Great to hear. I’m encouraged by that, Siegel. I feel like I’ve made a good choice. Can’t wait to throw this pile of cards together (still waiting for them to come in the mail). I’ve been solitaire-ing on Cockatrice with your 60 just to get a feel for the deck. I’m waiting ‘til I actually have the paper so I can play people I know up at my LGS. I feel like they’ll be more gracious and patient as I blunder my way to basic familiarity with the deck than the often-impatient a**holes on Cockatrice. But man, it’s crazy how quickly you can dig/search through your deck. I think it’s going to be a hoot.
Yeah, man, wait until you experience stumbling through the deck. During me waiting in-between rounds I watched some of the Jund players play their opponents grixis shadow decks; they were really fumbling all about. It was fun to watch as a Jund player since it's just part of that experience. Your time with Jund/GBx doesn't translate quite as smoothly as you'd think into the shadow decks. I do feel as though the Shadow decks play the way jund players wished it would.
What was also nice is that against my grixis opponent game 2 I had 2 baubles, discard and a traverse. I managed to scry like 3 lands and smooth my hand out with just finding what I wanted with those scries. The play to these decks make me excited. Humans now down-ticking is fun, too.
Grixis Shadow was in 1st place this weekend in Liverpool and Portland. With humans going down it's becoming a good time again.
I play at a really competitive store in Philly, but last night was not accurate of what the modern meta looks like. There was so much Jund and Jeskai, it was really strange. I don't know if it's a Philly thing or what. In Texas I rarely ever went a night without seeing either 1 Tron deck or 1 Burn deck. Philly likes it's fair decks.
I couldn't enjoy the Shadow decks when everyone was playing maindeck Auriok Champs, Colossus, etc in the main deck.
The Philly/South Jersey area always seems more fair than the rest of the modern format, it’s really bizarre. I’m glad you’re liking the 4-Color version, and I very much agree that Traverse Shadow plays out the way you always wants Jund to. Your average hands are the Jund nuts, which is a pretty decent place to be.
Is that the IQ at the Comic Book Store? I’m also looking to go, but I’m still waffling between 3/4 colors.
Yep, at glassboro NJ. You wanna cheer me on as I 0-2 and walk out in shame?
4 colors feels right to me, man. I think there was maybe 1 game where I wish I had a stomping ground or something to traverse and shadow. Just save the catacombs as the last fetchland and you'll be fine. Stubborn denial on shriekhorn last night made my opponent just completely flounder on dredging and finding no land.
You should play with what your gut tells you to, though. You'll be more frustrated if you do poorly from advice from a stranger on the internet.
I'm banking on seeing no burn players there which is a risky meta call. I also need to dodge jund or jeskai as those matchups feel 70 30 to me, possibly worse.
To me, the blue feels worth it. We are shocking our life total, it's not a penalty. Uw also on a massive downswing and field of ruins is being seen in just Rock.
You also may know what that stores meta looks like? I dont. If it's a lot of midrange and creature decks maybe you are better with jund shadow. Dont ruin your play practice with a last second decision. Thats what fnms and mtgo practice rooms are for
Ah, I see we're going into this with the same strategy.
I played a lot of 4/5 color last fall and it felt really robust and powerful, I've had it in mind as a fallback if I didn't feel like the 3-color version was performing. I think I'm just at a point where I'm trying to figure out if one really is better than the other on a general scale, or if they're so close that it doesn't matter. Matchups like Burn and KCI do seem like they'd be a bit easier with access to Stub, but against the creature decks I can really feel the effects of the extra couple removal spells.
I stopped losing to Dredge with Grixis Shadow when I realized that you could Stub all of their turn 1 plays, and then play a discard spell on your turn 2 to cleanly answer Cathartic Reunion. That obviously only works on the play, and only matters if you have those two spells in hand, but I think it's a common scenario and you can use it to snowball an advantage.
I feel like I could play both decks to a similar level, given that the switch to 4-color really only changes how you sideboard in some matchups and how you sequence your fetches. I think I would run a slightly different sideboard than yours though, I'm not a big fan of giving my opponent targets for Nature's Claim and I've really liked how Surgical Extraction operates in all of the Shadow decks.
My problem with 4-color has always been the consistency of the manabase. I like that your list plays 12 fetches and 6 mana producing lands, because where I think the mana fell apart in the past was trying to squeeze in the 7th mana producing land.
I haven't really played in paper in about 2 months, but historically the regulars at the shop tend to play a bit more fair, but IQ's can be a total crapshoot in terms of what the general field looks like. There's one shop regular that plays burn, but beyond that it's not over-represented at all. In general the IQ field there tends to be pretty open, but skews more towards what you would expect at an SCG Open than a GP.
The 12 fetched help and 6 mana is all I could ask for
I do understand your reservations about giving people targets for natures claims. What can also occur is that they keep a slow hand because they have that natures claim. The truth is, if my hand is damn good I wont mull for that leyline. I'll jam my own plan. I had plenty of games I was happy to see just good old discard into a fast clock. I could see myself playing 2x surgicals and 1 spellbomb, or 3x surgicals. I'd love to squeeze in that 4th push or 1st copy of collective brutality.
Any chance you'd post your 75 on both decks you're considering so I could bounce ideas off of you?
The extra removal is nice...but like ive said, I've also experienced too often having too much removal in hand and needing to put an instant in the grave to set up traverse. Me having 3x stubs also makes me feel better having 7 discard instead of 8. Which means stub can be a better late game card if I'm the aggressor.
The looting also makes me feel more comfortable playing leyline.
Alpine moon is fantastic and also hilarious against valalut decks. If tron wants to bring in natures claim thats fine. I wouldn't lean on a bad opener just to play alpine moon. The only decks I feel I can't jam my linear plan is on the draw against tribal decks. Thats when I lean on really wanting either 2 removals or 1 mass removal.
I think if you expect to see a TON of tribal you should go jund. I personally like to create builds with some diversity. It may be a lazier excuse not to meta call the shadow deck but I want some game against everything that isnt jeskai or jund. Or burn.
You may see me totally ***** the bed and lose 2 quick ones. You never know how it'll go.
If you see a decently amount of foiled out shadow it's probably me, by the way.
Yeah, that was the common configuration until Field of Ruin was released and a lot of decks were experimenting with it, then the 7th fetchable almost became mandatory. It's interesting to see Traverse moving back to that configuration while Grixis embraces the 17 land version with 7 fetchables, though I think it also plays to the strengths of both decks. Grixis can do more with its excess mana via Snapcaster or just cantripping, while Traverse basically just plays 1-2 spells per turn after turn 3.
It's interesting that you mention not mulliganing to Leyline if you have a hand that can execute your plan well, because that exact trend is why I stopped running it. If you don't actually need Leyline to win, then I'm not as interested in dedicating 4 sideboard slots to it. When I originally moved away from Leyline I started with a 2/2 split of Spellbomb and Surgical, and I've gradually trimmed that to just the Surgicals. Surgical just makes your Snapcasters so much better as an early game play, my plan with Grixis against Dredge on the draw is basically spending turns 1-3 is stripping dredgers and casting/flashing back Surgical. I could see you needing at least a 3rd piece of hate if you're not running Snapcaster, though, in which case I really like Spellbomb. Spellbomb is probably also a good inclusion for you because it can give you an edge against Grixis Shadow, which can be a difficult matchup for either deck to really establish an advantage in. Have you played much against other Shadow decks?
I ran into issues with having a hand full of removal against decks without creatures, but that was in lists running 4 Push and 2 Dismember. With the list I posted a page or so ago I haven't really run into that issue, or its been mitigated to where I'm not noticing it as much.
I've always liked the idea of Alpine Moon in Grixis because it's so cheap to get online, and Grixis does a decent job of protecting it. I suppose I could see that working out for any Shadow deck running Stubborn Denial, although I really like Fulminator in Traverse for a lot of other reasons.
I forgot that you usually foil your stuff out, I'll keep my eyes open. I have a straight *****in' Majora's Mask playmat that's pretty hard to miss.
My Jund list hasn't changed from what I posted before, and if I were to run a 4-Color one I might actually just run your main deck, which I like. I would swap your Alpine Moon's for Fulminators, and instead of the Leylines I would try to get away with 2 Surgical, 1 Spellbomb, and a Hazoret, which is a personal favorite of mine. That would give the list a few more options for its fair matchups while (hopefully) not really sacrificing many percentage points against everything else. That's all without having actually played the list though, and it's very possible that Fulminator is just not reasonable with that mana base.
I'm also back to considering Grixis, because I live for indecision.
Kinda sounds like you talked yourself into playing Grixis Shadow this weekend. Truthfully I think it's a good plan. I've been playing both.
I dislike Fulminator in this deck a lot. Too slow, too clunky. I want to bypass people's important land and just kill them. Alpine Moon is also one mana, so the tempo game goes along nicely with it.
I see a great argument for 2x surgicals, 1 spellbomb and 1x Hazoret. I'd be down to run Hazoret. I won't do it at the IQ but I may run like 3x surgicals and a Haz in next weeks FNM.
I played a fairly mediocre league with Grixis Shadow last night, so I think I'm definitely registering Tarmogoyf's this weekend. I'm actually leaning back towards 4 color, but I don't quite understand why a lot of lists are playing 2 blue shocklands with only the 4 Stubborn Denial in the 75 as blue cards. From your list, I'm inclined to drop the Breeding Pool for a Blood Crypt.
If I had better sideboard cards for fair matchups I'd ditch Fulminator, but I like picking up a few percentage points against U/W/x and B/G/x in a sideboard that otherwise has very little to offer there.
I'm slowly leaning towards 3 Surgicals because of how well it lines up against the Phoenix decks, particularly Izzet.
15 SIDEBOARD
1 Assasin's Trophy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Godless Shrine
3 Lingering Souls
1 Hazoret the Fervent
So, I have kept the white sideboard splash (I know not everybody likes this option). I have changed the Grim Flayer by a Ghor-Clan Rampager, in order to have a kind of travesable demi-TBR. Keep also Hazoret and increase a bit GY hate (3 cards now)because lot of Dredge.
I tried to not play blue, but most of your comments changed my mind. IMHO my problem was that I played bad the Stubs, keeping them in hand waiting for delirium. Need to play them in early turns when opponent is fully tap.
I trimmed 1x LOTV because right now she is not impressing me. Replaced her copy with the 2nd Dismember.
I am making a huge meta call and hoping to see a ton of combo/creature/tribal decks. I am ABSOLUTELY screwed if I see a ton of fair, heavy removal decks. I'll have very little game except for busted openers.
3x Surgicals seems like the right call. I think in Grixis I'd still play 4x Leylines.
I was going to make the Izzet Staticaster a collective brutality but decided I should really just lean into my meta call of not seeing burn if I'm going to do this.
Phantom Images and something like Scales made me think Izzet Staticaster may be a decent call.
Honestly, I'm a little nervous. I usually like to make safe, lazier calls where I feel prepped for a lot. I'm kinda really trying to hit a lottery pairing here, where, according to Defish, is quite the fair state.
I'll see. If I bomb the first two rounds at least I'll have a lot of that Saturday
Combo/creature/tribal decks do tend to be well-represented there, so you can't be too far off the mark.
I like the positioning of Staticaster against Spirits and Humans, since they're now leaning so hard on Reflector Mage to win matchups against decks with bigger creatures. While it can't kill Reflector Mage, Staticaster can block it and help buy time until you're able to re-deploy whatever was bounced.
I've actually found Burn to be reasonable as long as you're packing all 4 Stubs and are extremely conservative with your life total. Given the choice, against Burn I like fetching a Swamp turn 1 to play discard or kill something, then a forest turn 2 to play a Tarmogoyf, and then my third land I'll try to fetch a tapped red or blue source, depending on my hand. That's probably a little less feasible with your manabase, but being that extremely conservative with your life total can be the difference between winning and losing the matchup.
I'm also on 3 Surgicals and liking how it lines up against the meta right now.
This is what I'm currently looking at for Saturday:
This deck plays out like a hyper-aggressive version of the classic Jund strategy of "strip your most relevant cards, beat you down with a hyper-efficient creature that you can't profitably block, and constrain your remaining resources with Liliana." Running 3 LotV in the main also lets this deck go toe-to-toe with the U/W and bigger B/G/x decks, because she tends to be such a good card in those matchups.
I think you freaked me out enough that I may keep the 2nd lotv.
If we get matched up you're going to have an edge on me based on your removal.
Question...bringing up surgical extraction in this mirror? Is that idiotic? We only run 8 creatures and theres likely to be some grind into who runs out of removal.
I've waffled a lot on how many copies I want, because when she's bad she's a dead card but when she's good she's incredible. Given that you're running a pair of Faithless Lootings, I think you're pretty safe to run the second.
The reason I can't get away from a straight Jund approach is specifically because of how good my removal suite is. The 4-color version is close, but I really like being able to play Terminate over Dismember. In an earlier iteration I was running Abrupt Decay instead of the K-Command in the main and was surprised by how useful it often was. For as much as we rag on that card because of the things it can't answer, it's still incredibly versatile for a maindeck card.
I still think it's a mistake to bring in Surgical against any Shadow variant. Because these decks don't run much card advantage, often times the winner seems to be the player who can make the most impactful use of their spells in jockeying for board position. Because Surgical doesn't affect the board, and because it's dependent on something else putting a creature in the graveyard first, I don't think its worth it. Additionally, I don't think there's anything that I would want to cut for it. And even though we're only running 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Shadow, we're also running Street Wraith, LotV, and Lily, the Last Hope as win conditions. And that's ignoring sideboard options like Hazoret, Scavenging Ooze, Fulminator Mage, and Snapcaster. The best Surgical someone ever used against me was when I was on Jund Traverse, they Inquisitioned a Goyf and Surgicaled it to hit the other 2 in my hand, and I still won that game because all of that card investment didn't stop me from slamming a Liliana of the Veil on my turn 3 that shut the game down for my opponent. I think that just having more removal will always be better than Surgical.
My problem with LOTV in this deck (and metagame) is just like you said: when she's bad, she's awful. She's near useless against Spirits, Affinity, Tron, and barely a Tribute to Hunger against Burn. She's only ok against Humans but mostly if you're on the offensive. I've played 1-2 copies in quite a few competitive events and I was disappointed to see 90% of the time. I dropped her when I started running manamorphose and haven't looked back. It gives the deck more of a "Exarch Twin" feel than an "Aggressive Jund" feel. It streamlines the approach: disrupt, fatty, protect, lethal
Man, I really like Lili against Burn, at least in Jund. I can’t say how she feels in this deck because I haven’t been able to get the reps in yet, but I can’t imagine she’s bad against Burn. She’s always performed really well for me in that MU for soaking up a ton of damage that would’ve gone to my face otherwise.
Sorry to be the new guy to the deck suggesting off-the-wall cards for the SB, but has anyone ever thought about playing Painful Truths for the grindy MU’s? I just saw it in a Junk deck and hadn’t previously considered it for Modern, but it seems decent here. Converge is easy for us and the “pain” part of the card goes along with our plan.
Edit: I guess it has in fact been considered. I just found a bunch of lists last year running it. I wonder why it hasn’t shown up this year? I guess “the grind” isn’t much of a concern right now.
Bro, this thread isn't exactly super lively, don't be afraid to ask. I guess it depends how slow your meta is? I think I'd rather play a first copy of Hazoret or some kind of Lilly.
So, I bombed out at the IQ. My first match was against BG. Game 1 my opponent mulled to a 6 lander and stuck on 1 land for a bit but he had enough pushes and goyfs to get there. Game 2 he discarded and surgicaled my shadow.
Match 2 was infect. She had it foiled out so she knew her stuff. It was stressful and I won game 3.
Lost two close ones against Scales and dropped.
DeFish on the other hand, was steamrolling everyone and I'm 90% confident he was able to ID into top 8. I think he made the right call, Jund Shadow was the way to go. The blue wasn't very relevant for me today in all 3 matches. There were way more fair decks than I thought.
I bought into Izzet Phoenix and Storm with trading in my UW Control staples so I didn't feel too bad. Also won the door prize of a dice bag which was traded for a nice Liliana play-mat.
I still think the shadow decks are worth playing more than regular Jund/Rock, despite my performance.
My problem with LOTV in this deck (and metagame) is just like you said: when she's bad, she's awful. She's near useless against Spirits, Affinity, Tron, and barely a Tribute to Hunger against Burn. She's only ok against Humans but mostly if you're on the offensive. I've played 1-2 copies in quite a few competitive events and I was disappointed to see 90% of the time. I dropped her when I started running manamorphose and haven't looked back. It gives the deck more of a "Exarch Twin" feel than an "Aggressive Jund" feel. It streamlines the approach: disrupt, fatty, protect, lethal
So I've been thinking about this since I have GDS and Goyfs from the old Suicide version, but no LoTV and have been curious if the 4C lists are viable without LoTV? Can I see your list?
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I'm considering to play a more aggro, more red and more suicide decklist without delirium, like this:
17 LANDS
1 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Watery Grave
3 Blood Crypt
16 CREATURES
4 Death's Shadow
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
27 SPELLS
1 Apostle's Blessing
2 Predator's Strike
2 Dismember
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mutagenic Growth
2 Stubborn Denial
3 Temur Battle Rage
2 Claim/Fame
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Hex parasite
SIDEBOARD
1 Abrade
2 Alpine Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Delay
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Fatal Push
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Assasin's Trophy
What is your opinion?
Maybe you're better off paying the new R Phoenix deck or infect instead, to be honest. They play that game better.
Yeah, man, wait until you experience stumbling through the deck. During me waiting in-between rounds I watched some of the Jund players play their opponents grixis shadow decks; they were really fumbling all about. It was fun to watch as a Jund player since it's just part of that experience. Your time with Jund/GBx doesn't translate quite as smoothly as you'd think into the shadow decks. I do feel as though the Shadow decks play the way jund players wished it would.
What was also nice is that against my grixis opponent game 2 I had 2 baubles, discard and a traverse. I managed to scry like 3 lands and smooth my hand out with just finding what I wanted with those scries. The play to these decks make me excited. Humans now down-ticking is fun, too.
Grixis Shadow was in 1st place this weekend in Liverpool and Portland. With humans going down it's becoming a good time again.
I play at a really competitive store in Philly, but last night was not accurate of what the modern meta looks like. There was so much Jund and Jeskai, it was really strange. I don't know if it's a Philly thing or what. In Texas I rarely ever went a night without seeing either 1 Tron deck or 1 Burn deck. Philly likes it's fair decks.
I couldn't enjoy the Shadow decks when everyone was playing maindeck Auriok Champs, Colossus, etc in the main deck.
Is that the IQ at the Comic Book Store? I’m also looking to go, but I’m still waffling between 3/4 colors.
4 colors feels right to me, man. I think there was maybe 1 game where I wish I had a stomping ground or something to traverse and shadow. Just save the catacombs as the last fetchland and you'll be fine. Stubborn denial on shriekhorn last night made my opponent just completely flounder on dredging and finding no land.
You should play with what your gut tells you to, though. You'll be more frustrated if you do poorly from advice from a stranger on the internet.
I'm banking on seeing no burn players there which is a risky meta call. I also need to dodge jund or jeskai as those matchups feel 70 30 to me, possibly worse.
To me, the blue feels worth it. We are shocking our life total, it's not a penalty. Uw also on a massive downswing and field of ruins is being seen in just Rock.
You also may know what that stores meta looks like? I dont. If it's a lot of midrange and creature decks maybe you are better with jund shadow. Dont ruin your play practice with a last second decision. Thats what fnms and mtgo practice rooms are for
I played a lot of 4/5 color last fall and it felt really robust and powerful, I've had it in mind as a fallback if I didn't feel like the 3-color version was performing. I think I'm just at a point where I'm trying to figure out if one really is better than the other on a general scale, or if they're so close that it doesn't matter. Matchups like Burn and KCI do seem like they'd be a bit easier with access to Stub, but against the creature decks I can really feel the effects of the extra couple removal spells.
I stopped losing to Dredge with Grixis Shadow when I realized that you could Stub all of their turn 1 plays, and then play a discard spell on your turn 2 to cleanly answer Cathartic Reunion. That obviously only works on the play, and only matters if you have those two spells in hand, but I think it's a common scenario and you can use it to snowball an advantage.
I feel like I could play both decks to a similar level, given that the switch to 4-color really only changes how you sideboard in some matchups and how you sequence your fetches. I think I would run a slightly different sideboard than yours though, I'm not a big fan of giving my opponent targets for Nature's Claim and I've really liked how Surgical Extraction operates in all of the Shadow decks.
My problem with 4-color has always been the consistency of the manabase. I like that your list plays 12 fetches and 6 mana producing lands, because where I think the mana fell apart in the past was trying to squeeze in the 7th mana producing land.
I haven't really played in paper in about 2 months, but historically the regulars at the shop tend to play a bit more fair, but IQ's can be a total crapshoot in terms of what the general field looks like. There's one shop regular that plays burn, but beyond that it's not over-represented at all. In general the IQ field there tends to be pretty open, but skews more towards what you would expect at an SCG Open than a GP.
I do understand your reservations about giving people targets for natures claims. What can also occur is that they keep a slow hand because they have that natures claim. The truth is, if my hand is damn good I wont mull for that leyline. I'll jam my own plan. I had plenty of games I was happy to see just good old discard into a fast clock. I could see myself playing 2x surgicals and 1 spellbomb, or 3x surgicals. I'd love to squeeze in that 4th push or 1st copy of collective brutality.
Any chance you'd post your 75 on both decks you're considering so I could bounce ideas off of you?
The extra removal is nice...but like ive said, I've also experienced too often having too much removal in hand and needing to put an instant in the grave to set up traverse. Me having 3x stubs also makes me feel better having 7 discard instead of 8. Which means stub can be a better late game card if I'm the aggressor.
The looting also makes me feel more comfortable playing leyline.
Alpine moon is fantastic and also hilarious against valalut decks. If tron wants to bring in natures claim thats fine. I wouldn't lean on a bad opener just to play alpine moon. The only decks I feel I can't jam my linear plan is on the draw against tribal decks. Thats when I lean on really wanting either 2 removals or 1 mass removal.
I think if you expect to see a TON of tribal you should go jund. I personally like to create builds with some diversity. It may be a lazier excuse not to meta call the shadow deck but I want some game against everything that isnt jeskai or jund. Or burn.
You may see me totally ***** the bed and lose 2 quick ones. You never know how it'll go.
If you see a decently amount of foiled out shadow it's probably me, by the way.
It's interesting that you mention not mulliganing to Leyline if you have a hand that can execute your plan well, because that exact trend is why I stopped running it. If you don't actually need Leyline to win, then I'm not as interested in dedicating 4 sideboard slots to it. When I originally moved away from Leyline I started with a 2/2 split of Spellbomb and Surgical, and I've gradually trimmed that to just the Surgicals. Surgical just makes your Snapcasters so much better as an early game play, my plan with Grixis against Dredge on the draw is basically spending turns 1-3 is stripping dredgers and casting/flashing back Surgical. I could see you needing at least a 3rd piece of hate if you're not running Snapcaster, though, in which case I really like Spellbomb. Spellbomb is probably also a good inclusion for you because it can give you an edge against Grixis Shadow, which can be a difficult matchup for either deck to really establish an advantage in. Have you played much against other Shadow decks?
I ran into issues with having a hand full of removal against decks without creatures, but that was in lists running 4 Push and 2 Dismember. With the list I posted a page or so ago I haven't really run into that issue, or its been mitigated to where I'm not noticing it as much.
I've always liked the idea of Alpine Moon in Grixis because it's so cheap to get online, and Grixis does a decent job of protecting it. I suppose I could see that working out for any Shadow deck running Stubborn Denial, although I really like Fulminator in Traverse for a lot of other reasons.
I forgot that you usually foil your stuff out, I'll keep my eyes open. I have a straight *****in' Majora's Mask playmat that's pretty hard to miss.
My Jund list hasn't changed from what I posted before, and if I were to run a 4-Color one I might actually just run your main deck, which I like. I would swap your Alpine Moon's for Fulminators, and instead of the Leylines I would try to get away with 2 Surgical, 1 Spellbomb, and a Hazoret, which is a personal favorite of mine. That would give the list a few more options for its fair matchups while (hopefully) not really sacrificing many percentage points against everything else. That's all without having actually played the list though, and it's very possible that Fulminator is just not reasonable with that mana base.
I'm also back to considering Grixis, because I live for indecision.
I dislike Fulminator in this deck a lot. Too slow, too clunky. I want to bypass people's important land and just kill them. Alpine Moon is also one mana, so the tempo game goes along nicely with it.
I see a great argument for 2x surgicals, 1 spellbomb and 1x Hazoret. I'd be down to run Hazoret. I won't do it at the IQ but I may run like 3x surgicals and a Haz in next weeks FNM.
Or 2x surgicals, the 4th push and a Haz.
If I had better sideboard cards for fair matchups I'd ditch Fulminator, but I like picking up a few percentage points against U/W/x and B/G/x in a sideboard that otherwise has very little to offer there.
I'm slowly leaning towards 3 Surgicals because of how well it lines up against the Phoenix decks, particularly Izzet.
I am mulling my decision about playing 3x surgicals instead of 4x leyline. Not sure yet.
18 LANDS
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Swamp
13 CREATURES
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death Shadow
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
29 SPELLS
4 Toughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra Bouble
2 Temur Battle Rage
2 Fatal Push
1 Tarfire
2 Faithless Looting
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Lighting Bolt
1 Dismember
2 Stubborn Denial
60 MAIN
15 SIDEBOARD
1 Assasin's Trophy
2 Collective Brutality
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Godless Shrine
3 Lingering Souls
1 Hazoret the Fervent
So, I have kept the white sideboard splash (I know not everybody likes this option). I have changed the Grim Flayer by a Ghor-Clan Rampager, in order to have a kind of travesable demi-TBR. Keep also Hazoret and increase a bit GY hate (3 cards now)because lot of Dredge.
I tried to not play blue, but most of your comments changed my mind. IMHO my problem was that I played bad the Stubs, keeping them in hand waiting for delirium. Need to play them in early turns when opponent is fully tap.
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Swamp
1x Forest
Creature (13)
4x Death's Shadow
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Death's Shadow
1x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Mishra's Bauble
2x Faithless Looting
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
4x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Stubborn Denial
2x Fatal Push
2x Tarfire
2x Dismember
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Temur Battle Rage
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Fatal Push
1x Abrade
2x Alpine Moon
1x Stubborn Denial
1x Disdainful Stroke
2x Assassin's Trophy
2x Radiant Flames
I trimmed 1x LOTV because right now she is not impressing me. Replaced her copy with the 2nd Dismember.
I am making a huge meta call and hoping to see a ton of combo/creature/tribal decks. I am ABSOLUTELY screwed if I see a ton of fair, heavy removal decks. I'll have very little game except for busted openers.
3x Surgicals seems like the right call. I think in Grixis I'd still play 4x Leylines.
I was going to make the Izzet Staticaster a collective brutality but decided I should really just lean into my meta call of not seeing burn if I'm going to do this.
Phantom Images and something like Scales made me think Izzet Staticaster may be a decent call.
Honestly, I'm a little nervous. I usually like to make safe, lazier calls where I feel prepped for a lot. I'm kinda really trying to hit a lottery pairing here, where, according to Defish, is quite the fair state.
I'll see. If I bomb the first two rounds at least I'll have a lot of that Saturday
I like the positioning of Staticaster against Spirits and Humans, since they're now leaning so hard on Reflector Mage to win matchups against decks with bigger creatures. While it can't kill Reflector Mage, Staticaster can block it and help buy time until you're able to re-deploy whatever was bounced.
I've actually found Burn to be reasonable as long as you're packing all 4 Stubs and are extremely conservative with your life total. Given the choice, against Burn I like fetching a Swamp turn 1 to play discard or kill something, then a forest turn 2 to play a Tarmogoyf, and then my third land I'll try to fetch a tapped red or blue source, depending on my hand. That's probably a little less feasible with your manabase, but being that extremely conservative with your life total can be the difference between winning and losing the matchup.
I'm also on 3 Surgicals and liking how it lines up against the meta right now.
This is what I'm currently looking at for Saturday:
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wooded Foothills
Artifact (4)
4x Mishra's Bauble
Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil
Instant (10)
3x Fatal Push
1x Kolaghan's Command
2x Tarfire
2x Temur Battle Rage
2x Terminate
4x Death's Shadow
1x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Street Wraith
4x Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (12)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
2x Abrade
2x Assassin's Trophy
2x Collective Brutality
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Languish
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Surgical Extraction
This deck plays out like a hyper-aggressive version of the classic Jund strategy of "strip your most relevant cards, beat you down with a hyper-efficient creature that you can't profitably block, and constrain your remaining resources with Liliana." Running 3 LotV in the main also lets this deck go toe-to-toe with the U/W and bigger B/G/x decks, because she tends to be such a good card in those matchups.
If we get matched up you're going to have an edge on me based on your removal.
Question...bringing up surgical extraction in this mirror? Is that idiotic? We only run 8 creatures and theres likely to be some grind into who runs out of removal.
The reason I can't get away from a straight Jund approach is specifically because of how good my removal suite is. The 4-color version is close, but I really like being able to play Terminate over Dismember. In an earlier iteration I was running Abrupt Decay instead of the K-Command in the main and was surprised by how useful it often was. For as much as we rag on that card because of the things it can't answer, it's still incredibly versatile for a maindeck card.
I still think it's a mistake to bring in Surgical against any Shadow variant. Because these decks don't run much card advantage, often times the winner seems to be the player who can make the most impactful use of their spells in jockeying for board position. Because Surgical doesn't affect the board, and because it's dependent on something else putting a creature in the graveyard first, I don't think its worth it. Additionally, I don't think there's anything that I would want to cut for it. And even though we're only running 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Shadow, we're also running Street Wraith, LotV, and Lily, the Last Hope as win conditions. And that's ignoring sideboard options like Hazoret, Scavenging Ooze, Fulminator Mage, and Snapcaster. The best Surgical someone ever used against me was when I was on Jund Traverse, they Inquisitioned a Goyf and Surgicaled it to hit the other 2 in my hand, and I still won that game because all of that card investment didn't stop me from slamming a Liliana of the Veil on my turn 3 that shut the game down for my opponent. I think that just having more removal will always be better than Surgical.
Draft My Cube!
Sorry to be the new guy to the deck suggesting off-the-wall cards for the SB, but has anyone ever thought about playing Painful Truths for the grindy MU’s? I just saw it in a Junk deck and hadn’t previously considered it for Modern, but it seems decent here. Converge is easy for us and the “pain” part of the card goes along with our plan.
Edit: I guess it has in fact been considered. I just found a bunch of lists last year running it. I wonder why it hasn’t shown up this year? I guess “the grind” isn’t much of a concern right now.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
So, I bombed out at the IQ. My first match was against BG. Game 1 my opponent mulled to a 6 lander and stuck on 1 land for a bit but he had enough pushes and goyfs to get there. Game 2 he discarded and surgicaled my shadow.
Match 2 was infect. She had it foiled out so she knew her stuff. It was stressful and I won game 3.
Lost two close ones against Scales and dropped.
DeFish on the other hand, was steamrolling everyone and I'm 90% confident he was able to ID into top 8. I think he made the right call, Jund Shadow was the way to go. The blue wasn't very relevant for me today in all 3 matches. There were way more fair decks than I thought.
I bought into Izzet Phoenix and Storm with trading in my UW Control staples so I didn't feel too bad. Also won the door prize of a dice bag which was traded for a nice Liliana play-mat.
I still think the shadow decks are worth playing more than regular Jund/Rock, despite my performance.
So I've been thinking about this since I have GDS and Goyfs from the old Suicide version, but no LoTV and have been curious if the 4C lists are viable without LoTV? Can I see your list?
UBR Grixis Shadow
URG Amulet Titan