You can see here only 2 Sleights and 18 lands. I know cutting down lands seems greedy, but it should make the deck more compact and more redundant which are good things.
I've been on 2 Sleights and 18 lands lately. I only have 2 copies and it felt fine to me, 4 seems like too much. You definitely get to dig a lot more but manascrew is an issue. Higher risk, higher reward.
Isn't it scary to cut down to 1 terminate?
I think a lot of mirrors and grindy decks preying on shadow may justify a 1x LOTV in the SB
Both of them had 1 Terminate in the main and 1 Terminate in the side. Since they also had a 1-1 split of Kommands main and side I get the sense that they were trying to make the mainboard as streamlined as possible and not play too many cards that are clunky and get caught up in your hand, which must be why they added the extra denial and bolts. They're version is still more akin to Ari's version, and I think is where we want to be. I've been playing 1 Terminate for a while, but I also have a copy of dismember to aid it. Lightning Bolt in their case can also help them tackle down delve threats.
Liliana of the Veil is cute, but I really don't want to spend that much money on a card to test it, especially if it ends up getting cut from the list. The card is great and busts mirrors, but a second copy of the Last Hope can do a similar job, grinding you out of matches where you can start to fall behind. Pyroclasm is pretty surprising to see but I think they both were trying to lower their curve in order to hedge against Death and Taxes.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
I have tried running 3 Angler / 1 Tasigur. Tasigur is significantly easier to cast on turn 2 and easier to sneak past Relic of Progenitus, of which Eldrazi Tron usually runs 4. The mirror matchup is actually one of the few occasions at which Tasigur's ability matters. The deck does not have a high creature count, so LtLH often benefits from extra mill action. It's also a good way of getting a Terminate ready for a snap-back, which is also important in the mirror. So I wouldn't say that Angler is "much better" than Tasigur. Maybe slightly better if the match doesn't turn into a grindfest and potentially worse if it does.
The thing is that 5 power matters a lot against Eldrazi Tron and mirror matches. Angler is one of the few cards that can actively trade with a smasher and doesn't get you 2 for 1'd, plus it turns TBR into a Terminate that doesn't make you discard. The mirror is an interesting monster in itself. While it can seem to come down to card advantage (and it can at times but that player is going to win then regardless of Tasigur's ability), it's more about efficiency than anything. Tasigur's ability isn't efficient, and often leaves you to getting blown out by a Terminate or Dismember. Post board both of you will have 4 copies of Stubborn Denial and the last thing either of you want to do is tap out and show your opponent that you don't have one. Also in combat Gurmag being able to tackle opposing Tasgurs and not die is a lot more relevant than you think. Also you don't need to have a creature in the yard to make Liliana good, since if left unchecked she will just win the game by herself anyway.
Also I would much rather draw my Terminate than mill it, that way I get 2 uses out of it.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
oPoptartz, you seem to be very biased towards certain cards. So why are you even asking such a question, when you are already so convinced that you know the one and only right answer?
Tasigur's ability isn't efficient, and often leaves you to getting blown out by a Terminate or Dismember. Post board both of you will have 4 copies of Stubborn Denial and the last thing either of you want to do is tap out and show your opponent that you don't have one.
Post board in the mirror match, I will have exactly 0 copies of Stubborn Denial.
Also in combat Gurmag being able to tackle opposing Tasgurs and not die is a lot more relevant than you think.
Really, what do you want to tell me? That I don't know what is relevant in the mirror match? That have no idea what I'm talking about? That's how it sounds. Or is it possible that different play styles and strategies exist and not just the one play style and one strategy you personally favor?
Dropped a fatal push ( not sure about it) just to improve my match aganist D&t , I'm sure it's going to be the most played or at least the second most played deck tonight.
TBR is strong game 1 trick, even though I'm not a huge fan of it, it's still works.
You deck looks mostly solid, but if you expect a good amount of DnT and Shadow then I think anything less that 4 Push is probably a mistake. I get wanting some Lighting Bolts, but I think they need to be in addition to, not instead of Push. Bolt is certainly good, and it a much cleaner answer to Displacer and Crusader. On the other hand, Push is in your main color and kills everything (outside Crusader) up to and including Resto and TKS.
If there are lots of spell based decks you cant go too crazy on removal, but if you are playing against creatures every round then there is nothing wrong with overloading on removal. 4 Push, 2 Bolt, 2 Terminate, and possibly a Dismember isn't unreasonable. Going this high would cost you points against Valakut, non-Eldrazi Tron, etc., but it looks very nice in creature battles.
Random Thoughts:
Is there any Dredge running around? The single Spellbomb is certainly fine to have around because it helps in graveyard-based fair matchups as well, but it is pretty light if you want to battle dedicated graveyard decks. (The Flaying Tendrils do help here, I will admit)
If the exile portion of Tendrils isn't needed, the instant speed of Kozilek's Return is a huge benefit. For the record I think that Tendrils is very playable and sometimes the right choice, but I usually rank Return and Anger above it and only use it in specific situations. Any insight into your choice there?
I usually max out on Stubborn Denial first, but I do love me a Countersquall.
I have been playing a single Dreabore lately as well, and I think it is quite good. I have had games against Affinity when I just wished it was a Terminate, but it has also killed Nahiris, Gideons, Lilianas, and Ashioks so it pulls its weight.
It seems that you took my counter-argument to your post as a direct attack. That was not at all my intention and I apologize if it came off that way. My goal was to explain why I prefer Angler over Tasigur. If it seems like I am approaching the mirror strongly, it's because that is one of the few matchups that I've been testing constantly. When I'm not at my LGS the only other friend in proximity at school that plays modern also has the same deck so we get a lot of reps in of the mirror. I'm just offering my insight into what I've experienced but if you disagree with everything I have said than that's perfectly fine. I simply asked if others have tried the 3-1 Angler/Tasigur split, and then gave my reasoning on why I prefer it in the post above.
Also if I may ask, what exactly is your reasoning for having 0 copies of Denial post board? Do you leave in all 6 discard spells? I'm now very curious as to what approach you take in the mirror and how your results have been.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
I was playtesting against UB Faeries and was destroyed every game, especially after SB. Would more counterspells be better post board or more discard?
Right now I run 2 remand and 2 denial MB for counters, I also MB 3 TS and 2 IoK for my discard. I don't own a fourth TS.
Without TBR(2 MB), I couldn't bust through the continuous onslaught of tokens. I have one EE but I'm not using it,instead I'm using 2 ratchet bomb in my SB.
I didn't feel like I misplayed either.
Faeries can be rough, with Bitterblossom in particular being pretty annoying.
Both counters and discard are good. Remand is quite awkward because they play a lot at instant speed and it only really good if you get on the front foot quickly. Ratchet Bomb and EE are pretty close to the same card in this matchup, being "2:blow up the tokens", but I think Explosives is the better card overall and it is not out of the question to use it one 2 to hit BB and Spellstutter. Kozileks's Return or Anger of the Gods are good here. Izzet Staticaster is also great if you have access to it.
I have played againt Faeries players that board into things like Damnnation, if they have this then counterspells are quite useful.
They produce lots of blockers, but they also do a fair amount of damage to themselve so in a lot of cases one good Battle Rage is enough to finish them off. If you can't Battle Rage, then forcing them into a situation where they have to chump block is essential.
This is also a matchup where you need to be careful with your life total. Their creautres all fly and stack up quickly if they don't have to play defence, and Creeping Tarpit also represents a very quick clock if you aren't careful.
It seems that you took my counter-argument to your post as a direct attack. That was not at all my intention and I apologize if it came off that way.
Apology accepted. I might have overreacted a bit, but I really dislike it when people make too many assumptions out of the blue on what I do and what I think. I would not have answered your question if I hadn't done quite a bit of testing with the third Angler. I also wanted to make it work, but in the end, it didn't work for my play style.
My goal was to explain why I prefer Angler over Tasigur. If it seems like I am approaching the mirror strongly, it's because that is one of the few matchups that I've been testing constantly. When I'm not at my LGS the only other friend in proximity at school that plays modern also has the same deck so we get a lot of reps in of the mirror.
IMHO, this is not a good way to master the mirror matchup. If you play against the same person over and over again, the two of you will end up heavily influencing each other.
Also if I may ask, what exactly is your reasoning for having 0 copies of Denial post board? Do you leave in all 6 discard spells? I'm now very curious as to what approach you take in the mirror and how your results have been.
Yes, I leave all my discard spells in the deck and board out my Stubborn Denials because we can only have so many reactive cards without hurting the threat density. IoK used to be the card I liked least in the deck, but my various attempts to cut it have resulted in too many game losses. Our deck archetype has so many different roads to victory and I really want to know what my opponent is working with. Unless I get a very explosive hand, my plan is to make sure that the game goes long and requires a lot of micromanagement. I'm a control player at heart and these are the kinds of games that I usually end up winning.
If my opponents were pro players, I would probably lose more often than not by taking this road because I'm not a pro player. But as things stand, I win about 2/3 of the mirror matches, making Grixis DS one of my best matchups in practice. This is why I don't feel an urge to optimize specifically against it. Currently, so many decks pack hate against us, making me feel that I need every available sideboard slot to counter that hate.
If there are lots of spell based decks you cant go too crazy on removal, but if you are playing against creatures every round then there is nothing wrong with overloading on removal. 4 Push, 2 Bolt, 2 Terminate, and possibly a Dismember isn't unreasonable. Going this high would cost you points against Valakut, non-Eldrazi Tron, etc., but it looks very nice in creature battles.
TBH last night I never felt I was short on removal, only aganist D&T , but last night I reallized that I need to learn the interactions that d&t can do. I missplayed a lot ! I played the mirror as well, but the other player didn't had the same experience playing the match and my list has tons of removal and Lilianas to grind.
Random Thoughts:
Is there any Dredge running around? The single Spellbomb is certainly fine to have around because it helps in graveyard-based fair matchups as well, but it is pretty light if you want to battle dedicated graveyard decks. (The Flaying Tendrils do help here, I will admit)
If the exile portion of Tendrils isn't needed, the instant speed of Kozilek's Return is a huge benefit. For the record I think that Tendrils is very playable and sometimes the right choice, but I usually rank Return and Anger above it and only use it in specific situations. Any insight into your choice there?
At my LGS pepople own all the top decks, most of them have 2-3 decks... sometime the night is packed with Burn, sometimes TRON variants, Shadow variants, Dredge, it's a real gamble! Flaying Tendrills is a catch them all, that's medium aganist Afinity, Dredge and WhiteWinnies. I fell if my meta had more Dredge I would put a Grafdigger's Cage and maybe +1 Nihil Spellbomb.
I usually max out on Stubborn Denial first, but I do love me a Countersquall.
I like having a non ferocity negate, just in case.
I have been playing a single Dreabore lately as well, and I think it is quite good. I have had games against Affinity when I just wished it was a Terminate, but it has also killed Nahiris, Gideons, Lilianas, and Ashioks so it pulls its weight.
About Dreadbore, I don't get why people don't play it as much. Since I tried I never wanted to cut it, it's crazy good, specially in the mirror.
Yes, I leave all my discard spells in the deck and board out my Stubborn Denials because we can only have so many reactive cards without hurting the threat density. IoK used to be the card I liked least in the deck, but my various attempts to cut it have resulted in too many game losses. Our deck archetype has so many different roads to victory and I really want to know what my opponent is working with. Unless I get a very explosive hand, my plan is to make sure that the game goes long and requires a lot of micromanagement. I'm a control player at heart and these are the kinds of games that I usually end up winning.
The mirror is a atriction match leaving up counterspell , most of the time is a bad idea. The match is all about who stick a threat, soo dicards are better then counterspell, since we barely go to top deck war. If we do , probably you won't have a threat to make a full use of S. Denial. Just my two cents on the matter boyz. (:
Edit: Depending on your list leaving 1-2 S. Denial is worth, my last list that I played with 2 bolts, I tend to leave up the S. Denials and remove bolts from mirror. Bolt + Snap + Bolt is just a dream, most of the time you will only see a Zombie Fish smashing your face and that bolt dead on your hand...
Faeries can go either way depending on how the game plays out. You absolutely need to hold up Stubborn Denial for their T2 Bitterblossom, because once that thing lands it's extremely difficult to break through.
It wasn't bitterblossom that was so bad, they have notorious throng which caught me off guard. They play so many counterspells and discard the game goes long until they sower tasigur or gurmag. Those v.cliques and sower followed by that throng thing for its prowl cost and started chaining turns wrecked me.
I'm trying to figure out if I should be attacking their hand or if I should be counter heavy.
Jesus, I'm just messing around in the practice rooms on MTGO, and people are tuning their decks to unbelievable levels to combat grixis
I literally just had a game 3 where someone exiled two of my creatures with dispatch while they path's 2 of my other threats, the salt on my end was real. It was such overkill to the point of frustration. I hope that guy loses a ton doing that
Jack Kiefer has 3 (I think?) Ancestral Vision in his sideboard. Interesting choice. I wonder taking up that sideboard space will work out against the general field.
Isn't it scary to cut down to 1 terminate?
I think a lot of mirrors and grindy decks preying on shadow may justify a 1x LOTV in the SB
Liliana of the Veil is cute, but I really don't want to spend that much money on a card to test it, especially if it ends up getting cut from the list. The card is great and busts mirrors, but a second copy of the Last Hope can do a similar job, grinding you out of matches where you can start to fall behind. Pyroclasm is pretty surprising to see but I think they both were trying to lower their curve in order to hedge against Death and Taxes.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
The thing is that 5 power matters a lot against Eldrazi Tron and mirror matches. Angler is one of the few cards that can actively trade with a smasher and doesn't get you 2 for 1'd, plus it turns TBR into a Terminate that doesn't make you discard. The mirror is an interesting monster in itself. While it can seem to come down to card advantage (and it can at times but that player is going to win then regardless of Tasigur's ability), it's more about efficiency than anything. Tasigur's ability isn't efficient, and often leaves you to getting blown out by a Terminate or Dismember. Post board both of you will have 4 copies of Stubborn Denial and the last thing either of you want to do is tap out and show your opponent that you don't have one. Also in combat Gurmag being able to tackle opposing Tasgurs and not die is a lot more relevant than you think. Also you don't need to have a creature in the yard to make Liliana good, since if left unchecked she will just win the game by herself anyway.
Also I would much rather draw my Terminate than mill it, that way I get 2 uses out of it.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
You deck looks mostly solid, but if you expect a good amount of DnT and Shadow then I think anything less that 4 Push is probably a mistake. I get wanting some Lighting Bolts, but I think they need to be in addition to, not instead of Push. Bolt is certainly good, and it a much cleaner answer to Displacer and Crusader. On the other hand, Push is in your main color and kills everything (outside Crusader) up to and including Resto and TKS.
If there are lots of spell based decks you cant go too crazy on removal, but if you are playing against creatures every round then there is nothing wrong with overloading on removal. 4 Push, 2 Bolt, 2 Terminate, and possibly a Dismember isn't unreasonable. Going this high would cost you points against Valakut, non-Eldrazi Tron, etc., but it looks very nice in creature battles.
Random Thoughts:
Is there any Dredge running around? The single Spellbomb is certainly fine to have around because it helps in graveyard-based fair matchups as well, but it is pretty light if you want to battle dedicated graveyard decks. (The Flaying Tendrils do help here, I will admit)
If the exile portion of Tendrils isn't needed, the instant speed of Kozilek's Return is a huge benefit. For the record I think that Tendrils is very playable and sometimes the right choice, but I usually rank Return and Anger above it and only use it in specific situations. Any insight into your choice there?
I usually max out on Stubborn Denial first, but I do love me a Countersquall.
I have been playing a single Dreabore lately as well, and I think it is quite good. I have had games against Affinity when I just wished it was a Terminate, but it has also killed Nahiris, Gideons, Lilianas, and Ashioks so it pulls its weight.
Also if I may ask, what exactly is your reasoning for having 0 copies of Denial post board? Do you leave in all 6 discard spells? I'm now very curious as to what approach you take in the mirror and how your results have been.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
Right now I run 2 remand and 2 denial MB for counters, I also MB 3 TS and 2 IoK for my discard. I don't own a fourth TS.
Without TBR(2 MB), I couldn't bust through the continuous onslaught of tokens. I have one EE but I'm not using it,instead I'm using 2 ratchet bomb in my SB.
I didn't feel like I misplayed either.
Both counters and discard are good. Remand is quite awkward because they play a lot at instant speed and it only really good if you get on the front foot quickly. Ratchet Bomb and EE are pretty close to the same card in this matchup, being "2:blow up the tokens", but I think Explosives is the better card overall and it is not out of the question to use it one 2 to hit BB and Spellstutter. Kozileks's Return or Anger of the Gods are good here. Izzet Staticaster is also great if you have access to it.
I have played againt Faeries players that board into things like Damnnation, if they have this then counterspells are quite useful.
They produce lots of blockers, but they also do a fair amount of damage to themselve so in a lot of cases one good Battle Rage is enough to finish them off. If you can't Battle Rage, then forcing them into a situation where they have to chump block is essential.
This is also a matchup where you need to be careful with your life total. Their creautres all fly and stack up quickly if they don't have to play defence, and Creeping Tarpit also represents a very quick clock if you aren't careful.
If my opponents were pro players, I would probably lose more often than not by taking this road because I'm not a pro player. But as things stand, I win about 2/3 of the mirror matches, making Grixis DS one of my best matchups in practice. This is why I don't feel an urge to optimize specifically against it. Currently, so many decks pack hate against us, making me feel that I need every available sideboard slot to counter that hate.
TBH last night I never felt I was short on removal, only aganist D&T , but last night I reallized that I need to learn the interactions that d&t can do. I missplayed a lot ! I played the mirror as well, but the other player didn't had the same experience playing the match and my list has tons of removal and Lilianas to grind.
At my LGS pepople own all the top decks, most of them have 2-3 decks... sometime the night is packed with Burn, sometimes TRON variants, Shadow variants, Dredge, it's a real gamble! Flaying Tendrills is a catch them all, that's medium aganist Afinity, Dredge and WhiteWinnies. I fell if my meta had more Dredge I would put a Grafdigger's Cage and maybe +1 Nihil Spellbomb.
I like having a non ferocity negate, just in case.
About Dreadbore, I don't get why people don't play it as much. Since I tried I never wanted to cut it, it's crazy good, specially in the mirror.
The mirror is a atriction match leaving up counterspell , most of the time is a bad idea. The match is all about who stick a threat, soo dicards are better then counterspell, since we barely go to top deck war. If we do , probably you won't have a threat to make a full use of S. Denial. Just my two cents on the matter boyz. (:
Edit: Depending on your list leaving 1-2 S. Denial is worth, my last list that I played with 2 bolts, I tend to leave up the S. Denials and remove bolts from mirror. Bolt + Snap + Bolt is just a dream, most of the time you will only see a Zombie Fish smashing your face and that bolt dead on your hand...
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I'm trying to figure out if I should be attacking their hand or if I should be counter heavy.
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Terminate
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Liliana of the Veil
I literally just had a game 3 where someone exiled two of my creatures with dispatch while they path's 2 of my other threats, the salt on my end was real. It was such overkill to the point of frustration. I hope that guy loses a ton doing that
www.twitch.com/scgtour
Just saw Mono green Tron beat up on Merfolk. Walking Ballista is a pretty good card when you have access to 14 mana.
Grixis mirror up next.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Jack Kiefer has 3 (I think?) Ancestral Vision in his sideboard. Interesting choice. I wonder taking up that sideboard space will work out against the general field.