Well I'm doing good with it so far (I play only only atm).
Yesterday I beat Bant Eldrazi and Abzan Company (very close games) and Affinity today. Game 1 was easy; he had slow hand and I had enough removal to deal with his threats and then finish the game with Goyf and DS. Second game I had a perfect opening hand with 2 copies of Ancient Grudge, K. Command and LtLH but Blood Moon almost got me. I know some of you said that BM isn't that good against this decks but after playing this game I would say it's just the opposite. I was lucky that I had a green fetch in play and cracked it in response fetching for basic Forest. After being on green mana for a while I was lucky again and top decked Traverse and went for basic Swamp. After that it was easy. That said if I didn't have green fetch in play I could concede on the spot and that with such a good starting hand.
Maybe my metas are too fair, I have not seen the good matchups for me as a Shadow player
Has there been an established guide for which color combination of Death's Shadow works best in certain situations? For example, does Jund DS work best in an open meta, compared to Grixis DS which is more suited for control? Or if Esper DS wins out the DS mirrors?
Nope, way too early for the archetype do have a clear cut winner or deep articles
Has anyone considered Noxious revival in the 75? It can help us hit land drops as we can recycle fetches, but it also helps us return anything from our gy at instant speed and plays well with DS. It also has the splash effect of being able to control our opponents top deck and being good against anything that targets in the gy like Scooze or Goryo's vengeance
i started to play the deck a few months ago, and readed all the contents of this forum and let me add my 2cents
The white splash is a must :
i cant tell you how many games i won with lingering tokens when they had paths or push or decay and bum, tokens baby!
also, doing ranger for 2 DS is nuts, incredible nuts
The sb need a meta call, coz sometimes u need to be able to play another game, like just shifting to 4 color midrange with lingering and planeswalkers and, anger/explosives/ more walkers
after all, the deck IS amazing IS powerfull and the main deck should be stable with 4 of all 3 pieces of combo(1 rampager 2 tbr ) 2 lilis old school and 3 tarfire
played against sultai midrange control, affinity, merfolks, dredge and ad nauseam
the games against merfolks where challenging, i dont know if its a good or bad matchup but its definitely hard to play
grim flayer was great because even though its for the grindy matchups i could bring him in against dredge and nauseam alongside more relevant interaction to be fully redundant on the pressure plus disruption plan
i only drew whispers and witness once against the sultai deck and did what you expect them to do, wich is good enough for me considering the other options
i prefer last hope instead of of the veil because its a lot easier to generate card advantage with it and its good against cards that generate multiple chumpblockers like eldrazy sky spawner, master of waves, kitchen finks, etc wich sometimes gives them enough time
the 2 terminates were a concesion to the grixis and eldrazi decks, i dodged them but they become easier when you can kill their creatures. on the other hand i would have liked to have decay against nauseam and affinity, you cant have it all
i think 2 tarfire its the right number, at least for now. it does very little
Jund is the most fine tuned right now. The other variations all have strong potential though. Jund has the most consistency with setting up delirium.
Compared to the white splash Version, how is jund getting delirium more consistantly as you stated? I don't see a significant difference in consistancy to get delirium here actually.
Has there been an established guide for which color combination of Death's Shadow works best in certain situations? For example, does Jund DS work best in an open meta, compared to Grixis DS which is more suited for control? Or if Esper DS wins out the DS mirrors?
Jund version is the best in general so it should be the best choice for an open meta. Against grindy decks and in the "mirror" Grixis and Esper are better because they have better removal and Snapcaster Mage (Esper also has Lingering Souls.Grixis also has delve creatures which matches well with our removal. Apart from mirror and other grindy decks I think Jund version is the best because it's the most consistent and Goyf is Goyf.
What makes you think jund is the best version in general? Both have up and downsides which are equally relevant. Also in an open field, there is no proof that jund is just better I think. Both versions do equally well right now, so that makes me wander why.
So since this deck has been around for a few weeks now, is there a MU guide available somewhere?
I would really love to see how this deck's win percentages against the field are. Can some players who are experienced with the deck help me out here?
Main interest are obviously the Tier 1 decks (Burn, Bant Eldrazi, Affinity, Abzan, Eldrazi Tron, RG Valakut, Gx Tron) but Tier 2 is also interesting, (Jund, Grixis, Merfolk, Dredge, Lantern Control,Abzan Company, RW Prison etc.). Can some more experienced DSJ players help me out here?
(also sorry if that request has been asked already, didn't find any answers with the search funtion)
@Mcpatches and @Ayiluss oh nevermind, in fact i didn't realize you were talking about grixis vs, jund in general. I thought the debate was about regular jund vs. White splash jund.
@Mcpatches and @Ayiluss oh nevermind, in fact i didn't realize you were talking about grixis vs, jund in general. I thought the debate was about regular jund vs. White splash jund.
Ah fine then. They are both good and both have downsides and upsides. I currently play without white splash and I'm fine with it but it's of course way to early to tell which one is better. I think they're pretty close and as said both have they pros and cons.
Yeah, I definitely agree on that. If regular Jund by some way will develop to be the slightly better version, the white splash version still would offer some great tech for a specific metacall. From what I have observed, white splash version has a better game vs. combo and midrange decks basically. Regular Jund is better vs. big mana and more consistant in general. Idk how to feel vs. aggro though (like Affinity). Souls is a beating to most of those, but LtLH (which generally sees more play in regular Jund) is also a beating as well as Anger of the Gods. Hard to decide on that one I think.
@rayo I am gathering information on a sideboard guide right now, its about halfway done, since I realized that there generally is no guide on that yet. I hope I can post it soon, to start discussing and improving it with you guys (obviously its only a draft, since the deck is still evolving).
Played against Grixis Shadow, turns out Lingering Souls is a total beating I have to say.
I expect that. I face two of them so far and didn't end up good. They were probably the only matches where I really missed Lingering Souls. Straight Jund version definitely has problems against Grixis Shadow although white splash doesn't make it a good splash but it should be better.
Did you win btw?
Oh yeah, Souls pretty much won it for me. My opponent had tasigur and huge Death's Shadow being on 4 life, I had 2 1/1 death shadows and a tarmogoyf unable to attack, so I got Souls, getting the tokens and taking him down to 2 life next turn and finish him off with KCommand. Souls is just makes their removal really bad and just doesn't care about their hard to remove threats like Tasigur.
Yup, I played against Esper Shadow the deck felt completely designed to beat Jund
I'm thinking that lingering souls is going to have to be used again if decks are going to be running heavy removal spells, it may have been successful in the next few tournaments because people were still running combo/ramp decks
Are you guys fitting in 3 or 4 souls in the SB? Running Ranger?
I'm thinking DSJ should run the Ranger and Lingering Souls but kinda stop there on running white in the sideboard
I always ran white and didn't have any issues with it yet, only benefits. Freeing up some SB space for other important matchups, if midrange and removal heavy decks aren't that present, is something which I understand, but for my tastes, including white is just so easy beneficial. In my opinion, this ways out the potential mana issues you can have.
I play 3 Souls, 1 Ranger and 1 Ethersworn Canonist. The reason for Ethersworn Canonist is due to Ad Nauseam and Living End being quite popular in my meta now and Living End, as it turns out, is a very hard matchup.
From this article I really like dropping the Forest and adding another Overgrown Tomb. Actually, that would make the white splash much more smoothed out, I think I am going to try it this way.
I am not sure on Tarfires yet, I definitely agree on the author with Tarfire being very weak on its own, but delirium and goyf pumps seem still relevant enough to keep it. I can see going down to 2 copies and having a second Abrupt Decay MB, as a catch all.
So I changed: -1 Forest adding 1 Overgrown Tomb, -1 Wooded Foothills and -1 Marsh Flats to add 2 more Polluted Delta for having more black fetches (Could still use Marsh Flats though, just wanted 3 equal copies of Polluted Delta in my deck), -1 Tarfire and -1 Ghor to add Liliana, the Last Hope and 1 Decay. So this is what I am up with to test:
@Spsiegel1987 For Grixis Control I think I like cutting TBR/Ghor and also Tarfires and probably some Fatal Push/Decays since their threats are mostly delve creatures. I would bring in Souls, Surgicals, extra GY hate (if in SB), Ranger and Maelstrom Pulse. I like keeping discard in here actually, snagging snappys and the hand information is really helpful on how to go on for that matchup.
-2 TBR
-1 Ghor (if in deck)
-3 Tarfires
-2 Decays (if only 1 MB, then cut 1 Push)
+3 Lingering Souls
+2 Surgical
+1 Nihil Spellbomb (if in SB)
+1 Ranger of Eos
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
For UW Control I would keep Pushes due to Celestial Colonnade. KCommand is not great here basically due to path. So I guess this can be cut. Other than that I would board similar like for Grixis. Except I would bring in Fulminator for Colonnade again.
-2 TBR
-1 Ghor (if in SB)
-3 Tarfires
-2 Decays
-2 KCommand
+3 Lingering Souls
+2 Surgical
+1 Nihil Spellbomb (if in SB)
+1 Ranger of Eos
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Fulminator Mage
For Abzan, cutting TBR and Ghor makes sense. Next KCommand is not at its best, as well as some number of IOKs. I am thinking cutting 2 IOK is worth it. I would bring in Souls, Ranger, Push, Maelstrom Pulse, and if space left some Fulminator for their manlands.
For Abzan I am not sure about Tarfire. I think it can be very useful in hitting Nobles, Grim Flayers and Souls Tokens, as well as dealing with Gideons and Oozes right away sometimes. I feel Tarfire is still worth it to keep.
Something like this is what my plan is right now for these matchups. Now if you cut Tarfires you gotta adjust a little bit, but I think the basic idea remains the same.
Cutting the forest make us weaker to blood moon and PTE. Also, I don't understand the hate on tarfire. It kill a lot of little creature, kill mana dork early game, feed the goyf, accelerate the delirium... Why play red if you only play 1 tarfire and 1 TBR x)
The author plays actually 2 TBR and 2 KCommand as well.
However, I think a good approach is to run 2 TBR, 2 Tarfire and 2 KCommand. This is enough reason to run red in my opinion. Also we have the option of Anger or Kozilek's Return if needed.
I was going to run Junk tonight for modern but after seeing this article I'm going to play a very similar 75. I've been running into too many attrition decks making Junk feel better. I also cut the white out and I was just struggling bad.
If tonight I get blown out by more removal heavy decks I'm going to have to concede to playing Junk in a more attrition heavy list.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Maybe my metas are too fair, I have not seen the good matchups for me as a Shadow player
Nope, way too early for the archetype do have a clear cut winner or deep articles
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
i started to play the deck a few months ago, and readed all the contents of this forum and let me add my 2cents
The white splash is a must :
i cant tell you how many games i won with lingering tokens when they had paths or push or decay and bum, tokens baby!
also, doing ranger for 2 DS is nuts, incredible nuts
The sb need a meta call, coz sometimes u need to be able to play another game, like just shifting to 4 color midrange with lingering and planeswalkers and, anger/explosives/ more walkers
after all, the deck IS amazing IS powerfull and the main deck should be stable with 4 of all 3 pieces of combo(1 rampager 2 tbr ) 2 lilis old school and 3 tarfire
thanks for all the data guys =)!
4 thoughtseize
4 fatal push
2 tarfire
2 terminate
2 kolaghan's command
2 liliana, the last hope
1 ghor-clan rampager
1 temur battle rage
4 tarmogoyf
4 death's shadow
4 traverse the ulvenwald
4 mishra's bauble
4 street wraith
4 bloodstained mire
4 wooded foothills
2 blood crypt
1 overgrown tomb
1 stomping ground
1 swamp
1 forest
side
2 nihil spellbomb
1 whispers of emrakul
1 pyroclasm
2 collective brutality
1 destructive revelry
2 ancient grudge
2 grim flayer
1 eternal witness
3 fulminator mage
played against sultai midrange control, affinity, merfolks, dredge and ad nauseam
the games against merfolks where challenging, i dont know if its a good or bad matchup but its definitely hard to play
grim flayer was great because even though its for the grindy matchups i could bring him in against dredge and nauseam alongside more relevant interaction to be fully redundant on the pressure plus disruption plan
i only drew whispers and witness once against the sultai deck and did what you expect them to do, wich is good enough for me considering the other options
i prefer last hope instead of of the veil because its a lot easier to generate card advantage with it and its good against cards that generate multiple chumpblockers like eldrazy sky spawner, master of waves, kitchen finks, etc wich sometimes gives them enough time
the 2 terminates were a concesion to the grixis and eldrazi decks, i dodged them but they become easier when you can kill their creatures. on the other hand i would have liked to have decay against nauseam and affinity, you cant have it all
i think 2 tarfire its the right number, at least for now. it does very little
Compared to the white splash Version, how is jund getting delirium more consistantly as you stated? I don't see a significant difference in consistancy to get delirium here actually.
What makes you think jund is the best version in general? Both have up and downsides which are equally relevant. Also in an open field, there is no proof that jund is just better I think. Both versions do equally well right now, so that makes me wander why.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
I would really love to see how this deck's win percentages against the field are. Can some players who are experienced with the deck help me out here?
Main interest are obviously the Tier 1 decks (Burn, Bant Eldrazi, Affinity, Abzan, Eldrazi Tron, RG Valakut, Gx Tron) but Tier 2 is also interesting, (Jund, Grixis, Merfolk, Dredge, Lantern Control,Abzan Company, RW Prison etc.). Can some more experienced DSJ players help me out here?
(also sorry if that request has been asked already, didn't find any answers with the search funtion)
Yeah, I definitely agree on that. If regular Jund by some way will develop to be the slightly better version, the white splash version still would offer some great tech for a specific metacall. From what I have observed, white splash version has a better game vs. combo and midrange decks basically. Regular Jund is better vs. big mana and more consistant in general. Idk how to feel vs. aggro though (like Affinity). Souls is a beating to most of those, but LtLH (which generally sees more play in regular Jund) is also a beating as well as Anger of the Gods. Hard to decide on that one I think.
@rayo I am gathering information on a sideboard guide right now, its about halfway done, since I realized that there generally is no guide on that yet. I hope I can post it soon, to start discussing and improving it with you guys (obviously its only a draft, since the deck is still evolving).
Oh yeah, Souls pretty much won it for me. My opponent had tasigur and huge Death's Shadow being on 4 life, I had 2 1/1 death shadows and a tarmogoyf unable to attack, so I got Souls, getting the tokens and taking him down to 2 life next turn and finish him off with KCommand. Souls is just makes their removal really bad and just doesn't care about their hard to remove threats like Tasigur.
Very good article!
I'm thinking that lingering souls is going to have to be used again if decks are going to be running heavy removal spells, it may have been successful in the next few tournaments because people were still running combo/ramp decks
Are you guys fitting in 3 or 4 souls in the SB? Running Ranger?
I'm thinking DSJ should run the Ranger and Lingering Souls but kinda stop there on running white in the sideboard
I play 3 Souls, 1 Ranger and 1 Ethersworn Canonist. The reason for Ethersworn Canonist is due to Ad Nauseam and Living End being quite popular in my meta now and Living End, as it turns out, is a very hard matchup.
From this article I really like dropping the Forest and adding another Overgrown Tomb. Actually, that would make the white splash much more smoothed out, I think I am going to try it this way.
I am not sure on Tarfires yet, I definitely agree on the author with Tarfire being very weak on its own, but delirium and goyf pumps seem still relevant enough to keep it. I can see going down to 2 copies and having a second Abrupt Decay MB, as a catch all.
So I changed: -1 Forest adding 1 Overgrown Tomb, -1 Wooded Foothills and -1 Marsh Flats to add 2 more Polluted Delta for having more black fetches (Could still use Marsh Flats though, just wanted 3 equal copies of Polluted Delta in my deck), -1 Tarfire and -1 Ghor to add Liliana, the Last Hope and 1 Decay. So this is what I am up with to test:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Godless Shrine
1 Swamp
Creatures [12]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Fatal Push
2 Tarfire
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Temur Battle Rage
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Lingering Souls
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fatal Push
I'm going to play the white splash, I've been running into way too many heavy removal decks
Does anyone have a sideboard plan for
Grixis Control
UW Control
Abzan midrange
Like, am I cutting the IOK's and Battle-rage, aren't I too clogged up on 3 drops? What about the surgicals?
-2 TBR
-1 Ghor (if in deck)
-3 Tarfires
-2 Decays (if only 1 MB, then cut 1 Push)
+3 Lingering Souls
+2 Surgical
+1 Nihil Spellbomb (if in SB)
+1 Ranger of Eos
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
For UW Control I would keep Pushes due to Celestial Colonnade. KCommand is not great here basically due to path. So I guess this can be cut. Other than that I would board similar like for Grixis. Except I would bring in Fulminator for Colonnade again.
-2 TBR
-1 Ghor (if in SB)
-3 Tarfires
-2 Decays
-2 KCommand
+3 Lingering Souls
+2 Surgical
+1 Nihil Spellbomb (if in SB)
+1 Ranger of Eos
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+2 Fulminator Mage
For Abzan, cutting TBR and Ghor makes sense. Next KCommand is not at its best, as well as some number of IOKs. I am thinking cutting 2 IOK is worth it. I would bring in Souls, Ranger, Push, Maelstrom Pulse, and if space left some Fulminator for their manlands.
For Abzan I am not sure about Tarfire. I think it can be very useful in hitting Nobles, Grim Flayers and Souls Tokens, as well as dealing with Gideons and Oozes right away sometimes. I feel Tarfire is still worth it to keep.
-2 TBR
-1 Ghor
-2 KCommand
-2 IOK
+3 Souls
+1 Ranger
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Push
+1 Fulminator Mage
Something like this is what my plan is right now for these matchups. Now if you cut Tarfires you gotta adjust a little bit, but I think the basic idea remains the same.
The author plays actually 2 TBR and 2 KCommand as well.
However, I think a good approach is to run 2 TBR, 2 Tarfire and 2 KCommand. This is enough reason to run red in my opinion. Also we have the option of Anger or Kozilek's Return if needed.
If tonight I get blown out by more removal heavy decks I'm going to have to concede to playing Junk in a more attrition heavy list.