I've compiled a list of cards from RNA that might be interesting for us. I'm especially interested in the split cards with two card types (for obvious reasons). My thoughts:
Repudiate // Replicate - The first half puts in work against almost any deck, even if it's just countering a fetch land. The second half helps if you can stick a threat. And then being two card types should be relevant also. But not the most mana-efficient card around.
Collision // Colossus - Blast a flier out of the sky or act as a pseudo-TBR. The first half is probably a little over-costed to be useful. If it were 1-mana to shoot for 3 or 4 damage then I could definitely make a case for this card. As it is, I'm not so sure. What are the scariest things we could be targeting with the first half?
Carnival // Carnage - Again we have two card types, and a a ping on the first half that can target planeswalkers. JTMS and Teferi are rarely dropping to 1 loyalty so I don't know how relevant this is against UWx and the second half is probably a bit underwhelming across the board.
Cindervines - Defish brings up some good applications for this card, and it's an enchantment type so it likely puts tarmogoyf up to 7/8 status.
Immolation Shaman - Could be useful if some sort of neo-pod vizier combo deck makes a comeback. But I guess we already have Harsh Mentor if needed.
Amplifire - This is an odd card. To bring this in from SB as a singleton, could you basically churn it out to have huge power every upkeep (the smallest being a 7/9 from flipping a Street Wraith) but I don't know what match that would be useful for and if the 4 CMC is worth it.
Spawn of Mayhem - Something to SB against UR Phoenix that can dodge their removal and block Phoenix. But I don't know if that match-up is particularly difficult for our archetype anyways (I never have trouble with them).
Sphinx of Foresight - I know this card has been discussed in GDS as a tool to allow you to keep more opening hands. It's probably not realistically castable for even those splashing blue in Traverse shadow however. So it doesn't strike any chords for me (for this deck at least)
Pteramander - This is probably one of the best cards of the whole set. Our multi-cardtype objective here is a bit prohibitive but I could see a list being tailored to support this thing. Personally this makes me wonder if Sultai Shadow finally has it's final piece to become competitive.
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So all that being said, I think likely none of these cards will likely make any showings for this archetype. Personally the only thing I'll actually be testing is a single maindeck Repudiate // Replicate and a single SB Cindervines.
I agree with your assessments Funeral, I think the only card I’m looking to actually test at this point is Cindervines. Repudiate is a neat option that wasn’t originally on my radar, but it provides some unique utility.
I am still looking to record a deck tech, I just haven’t been able to find the time. I was also sick for a week and lost my voice, which didn’t help.
It’s hard to predict, because I don’t think KCI was really suppressing anything, like the effect Dredge had on fair decks in 2016. It really just won a lot while occupying a share of the meta. So I guess I don’t really think much will actually change. I think that Phoenix will continue to pick up steam for a bit longer, as people continue to learn to play against it. I could actually see Amulet Titan picking up a bit, given that it has a similar style to KCI and is enjoying a bit of a renaissance. I consider both to be good matchups, so I’m pretty happy about that.
Pretty funny, but I’m pretty sure there’s no point to Cindervines now, so it looks like Allegiance is a bit of a bust for us.
Got 40 in store credit going 4 and 0 against a janky brew, kci, naya zoo and grixis shadow.
I saw the list from defish on mtggoldfish. 3 maindeck lotv, 1 k command. I think I kept the sideboard the same except shaving 1 cb for 1x grim lavamancer and 1x anger instead of languish
Deck performed well all night.
I have a question about the grixis shadow matchup vs death shadow jund
He sideboarded out 3x mishra baubles, 2x bolts and something else. He kept in 2x battlerages. That's shocking and wrong, right? He was pretty adamant about it and even was a little condescending about it. Was he right? Id like to know since I play both decks
I figured you never boarded out baubles as it smooths out your draws and makes up for playing 17 lands.
I think the KCI ban will help us overall, because people who liked that deck will likely gravitate toward another degenerate deck such as Tron or Lantern which are embarrassingly easy for our archetype to deal with. Even the new flavor UR Phoenix is at least 60/40 for us if not better. What I don't want is more people picking up GDS, BGx, or UWx because those are more difficult.
Regarding TBR and sideboarding: I almost always leave at least 1x TBR post board against just about any deck. For GDS it certainly depends who's on the play g2/g3 but we typically play more discards than them so it's entirely possible you'll just get the drop on them. I feel the same way about Stubborn Denial. Gurmag angler has been tough for me since I rely on Push and Burn for removal mostly. I think I'll start running LOTV back in the maindeck because she really does shore up the GDS face off quite a bit. I've been testing 1x and it feels like my best card against them by far. Maybe I'll try 2 or at least 1MB/1SB
Also I would never board out Baubles. I played against an Infect guy once who said keeping my baubles was a mistake against him and it's better to side them out but I don't agree. If your GDS opponent feels he can shave some baubles and still be consistent with land drops, that's great. For Traverse Shadow it also counts as another card type which arguably the best aspect (for this archetype). It would far less likely to achieve Delirium by turn 2 without Bauble. Tarfire helps too though.
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In a recent list I saw a guy using 3x Engineered Explosives in his SB. Any idea what that's aimed at?
He telegraphed his serum pretty badly when he bottomed both cards immediately.
He was at 1 life left, 2 cards in hand. He had 1x shadow on board. I was at 7 life with a 1x big goyf and 1x shadow. I dont double block and he concedes as he would have dismembered me. Apparently a lot of people would have double blocked. I dont like the idea of doing tbr in a grindy matchup but I guess some people do.
Nice finish, was the Naya Zoo list a big zoo or little zoo one? I haven't played against either with Jund Shadow, so I'm just curious to hear how the games played out. I think those are reasonable changes to make, although I'll be honest that I haven't felt like I needed Lavamancer in this build. If Humans comes back I could see that changing, though.
As far as your GDS question, that's not a way to sideboard that I've explored, but it's an interesting angle. I think the bigger issue is that it seems like cutting Mishra's Bauble is an attempt to improve your top-decks in the late game, but that's completely at odds with keeping Battle Rages in. I'm pretty sure my lists punish that kind of sideboard strategy very hard, because they have access to so much removal.
I've actually started boarding in Fulminators against GDS because of how much they can stumble on mana. With that particular list, I boarded like this:
-2 Temur Battle Rage
-2 Street Wraith
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+2 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Fulminator Mage
I think that on the play, you could also argue for cutting a third Street Wraith for a 3rd Fulminator, which I believe I did in the second IQ I top 8ed.
I'm not sure if I would have double blocked there, did you have any other cards in hand?
This is the list I'm looking to test moving forward:
No big changes, just some minor tweaks and moving things between the main/side boards. I'm really unexcited about playing the 3rd Brutality, but Burn seems to do well against Izzet Phoenix so I don't want to be unprepared. At the same time, I don't really need a third Brutality in any other matchups, so I'm considering something like Duress instead, which is a bit worse against Burn but more generally useful than the third Brutality. I'm also wondering if I should give Scavenging Ooze another shot.
What are all your Trophies aimed at? 3x in the 75 seems excessive but i could be wrong. Also what match up do you foresee needing all 4x Fulminator Mage? I wouldn't count Tron because you don't need the 4th against them. Three should be more than sufficient. FM as a tool against GDS is interesting. You seemto be relying heavily on hitting your third land drop against them. Do you often Traverse for an early basic against GDS?
Anyone catch the list with 3x Engineered Explosives? Check it out
The guy is all-in with 3x TBR but then a Collective Brutality in the maindeck. Any thoughts?
I'm also waffling on the third Trophy. It was originally an Ancient Grudge, but without KCI I don't know if I need the double-tap that Ancient Grudge provides. That led me to Abrade, but I'm a little unexcited about Abrade at the moment. That then led me to Abrupt Decay, which always feels like the 76th card in my deck. The last to get cut, but very often does. After thinking about what I would board it in against (creatures, GDS, Jund, U/W/x, random permanent-based nonsense), I started to consider just going with a third Trophy. It still comes in against those decks, but the range of threats Decay misses and Trophy hits is pretty significant in the matchups where I want it: Worship, Gurmag Angler, Lilianas, Jace, Teferi, and manlands. Trophy also improves my Tron matchup when on the draw, which I'm very interested in.
I love Fulminator Mage. I used to be a lot less excited about it, but years of seeing how Reid Duke uses it really changed the way I view the card. I consider 3 the minimum in straight Jund Shadow, but I can talk about why I like the full 4 right now:
The effect a single Fulminator has in big mana matchups can set your opponent back significantly. Resolving a second one can often put them so far behind that they can't catch up before you kill them. Aside from that, you need to be interacting with their lands or you will just eventually lose to whatever giant win condition they have. The fact that Fulminator is just as effective against Scapeshift as it is Tron as it is Amulet Titan means that the card just covers a lot of matchups.
I heavily rely on Fulminator to execute my post-board plan against U/W/x. In an ideal world, you curve discard into multiple Tarmogoyfs and just overwhelm them. Realistically, you hit them with some discard, play a Goyf, maybe get a hit or two in before it gets answered, then rinse/repeat. Fulminator factors into that at the simplest level by just being another creature, but a single Fulminator on the battlefield can put strain on all of their win conditions. It straight-up answers Colonnade and a flipped Azcanta, and it makes it more suspect for them to tap out for a planeswalker. That's a lot of equity to get from a single card, and Fulminator only gets better in multiples. Additionally, because you can sac it in response to removal, it helps guarantee that you'll have something to get back with K-Command or Liliana, the Last Hope. All of this means that I'm happy to draw any and all Fulminator Mages in my deck, which means I can take advantage of the full 4. I tend to side out Street Wraiths in some number against both decks, so Fulminator also helps maintain a creature in the graveyard for delirium, with the caveat that it's always turn 3 or later. I board in the full 4 here.
I think it's great against traditional Jund. In addition to checking manlands, it makes opposing Liliana of the Veil (one of the most important cards in the matchup) worse, and you can sometimes just make it much harder for them to resolve their 4+ CMC cards. It's also possible to knock them off of red mana for a bit, which can let you build up enough of a board to overwhelm them when they finally draw out of it. I also board in the full 4 here.
I think it's okay against GDS. There are some games where stone raining them is such a blow to their development that they just don't recover in time. There are some games where you draw it when they have a ton of lands in play, and it's just a chump blocker. I've also had games where I keep targeting their red mana and force them to continually fetch/shock, and then they've struggled to cast cards like Dismember. I'm honestly still learning how to use it in the matchup, but I've enjoyed having access to a few copies so far. Like I said above, I only board in 2-3 here.
Land destruction is hilarious against 4c Shadow for obvious reasons. I haven't played against it with my list, but I would board in the full 4 here.
Much like GDS, it's fine in the Jund Shadow mirror at 2-3 copies.
I've started bringing it in against Burn because I want to be able to cut all of my Street Wraiths and Thoughtseizes, and because the hands where they only have 1-2 lands and the rest burn spells are the hardest ones to beat. The last time I played this I brought in the full 4, but I'm not sure if that holds true with my current version.
I lose more matchups against GDS, Jund, and U/W/x because of not being able to play my cards on time than for any other single reason, so I've gotten into the habit of using my first Traverse very aggressively for lands if I think I won't make my third land drop. I think that this is a distinct advantage against GDS, where some hands can struggle to make their first 3 land drops in a timely manner.
I have a hard time calling 3 EE anything other than poor deck building, especially in this deck. GDS runs it because they have no other way to interact with enchantments, I don't really think it solves problems for JDS.
I've actually felt the loss of Ghor-Clan Rampager a bit, and have considered a 3rd TBR in the sideboard. It's all just meta dependent, though. Not a fan of CB in the main at all.
It feels like you're possibly relying too much on artifact decks going away? I think we will see more affinity decks. I wouldn't be shocked if we see more whir lantern.
I forgot I also only played 1 terminate in your list, with 1 dismember. Dismember can involve some of shadows most busted openers.
The zoo deck I played had voices, goyf, scooze, cat, and bbe. It honestly felt like the games came down to who was on the play.
The gds game, I didn't have anything relevant in my hand. He had an opener of like 4 discard so the game felt close.
I see your arguements for 4x fulminators, but that's a lot of 3x drops, no? I dont love the maindeck trophies but maybe you'll know how to go about it.
I was quite happy with how the maindeck felt, I think the 3x lotv is definitely right in this meta.
I actually play against Hardened Scales pretty consistently (it's my testing partner's main deck), and you don't really need actual artifact hate to beat them, just tons of creature removal. The only non-creature artifacts that they play are Animation Module, Welding Jar, and Opal, although Animation Module can be problematic. I'm still figuring out what my discard priority order is, because it feels like everything is top priority, but my strategy mostly boils down to maneuvering the board so I can stick a big threat and start forcing them to block. My list is definitely soft to whir, and the one time I played against it online I really struggled. If the deck picks up more steam then I'll have to concede that slot back to an Ancient Grudge, but I'm not convinced that I need to do that yet.
Dismember definitely plays to the Shadow half of the deck, I think in general the two Terminates can be whatever you want them to be based on your style and meta. I'm still a Jund player at heart, so I've had a hard time letting Terminate go. I also have the pretty full-art ones that I'm always itching to show off.
The 4 Fulminators is a lot of 3 drops, but if I dropped one it would be for a Phyrexian Arena (I've really been impressed by this card in fair matchups, and against KCI of all things), so my curve isn't really going anywhere anyway. In general I've found 3-drops to be pretty okay in this deck, 4-drops are where I start to get nervous.
The Trophies in the main are a direct response to me tracking my winrate and finding that I'm losing a lot of game 1s. KCI being gone has me really reconsidering moving them back into the sideboard, and I'm also thinking about just a 1/1 split of Terminate/Trophy in the main and side. You liking the maindeck without those changes is interesting, and maybe I'm being too results-driven on that decision.
Well, had a miserable TNM last night to a 0-3 finish. Played spirits twice and that matchup feels pretty bad. I think my hands were just horrible for what I had to fight against. Did not draw removal when they had board and did not draw threats when I needed them which felt odd considering how much is in the deck. Wanderer is a pain to play against because they can counter my key spells like Traverse or a removal on a better spirit. First time with the deck and not knowing what to side also sucks. I took out 4 Wraith and boarded in Languish, CB x2 and Abrade. I managed to win a game but it was still very close. The last match was vs Tron and we all know how that can go sometimes. The list is your earlier iteration DeFish, terminates main and a 2 LoTV mb.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Oof, that does sound rough. I'm sorry you had a bad run, but I think I can help.
You actually under-sideboarded for the Spirits matchup, which is likely why you felt like you never had enough removal. With the list you're referring to (which had 3 LotV), my plan was:
-4 Street Wraith
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Abrade
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+2 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Languish
On the draw, I like to cut a second Liliana of the Veil and bring back the third Inquisition. You mentioned that you only had 2 LotV in the main, what were you running instead of the third? I've been consistently underwhelmed by Brutality in this matchup because it just doesn't kill anything, especially if they have lords in play.
In terms of gameplay, I typically play this matchup as if I'm a Jund deck. I'm a bit more conservative with my life total, because eventually you will take chip flying damage from something and you need to not randomly die to it. In general, their curve is much higher than ours, so it's very possible to curve discard -> Goyf -> hold up removal forever. Liliana, the Last Hope doesn't kill a lot in this matchup, but most of their creatures have a base power of 2 or lower, so she's very good at stopping them from racing you while still being a wincon on her own. She also lines up very well against Phantasmal Image and Moorland Haunt. I did lose a bunch as I was learning the matchup, but once you're used to it I do consider it slightly in our favor. They're just a very fair creature deck, and that's one of the things we're built to beat.
I'm interested in how the Tron matchup went for you, because I've found JDS to be extremely dominant every time I've played the matchup. How did you sideboard and mulligan?
Decklist for reference. Like I said, first time playing Jund style so perhaps I mulled hands I should have kept. They lacked threats and the correct interaction (I thought).
Collective Brutality was in to kill indestructible spirits from selfless spirit and hit CoCo's in same turn. As for ATrophy, I felt I didn't want to ramp him into CoCo either.
Tron, first game was quick since I had discard plus two Goyf plan very early. Sideboarding went like, out 3x Fatal Push, 1 Terminate, 1 IoK, in came 2x Trophy, 2x fulminator, 1x Surgical. Never saw fulminator and saw tropy a turn too late since he enough to Ulamog a turn after that. Had to surgical wurmcoils before I saw a tropy to blast urza land too. He also played Relics to keep me off traverse and TKS exiled a shadow. I had a shadow in play but he had two wurm tokens and TKS which was lethal any way I chose to block.
Going to take some getting used to on which hands to keep. I mulled the ones that didn't have a threat basically. I'm used to playing GDS like this. I know Traverse is there for that reason but if you can't enable delirium then the hand looks subpar. Need more reps in to learn the ins and outs.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Okay, this list definitely has the tools you need. This might even line up better against them than my original list that I was referencing before. With your exact list, I would go:
-4 Street Wraith
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Abrade
+1 Abrupt Decay
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+1 Fatal Push
+1 Languish
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
The same caveat applies of going down to 1 LotV when on the draw for the third Inquisition. Trophy really isn't for their creatures, it's for everything else. Worship, Rest in Peace, and Moorland Haunt can all be deciding factors in the matchup, and you won't always be able to tag them with discard. I've honestly loved having access to Assassin's Trophy to deal with Gavony Township and Moorland Haunt in Coco matchups, where I used to either have to board in a Fulminator (which is not great) or just hope to not lose to it.
That game 1 is my general experience with the matchup, haha. I would sideboard a little differently, though:
-3 Fatal Push
-2 Terminate
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-2 Liliana of the Veil
Over time, I've found K-Command and Liliana to just be too slow and clunky, and your removal is pretty pointless.
This matchup is all about interacting with their lands. I generally find it relatively easy to win on the play (assuming my deck functions normally), and difficult to win on the draw. This means that winning game 1 gives you a big leg up in the match, since you're guaranteed to play a post-board game on the play. On the draw, I'm looking for my 7 card hand to have either multiple discard spells leading to a turn 2 Shadow, or Assassin's Trophy. I'll generally mulligan hands without one of those things, but once I get to 6 cards I'm willing to keep any hand with a discard spell and turn 2 threat.
I found this deck harder to learn than GDS. Stubborn Denial can really bail you out of poor life total management and wrong discard choices, and also allows you to play more reactionary. JDS asks you to think farther ahead and plan at the beginning of the game how you'll manage your opponent's top decks, which I found required a combination of experience playing the deck and familiarity with individual matchups.
Neither one features a straight Jund build, but the way he manages his life total and how he works through discard decisions helped me a ton when I was trying to learn the deck. In particular, he plays a match against Jeskai in one of them that has some very challenging Thoughtseizes that are interesting to look at. I also think Reid is just one of the best people to watch to improve at the game, he's just so thorough and deliberate in his thought process.
I was able to sorta blindly sideboard ok since, like you said, this feels like a hyper jund. When I need to take the control route that's when side out wraiths, 2x lotv on the draw, etc.
If I feel conflicted with no super clear cut plan I'll shave a wraith, 1x tarfire, 1x iok, etc.
Your sideboard plans are what I basically did minus the fulminator mage.
I did find the mana being 3 colors so smooth. Made life easier. I usually fetch for getting the overgrown and crypt first and then get the second tomb as my third land.
Beating kci on the draw with a mull to 5 felt nice.
I think maybe you're being slightly results oriented? I think maybe 1 main trophy could be a good compromise. I compromised with your list and played 1 dismember and 1 terminate.
Gonna see if I can repeat and get a 3 and 1 record. The jund approach it had and not being so tempo felt nice. Grixis shadow is definitely less grindy than it was a year ago.
I was impressed with the main deck. Not sure what I'd really change in the main. Still testing ghor clan as he wasnt used. Sometime he telegraphs our plan.
I kinda gave up using cb on these creature decks with lords. Its been too underwhelming with my experience with this archetype in general. Unless you have some bad card in the main.
I wouldn't be shocked if k command could be replaced with 1x trophy. Dunno though. I dont see too many flex spots
In the dark, with access to 2 fetchlands, I actually prefer to fetch the Blood Crypt first, preferably with a Bloodstained Mire. It partly makes it more ambiguous what you're playing, but sometimes you discover you're up against Burn or whatever and need to go into life preservation mode. In that case, being able to fetch a Forest on turn 2 lets you still have access to all 3 colors without having to shock again.
Some of the 5-card hands you can see are hilarious, I recently had a game against Tron where we both mulled to 5 and I attacked for 12 on turn 3. In general I find that JDS mulligans a bit better than GDS.
I'm currently looking to run a third TBR instead of Rampager, but I may audible that to an Abrupt Decay for local tournaments, since my local meta tends to be very fair.
I like Brutality against Humans because it kills so many of their creatures and because their ability to race is a bit more explosive thanks to Mantis Rider, so the life gain can be relevant.
My math puts that at 55 cards. I typically like to use the last few slots this way:
1-2 3CMC cards that have applications in fair matchups. Typically this is some combination of Lilianas and K-Command.
2 2CMC cards that can remove creatures that Fatal Push can't. Typically this is either Assassin's Trophy or Terminate, but Dismember works with the caveat that it can't hit Primeval Titan. I would look to include an extra something that can come in against Titan decks in the sideboard when running Dismember.
1-2 2CMC or less cards that round out the removal suite for the given meta. Right now I'm looking at cards like Fatal Push and Abrupt Decay for this.
At a higher level, I've historically liked having at least 1 maindeck answer to artifacts, and am happier with 2. Part of the reason I'm running Trophies over Terminate in the main is because I'm interested in cutting K-Command but don't want to be cold to Chalice or Ensnaring Bridge in game 1.
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Repudiate // Replicate - The first half puts in work against almost any deck, even if it's just countering a fetch land. The second half helps if you can stick a threat. And then being two card types should be relevant also. But not the most mana-efficient card around.
Collision // Colossus - Blast a flier out of the sky or act as a pseudo-TBR. The first half is probably a little over-costed to be useful. If it were 1-mana to shoot for 3 or 4 damage then I could definitely make a case for this card. As it is, I'm not so sure. What are the scariest things we could be targeting with the first half?
Carnival // Carnage - Again we have two card types, and a a ping on the first half that can target planeswalkers. JTMS and Teferi are rarely dropping to 1 loyalty so I don't know how relevant this is against UWx and the second half is probably a bit underwhelming across the board.
Cindervines - Defish brings up some good applications for this card, and it's an enchantment type so it likely puts tarmogoyf up to 7/8 status.
Immolation Shaman - Could be useful if some sort of neo-pod vizier combo deck makes a comeback. But I guess we already have Harsh Mentor if needed.
Amplifire - This is an odd card. To bring this in from SB as a singleton, could you basically churn it out to have huge power every upkeep (the smallest being a 7/9 from flipping a Street Wraith) but I don't know what match that would be useful for and if the 4 CMC is worth it.
Spawn of Mayhem - Something to SB against UR Phoenix that can dodge their removal and block Phoenix. But I don't know if that match-up is particularly difficult for our archetype anyways (I never have trouble with them).
Sphinx of Foresight - I know this card has been discussed in GDS as a tool to allow you to keep more opening hands. It's probably not realistically castable for even those splashing blue in Traverse shadow however. So it doesn't strike any chords for me (for this deck at least)
Pteramander - This is probably one of the best cards of the whole set. Our multi-cardtype objective here is a bit prohibitive but I could see a list being tailored to support this thing. Personally this makes me wonder if Sultai Shadow finally has it's final piece to become competitive.
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So all that being said, I think likely none of these cards will likely make any showings for this archetype. Personally the only thing I'll actually be testing is a single maindeck Repudiate // Replicate and a single SB Cindervines.
Draft My Cube!
@DeFish: are you still thinking about doing that deck tech? It'd be much appreciated as far as I'm concerned!
In other news, 4C Shadow top8s MCM Bologna (169 players), losing to Arclight Mentor in the quarterfinals.
Decklists:
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/coverage-mkm-series-bologna-2019-modern/#top8decks
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I am still looking to record a deck tech, I just haven’t been able to find the time. I was also sick for a week and lost my voice, which didn’t help.
Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Pretty funny, but I’m pretty sure there’s no point to Cindervines now, so it looks like Allegiance is a bit of a bust for us.
I saw the list from defish on mtggoldfish. 3 maindeck lotv, 1 k command. I think I kept the sideboard the same except shaving 1 cb for 1x grim lavamancer and 1x anger instead of languish
Deck performed well all night.
I have a question about the grixis shadow matchup vs death shadow jund
He sideboarded out 3x mishra baubles, 2x bolts and something else. He kept in 2x battlerages. That's shocking and wrong, right? He was pretty adamant about it and even was a little condescending about it. Was he right? Id like to know since I play both decks
I figured you never boarded out baubles as it smooths out your draws and makes up for playing 17 lands.
Regarding TBR and sideboarding: I almost always leave at least 1x TBR post board against just about any deck. For GDS it certainly depends who's on the play g2/g3 but we typically play more discards than them so it's entirely possible you'll just get the drop on them. I feel the same way about Stubborn Denial. Gurmag angler has been tough for me since I rely on Push and Burn for removal mostly. I think I'll start running LOTV back in the maindeck because she really does shore up the GDS face off quite a bit. I've been testing 1x and it feels like my best card against them by far. Maybe I'll try 2 or at least 1MB/1SB
Also I would never board out Baubles. I played against an Infect guy once who said keeping my baubles was a mistake against him and it's better to side them out but I don't agree. If your GDS opponent feels he can shave some baubles and still be consistent with land drops, that's great. For Traverse Shadow it also counts as another card type which arguably the best aspect (for this archetype). It would far less likely to achieve Delirium by turn 2 without Bauble. Tarfire helps too though.
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In a recent list I saw a guy using 3x Engineered Explosives in his SB. Any idea what that's aimed at?
Draft My Cube!
2x goyf, 1x fatal push, 1x lotv, 1x thoughtseize, 2x fetches.
He telegraphed his serum pretty badly when he bottomed both cards immediately.
He was at 1 life left, 2 cards in hand. He had 1x shadow on board. I was at 7 life with a 1x big goyf and 1x shadow. I dont double block and he concedes as he would have dismembered me. Apparently a lot of people would have double blocked. I dont like the idea of doing tbr in a grindy matchup but I guess some people do.
As far as your GDS question, that's not a way to sideboard that I've explored, but it's an interesting angle. I think the bigger issue is that it seems like cutting Mishra's Bauble is an attempt to improve your top-decks in the late game, but that's completely at odds with keeping Battle Rages in. I'm pretty sure my lists punish that kind of sideboard strategy very hard, because they have access to so much removal.
I've actually started boarding in Fulminators against GDS because of how much they can stumble on mana. With that particular list, I boarded like this:
-2 Temur Battle Rage
-2 Street Wraith
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+2 Liliana, the Last Hope
+2 Fulminator Mage
I think that on the play, you could also argue for cutting a third Street Wraith for a 3rd Fulminator, which I believe I did in the second IQ I top 8ed.
I'm not sure if I would have double blocked there, did you have any other cards in hand?
This is the list I'm looking to test moving forward:
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wooded Foothills
Artifact (4)
4x Mishra's Bauble
Instant (10)
2x Assassin's Trophy
4x Fatal Push
2x Tarfire
2x Temur Battle Rage
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
Creature (12)
4x Death's Shadow
4x Street Wraith
4x Tarmogoyf
Planeswalker (4)
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Assassin's Trophy
3x Collective Brutality
4x Fulminator Mage
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Terminate
No big changes, just some minor tweaks and moving things between the main/side boards. I'm really unexcited about playing the 3rd Brutality, but Burn seems to do well against Izzet Phoenix so I don't want to be unprepared. At the same time, I don't really need a third Brutality in any other matchups, so I'm considering something like Duress instead, which is a bit worse against Burn but more generally useful than the third Brutality. I'm also wondering if I should give Scavenging Ooze another shot.
Anyone catch the list with 3x Engineered Explosives? Check it out
The guy is all-in with 3x TBR but then a Collective Brutality in the maindeck. Any thoughts?
Draft My Cube!
I love Fulminator Mage. I used to be a lot less excited about it, but years of seeing how Reid Duke uses it really changed the way I view the card. I consider 3 the minimum in straight Jund Shadow, but I can talk about why I like the full 4 right now:
I lose more matchups against GDS, Jund, and U/W/x because of not being able to play my cards on time than for any other single reason, so I've gotten into the habit of using my first Traverse very aggressively for lands if I think I won't make my third land drop. I think that this is a distinct advantage against GDS, where some hands can struggle to make their first 3 land drops in a timely manner.
I have a hard time calling 3 EE anything other than poor deck building, especially in this deck. GDS runs it because they have no other way to interact with enchantments, I don't really think it solves problems for JDS.
I've actually felt the loss of Ghor-Clan Rampager a bit, and have considered a 3rd TBR in the sideboard. It's all just meta dependent, though. Not a fan of CB in the main at all.
I forgot I also only played 1 terminate in your list, with 1 dismember. Dismember can involve some of shadows most busted openers.
The zoo deck I played had voices, goyf, scooze, cat, and bbe. It honestly felt like the games came down to who was on the play.
The gds game, I didn't have anything relevant in my hand. He had an opener of like 4 discard so the game felt close.
I see your arguements for 4x fulminators, but that's a lot of 3x drops, no? I dont love the maindeck trophies but maybe you'll know how to go about it.
I was quite happy with how the maindeck felt, I think the 3x lotv is definitely right in this meta.
Dismember definitely plays to the Shadow half of the deck, I think in general the two Terminates can be whatever you want them to be based on your style and meta. I'm still a Jund player at heart, so I've had a hard time letting Terminate go. I also have the pretty full-art ones that I'm always itching to show off.
The 4 Fulminators is a lot of 3 drops, but if I dropped one it would be for a Phyrexian Arena (I've really been impressed by this card in fair matchups, and against KCI of all things), so my curve isn't really going anywhere anyway. In general I've found 3-drops to be pretty okay in this deck, 4-drops are where I start to get nervous.
The Trophies in the main are a direct response to me tracking my winrate and finding that I'm losing a lot of game 1s. KCI being gone has me really reconsidering moving them back into the sideboard, and I'm also thinking about just a 1/1 split of Terminate/Trophy in the main and side. You liking the maindeck without those changes is interesting, and maybe I'm being too results-driven on that decision.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
You actually under-sideboarded for the Spirits matchup, which is likely why you felt like you never had enough removal. With the list you're referring to (which had 3 LotV), my plan was:
-4 Street Wraith
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Abrade
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+2 Liliana, the Last Hope
+1 Languish
On the draw, I like to cut a second Liliana of the Veil and bring back the third Inquisition. You mentioned that you only had 2 LotV in the main, what were you running instead of the third? I've been consistently underwhelmed by Brutality in this matchup because it just doesn't kill anything, especially if they have lords in play.
In terms of gameplay, I typically play this matchup as if I'm a Jund deck. I'm a bit more conservative with my life total, because eventually you will take chip flying damage from something and you need to not randomly die to it. In general, their curve is much higher than ours, so it's very possible to curve discard -> Goyf -> hold up removal forever. Liliana, the Last Hope doesn't kill a lot in this matchup, but most of their creatures have a base power of 2 or lower, so she's very good at stopping them from racing you while still being a wincon on her own. She also lines up very well against Phantasmal Image and Moorland Haunt. I did lose a bunch as I was learning the matchup, but once you're used to it I do consider it slightly in our favor. They're just a very fair creature deck, and that's one of the things we're built to beat.
I'm interested in how the Tron matchup went for you, because I've found JDS to be extremely dominant every time I've played the matchup. How did you sideboard and mulligan?
Collective Brutality was in to kill indestructible spirits from selfless spirit and hit CoCo's in same turn. As for ATrophy, I felt I didn't want to ramp him into CoCo either.
Tron, first game was quick since I had discard plus two Goyf plan very early. Sideboarding went like, out 3x Fatal Push, 1 Terminate, 1 IoK, in came 2x Trophy, 2x fulminator, 1x Surgical. Never saw fulminator and saw tropy a turn too late since he enough to Ulamog a turn after that. Had to surgical wurmcoils before I saw a tropy to blast urza land too. He also played Relics to keep me off traverse and TKS exiled a shadow. I had a shadow in play but he had two wurm tokens and TKS which was lethal any way I chose to block.
Going to take some getting used to on which hands to keep. I mulled the ones that didn't have a threat basically. I'm used to playing GDS like this. I know Traverse is there for that reason but if you can't enable delirium then the hand looks subpar. Need more reps in to learn the ins and outs.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
-4 Street Wraith
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Abrade
+1 Abrupt Decay
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+1 Fatal Push
+1 Languish
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope
The same caveat applies of going down to 1 LotV when on the draw for the third Inquisition. Trophy really isn't for their creatures, it's for everything else. Worship, Rest in Peace, and Moorland Haunt can all be deciding factors in the matchup, and you won't always be able to tag them with discard. I've honestly loved having access to Assassin's Trophy to deal with Gavony Township and Moorland Haunt in Coco matchups, where I used to either have to board in a Fulminator (which is not great) or just hope to not lose to it.
That game 1 is my general experience with the matchup, haha. I would sideboard a little differently, though:
-3 Fatal Push
-2 Terminate
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-2 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Abrade
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+3 Fulminator Mage
+2 Surgical Extraction
Over time, I've found K-Command and Liliana to just be too slow and clunky, and your removal is pretty pointless.
This matchup is all about interacting with their lands. I generally find it relatively easy to win on the play (assuming my deck functions normally), and difficult to win on the draw. This means that winning game 1 gives you a big leg up in the match, since you're guaranteed to play a post-board game on the play. On the draw, I'm looking for my 7 card hand to have either multiple discard spells leading to a turn 2 Shadow, or Assassin's Trophy. I'll generally mulligan hands without one of those things, but once I get to 6 cards I'm willing to keep any hand with a discard spell and turn 2 threat.
I found this deck harder to learn than GDS. Stubborn Denial can really bail you out of poor life total management and wrong discard choices, and also allows you to play more reactionary. JDS asks you to think farther ahead and plan at the beginning of the game how you'll manage your opponent's top decks, which I found required a combination of experience playing the deck and familiarity with individual matchups.
I would also recommend checking out these videos by Reid Duke:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNxCFcv4A-U&t=37s
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ualYZpeebc
Neither one features a straight Jund build, but the way he manages his life total and how he works through discard decisions helped me a ton when I was trying to learn the deck. In particular, he plays a match against Jeskai in one of them that has some very challenging Thoughtseizes that are interesting to look at. I also think Reid is just one of the best people to watch to improve at the game, he's just so thorough and deliberate in his thought process.
If I feel conflicted with no super clear cut plan I'll shave a wraith, 1x tarfire, 1x iok, etc.
Your sideboard plans are what I basically did minus the fulminator mage.
I did find the mana being 3 colors so smooth. Made life easier. I usually fetch for getting the overgrown and crypt first and then get the second tomb as my third land.
Beating kci on the draw with a mull to 5 felt nice.
I think maybe you're being slightly results oriented? I think maybe 1 main trophy could be a good compromise. I compromised with your list and played 1 dismember and 1 terminate.
Gonna see if I can repeat and get a 3 and 1 record. The jund approach it had and not being so tempo felt nice. Grixis shadow is definitely less grindy than it was a year ago.
I was impressed with the main deck. Not sure what I'd really change in the main. Still testing ghor clan as he wasnt used. Sometime he telegraphs our plan.
I kinda gave up using cb on these creature decks with lords. Its been too underwhelming with my experience with this archetype in general. Unless you have some bad card in the main.
I wouldn't be shocked if k command could be replaced with 1x trophy. Dunno though. I dont see too many flex spots
Some of the 5-card hands you can see are hilarious, I recently had a game against Tron where we both mulled to 5 and I attacked for 12 on turn 3. In general I find that JDS mulligans a bit better than GDS.
I'm currently looking to run a third TBR instead of Rampager, but I may audible that to an Abrupt Decay for local tournaments, since my local meta tends to be very fair.
I like Brutality against Humans because it kills so many of their creatures and because their ability to race is a bit more explosive thanks to Mantis Rider, so the life gain can be relevant.
I consider the mandatory core of the deck to be:
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Liliana of the Veil
Instant (7)
3x Fatal Push
2x Tarfire
2x Temur Battle Rage
Sorcery (12)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
4x Death's Shadow
4x Street Wraith
4x Tarmogoyf
Artifact (4)
4x Mishra's Bauble
My math puts that at 55 cards. I typically like to use the last few slots this way:
At a higher level, I've historically liked having at least 1 maindeck answer to artifacts, and am happier with 2. Part of the reason I'm running Trophies over Terminate in the main is because I'm interested in cutting K-Command but don't want to be cold to Chalice or Ensnaring Bridge in game 1.