Man, the deck feels so damn powerful, it feels like it has the answer to almost everything.
It's definitely got its weaknesses. I'll recap the last 50 pages for you so you don't have to go through it all, lol:
1. Enchantments: We have no way to deal with resolved enchantments. If you run EE you can deal with Rest in Peace and Bitterblossom, but you can't deal with Blood Moon unless you already had your basic swamp and island out, or set an EE on 3 beforehand, and we have no way to deal with Leylines unless you run Echoing Truth in the side, which most of us don't. Leyline of the Void seriously slows us down. You probably won't get to 6 or 7 mana to start hardcasting your delve fatties, although it does happen, so you just have to hope to draw Shadows and beat down with your Snapcasters in the meantime. We're less vulnerable to it than the Jund version, but it still hurts a lot. Leyline of Sanctity is also a beating, because most decks that run it against us are combo or control decks where discard is our best way to interact.
2. Tokens and go-wide decks: These kinds of strategies can be difficult for us to punch through, but we do have some good sideboard options. Sweepers are good, as is LtLH, Staticaster, and TBR.
3. Pro-black creatures: This is a newer plan of attack people are picking up on. A lot of us had dropped Lightning Bolt entirely, but I think we're going to have to go back to at least 1, if not 2 again.
4. Certain Planeswalkers: LotV is an absolute beating if she resolves. Some control decks have been playing the new Gideon, which forces us to extend into Verdicts. Gideon AoZ is also pretty good against us, as he can pump out chump blockers. Elspeth is practically unbeatable if she resolves. Some people play Dreadbore in the side, but I don't love it. You just have to take these problematic walkers with your discard, even if they're a few turns away, unless you have more discard in hand already. Going back to Bolt will probably also help a bit here.
Grixis definitely feels better than DSJ, it doesn't feel so "all in", where the blow-outs can be real. The deck isn't playing with 6x bad cards (4x Baubles, 2x Tarfires). The fact Angler and Tasigur dodge push just make them better than a 7/8 Goyf. Can't believe DSJ even lasted as long as it did.
Eh, there are pluses and minuses to both. Jund is faster and more consistent at applying pressure, but has a much harder time if the game goes long. Goyf getting hit by Push does hurt them, but he's also easier to cast and usually bigger than our delve guys, which is relevant. They also have better general answers like Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse. The real reason why Grixis is doing so well, though, is Stubborn Denial. It can protect our game plan against other interactive decks, and protect us from some dangerous top-decks. Even without ferocious turned on, you'll often be able to force spike something important. Nothing feels better than force spiking a Tron player's Ugin on turn 4, lol.
I'm seeing people trying to shove Crusaders and other anti-grixis cards in their 75, which is why I put in Flaying Tendrils and EE, along with my 1 of bolt in the main. I really dislike only having 2x Rejections, but I'm not sure what I'd cut...
It's a matter of preference, but I would change the Tendrils to a Kozilek's Return. Also kills the pro-color creatures, but instant speed means you can kill manlands with it. The exile effect on Tendrils isn't all that great because it doesn't kill Prized Amalgam.
This is my list i played my last league at MTGO. I really need some tips on how to increase my winrate agganist MonoW d&t! Maybe go back to 19 lands and bolts? This match fells bad man... On the other hand, EldraTron and the Mirror are quite good with this current 75. I would like some input from those who are playing 19 and 17 lands
Just for the record played with 17 lands , 3 comp leagues: 1st League: (4x1)
MonoW D&t 0x2
Grixis DS 2x0
Humans CoCo 2x0
Esper Faries 2x0
BW Eldrazi 2x1 2nd League: (1x4)
Jund 2x1
UW Control 1x2
Human CoCo 0x2
Afinity 1x2
Drop 3rd League:(3x2)
Ad Naseaum (2x1)
EldraTron (2x1)
MonoBlue???(0x2)
MonoW D&t (0x2)
Burn (2x0)
Brad Nelson v Todd Stevens is on SCG premium, Grixis v E-Tron.
I think perhaps cutting the 3rd K-Command for a 3rd Rejection may be correct, those 3 drops really start to become clunky
Nelson is running 2x bolt/3x push, and while I don't love losing a push, I have a feeling it could be the right choice
I still feel like I might want 2x Temur Battle Rage in my 75 for fighting through swarm decks. I really feel like I have to draw one of my two Anger of the Gods to have a chance otherwise. I've considered cutting a Fatal Push in the main for one (while keeping the singleton bolt) and running a second in the side.
Brad Nelson v Todd Stevens is on SCG premium, Grixis v E-Tron.
I think perhaps cutting the 3rd K-Command for a 3rd Rejection may be correct, those 3 drops really start to become clunky
Nelson is running 2x bolt/3x push, and while I don't love losing a push, I have a feeling it could be the right choice
I still feel like I might want 2x Temur Battle Rage in my 75 for fighting through swarm decks. I really feel like I have to draw one of my two Anger of the Gods to have a chance otherwise. I've considered cutting a Fatal Push in the main for one (while keeping the singleton bolt) and running a second in the side.
You should have more than the 2 angers to fight swarms in your SB - 2-3 other cards. Liliana, the Last Hope, Engineered Explosives, and/or Izzet Staticaster. If they don't swarm with a bunch of X/1s, that probably means they rely on just casting creatures and/or CoCo, which we are much better set up to fight naturally.
I have 1x Anger, 1x Flaying, 1x Last Hope, and 1x Izzet Staticaster. Battle-Rage seems like overkill at that point. Discard, counters and Shadows seem enough that I don't want to sideboard for temur for decks that don't interact.
I feel as though Battle-rage in the MD is a mistake
I don't particularly love having EE or Flaying Tendrils in the SB, but metas adapt and I don't think I can be greedy
The meta here in the Netherlands can be totaly inbred, so I'm really looking into the mirror. What about Ashiok in the sideboard, seeing as graveyard hate is comming in. Exiling a threat and possibly playing.
I tried Ashiok last week , he is only usefull on the mirror. Try LoTV she is really good at the mirror and other grindys matches.
The meta here in the Netherlands can be totaly inbred, so I'm really looking into the mirror. What about Ashiok in the sideboard, seeing as graveyard hate is comming in. Exiling a threat and possibly playing.
I tried Ashiok last week , he is only usefull on the mirror. Try LoTV she is really good at the mirror and other grindys matches.
Yeah, LotV is fantastic in the mirror. Better than Ashiok, I'd wager, because she impacts the board the turn she comes down. And still very good vs a lot of other stuff.
Painful Truths can often be very awkward in mirrors because your life total is under attack a decent % of the time. Our mirror breakers should typically impact the board.
The meta here in the Netherlands can be totaly inbred, so I'm really looking into the mirror. What about Ashiok in the sideboard, seeing as graveyard hate is comming in. Exiling a threat and possibly playing.
I tried Ashiok last week , he is only usefull on the mirror.
And against Abzan Coco, Zoo, Hatebears...
Chameleon Colossus is turning out to be a big problem. Bolt doesn't kill it, nothing in our deck blocks it profitably.. Roast?!
You can see here only 2 Sleights and 18 lands. I know cutting down lands seems greedy, but it should make the deck more compact and more redundant which are good things.
Also, i think with Grixis Shadow closing in a whopping 15% of the metagame, it's safe to say that Liliana of the Veil is pretty much a SB staple as it fights several decks AND the mirror. Eldrazi,Combo and UW(R)/x hate her too.
It kills everything in the mirror other than big Death Shadow's, kills Smasher and TKS, but the most important thing is it kills Mirran Crusader and Chamelleon Collosus.
Being 2cmc is also a big deal as Tron putting Chalice on 1 is annoying; so having Roast gives us time to kill things before we can find a K-Command.
Probably only going to try 1, but it seems good in theory.
You can see here only 2 Sleights and 18 lands. I know cutting down lands seems greedy, but it should make the deck more compact and more redundant which are good things.
It's nice to see others are also on 2 Sleights and 18 lands as well. This was something that I tried in one of my early builds and got reamed for doing. It's a happy medium that allows for more digging without having to worry to much about cantripping into more cantrips too often. Sleight of Hand is great, but here's still to hoping that one day we can get preordain to go along with Serum. That would be the dream.
I am just waiting for one Liliana's Defeat. Next level tech that will their Lilianas as well as every black creature.
Liliana's Defeat also looks like more sweet deck for other black decks. That with Claim//Fame could end up being deece.
I was discussing some choices about the deck with a longtime player of GDS and he said that 2 Kommand main and 2 Liliana, the last hope in the side is more than enough for fighting the grind. I agree with this. I hate getting clogged on 3 drops and 3 Kommand with 2 Lili's is just overkill. Liliana is way more backbreaking than Kommand is for these matchups AND she is gas vs a lot of the swarm decks.
If you need more tools to fight Chalice we already have a lot. 6 discard spells, 4 Denials, 2-3 Rejections is all a ton of ways to prevent one from coming down. If you want a 3rd way to fight a resolved Chalice go with Engineered Explosives instead of the 3rd Kommand. It's a nice general answer to a lot of things and can answer an unchecked chalice if need be. By Force is fine, but the card is way too narrow for me to justify slots for just affinity (and other fringe decks like Eggs and Blue Steel).
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
Has anyone on this list that doesn't run 4 Sleight of Hands tried running 3 Angler - 1 Tasigur. Angler is much better vs. Eldrazi and mirror matches because it trades with every non Shadow creature and clocks faster. Also angler works a little better with TBR. I find myself never really getting the opportunity to use Tasigur's ability anyway, and if I am in that spot I'm probably very ahead anyway. I think for a deck like this vs. Grixis control we can utilize the extra power more often than we can utilize the Tasigur ability. Also milling Discard spells feels pretty terrible when activating the ability.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
Has anyone on this list that doesn't run 4 Sleight of Hands tried running 3 Angler - 1 Tasigur. Angler is much better vs. Eldrazi and mirror matches because it trades with every non Shadow creature and clocks faster. Also angler works a little better with TBR. I find myself never really getting the opportunity to use Tasigur's ability anyway, and if I am in that spot I'm probably very ahead anyway. I think for a deck like this vs. Grixis control we can utilize the extra power more often than we can utilize the Tasigur ability. Also milling Discard spells feels pretty terrible when activating the ability.
I have tried running 3 Angler / 1 Tasigur. Tasigur is significantly easier to cast on turn 2 and easier to sneak past Relic of Progenitus, of which Eldrazi Tron usually runs 4. The mirror matchup is actually one of the few occasions at which Tasigur's ability matters. The deck does not have a high creature count, so LtLH often benefits from extra mill action. It's also a good way of getting a Terminate ready for a snap-back, which is also important in the mirror. So I wouldn't say that Angler is "much better" than Tasigur. Maybe slightly better if the match doesn't turn into a grindfest and potentially worse if it does.
So, maybe cutting the Izzet Staticaster makes sense for cutting the 2nd Lilly? They play similar roles, but one of them can also grind.
I value the second Liliana higher than the first Staticaster unless I want something very specific out of the Staticaster. Like you said, Liliana can grind, so you can also use it against Jund, UW, and the mirror and not exclusively x/1s. Staticaster is great against Lingering Souls, but Lingering Souls decks are midrange deck where you will want all of the planeswalkers anyway. The point where I would want Staticaster is if there was a lot of specifically Affinity and Company, but even then is possible you want extra Kozilek's Return slots. There are only so many slots for 3 drops, and drawing 2 or 3 of them is a way to trip up and get run over even in matchups where the cards are great.
You can see here only 2 Sleights and 18 lands. I know cutting down lands seems greedy, but it should make the deck more compact and more redundant which are good things.
I've been on 2 Sleights and 18 lands lately. I only have 2 copies and it felt fine to me, 4 seems like too much. You definitely get to dig a lot more but manascrew is an issue. Higher risk, higher reward.
Hey guys, me again! I'm going to play a modern event today with at least 30 players... I was theorycrafting this list, I'm expecting MonoW D&t , Grixis DS, EldraTron and most of the top tier decks.
Just a quick info about the current MB and SB.
Dropped a fatal push ( not sure about it) just to improve my match aganist D&t , I'm sure it's going to be the most played or at least the second most played deck tonight.
TBR is strong game 1 trick, even though I'm not a huge fan of it, it's still works.
SB:
2 C. Reject. - This card is insane but at my LGS meta isn't worth to put 3.
1 S. Denial - Could be 2 if I cut the countersquall.
1 Nihill - Just a little GY hate.
2 C. Brut. - This card is insane, never going to cut it.
2 F. Tendrills - Exile effect + Devoid
1 Lili last Hope - Grindy MVP
1 Lili of The Veil - Just to good.
1 K. Command - For grindy matches and afinity
1 Izzet S. - Lingering Souls and x/1 creatures
1 Dreadbore - Good at the mirror and aganist decks that uses PW ( RW Prision )
1 Terminate - Just a overkill for the mirror, no GURGMAG SHALL PASS !
1 Countersquall - Just to have a unconditional counter ... could be reverted to a 2nd S. Denial
Please guys, I would really enjoy some input on my list
I'd say Fatal Push is your best card against D&T, no idea why you'd drop it.
They do a similar job in this match. Push doesn't kill Mirran and Bolt doesn't kill Resto. Angel. TBH I might put the Puh back again and only play with 1 Bolt...
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This is a pretty good summary. I'd like to add two more points:
1. Fliers. A resolved Sigarda is bad news bears. Those dorky spirits too. I've had a lot of trouble beating Bant spirits specifically
2. Graveyard hate. Obvious, but a Leyline of the Void/RIP seriously cripples the deck
4 Death's Shadow
4 Sreet Wraith
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants&Sorceries
4 Sleight of Hands
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
2 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Cerimonious Rejection
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Nihill Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
2 Flaying Tendrills
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana of The Veil
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Dreadbore
This is my list i played my last league at MTGO. I really need some tips on how to increase my winrate agganist MonoW d&t! Maybe go back to 19 lands and bolts? This match fells bad man... On the other hand, EldraTron and the Mirror are quite good with this current 75. I would like some input from those who are playing 19 and 17 lands
Just for the record played with 17 lands , 3 comp leagues:
1st League: (4x1)
MonoW D&t 0x2
Grixis DS 2x0
Humans CoCo 2x0
Esper Faries 2x0
BW Eldrazi 2x1
2nd League: (1x4)
Jund 2x1
UW Control 1x2
Human CoCo 0x2
Afinity 1x2
Drop
3rd League:(3x2)
Ad Naseaum (2x1)
EldraTron (2x1)
MonoBlue???(0x2)
MonoW D&t (0x2)
Burn (2x0)
I still feel like I might want 2x Temur Battle Rage in my 75 for fighting through swarm decks. I really feel like I have to draw one of my two Anger of the Gods to have a chance otherwise. I've considered cutting a Fatal Push in the main for one (while keeping the singleton bolt) and running a second in the side.
You should have more than the 2 angers to fight swarms in your SB - 2-3 other cards. Liliana, the Last Hope, Engineered Explosives, and/or Izzet Staticaster. If they don't swarm with a bunch of X/1s, that probably means they rely on just casting creatures and/or CoCo, which we are much better set up to fight naturally.
I feel as though Battle-rage in the MD is a mistake
I don't particularly love having EE or Flaying Tendrils in the SB, but metas adapt and I don't think I can be greedy
I tried Ashiok last week , he is only usefull on the mirror. Try LoTV she is really good at the mirror and other grindys matches.
Yeah, LotV is fantastic in the mirror. Better than Ashiok, I'd wager, because she impacts the board the turn she comes down. And still very good vs a lot of other stuff.
And against Abzan Coco, Zoo, Hatebears...
Chameleon Colossus is turning out to be a big problem. Bolt doesn't kill it, nothing in our deck blocks it profitably.. Roast?!
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
http://f2fseries.facetofacegames.com/facetofacegames-com-edmonton-open-coverage-june-24th-2017/
You can see here only 2 Sleights and 18 lands. I know cutting down lands seems greedy, but it should make the deck more compact and more redundant which are good things.
Also, i think with Grixis Shadow closing in a whopping 15% of the metagame, it's safe to say that Liliana of the Veil is pretty much a SB staple as it fights several decks AND the mirror. Eldrazi,Combo and UW(R)/x hate her too.
It kills everything in the mirror other than big Death Shadow's, kills Smasher and TKS, but the most important thing is it kills Mirran Crusader and Chamelleon Collosus.
Being 2cmc is also a big deal as Tron putting Chalice on 1 is annoying; so having Roast gives us time to kill things before we can find a K-Command.
Probably only going to try 1, but it seems good in theory.
It's nice to see others are also on 2 Sleights and 18 lands as well. This was something that I tried in one of my early builds and got reamed for doing. It's a happy medium that allows for more digging without having to worry to much about cantripping into more cantrips too often. Sleight of Hand is great, but here's still to hoping that one day we can get preordain to go along with Serum. That would be the dream.
Liliana's Defeat also looks like more sweet deck for other black decks. That with Claim//Fame could end up being deece.
I was discussing some choices about the deck with a longtime player of GDS and he said that 2 Kommand main and 2 Liliana, the last hope in the side is more than enough for fighting the grind. I agree with this. I hate getting clogged on 3 drops and 3 Kommand with 2 Lili's is just overkill. Liliana is way more backbreaking than Kommand is for these matchups AND she is gas vs a lot of the swarm decks.
If you need more tools to fight Chalice we already have a lot. 6 discard spells, 4 Denials, 2-3 Rejections is all a ton of ways to prevent one from coming down. If you want a 3rd way to fight a resolved Chalice go with Engineered Explosives instead of the 3rd Kommand. It's a nice general answer to a lot of things and can answer an unchecked chalice if need be. By Force is fine, but the card is way too narrow for me to justify slots for just affinity (and other fringe decks like Eggs and Blue Steel).
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
I value the second Liliana higher than the first Staticaster unless I want something very specific out of the Staticaster. Like you said, Liliana can grind, so you can also use it against Jund, UW, and the mirror and not exclusively x/1s. Staticaster is great against Lingering Souls, but Lingering Souls decks are midrange deck where you will want all of the planeswalkers anyway. The point where I would want Staticaster is if there was a lot of specifically Affinity and Company, but even then is possible you want extra Kozilek's Return slots. There are only so many slots for 3 drops, and drawing 2 or 3 of them is a way to trip up and get run over even in matchups where the cards are great.
I've been on 2 Sleights and 18 lands lately. I only have 2 copies and it felt fine to me, 4 seems like too much. You definitely get to dig a lot more but manascrew is an issue. Higher risk, higher reward.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
4 Death's Shadow
4 Sreet Wraith
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Gurmag Angler
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants&Sorceries
2 Sleight of Hands
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
3 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Temur Battle Rage
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Cerimonious Rejection
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Countersquall
1 Nihill Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
2 Flaying Tendrills
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana of The Veil
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Dreadbore
1 Terminate
Hey guys, me again! I'm going to play a modern event today with at least 30 players... I was theorycrafting this list, I'm expecting MonoW D&t , Grixis DS, EldraTron and most of the top tier decks.
Just a quick info about the current MB and SB.
Dropped a fatal push ( not sure about it) just to improve my match aganist D&t , I'm sure it's going to be the most played or at least the second most played deck tonight.
TBR is strong game 1 trick, even though I'm not a huge fan of it, it's still works.
SB:
2 C. Reject. - This card is insane but at my LGS meta isn't worth to put 3.
1 S. Denial - Could be 2 if I cut the countersquall.
1 Nihill - Just a little GY hate.
2 C. Brut. - This card is insane, never going to cut it.
2 F. Tendrills - Exile effect + Devoid
1 Lili last Hope - Grindy MVP
1 Lili of The Veil - Just to good.
1 K. Command - For grindy matches and afinity
1 Izzet S. - Lingering Souls and x/1 creatures
1 Dreadbore - Good at the mirror and aganist decks that uses PW ( RW Prision )
1 Terminate - Just a overkill for the mirror, no GURGMAG SHALL PASS !
1 Countersquall - Just to have a unconditional counter ... could be reverted to a 2nd S. Denial
Please guys, I would really enjoy some input on my list
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
They do a similar job in this match. Push doesn't kill Mirran and Bolt doesn't kill Resto. Angel. TBH I might put the Puh back again and only play with 1 Bolt...