i think the deck its better with just 3 colors, but since my meta is full of B/G/x midrange and U/x/x control the white splash helps a lot
the options in jund colors are a bit lacking, strangleroot geist and geralf's messenger go to hard on the mana and kitchen finks is a nonbo with shadow, maybe sprouting thrinax as mentioned above its the solution
Question for you all: I haven't been able to test lists much lately, but after scanning through this thread, it sounds like straight Jund is generally doing better than the white splash. From what I've read, it sounds like that's because Lingering souls isn't as good as Anger, but it seems like Ranger of Eos is still incredible. Would a 1-2 card white splash work as well as I think it would?
Having access to Ranger and potentially Cannonist seems extremely powerful and I think the only real deckbuilding cost would be cutting a fetch for a second Stomping Ground, making the manabase 4x Catacombs, 4x Bloodstained Mire, 2x Wooded Foothills, 1x Marsh Flats, 1x Godless Shrine, 2x Stomping Ground, 1 Overgrown Tomb, 1x Blood Crypt, 2x Basics. Thoughts?
I was trying this deck out this week and wondering this as well. Souls seems like it would solve tough grindy matchups, and adding white gives Eos as well as access to Orzhov Charm, which is actually really good here. Mode 2 clears a blocker and powers up DS, Mode 3 brings DS back at instant speed at their EoT.
It would make the mana base greedier, but who cares? If they resolve a blood moon you're done anyway if you're playing Jund, so why not go 4 colors? Fetches and a lack of aversion to lifeloss make it trivial in terms of always having the right colors at the right times.
I like the idea of Dismember in this deck and I will give it a try. It works nicely with Death's Shadow itself and is able to kill bigger creatures than other removal we play (this mainly applies to Bant Eldrazi and Reality Smasher and Drowner of Hope) and being able to kill creatures with cmc 3 or 4 without revolt is good as well although achieving revolt with this deck shouldn't be hard for this deck.
I think this deck is pretty tight with slots sleaving us with little room for tweaking. I think in order to fit in Dismember in particular the only card to cut is Tarfire which seems the most players playing Dismember did. I'm not happy to do it because it has quite unique role in this deck by helping with delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald and making Goyf bigger but I think it's still the worst card in the deck. At least this is what I'm going to do. Currently I have 3 copies of Tarfire so I'll cut one for Dismember and I think playing 2 of them only should still be fine.
I am not sure if you should cut tarfires for it, due to possible delirium issues. I would either cut push or temur battle rage.
In your opinion, what are the DS Jund's bad matches? The deck just seems OP against most of the field.
Bant Eldrazi is pretty hard. Then, the normal Jund version has problems in GBx mirrors and Grixis Control, wheras the white splash is probably a bit less good against Big Mana.
I'm not sure about dismember. On one hand, it hits bigger guys, but on the other, how often does it get turned off or become a 3 drop removal? Also, do we drop a push for it? Or a tarfire?
I would drop a Push or TBR I guess. Not sure 2 Tarfires would be still enough.
Question for you all: I haven't been able to test lists much lately, but after scanning through this thread, it sounds like straight Jund is generally doing better than the white splash.
Where did you read that Jund is straight up better? According to my opinion, both have upsides and downsides, and no version is just "better" than the other.
Bant Eldrazi, Dredge, I think ad nauseum is a race, Hate Bears can be bad if they have thalia and get displacer online, Abzan. Path is a beating vs us, not to mention they have access to blessed alliance and Devour Flesh, which CAN be a blow out. There's also cards that hurt us a lot like RIP that can slow us a lot. We want to end the games fast. Not give them a chance to develop their board. Strategies that go wide fast or can mostly ignore us are good.
Someone was mentioning dropping an ancient grudge from the sb, Do you think replacing it with a second wipe would be smart? I feel like I really want that wipe against go wide strategies like Zoo and Dredge with it being ok against affinity. Any thoughts on this?
I'd rather cut push instead of Tarfire, you're really asking to see that card less, burn your face, burn your opponent, make Goyf bigger, and make delirium more consistent.
Tarfire isn't a fantastic card, but I think it helps anchor this deck and cutting it to 2 feels like a bad idea, you're really relying on those baubles making your Goyf 5/6, wouldn't you rather make him a more consistent 6/7?
If you're expecting less combo decks, maybe cutting the Battle-Rage works. Temur/Ghor has won me a ton of games, I'm really surprised to hear people say they don't have the opportunity to do so.
Another point. I've seen some people playing painful truths in the sb. I know drawing 3 is good, but would it maybe be better to run night's whisper or SiB instead. It's one card less, but it's also one mana less meaning you can cast it sooner and SiB doubles as a shock to finish your opponent off.
Another point. I've seen some people playing painful truths in the sb. I know drawing 3 is good, but would it maybe be better to run night's whisper or SiB instead. It's one card less, but it's also one mana less meaning you can cast it sooner and SiB doubles as a shock to finish your opponent off.
I think not. You would bring this card in grindy matchups, where you really want the extra card over the lower manacost.
Did gauntlet testing last night against bogles, burn, bant eldrazi, delver and had a rough time of it! Lost every match 1-2
- For the first time playing the deck I had a hard time remembering my bauble triggers. For three whole matches I missed every single trigger, maybe 7 baubles. I was tired after a long day at work, but I'm not a bad magic player.... It felt really awkward honestly, I'm worried about doing this at the GP over the summer. At one point I even said "right I'm not forgetting the trigger this time" and then I thoughtseize my opponent, got bogged down in decisions, and completely forgot the trigger.
- Did the wrong thing with liliana a couple of times. This goes back to Jund generally I.e. How to utilise lili best, but these ended up being win/loss decisions and I made the wrong one. Felt bad.
- made a couple of cringe-worthy bad attacks. I know this is par for the course and you can't predict everything, but I've noticed that in this deck, often with only one or two key threats, you are very susceptible to blowouts if you attack poorly. The low life total makes it much more acute.
Overall I felt like I'd stepped back maybe 10 years in skill, I felt awkward and made avoidable mistakes, which honestly I'm not used to. I pride myself in being a tight player and this deck seems to be really difficult to play in a way I'm not used to, I really find it quite perplexing.
One thing that really impressed me though, was varolz out of the sideboard. Oh my God, it was glorious. Got me some brilliant wins and really did some work; so much that I've moved him maindeck. Dismember has been bumped and varolz is the new singleton bit of spice in my otherwise stock list.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
Did gauntlet testing last night against bogles, burn, bant eldrazi, delver and had a rough time of it! Lost every match 1-2
- For the first time playing the deck I had a hard time remembering my bauble triggers. For three whole matches I missed every single trigger, maybe 7 baubles. I was tired after a long day at work, but I'm not a bad magic player.... It felt really awkward honestly, I'm worried about doing this at the GP over the summer. At one point I even said "right I'm not forgetting the trigger this time" and then I thoughtseize my opponent, got bogged down in decisions, and completely forgot the trigger.
- Did the wrong thing with liliana a couple of times. This goes back to Jund generally I.e. How to utilise lili best, but these ended up being win/loss decisions and I made the wrong one. Felt bad.
- made a couple of cringe-worthy bad attacks. I know this is par for the course and you can't predict everything, but I've noticed that in this deck, often with only one or two key threats, you are very susceptible to blowouts if you attack poorly. The low life total makes it much more acute.
Overall I felt like I'd stepped back maybe 10 years in skill, I felt awkward and made avoidable mistakes, which honestly I'm not used to. I pride myself in being a tight player and this deck seems to be really difficult to play in a way I'm not used to, I really find it quite perplexing.
One thing that really impressed me though, was varolz out of the sideboard. Oh my God, it was glorious. Got me some brilliant wins and really did some work; so much that I've moved him maindeck. Dismember has been bumped and varolz is the new singleton bit of spice in my otherwise stock list.
I can understand that, I had similar situations like that when I played regular Jund in the past. Death's Shadow Jund works similarily to regular Jund, where a focused mind is absolutely crucial. If you aren't focused the whole time, its much harder to win with this deck. Like you said, playing Death's Shadow includes extra stuff like using Baubles/Fetches/Street Wraith correct, which can often times screw you up. Its important to not get discouraged through this. As it happened to me in the past, I often used to judge my deck configuration or even my deck choice for performing bad. Then I changed the deck configuration and thought it would work better. But often this was not the problem, it was mainly due to me not being able to focus during games. Its important to realize this, and I think, this is a property of a great player, which you seem to have. I often hear other people complain about they having bad luck and me having great luck when they lost against me. But when someone starts complaining about bad luck, you know something is wrong.
Also, I see the price of Pain's reward rising. Is it played better than Painful Truths?
Pain's Reward has been going up lately, didn't really make the connection that the reason why is because of Death's Shadow style decks now. I'd imagine that this a toss up with Painful Truths because I like both. Pain's Reward could be better as a way to burn an opponent that doesn't know what is happening.
I'm running the Caterpillar over the second Ancient Grudge because I want a tutorable way to deal with Leyline and Worship. I settled on Caterpillar over Reclamation Sage for a few reasons:
Caterpillar is easier to loop back with Liliana, the Last Hope and K-Command because it dies as part of it's effect.
You can break up the mana investment required to destroy something (1 + 2 for Caterpillar vs 3 for Sage), which seems relevant in a deck that doesn't play many mana-producing lands.
1 CMC cost meant that I could play it, then hold up mana to either activate it or play a different removal spell. This was relevant in a few places because it made it harder for my opponent to commit to a line profitably.
It's more proactive than Sage.
Obviously Caterpillar isn't without downsides. If I wanted to Traverse and cast it to blow something up I needed access to three green mana, vs two for Sage. Sage can beat down after it blows something up, and Caterpillar doesn't really provide much of a clock.
I also like that the catepillar can blow things up on their turn but because it's not an EtB effect it can be disrupted. How often do you find it being destroyed when you don't have the green mana to sac it?
EDIT: would Qasali Pridemage be even more restrictive if you're splashing white? It would be easier to sacrifice and provide a little more threat until then. Just a thought...
Also, for Bauble drawing triggers you could always place a die or coin on top of your deck to remind you to draw an extra card.
Yeah I think its kinda bad. Usually the opponent has more life to gamble with than we have and I value 4 cards over life much higher most of the time. I think its a little bit too cute. Haven't played it though.
Also, for Bauble drawing triggers you could always place a die or coin on top of your deck to remind you to draw an extra card.
While this is a brilliant way to avoid missing your own upkeep triggers (before you draw) It's not great in your opponent's upkeep because you never normally interact with your own deck in their upkeep. I tried the counter on my library trick last night, and while I was tired and had low blood sugar (which was probably the main reason for missing triggers) the counter was zero help whatsoever. I might start placing the baubles at a jaunty angle and on top of my graveyard if I still have a trigger waiting. Something similar to the way people mark creatures in dredge that have delayed triggers.
Would also like to reiterate how great varolz was for me last night in testing, giving me what few wins I could scrape together in my tired state all by himself. Very good with battle rage as well (as you'd imagine).
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I also like that the catepillar can blow things up on their turn but because it's not an EtB effect it can be disrupted. How often do you find it being destroyed when you don't have the green mana to sac it?
EDIT: would Qasali Pridemage be even more restrictive if you're splashing white? It would be easier to sacrifice and provide a little more threat until then. Just a thought...
If I was concerned about it being blown up I would hold it back, there were some games when I had to just jam and hope for the best, and some games where I ran it out knowing that it would die because I didn't want to have to worry about dying to multiple Galvanic Blast. Overall, he's as vulnerable to removal as you make him. I did find myself fetching green lands more aggressively towards the end of the night so that I could Traverse for the worm and still blow something up in the same turn.
Pridemage is definitely something to consider, though my concern would be that fetching Godless Shrine has a very real downside, in that it's essentially a Swamp with minor upside. I could see myself boarding in Lingering Souls against Affinity anyway, so maybe it's not as a big a deal and is just a strict upgrade from the Caterpillar. I'm not on the white splash right now, but if I make the switch I'll probably try out Pridemage instead of Caterpillar for a bit.
I'm continuing to brainstorm how to deal with removal-heavy decks, has anybody tried out Bitterblossom? We would have to adjust our play pattern to be a little less aggressive with our life total in the early game, but it's an obnoxious card to deal with and Grixis has no way to remove it once it resolves. I was running it in traditional Jund when Grixis rose to prominence in 2015 and had great results with it in that matchup.
Also, for Bauble drawing triggers you could always place a die or coin on top of your deck to remind you to draw an extra card.
While this is a brilliant way to avoid missing your own upkeep triggers (before you draw) It's not great in your opponent's upkeep because you never normally interact with your own deck in their upkeep. I tried the counter on my library trick last night, and while I was tired and had low blood sugar (which was probably the main reason for missing triggers) the counter was zero help whatsoever. I might start placing the baubles at a jaunty angle and on top of my graveyard if I still have a trigger waiting. Something similar to the way people mark creatures in dredge that have delayed triggers.
Would also like to reiterate how great varolz was for me last night in testing, giving me what few wins I could scrape together in my tired state all by himself. Very good with battle rage as well (as you'd imagine).
That's why you put a die on top of your opponent's library
i tryed bitterblossom and its to slow, you play it on turn 2 and on turn 4 you attack for 1, also the life loss matters, we want to drop between 7-9 life and stop right there unless the coast its clear to go for the kill
i liked your idea of playing thrinax, unlike lingering souls its soft to counters, discard and path, but every threat that we play in this slot will be soft to those as well. strangleroot geist and geralf's messenger are other options but thrinax is a lot easyer to cast
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the options in jund colors are a bit lacking, strangleroot geist and geralf's messenger go to hard on the mana and kitchen finks is a nonbo with shadow, maybe sprouting thrinax as mentioned above its the solution
I was trying this deck out this week and wondering this as well. Souls seems like it would solve tough grindy matchups, and adding white gives Eos as well as access to Orzhov Charm, which is actually really good here. Mode 2 clears a blocker and powers up DS, Mode 3 brings DS back at instant speed at their EoT.
It would make the mana base greedier, but who cares? If they resolve a blood moon you're done anyway if you're playing Jund, so why not go 4 colors? Fetches and a lack of aversion to lifeloss make it trivial in terms of always having the right colors at the right times.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I am not sure if you should cut tarfires for it, due to possible delirium issues. I would either cut push or temur battle rage.
Bant Eldrazi is pretty hard. Then, the normal Jund version has problems in GBx mirrors and Grixis Control, wheras the white splash is probably a bit less good against Big Mana.
I would drop a Push or TBR I guess. Not sure 2 Tarfires would be still enough.
I guess placing the card face-up on top of your library is a possibility.
Where did you read that Jund is straight up better? According to my opinion, both have upsides and downsides, and no version is just "better" than the other.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Tarfire isn't a fantastic card, but I think it helps anchor this deck and cutting it to 2 feels like a bad idea, you're really relying on those baubles making your Goyf 5/6, wouldn't you rather make him a more consistent 6/7?
If you're expecting less combo decks, maybe cutting the Battle-Rage works. Temur/Ghor has won me a ton of games, I'm really surprised to hear people say they don't have the opportunity to do so.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
I think not. You would bring this card in grindy matchups, where you really want the extra card over the lower manacost.
- For the first time playing the deck I had a hard time remembering my bauble triggers. For three whole matches I missed every single trigger, maybe 7 baubles. I was tired after a long day at work, but I'm not a bad magic player.... It felt really awkward honestly, I'm worried about doing this at the GP over the summer. At one point I even said "right I'm not forgetting the trigger this time" and then I thoughtseize my opponent, got bogged down in decisions, and completely forgot the trigger.
- Did the wrong thing with liliana a couple of times. This goes back to Jund generally I.e. How to utilise lili best, but these ended up being win/loss decisions and I made the wrong one. Felt bad.
- made a couple of cringe-worthy bad attacks. I know this is par for the course and you can't predict everything, but I've noticed that in this deck, often with only one or two key threats, you are very susceptible to blowouts if you attack poorly. The low life total makes it much more acute.
Overall I felt like I'd stepped back maybe 10 years in skill, I felt awkward and made avoidable mistakes, which honestly I'm not used to. I pride myself in being a tight player and this deck seems to be really difficult to play in a way I'm not used to, I really find it quite perplexing.
One thing that really impressed me though, was varolz out of the sideboard. Oh my God, it was glorious. Got me some brilliant wins and really did some work; so much that I've moved him maindeck. Dismember has been bumped and varolz is the new singleton bit of spice in my otherwise stock list.
I can understand that, I had similar situations like that when I played regular Jund in the past. Death's Shadow Jund works similarily to regular Jund, where a focused mind is absolutely crucial. If you aren't focused the whole time, its much harder to win with this deck. Like you said, playing Death's Shadow includes extra stuff like using Baubles/Fetches/Street Wraith correct, which can often times screw you up. Its important to not get discouraged through this. As it happened to me in the past, I often used to judge my deck configuration or even my deck choice for performing bad. Then I changed the deck configuration and thought it would work better. But often this was not the problem, it was mainly due to me not being able to focus during games. Its important to realize this, and I think, this is a property of a great player, which you seem to have. I often hear other people complain about they having bad luck and me having great luck when they lost against me. But when someone starts complaining about bad luck, you know something is wrong.
Pain's Reward has been going up lately, didn't really make the connection that the reason why is because of Death's Shadow style decks now. I'd imagine that this a toss up with Painful Truths because I like both. Pain's Reward could be better as a way to burn an opponent that doesn't know what is happening.
I also like that the catepillar can blow things up on their turn but because it's not an EtB effect it can be disrupted. How often do you find it being destroyed when you don't have the green mana to sac it?
EDIT: would Qasali Pridemage be even more restrictive if you're splashing white? It would be easier to sacrifice and provide a little more threat until then. Just a thought...
Also, for Bauble drawing triggers you could always place a die or coin on top of your deck to remind you to draw an extra card.
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Follow the link for nice cheap clothing.
Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
While this is a brilliant way to avoid missing your own upkeep triggers (before you draw) It's not great in your opponent's upkeep because you never normally interact with your own deck in their upkeep. I tried the counter on my library trick last night, and while I was tired and had low blood sugar (which was probably the main reason for missing triggers) the counter was zero help whatsoever. I might start placing the baubles at a jaunty angle and on top of my graveyard if I still have a trigger waiting. Something similar to the way people mark creatures in dredge that have delayed triggers.
Would also like to reiterate how great varolz was for me last night in testing, giving me what few wins I could scrape together in my tired state all by himself. Very good with battle rage as well (as you'd imagine).
If I was concerned about it being blown up I would hold it back, there were some games when I had to just jam and hope for the best, and some games where I ran it out knowing that it would die because I didn't want to have to worry about dying to multiple Galvanic Blast. Overall, he's as vulnerable to removal as you make him. I did find myself fetching green lands more aggressively towards the end of the night so that I could Traverse for the worm and still blow something up in the same turn.
Pridemage is definitely something to consider, though my concern would be that fetching Godless Shrine has a very real downside, in that it's essentially a Swamp with minor upside. I could see myself boarding in Lingering Souls against Affinity anyway, so maybe it's not as a big a deal and is just a strict upgrade from the Caterpillar. I'm not on the white splash right now, but if I make the switch I'll probably try out Pridemage instead of Caterpillar for a bit.
I'm continuing to brainstorm how to deal with removal-heavy decks, has anybody tried out Bitterblossom? We would have to adjust our play pattern to be a little less aggressive with our life total in the early game, but it's an obnoxious card to deal with and Grixis has no way to remove it once it resolves. I was running it in traditional Jund when Grixis rose to prominence in 2015 and had great results with it in that matchup.
i liked your idea of playing thrinax, unlike lingering souls its soft to counters, discard and path, but every threat that we play in this slot will be soft to those as well. strangleroot geist and geralf's messenger are other options but thrinax is a lot easyer to cast