Okay, this list definitely has the tools you need. This might even line up better against them than my original list that I was referencing before. With your exact list, I would go:
-4 Street Wraith
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Abrade
+1 Abrupt Decay
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+1 Fatal Push
+1 Languish
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
The same caveat applies of going down to 1 LotV when on the draw for the third Inquisition. Trophy really isn't for their creatures, it's for everything else. Worship, Rest in Peace, and Moorland Haunt can all be deciding factors in the matchup, and you won't always be able to tag them with discard. I've honestly loved having access to Assassin's Trophy to deal with Gavony Township and Moorland Haunt in Coco matchups, where I used to either have to board in a Fulminator (which is not great) or just hope to not lose to it.
That game 1 is my general experience with the matchup, haha. I would sideboard a little differently, though:
-3 Fatal Push
-2 Terminate
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-2 Liliana of the Veil
Over time, I've found K-Command and Liliana to just be too slow and clunky, and your removal is pretty pointless.
This matchup is all about interacting with their lands. I generally find it relatively easy to win on the play (assuming my deck functions normally), and difficult to win on the draw. This means that winning game 1 gives you a big leg up in the match, since you're guaranteed to play a post-board game on the play. On the draw, I'm looking for my 7 card hand to have either multiple discard spells leading to a turn 2 Shadow, or Assassin's Trophy. I'll generally mulligan hands without one of those things, but once I get to 6 cards I'm willing to keep any hand with a discard spell and turn 2 threat.
I found this deck harder to learn than GDS. Stubborn Denial can really bail you out of poor life total management and wrong discard choices, and also allows you to play more reactionary. JDS asks you to think farther ahead and plan at the beginning of the game how you'll manage your opponent's top decks, which I found required a combination of experience playing the deck and familiarity with individual matchups.
Neither one features a straight Jund build, but the way he manages his life total and how he works through discard decisions helped me a ton when I was trying to learn the deck. In particular, he plays a match against Jeskai in one of them that has some very challenging Thoughtseizes that are interesting to look at. I also think Reid is just one of the best people to watch to improve at the game, he's just so thorough and deliberate in his thought process.
I love watching Reid as much as the next guy and agree that he's an extremely talented player, but man I couldn't believe that Affinity misplay where he took Blast instead of Champion with the IOK. He didn't really share his thought process there either, aside from simply stating that all those cards are potentially problematic. That Champion stood out like a sore thumb to me, snap discard if ever there was one, but he went with what looked like the least threatening card at the time instead and the fact that he didn't end up getting severely punished for it was a miracle. Well, even the pros mess up I guess.
Hi guys, here two brief reports of the MKM Series Bologna my teammate and I attended last week.
About 180 players, I ended 17th (6-2, no byes), my teammate Top 8ed (6-1-1, 2 byes).
We both played 4c Traverse Shadow, plz find the list below: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20981&d=339174&f=MO
Brief opinion on the decklist: we both are Shadow players since the first decklists came up online more than 2 years ago. During these years we experimented all the different Shadow shells, going from 5c, to 4c, to Jund, grixis and esper. We truly believe Traverse shell is simply more powerful than Grixis brother (which obv is the most played shadow shell ATM) for some simple reasons (feel free to discuss). Main differences between the two shells are: Snapcaster Mage, Threat Density, Manabase Consistency, Grave hate, Tarmogoyf.
1- A lot of people like playing Grixis over Traverse because of Snapcaster Mage. Snap is really a great card, but the Grixis shell played nowadays is the worst in taking advantage of Snappy: 17 lands and no KCom make us Snap for a cc1 spell only, so that the Snap is still a great card, but it’s not as strong as it used to be.
2- Traverse is THE card: fixes our lands and gives us a threat. Sometimes grixis shell loses a lot of time trying to find a threat through Visions, Scour and Baubles. Here you can easily pay 1 to get a Shadow (obv, U must have delirium, but the was born to consistently make delirium).
3- Grixis Shadow is more consistent than any other shell. Only 3 colors, 2 basic lands that covers the colors other than red. Sometimes it could happen that playing traverse u got stuck in hand spells that u can’t cast, we believe the manabase we played at tournament was really consistent, but we must say Grixis is better in consistency.
4- The only card that kills us is Rest in Peace, but we can discard/counter it, and remove it too (trophy). Other grave hate cards (surgical, nihil, relic, Leyline) don’t really kill us, some of them are one-shot cards and some other still allow our goyfs to be big.
5- Tarmogoyf is better than Gurmag Angler, no way out.
Francesco Trogu’s Report: Top8 – Lost in quarterfinals
Turn 1 – Turn 2: Bye (4-0 at MKM Trial on Friday, winning to Gtron, Scales, Spirits, Dredge).
Turn 3 - Bant Spirits : 1-2
G1 and G2 were straightforward, I won G1 doing what the deck it’s designed to: discard, fast shadow, temur battle rage. My opponent did the same in game 2. I lost g3 due to mana screw: I mulligan a one-land hand (forest) to find another one-land hand (forest again), I didn’t find the second land.
Turn 4 – BG Midrange : 2-0
G1: turn 1 discard, turn 2 discard, turn 3 Shadow with Stubborn backup. He didn’t find a double removal.
G2: turn 1 discard, turn 3 Lili of the Veil, turn 4 Kcom killing bob and making him discard a card, I won as soon as I found a creature.
Turn 5 – Affinity: 2-0
G1 and G2: too many removals for him, he didn’t manage to play a champion, no way to win.
Turn 6 – KCI : 2-1
G1: turn 1 discard, then Shadow and stubborn on Krark-Clan Ironworks, Untap , Draw TBR.
G2: my oppo started with a double Grove of the Burnwillows on the first 2 turns, EE killed my goyf and he managed to win a couple of turns later.
G3: turn 1 discard, turn 2 goyf, turn 3 goyf + stubborn.
Turn 7 – BR Vengevine : 2-1
G1: easy win, Shadow and TBR.
G2: easy lose, vengevine + 2 zombies on turn 2, no TBR.
G3: really exciting, I kept a really strong hand, he doesn’t find Leyline in his opening. Turn 1 discard targeting looting, turn 2 goyf but I struggled to win cos of his several zombies. Time ended, judges called additional turns, at the 4th additional turn he had a double shadow and double goyf (5/6), I was at 10 and he was at 9, I had a TBR in hand, but he had 10 zombies. I drew Bolt and I swung for 16 with all my creats. He had to decide if safely blocks and didn’t risk to lose or do some double blocks and try to win the turn after. He went for the second choice, double blocking my goyfs and blocking my shadows with a zombie each, bolt targeting myself, I went to 7, TBR on Shadow and won.
Turn 8 – I had the highest rating among 6-wins players and I drew.
Top 8 - Mentor Phoenix: 0-2
G1 at some point I was at 9 and I had to decide if cast a shadow and kill him the turn after, but expose myself to a double bolt and phoenix, or cast an IOK to shave an eventual bolt from his hand and slow down a turn, I went for the first, he drew a scour milling a phoenix drawing a bolt.
G2 I played thoughtseize only, not a removal nor a threat.
I was satisfied overall, the deck was really strong and I think I didn’t make any relevant mistake.
Alessio Bergodi’s Report: 6-2
Turn 1 – 4c Eldritch Evolution: 2-0
G1: he played a double Voice of Resurgence, on turn 3 my board counted a goyf and 2 shadows, he tried an Evolution but stubborn gave me the win.
G2: too many removals for me, he was stuck with 2 evolutions in hand without creatures to sacrifice.
Turn 2 – Burn : 2-0
G1: my oppo screwd stuck on one land for 2 or 3 turns, too much time for me
G2: 2 stubborns on the last 2 bolts.
Turn 3 – UWR : 1-2
G1: I was forced to lose too many life casting seizes, he killed me with bolts.
G2: too many threats for me, double goyf on t2 and t3 with a stub backup.
G3: he managed to kill me at the last additional turn bouncing his snap with cryptic and killing me snapping bolt, I was at 3
Turn 4 – Infect : 2-0
Really good Matchup, pretty straightforward games, shadow, removal, tbr.
Turn 5 – Vizier Company: 2-0
G1: a couple of removals on his key creatures while swinging with a shadow, he didn’t find a chord.
G2: oppo starting, land hierarch, go. Land finks go. Land Finks, go. Anger of the gods.
Turn 6 – EldraTron: 2-0
G1. Turn 1 discard on his chalice, then double shadow on turn 2.
G2: He kept a really slow hand, I was really fast, too fast.
Turn 7 – Grixis Shadow: 2-1
G1: both turn 1 discard, I played a goyf and he found a push, I found a trophy for his angler then a traverse for a Shadow that he didn’t solved.
G2: turn 2 gurmag and stubborn on my dismember. Than push on my shadow and gg.
G3: We went to topdeck at turn 4 after some discards and removals, untap draw: lili of the veil, gg.
Turn 8 – UR Phoenix: 0-2
My rating was not that great, so I had to play.
G1: my hand didn’t have a threat, but I Got a Lili. At some point he drew a looting and cast it, drawing and discarding double phoenix, I had no answer for such a play.
G2: really slow game, I had 3 shadows but I was at 15, at some point I fetched and played a shadow, he killed it with an axe than played a surgical targeting shadow, emptying my hand. I didn’t find any answer for his phoenix + drake and lost.
Great job guys. Any chance of a sideboarding guide for the event? Did you ever bring in Snapcaster, and if so, was he ever any good? I never liked the card at all in our deck personally but I'm curious now.
Hi guys, here two brief reports of the MKM Series Bologna my teammate and I attended last week.
About 180 players, I ended 17th (6-2, no byes), my teammate Top 8ed (6-1-1, 2 byes).
We both played 4c Traverse Shadow, plz find the list below: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20981&d=339174&f=MO
Brief opinion on the decklist: we both are Shadow players since the first decklists came up online more than 2 years ago. During these years we experimented all the different Shadow shells, going from 5c, to 4c, to Jund, grixis and esper. We truly believe Traverse shell is simply more powerful than Grixis brother (which obv is the most played shadow shell ATM) for some simple reasons (feel free to discuss). Main differences between the two shells are: Snapcaster Mage, Threat Density, Manabase Consistency, Grave hate, Tarmogoyf.
1- A lot of people like playing Grixis over Traverse because of Snapcaster Mage. Snap is really a great card, but the Grixis shell played nowadays is the worst in taking advantage of Snappy: 17 lands and no KCom make us Snap for a cc1 spell only, so that the Snap is still a great card, but it’s not as strong as it used to be.
2- Traverse is THE card: fixes our lands and gives us a threat. Sometimes grixis shell loses a lot of time trying to find a threat through Visions, Scour and Baubles. Here you can easily pay 1 to get a Shadow (obv, U must have delirium, but the was born to consistently make delirium).
3- Grixis Shadow is more consistent than any other shell. Only 3 colors, 2 basic lands that covers the colors other than red. Sometimes it could happen that playing traverse u got stuck in hand spells that u can’t cast, we believe the manabase we played at tournament was really consistent, but we must say Grixis is better in consistency.
4- The only card that kills us is Rest in Peace, but we can discard/counter it, and remove it too (trophy). Other grave hate cards (surgical, nihil, relic, Leyline) don’t really kill us, some of them are one-shot cards and some other still allow our goyfs to be big.
5- Tarmogoyf is better than Gurmag Angler, no way out.
Francesco Trogu’s Report: Top8 – Lost in quarterfinals
Turn 1 – Turn 2: Bye (4-0 at MKM Trial on Friday, winning to Gtron, Scales, Spirits, Dredge).
Turn 3 - Bant Spirits : 1-2
G1 and G2 were straightforward, I won G1 doing what the deck it’s designed to: discard, fast shadow, temur battle rage. My opponent did the same in game 2. I lost g3 due to mana screw: I mulligan a one-land hand (forest) to find another one-land hand (forest again), I didn’t find the second land.
Turn 4 – BG Midrange : 2-0
G1: turn 1 discard, turn 2 discard, turn 3 Shadow with Stubborn backup. He didn’t find a double removal.
G2: turn 1 discard, turn 3 Lili of the Veil, turn 4 Kcom killing bob and making him discard a card, I won as soon as I found a creature.
Turn 5 – Affinity: 2-0
G1 and G2: too many removals for him, he didn’t manage to play a champion, no way to win.
Turn 6 – KCI : 2-1
G1: turn 1 discard, then Shadow and stubborn on Krark-Clan Ironworks, Untap , Draw TBR.
G2: my oppo started with a double Grove of the Burnwillows on the first 2 turns, EE killed my goyf and he managed to win a couple of turns later.
G3: turn 1 discard, turn 2 goyf, turn 3 goyf + stubborn.
Turn 7 – BR Vengevine : 2-1
G1: easy win, Shadow and TBR.
G2: easy lose, vengevine + 2 zombies on turn 2, no TBR.
G3: really exciting, I kept a really strong hand, he doesn’t find Leyline in his opening. Turn 1 discard targeting looting, turn 2 goyf but I struggled to win cos of his several zombies. Time ended, judges called additional turns, at the 4th additional turn he had a double shadow and double goyf (5/6), I was at 10 and he was at 9, I had a TBR in hand, but he had 10 zombies. I drew Bolt and I swung for 16 with all my creats. He had to decide if safely blocks and didn’t risk to lose or do some double blocks and try to win the turn after. He went for the second choice, double blocking my goyfs and blocking my shadows with a zombie each, bolt targeting myself, I went to 7, TBR on Shadow and won.
Turn 8 – I had the highest rating among 6-wins players and I drew.
Top 8 - Mentor Phoenix: 0-2
G1 at some point I was at 9 and I had to decide if cast a shadow and kill him the turn after, but expose myself to a double bolt and phoenix, or cast an IOK to shave an eventual bolt from his hand and slow down a turn, I went for the first, he drew a scour milling a phoenix drawing a bolt.
G2 I played thoughtseize only, not a removal nor a threat.
I was satisfied overall, the deck was really strong and I think I didn’t make any relevant mistake.
Alessio Bergodi’s Report: 6-2
Turn 1 – 4c Eldritch Evolution: 2-0
G1: he played a double Voice of Resurgence, on turn 3 my board counted a goyf and 2 shadows, he tried an Evolution but stubborn gave me the win.
G2: too many removals for me, he was stuck with 2 evolutions in hand without creatures to sacrifice.
Turn 2 – Burn : 2-0
G1: my oppo screwd stuck on one land for 2 or 3 turns, too much time for me
G2: 2 stubborns on the last 2 bolts.
Turn 3 – UWR : 1-2
G1: I was forced to lose too many life casting seizes, he killed me with bolts.
G2: too many threats for me, double goyf on t2 and t3 with a stub backup.
G3: he managed to kill me at the last additional turn bouncing his snap with cryptic and killing me snapping bolt, I was at 3
Turn 4 – Infect : 2-0
Really good Matchup, pretty straightforward games, shadow, removal, tbr.
Turn 5 – Vizier Company: 2-0
G1: a couple of removals on his key creatures while swinging with a shadow, he didn’t find a chord.
G2: oppo starting, land hierarch, go. Land finks go. Land Finks, go. Anger of the gods.
Turn 6 – EldraTron: 2-0
G1. Turn 1 discard on his chalice, then double shadow on turn 2.
G2: He kept a really slow hand, I was really fast, too fast.
Turn 7 – Grixis Shadow: 2-1
G1: both turn 1 discard, I played a goyf and he found a push, I found a trophy for his angler then a traverse for a Shadow that he didn’t solved.
G2: turn 2 gurmag and stubborn on my dismember. Than push on my shadow and gg.
G3: We went to topdeck at turn 4 after some discards and removals, untap draw: lili of the veil, gg.
Turn 8 – UR Phoenix: 0-2
My rating was not that great, so I had to play.
G1: my hand didn’t have a threat, but I Got a Lili. At some point he drew a looting and cast it, drawing and discarding double phoenix, I had no answer for such a play.
G2: really slow game, I had 3 shadows but I was at 15, at some point I fetched and played a shadow, he killed it with an axe than played a surgical targeting shadow, emptying my hand. I didn’t find any answer for his phoenix + drake and lost.
Ty for reading
!
Thank you for the tournament outline. And great job, both dudes!
My biggest take away here is that Stubborn Denial is still pretty important. Granted Defish and others have shown fine results in straight Jund colors, I personally don't forsee giving up blue any time soon. I'm gearing up for GP LA in one month and I expect a lot of Burn, Tron and Jeskai. I've played at a ton of Comp REL events all over Southern California over the last two years and those two archetypes are the most consistently played that I've seen. My biggest concern is Grixis Shadow because a lot of people seem to be picking that deck up lately, if online results are to be trusted that is.
LOTV seems to be our best card in that match, but what other Sideboard tech could I consider? I really like Defish's Fulminator plan against them. The extra SB Mages could also pull double duty against both Primeval Titan and Tron.
Hey there folks, any thoughts on Incubation in this type of shell? I'm looking to try this deck and was really inspired by this video to give Incubation a shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUPHZP6DbDg
This guy is hilarious. But also the new take on the deck is very interesting. Playing all 4 Grim Flayer makes the deck feel way more aggressive.
I'm skeptical of the Flame-Kin tech though because the haste isn't always relevant. And I feel like I'd play at least Watery Grave so you could cast Incongruity in those rare cases.
How would a split card like this interact with Eidolon of the Great Revel?
This guy is hilarious. But also the new take on the deck is very interesting. Playing all 4 Grim Flayer makes the deck feel way more aggressive.
I'm skeptical of the Flame-Kin tech though because the haste isn't always relevant. And I feel like I'd play at least Watery Grave so you could cast Incongruity in those rare cases.
How would a split card like this interact with Eidolon of the Great Revel?
Hi guys, here two brief reports of the MKM Series Bologna my teammate and I attended last week.
About 180 players, I ended 17th (6-2, no byes), my teammate Top 8ed (6-1-1, 2 byes).
We both played 4c Traverse Shadow, plz find the list below: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20981&d=339174&f=MO
Brief opinion on the decklist: we both are Shadow players since the first decklists came up online more than 2 years ago. During these years we experimented all the different Shadow shells, going from 5c, to 4c, to Jund, grixis and esper. We truly believe Traverse shell is simply more powerful than Grixis brother (which obv is the most played shadow shell ATM) for some simple reasons (feel free to discuss). Main differences between the two shells are: Snapcaster Mage, Threat Density, Manabase Consistency, Grave hate, Tarmogoyf.
1- A lot of people like playing Grixis over Traverse because of Snapcaster Mage. Snap is really a great card, but the Grixis shell played nowadays is the worst in taking advantage of Snappy: 17 lands and no KCom make us Snap for a cc1 spell only, so that the Snap is still a great card, but it’s not as strong as it used to be.
2- Traverse is THE card: fixes our lands and gives us a threat. Sometimes grixis shell loses a lot of time trying to find a threat through Visions, Scour and Baubles. Here you can easily pay 1 to get a Shadow (obv, U must have delirium, but the was born to consistently make delirium).
3- Grixis Shadow is more consistent than any other shell. Only 3 colors, 2 basic lands that covers the colors other than red. Sometimes it could happen that playing traverse u got stuck in hand spells that u can’t cast, we believe the manabase we played at tournament was really consistent, but we must say Grixis is better in consistency.
4- The only card that kills us is Rest in Peace, but we can discard/counter it, and remove it too (trophy). Other grave hate cards (surgical, nihil, relic, Leyline) don’t really kill us, some of them are one-shot cards and some other still allow our goyfs to be big.
5- Tarmogoyf is better than Gurmag Angler, no way out.
Francesco Trogu’s Report: Top8 – Lost in quarterfinals
Turn 1 – Turn 2: Bye (4-0 at MKM Trial on Friday, winning to Gtron, Scales, Spirits, Dredge).
Turn 3 - Bant Spirits : 1-2
G1 and G2 were straightforward, I won G1 doing what the deck it’s designed to: discard, fast shadow, temur battle rage. My opponent did the same in game 2. I lost g3 due to mana screw: I mulligan a one-land hand (forest) to find another one-land hand (forest again), I didn’t find the second land.
Turn 4 – BG Midrange : 2-0
G1: turn 1 discard, turn 2 discard, turn 3 Shadow with Stubborn backup. He didn’t find a double removal.
G2: turn 1 discard, turn 3 Lili of the Veil, turn 4 Kcom killing bob and making him discard a card, I won as soon as I found a creature.
Turn 5 – Affinity: 2-0
G1 and G2: too many removals for him, he didn’t manage to play a champion, no way to win.
Turn 6 – KCI : 2-1
G1: turn 1 discard, then Shadow and stubborn on Krark-Clan Ironworks, Untap , Draw TBR.
G2: my oppo started with a double Grove of the Burnwillows on the first 2 turns, EE killed my goyf and he managed to win a couple of turns later.
G3: turn 1 discard, turn 2 goyf, turn 3 goyf + stubborn.
Turn 7 – BR Vengevine : 2-1
G1: easy win, Shadow and TBR.
G2: easy lose, vengevine + 2 zombies on turn 2, no TBR.
G3: really exciting, I kept a really strong hand, he doesn’t find Leyline in his opening. Turn 1 discard targeting looting, turn 2 goyf but I struggled to win cos of his several zombies. Time ended, judges called additional turns, at the 4th additional turn he had a double shadow and double goyf (5/6), I was at 10 and he was at 9, I had a TBR in hand, but he had 10 zombies. I drew Bolt and I swung for 16 with all my creats. He had to decide if safely blocks and didn’t risk to lose or do some double blocks and try to win the turn after. He went for the second choice, double blocking my goyfs and blocking my shadows with a zombie each, bolt targeting myself, I went to 7, TBR on Shadow and won.
Turn 8 – I had the highest rating among 6-wins players and I drew.
Top 8 - Mentor Phoenix: 0-2
G1 at some point I was at 9 and I had to decide if cast a shadow and kill him the turn after, but expose myself to a double bolt and phoenix, or cast an IOK to shave an eventual bolt from his hand and slow down a turn, I went for the first, he drew a scour milling a phoenix drawing a bolt.
G2 I played thoughtseize only, not a removal nor a threat.
I was satisfied overall, the deck was really strong and I think I didn’t make any relevant mistake.
Alessio Bergodi’s Report: 6-2
Turn 1 – 4c Eldritch Evolution: 2-0
G1: he played a double Voice of Resurgence, on turn 3 my board counted a goyf and 2 shadows, he tried an Evolution but stubborn gave me the win.
G2: too many removals for me, he was stuck with 2 evolutions in hand without creatures to sacrifice.
Turn 2 – Burn : 2-0
G1: my oppo screwd stuck on one land for 2 or 3 turns, too much time for me
G2: 2 stubborns on the last 2 bolts.
Turn 3 – UWR : 1-2
G1: I was forced to lose too many life casting seizes, he killed me with bolts.
G2: too many threats for me, double goyf on t2 and t3 with a stub backup.
G3: he managed to kill me at the last additional turn bouncing his snap with cryptic and killing me snapping bolt, I was at 3
Turn 4 – Infect : 2-0
Really good Matchup, pretty straightforward games, shadow, removal, tbr.
Turn 5 – Vizier Company: 2-0
G1: a couple of removals on his key creatures while swinging with a shadow, he didn’t find a chord.
G2: oppo starting, land hierarch, go. Land finks go. Land Finks, go. Anger of the gods.
Turn 6 – EldraTron: 2-0
G1. Turn 1 discard on his chalice, then double shadow on turn 2.
G2: He kept a really slow hand, I was really fast, too fast.
Turn 7 – Grixis Shadow: 2-1
G1: both turn 1 discard, I played a goyf and he found a push, I found a trophy for his angler then a traverse for a Shadow that he didn’t solved.
G2: turn 2 gurmag and stubborn on my dismember. Than push on my shadow and gg.
G3: We went to topdeck at turn 4 after some discards and removals, untap draw: lili of the veil, gg.
Turn 8 – UR Phoenix: 0-2
My rating was not that great, so I had to play.
G1: my hand didn’t have a threat, but I Got a Lili. At some point he drew a looting and cast it, drawing and discarding double phoenix, I had no answer for such a play.
G2: really slow game, I had 3 shadows but I was at 15, at some point I fetched and played a shadow, he killed it with an axe than played a surgical targeting shadow, emptying my hand. I didn’t find any answer for his phoenix + drake and lost.
Ty for reading!
I'd really like to thank you for this list. I've been running it but subbing the two Anger of the Gods for Collective Brutality in the side. It feels amazing and consistent. I feel like I've only lost so far due to misplays (New to the deck) and flooding. Overall I love having access to Goyf, Traverse and Assassin's Trophy. Thanks again.
Testing out the Incubate version of the deck (with some minor tweaks, mostly to Sideboard) and it definitely feels much faster but overall much weaker to interactive decks than we already are. And that's not somewhere I want to be. I've done ok against Phoenix decks and completely crushed Tron and Whir. The deck is so light on removal that it doesn't even feel like a midrange deck anymore. Makes me think more of the Suicide Zoo decks that just try to explode out of nowhere. The extra Grim flayers played a part in most of my wins which was nice. I was regularly attacking with 3 or so creatures by turn 4
Inner Flame Acolyte felt awful every time I drew it. So far in 8 matches I haven't needed to Traverse for it or Ghor-Clan. The GDS match - up seems completely unwinnable so with that archetype on the rise I think I'll shelve this variation for now.
I think the Grim Flayers are the most interesting part of that list, at one point I was brainstorming a non-Shadow Jund build that ditched BBE for Flayer because I think it's a really underutilized tool in the bigger B/G/x decks. Do you find that you like them because it's just another attacking body, or because it's Grim Flayer, specifically?
I'm actually trying out a third Battle Rage instead of Rampager right now. I've been running with 2 and no Rampager for a bit but I'm just not seeing Battle Rage as often as I'd like in game 1. I only have an afternoon of testing against Hardened Scales with the 3 Rages, but I drew them very consistently and won every game where I did, so I'll probably continue with it until I find a compelling reason not to.
Specifically Grim Flayer's ability is just awesome. If he connects twice (for any amount) and you resolve two surveils in a row, it's likely to put you far enough ahead with your draws. I played a couple more practice games tonight and this list just gets delirium so fast. I've dropped Grim Flayer at 4/4 (or similarly Tarmo at 4/5 or even 5/6) on turn TWO so regularly it's awesome. But it's what I follow up that bothers me. I'm finding more games where I can reliably cast a threat three turns in a row than where I'm casting TS/Inquisition back to back. One of the draws to Shadow (for me) is playing the full suite of 8 discard spells. Digging with Incubation after I just got double Fatal Pushed feels great, but when my opening hand already has two threats, I don't really want to dig for another so it's kind of a dead card in hand. I cast Incongruity on a Phoenix once which felt so satisfying. But that's a rare situation, so I might consider running fewer copies. I'll try just 3 for now. Bauble can help set you up for when to cast Incubation also. For example, one game I kept a 1-land opener and used Bauble first turn. Saw I had a land next so I waited on casting my Incubation. Turn 3 cast incubation finding a shadow and putting myself at delirium, then using my other mana to traverse for another shadow. Turn 3 cast Thoughtseize to clear the path then drop both Shadows at 3/3
So far I haven't played against Humans or Spirits yet. I'm thinking it wouldn't be in my favor, but maybe the extra bodies will help me race?
I'm also on the fence about the 2nd dismember. Not just in this Incubate nonsense version but in my main list too. I like it against H1 and GDS but not really against much else.
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The third TBR in the main deck is something I could really see myself going for in my main list. It can steal so many game ones... Then if you're playing against like UWx or GDS, you can swap them for a ton of Fulminator Mages like you've suggested recently. It sounds like a great tech
I think if you want more TBRs in the incubation list you should be playing ghorclan. With 16 creatures incubation is about 80% to hit. Going up to 18 (like the list in the video) puts you at 85%. If shriekmaw hit black creatures I would suggest that as well for incubation to hit spell like effects.
I think it may be an issue of having too many cantrips and not enough action. I think that 4 Flayer, 4 Traverse, and the 3 Incubations is probably 3-5 more consistency tools than you need. I would maybe look to drop the Incubations for more removal, since Flayer synergizes well with Traverse, although I realize that the Incubations are part of the point of the list.
I generally like my matchup against Humans and Spirits with both Jund and 4-color, though I think Jund is a bit better because you're more freely able to fetch basics to preserve your life total. I do think you're too light on removal for those matchups though, and I could see them being difficult for the list you posted. I do like how Flayer lines up against both of those decks right now, though.
I've been playing 4-color for a bit now, mostly Jund splashing blue, and I've found a list I think is very strong. I took cues from both Jund and Grixis lists to hit a solid balance of consistency tools and aggression. So far I've won a couple leagues with it.
The only mainboard removal that isn't 1-cmc is Assassin's Trophy to let me cut down to 17 lands. All 3-cmc cards are in the board, since post-board games tend to go longer anyway. 1-of Snapcaster helps recur a game winning spell, and works with the toolbox effect of Traverse. Faithless Looting was added since I felt Grixis lists blew us out of the water in terms of card filtering.
I think it's very wrong to drop IOKs in favor of a card like Looting, which detracts from our main game plan. GDS has to filter so much because it's low on threats, requires delve and doesn't have Traverse. We don't.
I think it's very wrong to drop IOKs in favor of a card like Looting, which detracts from our main game plan. GDS has to filter so much because it's low on threats, requires delve and doesn't have Traverse. We don't.
But I'm running 3 IOK's? Which seems to be the standard for all the DS lists I've seen.
I second the notion that faithless doesn't really belong in this version, especially at the cost of one of the core cards in the deck. I ran one in my list for most of the PPTQ season last summer and I was rarely happy to see it. It's great in GDS and I would run a third copy before even a single Serum Visions in that deck. But for Traverse Shadow I just feel like it's a waste of resources.
I remember a few pages ago there was a list that placed top8 which used Nature's Way. I wonder if a Sultai list could be viable by forgoing TBR for the Nature's Way. It doesn't double down so it wouldn't be nearly as useful against something like tron where you want to race, but it would be very useful against midrange/creature decks. Probably a Sideboard tech though, not main deck material.
I think it's very wrong to drop IOKs in favor of a card like Looting, which detracts from our main game plan. GDS has to filter so much because it's low on threats, requires delve and doesn't have Traverse. We don't.
But I'm running 3 IOK's? Which seems to be the standard for all the DS lists I've seen.
Sorry, I should have said 'drop any IOKs'. I think running the full 8x discard suite is clutch for Traverse lists, personally, and I really don't understand why we would go down to anything but the full two playsets - especially in exchange for cards like Looting, which we don't really need.
I have no idea where you're looking for reference aside from the two lists that did so well at MKM recently (although I also don't understand why they would drop an IOK for Bolt but fair enough, could be a meta call). Out of the literally dozens of Jund DS lists on MTGGoldfish, I've only found one that runs 3 copies of IOK (for Find/Finality, of all things), and it also has the worst record out of all of them at 5-3. We have always been running 4 IOK and 4 Thoughtseize.
The last thing I want to do on turn 1 is durdle around with cards like Looting instead of interacting with my opponent.
I may have gotten my numbers mixed up between Grixis and Jund versions then. I'm going to try cutting the Lootings for a 4th IoK and another Bolt and see how that goes. I'd like to run straight Jund right now, but I feel like Stubborn Denial is just so strong that not playing it feels wrong.
Yeah, with the uptick in Burn and Amulet they're not a liability I mind having. I'm curious if Tarfire isn't better for us right now, seeing as Humans isn't really a problem anymore with all its x/3s.
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Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
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I love watching Reid as much as the next guy and agree that he's an extremely talented player, but man I couldn't believe that Affinity misplay where he took Blast instead of Champion with the IOK. He didn't really share his thought process there either, aside from simply stating that all those cards are potentially problematic. That Champion stood out like a sore thumb to me, snap discard if ever there was one, but he went with what looked like the least threatening card at the time instead and the fact that he didn't end up getting severely punished for it was a miracle. Well, even the pros mess up I guess.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
About 180 players, I ended 17th (6-2, no byes), my teammate Top 8ed (6-1-1, 2 byes).
We both played 4c Traverse Shadow, plz find the list below:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=20981&d=339174&f=MO
Brief opinion on the decklist: we both are Shadow players since the first decklists came up online more than 2 years ago. During these years we experimented all the different Shadow shells, going from 5c, to 4c, to Jund, grixis and esper. We truly believe Traverse shell is simply more powerful than Grixis brother (which obv is the most played shadow shell ATM) for some simple reasons (feel free to discuss). Main differences between the two shells are: Snapcaster Mage, Threat Density, Manabase Consistency, Grave hate, Tarmogoyf.
1- A lot of people like playing Grixis over Traverse because of Snapcaster Mage. Snap is really a great card, but the Grixis shell played nowadays is the worst in taking advantage of Snappy: 17 lands and no KCom make us Snap for a cc1 spell only, so that the Snap is still a great card, but it’s not as strong as it used to be.
2- Traverse is THE card: fixes our lands and gives us a threat. Sometimes grixis shell loses a lot of time trying to find a threat through Visions, Scour and Baubles. Here you can easily pay 1 to get a Shadow (obv, U must have delirium, but the was born to consistently make delirium).
3- Grixis Shadow is more consistent than any other shell. Only 3 colors, 2 basic lands that covers the colors other than red. Sometimes it could happen that playing traverse u got stuck in hand spells that u can’t cast, we believe the manabase we played at tournament was really consistent, but we must say Grixis is better in consistency.
4- The only card that kills us is Rest in Peace, but we can discard/counter it, and remove it too (trophy). Other grave hate cards (surgical, nihil, relic, Leyline) don’t really kill us, some of them are one-shot cards and some other still allow our goyfs to be big.
5- Tarmogoyf is better than Gurmag Angler, no way out.
Francesco Trogu’s Report: Top8 – Lost in quarterfinals
Turn 1 – Turn 2: Bye (4-0 at MKM Trial on Friday, winning to Gtron, Scales, Spirits, Dredge).
Turn 3 - Bant Spirits : 1-2
G1 and G2 were straightforward, I won G1 doing what the deck it’s designed to: discard, fast shadow, temur battle rage. My opponent did the same in game 2. I lost g3 due to mana screw: I mulligan a one-land hand (forest) to find another one-land hand (forest again), I didn’t find the second land.
Turn 4 – BG Midrange : 2-0
G1: turn 1 discard, turn 2 discard, turn 3 Shadow with Stubborn backup. He didn’t find a double removal.
G2: turn 1 discard, turn 3 Lili of the Veil, turn 4 Kcom killing bob and making him discard a card, I won as soon as I found a creature.
Turn 5 – Affinity: 2-0
G1 and G2: too many removals for him, he didn’t manage to play a champion, no way to win.
Turn 6 – KCI : 2-1
G1: turn 1 discard, then Shadow and stubborn on Krark-Clan Ironworks, Untap , Draw TBR.
G2: my oppo started with a double Grove of the Burnwillows on the first 2 turns, EE killed my goyf and he managed to win a couple of turns later.
G3: turn 1 discard, turn 2 goyf, turn 3 goyf + stubborn.
Turn 7 – BR Vengevine : 2-1
G1: easy win, Shadow and TBR.
G2: easy lose, vengevine + 2 zombies on turn 2, no TBR.
G3: really exciting, I kept a really strong hand, he doesn’t find Leyline in his opening. Turn 1 discard targeting looting, turn 2 goyf but I struggled to win cos of his several zombies. Time ended, judges called additional turns, at the 4th additional turn he had a double shadow and double goyf (5/6), I was at 10 and he was at 9, I had a TBR in hand, but he had 10 zombies. I drew Bolt and I swung for 16 with all my creats. He had to decide if safely blocks and didn’t risk to lose or do some double blocks and try to win the turn after. He went for the second choice, double blocking my goyfs and blocking my shadows with a zombie each, bolt targeting myself, I went to 7, TBR on Shadow and won.
Turn 8 – I had the highest rating among 6-wins players and I drew.
Top 8 - Mentor Phoenix: 0-2
G1 at some point I was at 9 and I had to decide if cast a shadow and kill him the turn after, but expose myself to a double bolt and phoenix, or cast an IOK to shave an eventual bolt from his hand and slow down a turn, I went for the first, he drew a scour milling a phoenix drawing a bolt.
G2 I played thoughtseize only, not a removal nor a threat.
I was satisfied overall, the deck was really strong and I think I didn’t make any relevant mistake.
Alessio Bergodi’s Report: 6-2
Turn 1 – 4c Eldritch Evolution: 2-0
G1: he played a double Voice of Resurgence, on turn 3 my board counted a goyf and 2 shadows, he tried an Evolution but stubborn gave me the win.
G2: too many removals for me, he was stuck with 2 evolutions in hand without creatures to sacrifice.
Turn 2 – Burn : 2-0
G1: my oppo screwd stuck on one land for 2 or 3 turns, too much time for me
G2: 2 stubborns on the last 2 bolts.
Turn 3 – UWR : 1-2
G1: I was forced to lose too many life casting seizes, he killed me with bolts.
G2: too many threats for me, double goyf on t2 and t3 with a stub backup.
G3: he managed to kill me at the last additional turn bouncing his snap with cryptic and killing me snapping bolt, I was at 3
Turn 4 – Infect : 2-0
Really good Matchup, pretty straightforward games, shadow, removal, tbr.
Turn 5 – Vizier Company: 2-0
G1: a couple of removals on his key creatures while swinging with a shadow, he didn’t find a chord.
G2: oppo starting, land hierarch, go. Land finks go. Land Finks, go. Anger of the gods.
Turn 6 – EldraTron: 2-0
G1. Turn 1 discard on his chalice, then double shadow on turn 2.
G2: He kept a really slow hand, I was really fast, too fast.
Turn 7 – Grixis Shadow: 2-1
G1: both turn 1 discard, I played a goyf and he found a push, I found a trophy for his angler then a traverse for a Shadow that he didn’t solved.
G2: turn 2 gurmag and stubborn on my dismember. Than push on my shadow and gg.
G3: We went to topdeck at turn 4 after some discards and removals, untap draw: lili of the veil, gg.
Turn 8 – UR Phoenix: 0-2
My rating was not that great, so I had to play.
G1: my hand didn’t have a threat, but I Got a Lili. At some point he drew a looting and cast it, drawing and discarding double phoenix, I had no answer for such a play.
G2: really slow game, I had 3 shadows but I was at 15, at some point I fetched and played a shadow, he killed it with an axe than played a surgical targeting shadow, emptying my hand. I didn’t find any answer for his phoenix + drake and lost.
Ty for reading!
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Thank you for the tournament outline. And great job, both dudes!
My biggest take away here is that Stubborn Denial is still pretty important. Granted Defish and others have shown fine results in straight Jund colors, I personally don't forsee giving up blue any time soon. I'm gearing up for GP LA in one month and I expect a lot of Burn, Tron and Jeskai. I've played at a ton of Comp REL events all over Southern California over the last two years and those two archetypes are the most consistently played that I've seen. My biggest concern is Grixis Shadow because a lot of people seem to be picking that deck up lately, if online results are to be trusted that is.
LOTV seems to be our best card in that match, but what other Sideboard tech could I consider? I really like Defish's Fulminator plan against them. The extra SB Mages could also pull double duty against both Primeval Titan and Tron.
Draft My Cube!
I'm skeptical of the Flame-Kin tech though because the haste isn't always relevant. And I feel like I'd play at least Watery Grave so you could cast Incongruity in those rare cases.
How would a split card like this interact with Eidolon of the Great Revel?
Draft My Cube!
It wouldn't, CMC=4.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I'd really like to thank you for this list. I've been running it but subbing the two Anger of the Gods for Collective Brutality in the side. It feels amazing and consistent. I feel like I've only lost so far due to misplays (New to the deck) and flooding. Overall I love having access to Goyf, Traverse and Assassin's Trophy. Thanks again.
Inner Flame Acolyte felt awful every time I drew it. So far in 8 matches I haven't needed to Traverse for it or Ghor-Clan. The GDS match - up seems completely unwinnable so with that archetype on the rise I think I'll shelve this variation for now.
Draft My Cube!
I'm actually trying out a third Battle Rage instead of Rampager right now. I've been running with 2 and no Rampager for a bit but I'm just not seeing Battle Rage as often as I'd like in game 1. I only have an afternoon of testing against Hardened Scales with the 3 Rages, but I drew them very consistently and won every game where I did, so I'll probably continue with it until I find a compelling reason not to.
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
4 Grim flayer
Spells
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Incubation // Incongruity
2 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
1 Tarfire
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Collective Brutality
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Snapcaster Mage
So far I haven't played against Humans or Spirits yet. I'm thinking it wouldn't be in my favor, but maybe the extra bodies will help me race?
I'm also on the fence about the 2nd dismember. Not just in this Incubate nonsense version but in my main list too. I like it against H1 and GDS but not really against much else.
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The third TBR in the main deck is something I could really see myself going for in my main list. It can steal so many game ones... Then if you're playing against like UWx or GDS, you can swap them for a ton of Fulminator Mages like you've suggested recently. It sounds like a great tech
Draft My Cube!
I generally like my matchup against Humans and Spirits with both Jund and 4-color, though I think Jund is a bit better because you're more freely able to fetch basics to preserve your life total. I do think you're too light on removal for those matchups though, and I could see them being difficult for the list you posted. I do like how Flayer lines up against both of those decks right now, though.
4 Death's Shadow
1 Grim Flayer
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
Instants
2 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Tarfire
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Temur Battle Rage
2 Dismember
Sorceries
2 Faithless Looting
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mishra's Bauble
Lands
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Polluted Delta
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Stubborn Denial
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrade
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
The only mainboard removal that isn't 1-cmc is Assassin's Trophy to let me cut down to 17 lands. All 3-cmc cards are in the board, since post-board games tend to go longer anyway. 1-of Snapcaster helps recur a game winning spell, and works with the toolbox effect of Traverse. Faithless Looting was added since I felt Grixis lists blew us out of the water in terms of card filtering.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
But I'm running 3 IOK's? Which seems to be the standard for all the DS lists I've seen.
I remember a few pages ago there was a list that placed top8 which used Nature's Way. I wonder if a Sultai list could be viable by forgoing TBR for the Nature's Way. It doesn't double down so it wouldn't be nearly as useful against something like tron where you want to race, but it would be very useful against midrange/creature decks. Probably a Sideboard tech though, not main deck material.
Draft My Cube!
Sorry, I should have said 'drop any IOKs'. I think running the full 8x discard suite is clutch for Traverse lists, personally, and I really don't understand why we would go down to anything but the full two playsets - especially in exchange for cards like Looting, which we don't really need.
I have no idea where you're looking for reference aside from the two lists that did so well at MKM recently (although I also don't understand why they would drop an IOK for Bolt but fair enough, could be a meta call). Out of the literally dozens of Jund DS lists on MTGGoldfish, I've only found one that runs 3 copies of IOK (for Find/Finality, of all things), and it also has the worst record out of all of them at 5-3. We have always been running 4 IOK and 4 Thoughtseize.
The last thing I want to do on turn 1 is durdle around with cards like Looting instead of interacting with my opponent.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki