a ton of pressure, but its hard when its very possible to be dying from 9-12 life. God, they even run Chameleon Colossus too now which is super annoying. I'm considering adding a Disdainful Stroke over a Ceremonious in the side, but I really do love Ceremonious. Snapping Ceremonious feels much better than Disdainful against Tron.
Anyone have any ideas? Am I just a scrub or is my mind making stupid connections since I've lost a lot to them recently.
Valakut is a tough matchup for the typical builds, but -2 IoK, +2 Leak and 2 Disdainful Stroke in the SB is enough to turn the matchup in my experience. But usually Stroke comes at the cost of Ceremonious Rejection, And both changes will hurt your Eldrazi Tron matchup. You need the IoKs for Hangerback Walkers, and they often blank leak with Cavern or just a pile of mana.
Oh definitely. Our deck does lose despite many people beliefs. Eldrazi Tron is nowhere a good matchup, 5050 at most and this is considering the players sitting are very good players or pros.
I'm of those persons who still believe DS is very good but not oppressively good.
Chamaleon Colossus seems like a total beating. Valakut decks are proving powerful in this metagame. I think it had a few 7-1 in the MOCS.
Yeah, it did have a few placements, I don't even really know what it loses to. Chameleon is so disgusting (I had a game the other day where I misclicked and didnt take it: THE WORST), just hoping others move to jund/4c death shadow since they arent as affected by problack which means people will pack it less.
Valakut is a tough matchup for the typical builds, but -2 IoK, +2 Leak and 2 Disdainful Stroke in the SB is enough to turn the matchup in my experience. But usually Stroke comes at the cost of Ceremonious Rejection, And both changes will hurt your Eldrazi Tron matchup. You need the IoKs for Hangerback Walkers, and they often blank leak with Cavern or just a pile of mana.
That sounds like they would help, though it does come at a notable cost as you said. I do appreciate the advice tho. I might just rely on Valakut not being played that much over other decks, but if it goes up I'll for sure be packing those.
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Also, how does the card work
If you use both sides you pay 4 mana, correct?
What about discarding them at a random? Would I, as the player just chose two cards they're holding at random and pick it, and have them reveal if they aren't lands?
I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand regarding your second question - two cards are revealed at random, if they're nonland they're discarded.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Pretty much, they reveal 2 cards at random and discard any of them which aren't lands.
You can only play one side or the other, but both sides feel pretty good in a GDS deck. We also just saw on camera a bit ago one of the nice results of the recent rules change. Previously, a split or fuse card had color identity and CMC equal to one or the other side, as long as it was in your hand and graveyard, but effects that do somthing for one can apply to the other. Fuse cards are the same, but you can cast BOTH halves together. A split card or fuse card on the stack had CMC equal to whichever (or both combined) that was actually cast. A recent exploit was Kari Zev's Expertise and Breaking // Entering. The text on Expertise says "Cast spell CMC 2 or less." In the hand, the Breaking half has CMC 2 or less, so the card can be cast for free off Expertise. Since it is a Fuse cards, when the card is cast, you can do both halves, so you get both halves of Breaking // Entering for free off Expertise.
That rule was updated a short while ago to state that Split and Fuse cards have CMC equal to the total combined of both cards at all times, no exceptions. That makes exploits more difficult and general understanding easier. However, the unforeseen consequences happened in the Lantern game where you can't take Rise // Fall with Inquisition of Kozilek because, instead of having a CMC of 2 in the hand, it has the full 4 of both halves combined.
TL;DR - Rise Fall dodges Inquisition because CMC is 4 (both halves combined). Used to be either/or/both for CMC, which allowed for exploits. Rules changed recently to fix that and clear up confusion.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think you read to much into that statement, I read it as the double discard and the bounce + return to hand from yard are both useful individually.
Maybe I'm wrong and the poster did think you could fuse it but I read it as both sides are useful.
edit: nevermind didn't notice Spseigel's comment
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Blood Crypt
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
Creatures (16)
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Fatal Push
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Nihil Spellbomb
I feel like the sideboard is 1 to 2 cards short for the Burn matchup. My current plan is -4 Wraith, +1 Denial, +2 Brutality, +1 LotV. I'd like to trim 1 to 2 Thoughtseize as well. Is Temur Battle Rage or another removal spell the next best general sideboard card against Burn? What other options would you consider?
To make room, I was thinking about consolidating 2 of the artifact, colorless, and graveyard hate into 1 Rakdos Charm. I'm pretty sure Charm is good vs. Eldrazi Tron and Affinity, but would you play it against the mirror? I'm thinking -1 Rejection, -1 Extraction, +1 Charm, +1 TBR/Terminate/Dreadbore.
Would 1 Extraction and 2 Spellbomb be sufficient GY hate for the mirror?
Thanks for any help/advice.
Anyone look at Jessups list? He's running a very standard 60, except he cut a land down to 18---what do you guys think of this? Grixis did well on camera this weekend, but did you guys notice that in nearly every game the grixis players were flooding?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
if Shadow decks go away i don't know if bolt would come back though.
Cutting 1x push, cutting 1x land, cutting 1x stubborn denial down to 2 copies, and cutting 1x thought scour.
Obviously, I wouldn't recommend that, but it'd get you your bolts.
I like Temur Battle Rage quite a bit against Burn, just watch out for their Paths and Deflecting Palms post-board. For something specifically anti-burn, another Collective Brutality would obviously be great, and it has broad enough applications that 3 is not unreasonable. As you mentioned though, Battle Rage, Terminate, or Dreadbore are all fine here. TBR very often represents a one-shot kill, and Terminate and Dreadbore aren't as good as Bolt or Push but they are relevant cards and their strength in other matchups does give them extra value as one of your 15 slots.
If you think that there are enough control/spell based decks, then going above the 4th Stubborn Denial and adding Countersquall or Dispel is also an option. These are quite good against burn while also having applications elsewhere.
Rakdos Charm is definitely a legitimate sideboard option. It is good against artifact decks, and is good against Dredge, Living End and other dedicated graveyard decks. Do NOT bring it in in the mirror, though, because while graveyard hate is fine it is not worth two mana and a card. You want this as a Shatter that also doubles as a hate card against decks that need their graveyard (Dredge, Living End). For the same reason, I don't like Surgical in the mirror because it costs a card but doesn't affect the board or their hand.
Graveyard hate for the mirror isn't strictly necessary, but it can be good in the right form. Spellbomb is fine because it messes with their graveyard Snapcasters and Tasigurs but doesn't cost a card, plus it cycles when you don't need it. The other option is to go for the high impact knockout blow and board 3~4 Leyline of the Void. This costs a card and has deckbuilding consequences, but is powerful enough to be worth it. (I personally don't like this plan but its something to consider, especially if you expect lots of graveyard decks.)
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
Also, this deck is really slowing down on growing uptick. I really hope it gets hated hard and people actually start playing other strategies like BW Pox and UW Control which wreck Shadow pretty hard. Still, Grixis DS is the best deck in the format and i fully expect action from R&D and WOTC.
Of note is that ElTronzi have been adapting to us by running Hangarback Walkers in the board, making post board games more challenging than before.
Anyone have any ideas? Am I just a scrub or is my mind making stupid connections since I've lost a lot to them recently.
I'm of those persons who still believe DS is very good but not oppressively good.
Chamaleon Colossus seems like a total beating. Valakut decks are proving powerful in this metagame. I think it had a few 7-1 in the MOCS.
Valakut is a tough matchup for the typical builds, but -2 IoK, +2 Leak and 2 Disdainful Stroke in the SB is enough to turn the matchup in my experience. But usually Stroke comes at the cost of Ceremonious Rejection, And both changes will hurt your Eldrazi Tron matchup. You need the IoKs for Hangerback Walkers, and they often blank leak with Cavern or just a pile of mana.
Yeah, it did have a few placements, I don't even really know what it loses to. Chameleon is so disgusting (I had a game the other day where I misclicked and didnt take it: THE WORST), just hoping others move to jund/4c death shadow since they arent as affected by problack which means people will pack it less.
That sounds like they would help, though it does come at a notable cost as you said. I do appreciate the advice tho. I might just rely on Valakut not being played that much over other decks, but if it goes up I'll for sure be packing those.