Owen's list looks like he geared up for the mirror, but he left himself super vulnerable to swarm decks. I don't think it's a wise choice, especially not for him. He should have just leaned on his skill advantage for the mirror.
Ari's list is interesting. His theory behind the decision seems sound. I've been playing some practice games with it and it feels smooth.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
"I need to think about it a bit more, but I think I like the idea. His motivations for wanting more cantrips are basically the same as my motivations for wanting Mana Leak - I view this as more of a tempo deck than an attrition-y midrange deck, and am trying to maximize that angle. So I guess I need to see if I have a set of Sleight of Hands lying around."
I would imagine then that remand is the card you'd want. Keeps up the decks turbo mode nature and plays the tempo game.
As for sideboards, magma spray could be a consideration. While not great, it's extra exile removal against the gy decks, extra spot removal against the low to the ground deck, and hits Mirran crusader if that tech becomes too problematic
Are you playing 2 Flooded Strands for budget reasons or is there any tech I don't see? Because they are really bad, especially in the version with 2 Blood Crypts. If you can, you should replace them with Scalding Tarns.
I tried Ari's 4 Sleight of Hand list at a weekly tonight, except -2 IoK, +2 Mana Leak, plus some SB differences. It's really good. Really really good. Adding Sleight on top of the other cantrips gives us an incredible amount of velocity and filtering. This means a couple of things.
(Edit: I didn't realize it until I wrote this up, but I was also -1 Push, +1 Tasigur from Ari's list - so 3 Angler, 2 Tasigur)
First, we find important cards faster and more often due to having so much velocity and filtering. Sweepers, artifact hate, more counterspells, planeswalkers, threats, whatever is important. You get to see that 1 of Izzet Staticaster a lot more often with the Sleights. But that last one is very important - a common complaint in this thread is that the deck feels a bit threat light. I've had a build with an extra delve creature for this reason, though it was awkward to support. Well adding 4 Sleights is like adding another threat because you're able to find them so much more often. It's better than that - you can more reliably cast the delve threats because you're putting more cards into the graveyard by cantripping this much. This doesn't just mean more consistent turn 2-3 delve creatures, it also means faster 2nd delve creatures and leaving slightly better graveyards for Snapcaster.
Second, we're playing less lands and have more filtering, so effectively we get card advantage by drawing fewer lands late in the game. This makes it easier to go toe to toe with control decks. The difference here is easy to underestimate, but it has a large impact. While the control player is hitting their 6th, 7th, and 8th land drops, we're cantriping into more business, filtering away those useless lands.
I think this significantly improves the grindy matchups and any matchup where we need a specific hate/sb card, but also have some time to find it. It probably makes us weaker to Chalice, land destruction, and maybe burn or something, but it seems worth it. I'll be playing this shell going forward, except maybe Esper. If Mirran Crusader is everywhere, Path looks a lot better, though there are costs. Anger also looks really good right now. Time to experiment.
"I need to think about it a bit more, but I think I like the idea. His motivations for wanting more cantrips are basically the same as my motivations for wanting Mana Leak - I view this as more of a tempo deck than an attrition-y midrange deck, and am trying to maximize that angle. So I guess I need to see if I have a set of Sleight of Hands lying around."
I would imagine then that remand is the card you'd want. Keeps up the decks turbo mode nature and plays the tempo game.
As for sideboards, magma spray could be a consideration. While not great, it's extra exile removal against the gy decks, extra spot removal against the low to the ground deck, and hits Mirran crusader if that tech becomes too problematic
Remand is really bad vs. all of the 1 mana spells running around. Fatal Push, Death's Shadow, Stubborn Denial, Thoughtseize, IoK, etc. The format has compressed down in terms of mana cost, which makes Remand less of a time walk. Also, Remand is awkward vs. lots of specific cards you really just want to cleanly answer once and for all. Stuff like RiP, Chalice, Siege Rhino, Planeswalkers, etc. It is very good vs delve creatures though. But vs the current metagame it seemed pretty bad in theory when one of my friends tried to convince me to play it. I tried it anyway because there's value in actually finding out, and it was as expected.
Yeah, I've been playing Ari's build in the tournament practice rooms on mtgo, except i'm playing the 4th Stubs over the Countersquall. It's been feeling really smooth so far, I think I'm going to take it through some leagues and see how it goes.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
After looking at the numbers it seems that 6th to 19th place finished at X-2. So technically the reason why there was no Death's Shadow at all in the top 8 was because of bad breaks (or beets). It's why I prefer analyzing top 32's and even for big events like these a top 64 would have been nice since they show a better picture of what the top looks like, rather than some skewed results you would get by only looking at a top 8. Deck is still pretty nuts and would suggest you guys also try out this deck with Sleight of Hands, it's been feeling kind of like a legacy deck at this point.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
I'm testing it, too, using Ari's exact list. Here are few observations so far:
+ Digging for a threat is easier
+ Casting Delve creatures is slightly easier
+ More relevant draws in the late game
+ Helps avoiding dead draws against RiP/Leylines
+ Seems to improve mirror matchup
+ Less land-flooding
- More mulligans
- Runs out of fetch targets faster (+awkward interaction with Thought Scour)
- Runs out of basic lands for Path to Exile faster
- Increased vulnerability to land destruction (D'n'T can easily lock deck out of double red)
- Increased vulnerability to Chalice
- Stressful color balance (two primary colors instead of a preference for black)
- Deck often wants to tap for UU or UB at sorcery speed (feels clunky)
- Tasigur/Snappy/Kommand engine slightly crippled by not having those extra lands
- More likely to lose counterspell battles without the extra lands
- Up to 7 dead cards in g1 against creature-light/creature-less decks in a "44 card deck"
Just theorycrafting, but if we want to make our deck lighter by putting more cantrips, why not Mishra's Bauble? Ignoring it can't be flashbacked with snapy, is there any other reason?
Just theorycrafting, but if we want to make our deck lighter by putting more cantrips, why not Mishra's Bauble? Ignoring it can't be flashbacked with snapy, is there any other reason?
It doesn't really set up your draws, and we're not trying to get delirium online.
It doesn't really set up your draws, and we're not trying to get delirium online.
I agree, but being a free cantrip we can't ask for much hehe!
+ Reduces effective deck size
+ Decent synergy with Thought Scour
+ Sacrifice triggers Revolt
- Makes it harder to decide when to mulligan
- Worse topdeck than any of our cantrips
- Might grow our opponent's Tarmogoyfs
It's OK I think, but it doesn't have the power level of most of the other cards in the deck. It has more synergy with the Jund version.
I used to play the jund version and understood the real synergy there with traverse, but still is a free cantrip... but i guess Sleight of Hands offer a real card selection...
Most decks that are playing goyffs plays some kind of artifact and we can use our delves to eat it, isn't a real issue tbh.
I agree with being a horrible topdeck...None had tried it just for curiosity ? (:
I'm testing it, too, using Ari's exact list. Here are few observations so far:
+ Digging for a threat is easier
+ Casting Delve creatures is slightly easier
+ More relevant draws in the late game
+ Helps avoiding dead draws against RiP/Leylines
+ Seems to improve mirror matchup
+ Less land-flooding
- More mulligans
- Runs out of fetch targets faster (+awkward interaction with Thought Scour)
- Runs out of basic lands for Path to Exile faster
- Increased vulnerability to land destruction (D'n'T can easily lock deck out of double red)
- Increased vulnerability to Chalice
- Stressful color balance (two primary colors instead of a preference for black)
- Deck often wants to tap for UU or UB at sorcery speed (feels clunky)
- Tasigur/Snappy/Kommand engine slightly crippled by not having those extra lands
- More likely to lose counterspell battles without the extra lands
- Up to 7 dead cards in g1 against creature-light/creature-less decks in a "44 card deck"
A lot of these problems are problems with both versions of the deck. The sleight of hand version only runs 1 less fetchable land than the non-sleight version, and you can cut another fetch to add that back in if you want (I'm considering it), so the mana issues aren't intrinsic to playing the Sleights. They run the same number of basics, so the Path point is moot. The color balance / clunky UU/UB issues are issues with the non-sleight version - I don't really see much of a difference here - we've always wanted to fetch Watery Grave with our first two fetches if we could get away with it (not that we always can). The Tasigur/Snapcaster/K Command engine is not crippled by having less lands because Sleight filters - you can draw lands when you want them. Same for counterspell battles. Against control, hit those land drops if you want to. Yes, a higher proportion of your deck is dead vs creature-less decks, but you also have more filtering, so I'm not sure if that shakes on to a net negative or a net positive.
Until now i've played 5-6 times vs JDS, 4colour shadow etc..i dont know if put surgical after sideboarding...hitting a shadow is huge, but im not convinced at all...what's your opinion?
What deck are you playing? Surgical is pretty good against us. Shadow, Snapcaster, Snapcaster targets getting extracted is painful.
A lot of these problems are problems with both versions of the deck. The sleight of hand version only runs 1 less fetchable land than the non-sleight version, and you can cut another fetch to add that back in if you want (I'm considering it), so the mana issues aren't intrinsic to playing the Sleights.
That's what I'm also considering after my experiences with that build.
They run the same number of basics, so the Path point is moot.
I don't agree with you here. Effectively lowering the card count in the deck means more drawing into basics and more fetching basics because there are no shocklands left in the library. This has happened several times already during my testing with Ari's Build. It might go away with a fix to the land base, though. So this might be a related issue.
The color balance / clunky UU/UB issues are issues with the non-sleight version - I don't really see much of a difference here - we've always wanted to fetch Watery Grave with our first two fetches if we could get away with it (not that we always can).
I don't agree again. Maybe you are already used to having the color balance issues because you have been running Mana Leaks instead of Inquisitions for a while. Yes, we nearly always fetch Watery Grave first, but my go-to second land used to be Blood Crypt 75%+ of the time. With Sleight of Hand in the mix, I found myself more often fetching a second Watery Grave or the Steam Vents. Because Thought Scour and Serum Visions don't play well with each other, I was used to spending only one blue mana on a cantrip per turn. Sleight of Hand changed that equation and this is really what I like least about its inclusion. Nearly all of the cards in this deck that actually do something are black, so fetching Steam Vents is not great. Going double Watery Grave seems better, but exposes our two most important lands to the land destruction other decks run (D'n'T, Living End, various UGx decks after sideboarding). In addition, Anger of the Gods demands early double red in many matchups.
The Tasigur/Snapcaster/K Command engine is not crippled by having less lands because Sleight filters - you can draw lands when you want them. Same for counterspell battles. Against control, hit those land drops if you want to. Yes, a higher proportion of your deck is dead vs creature-less decks, but you also have more filtering, so I'm not sure if that shakes on to a net negative or a net positive.
IMHO you are exaggerating the filter capabilities of Sleight of Hand. It just digs two cards deep, and it's not uncommon that both of these cards are not particularly useful. I played UR Storm for a while and Sleight of Hand felt like a much better card in this deck. UR Storm is essentially a combo deck with many little pieces, so the chance of getting a useful piece of Sleight of Hand is very high. In our deck, we are usually looking for a specific kind of card: A threat, protection for our threat, or some kind of removal. Sleight of Hand is one the least helpful blue cantrips in that regard.
Until now i've played 5-6 times vs JDS, 4colour shadow etc..i dont know if put surgical after sideboarding...hitting a shadow is huge, but im not convinced at all...what's your opinion?
What deck are you playing? Surgical is pretty good against us. Shadow, Snapcaster, Snapcaster targets getting extracted is painful.
Im playing standard grixis shadow with no bolt and +1 fatal push +1 stubborn denial.
I have cut the second surgical for dreadbore. My meta at the moment is a lot of shadows, some affinity, dredge, burn, lantern and titanshift...tron is disappeared and eldrazi tron is very rare. thank god control even is almost disappeared.
I would definitely bring it in in the mirror. It's gonna be a grindfest so taking his Snaps / Snap targets or Shadows is gonna be a huge boon.
I would definitely bring it in in the mirror. It's gonna be a grindfest so taking his Snaps / Snap targets or Shadows is gonna be a huge boon.
I don't think Surgical Extraction is that good in the mirror. It costs a card, so it might actually help the opponent to close out the game before it turns into a grindfest. Tasigur and Angler are usually more important than Shadow in the mirror. Snapcaster Mage is important, too, but they can win the game without it. IMHO, Nihil Spellbomb is the go-to graveyard hate in the mirror. Overloading on graveyard hate means less other relevant cards, which isn't a good think. Plus, Surgical Extraction and Nihil Spellbomb are somewhat anti-synergistic.
I would definitely bring it in in the mirror. It's gonna be a grindfest so taking his Snaps / Snap targets or Shadows is gonna be a huge boon.
I don't think Surgical Extraction is that good in the mirror. It costs a card, so it might actually help the opponent to close out the game before it turns into a grindfest. Tasigur and Angler are usually more important than Shadow in the mirror. Snapcaster Mage is important, too, but they can win the game without it. IMHO, Nihil Spellbomb is the go-to graveyard hate in the mirror. Overloading on graveyard hate means less other relevant cards, which isn't a good think. Plus, Surgical Extraction and Nihil Spellbomb are somewhat anti-synergistic.
One thing I've done with the 17 land version is cut the Angers. It's too much of a liability and I always hated fetching double red. KReturn also hits everything in dredge except for amalgams anyway.
When plying this deck I always fetched double Watery Grave first, we only had 5 red spells in the deck max and U and B are way more important than the red. Then again I've also been playing with sleights for a while. The one thing about the deck that I didn't like was drawing a lot of the Kommands and Snaps in early turns when I wasn't ready to use them yet/couldn't. Sleight feels like a much more natural fix to that. Much like legacy decks, cutting lands for cantrips makes the deck more consistent but makes you more vurnerable to Chalice and LD. It's the price you pay. If you really aren't too keen on losing to these kind of decks you should probably stick with the 19 land version which is also a fine choice.
Ultimately I feel this comes down to a matter of preference. Kind of like how years ago there were 2 different camps of storm, we will come to a divide in our builds. Test both versions and see which one you like, you might end up being pleasantly surprised.
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Modern URBSome variant of Death's Shadow URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version) JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / Infect
Ari's list is interesting. His theory behind the decision seems sound. I've been playing some practice games with it and it feels smooth.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I would imagine then that remand is the card you'd want. Keeps up the decks turbo mode nature and plays the tempo game.
As for sideboards, magma spray could be a consideration. While not great, it's extra exile removal against the gy decks, extra spot removal against the low to the ground deck, and hits Mirran crusader if that tech becomes too problematic
Only budget reasons, they are quite bad lol.
(Edit: I didn't realize it until I wrote this up, but I was also -1 Push, +1 Tasigur from Ari's list - so 3 Angler, 2 Tasigur)
First, we find important cards faster and more often due to having so much velocity and filtering. Sweepers, artifact hate, more counterspells, planeswalkers, threats, whatever is important. You get to see that 1 of Izzet Staticaster a lot more often with the Sleights. But that last one is very important - a common complaint in this thread is that the deck feels a bit threat light. I've had a build with an extra delve creature for this reason, though it was awkward to support. Well adding 4 Sleights is like adding another threat because you're able to find them so much more often. It's better than that - you can more reliably cast the delve threats because you're putting more cards into the graveyard by cantripping this much. This doesn't just mean more consistent turn 2-3 delve creatures, it also means faster 2nd delve creatures and leaving slightly better graveyards for Snapcaster.
Second, we're playing less lands and have more filtering, so effectively we get card advantage by drawing fewer lands late in the game. This makes it easier to go toe to toe with control decks. The difference here is easy to underestimate, but it has a large impact. While the control player is hitting their 6th, 7th, and 8th land drops, we're cantriping into more business, filtering away those useless lands.
I think this significantly improves the grindy matchups and any matchup where we need a specific hate/sb card, but also have some time to find it. It probably makes us weaker to Chalice, land destruction, and maybe burn or something, but it seems worth it. I'll be playing this shell going forward, except maybe Esper. If Mirran Crusader is everywhere, Path looks a lot better, though there are costs. Anger also looks really good right now. Time to experiment.
Remand is really bad vs. all of the 1 mana spells running around. Fatal Push, Death's Shadow, Stubborn Denial, Thoughtseize, IoK, etc. The format has compressed down in terms of mana cost, which makes Remand less of a time walk. Also, Remand is awkward vs. lots of specific cards you really just want to cleanly answer once and for all. Stuff like RiP, Chalice, Siege Rhino, Planeswalkers, etc. It is very good vs delve creatures though. But vs the current metagame it seemed pretty bad in theory when one of my friends tried to convince me to play it. I tried it anyway because there's value in actually finding out, and it was as expected.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
+ Digging for a threat is easier
+ Casting Delve creatures is slightly easier
+ More relevant draws in the late game
+ Helps avoiding dead draws against RiP/Leylines
+ Seems to improve mirror matchup
+ Less land-flooding
- More mulligans
- Runs out of fetch targets faster (+awkward interaction with Thought Scour)
- Runs out of basic lands for Path to Exile faster
- Increased vulnerability to land destruction (D'n'T can easily lock deck out of double red)
- Increased vulnerability to Chalice
- Stressful color balance (two primary colors instead of a preference for black)
- Deck often wants to tap for UU or UB at sorcery speed (feels clunky)
- Tasigur/Snappy/Kommand engine slightly crippled by not having those extra lands
- More likely to lose counterspell battles without the extra lands
- Up to 7 dead cards in g1 against creature-light/creature-less decks in a "44 card deck"
It doesn't really set up your draws, and we're not trying to get delirium online.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
+ Decent synergy with Thought Scour
+ Sacrifice triggers Revolt
- Makes it harder to decide when to mulligan
- Worse topdeck than any of our cantrips
- Might grow our opponent's Tarmogoyfs
It's OK I think, but it doesn't have the power level of most of the other cards in the deck. It has more synergy with the Jund version.
I agree, but being a free cantrip we can't ask for much hehe!
I used to play the jund version and understood the real synergy there with traverse, but still is a free cantrip... but i guess Sleight of Hands offer a real card selection...
Most decks that are playing goyffs plays some kind of artifact and we can use our delves to eat it, isn't a real issue tbh.
I agree with being a horrible topdeck...None had tried it just for curiosity ? (:
A lot of these problems are problems with both versions of the deck. The sleight of hand version only runs 1 less fetchable land than the non-sleight version, and you can cut another fetch to add that back in if you want (I'm considering it), so the mana issues aren't intrinsic to playing the Sleights. They run the same number of basics, so the Path point is moot. The color balance / clunky UU/UB issues are issues with the non-sleight version - I don't really see much of a difference here - we've always wanted to fetch Watery Grave with our first two fetches if we could get away with it (not that we always can). The Tasigur/Snapcaster/K Command engine is not crippled by having less lands because Sleight filters - you can draw lands when you want them. Same for counterspell battles. Against control, hit those land drops if you want to. Yes, a higher proportion of your deck is dead vs creature-less decks, but you also have more filtering, so I'm not sure if that shakes on to a net negative or a net positive.
What deck are you playing? Surgical is pretty good against us. Shadow, Snapcaster, Snapcaster targets getting extracted is painful.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I would definitely bring it in in the mirror. It's gonna be a grindfest so taking his Snaps / Snap targets or Shadows is gonna be a huge boon.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Here is my current list. Pretty stock at the moment. Would it be completely crazy to switch the K Commands and the Surgical Extractions?
Agree with all of this.
When plying this deck I always fetched double Watery Grave first, we only had 5 red spells in the deck max and U and B are way more important than the red. Then again I've also been playing with sleights for a while. The one thing about the deck that I didn't like was drawing a lot of the Kommands and Snaps in early turns when I wasn't ready to use them yet/couldn't. Sleight feels like a much more natural fix to that. Much like legacy decks, cutting lands for cantrips makes the deck more consistent but makes you more vurnerable to Chalice and LD. It's the price you pay. If you really aren't too keen on losing to these kind of decks you should probably stick with the 19 land version which is also a fine choice.
Ultimately I feel this comes down to a matter of preference. Kind of like how years ago there were 2 different camps of storm, we will come to a divide in our builds. Test both versions and see which one you like, you might end up being pleasantly surprised.
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Blood Crypt
1 Swamp
1 Island
Creatures
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Thought Scour
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Stubborn Denial
4 Fatal Push
1 Terminate
1 Dismember
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Stubborn Denial
3 Ceremonious Rejecttion
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Temur Battle Rage
URB Some variant of Death's Shadow
URB Grixis Control (Chapin Version)
JFM Storm / Treasure Cruise Delver / Splinter Twin / InfectCommander/EDH
This pile of cards when I feel like it
Death's Shadow discord link