Against Spirits counter magic works a little better because they don't always Vial, and they have non-creature spells that can't be protected with Cavern of Souls. I like Delay, Lightning bolt, and Radiant flames here. But Spell Queller is the absolute MVP for them. Delay is very powerful against them but I suppose the Mana Leak plan could work as well.
Against both decks you really want to protect your life total because they can go wide out of nowhere. Apostle's Blessing is certainly an interesting choice. It could even double as evasion if you need to swing big. Almost all their creatures are white which is relevant in this case.
I've seen K-Command used against either deck but I don't know if that's right. It's not always a 2-for-1 and against critical matches like this I don't want to be spending three Mana unless it's definitely creating board/card advantage. Languish can't be correct here because they both have tax effects (Thalia & Wanderer) so 4 Mana is near uncastable.
I wonder if Nature's Way could be a nice tech here that doubles as removal?
Rending Volley is a card if you want to get super narrow but it has cross-applicability in that it hits almost all of humans too.
Rending Volley is interesting but the fact that it doesn't hit Noble, Freebooter, and can still be "countered" with Spell Queller..is a deal breaker for me
Rending Volley is a card if you want to get super narrow but it has cross-applicability in that it hits almost all of humans too.
I think Pyroclasm and Kozilek's Return are just worse than other sweepers right now. You really need to deal 3 damage to clear things like Mantis Rider, creatures with Thalia's Lietenant counters on them, or double Drokskol Captain. Radiant Flames, or Anger if you can support the RR, are superior IMO.
Stuff that's good against Spirits might be weaker vs. humans and vice versa.
Rending Volley, in reality, is often just another bolt against Spirits that can't be countered by Wanderer. Personally, more bolts with upside is often "good enough" -- maybe just play more fatal pushes and lightning bolts.
If you guys really really need to tap out while holding up removal then you should play Slaughter Pact.
I basically expanded on one or two of my comments in this thread
Hi spooly, i read your article and reddit post. It all comes off a bit grim regarding the deck. Do you think its time to give up on the deck for the time being?
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Yes, he says it somewhere in the comments in reddit. He said you're better off playing Humans, that has similar good matchups. I think he also said things like KCI and Tron are a better deck right now.
I basically expanded on one or two of my comments in this thread
Hi spooly, i read your article and reddit post. It all comes off a bit grim regarding the deck. Do you think its time to give up on the deck for the time being?
Only if all you care about is winning. But if you don't want to drop the $$ for a different deck, or just like playing it, it's still one of the infinitely many tier 2ish decks in modern.
What does the rest of your main deck look like that those are your only two options? I've generally swapped between 1 Ghor-clan Rampager and 1 Grim Flayer, based on if I want to race harder or have higher threat density.
What does the rest of your main deck look like that those are your only two options? I've generally swapped between 1 Ghor-clan Rampager and 1 Grim Flayer, based on if I want to race harder or have higher threat density.
I would cut an Assassin's Trophy. You're already running 7 discard spells and 3 Stubborn Denials, so you're already pretty insulated against things that only Trophy can hit. In that vein, I think you can actually drop the other 2 Trophies for Dismembers.
I like the flexibility of Astro. I was thinking it would be better to cut creature removal since it can double as that, or discard bacause it's a worse topdeck draw.
The flexibility is great, but Traverse Shadow really thrives in low-resource games, and Trophy nets your opponent resources. I think that makes Trophy a really good sideboard card, because you can have the choice to only bring it in for games where that doesn't matter as much, or the cost is worth it. Trophy is notably worse against creature decks than an actual removal spell, and both Spirits and Hardened Scales use that extra mana very effectively. Additionally, Dismember is considerably easier on a 4-C manabase than Trophy.
Edit- For what it's worth, the Traverse Shadow lists I was testing right after Trophy came out had 3 in the main deck. I've slowly transitioned them to the sideboard, one at a time, since then.
Back to 4C, Defish? I've been wanting to practice with 4C this week but have been swamped with work. I really liked yesterdays 4C list from MTGO results.
I do agree that Trophy seems like an amazing sideboard card, but better off when sideboard hate lands.
I’ve actually been playing straight Jund, in an attempt to determine if you really need Stubborn Denial in Traverse. I’m basically playing it as a lower to the ground Jund, which was basically what Traverse was when it first showed up.
I finally got around to playing 4c on modo last nigh, just in practice rooms. I'm finding it to be surprisingly good. Fatal push has plummeted in stock which is making goyf fantastic. More so than big fish.
I cut 1x inquisition just to cut 1 bad top deck by a tiny fraction. I'm a little unsure about the lotv and k command ratio. I squeezed in 2x loots just to mitigate flooding or opening hands but not enough that I'll groan seeing it.
I do like stubborn denial though, I think it's great. I've never been a believer in the white splash.
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Against both decks you really want to protect your life total because they can go wide out of nowhere. Apostle's Blessing is certainly an interesting choice. It could even double as evasion if you need to swing big. Almost all their creatures are white which is relevant in this case.
I've seen K-Command used against either deck but I don't know if that's right. It's not always a 2-for-1 and against critical matches like this I don't want to be spending three Mana unless it's definitely creating board/card advantage. Languish can't be correct here because they both have tax effects (Thalia & Wanderer) so 4 Mana is near uncastable.
I wonder if Nature's Way could be a nice tech here that doubles as removal?
Draft My Cube!
Something dumb like a Pyroclasm or Kozilek's Return (kills etched champ too) are reasonable cards.
Rending Volley is a card if you want to get super narrow but it has cross-applicability in that it hits almost all of humans too.
Rending Volley is interesting but the fact that it doesn't hit Noble, Freebooter, and can still be "countered" with Spell Queller..is a deal breaker for me
Draft My Cube!
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
https://www.mtgcanada.com/modern/playing-jund-shadow-not-grixis/
Here's that article I was referring to about Jund Shadow.
I think Pyroclasm and Kozilek's Return are just worse than other sweepers right now. You really need to deal 3 damage to clear things like Mantis Rider, creatures with Thalia's Lietenant counters on them, or double Drokskol Captain. Radiant Flames, or Anger if you can support the RR, are superior IMO.
You just described every card DS can play.
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I mean, you guys gotta pick your targets.
Stuff that's good against Spirits might be weaker vs. humans and vice versa.
Rending Volley, in reality, is often just another bolt against Spirits that can't be countered by Wanderer. Personally, more bolts with upside is often "good enough" -- maybe just play more fatal pushes and lightning bolts.
If you guys really really need to tap out while holding up removal then you should play Slaughter Pact.
I basically expanded on one or two of my comments in this thread
Hi spooly, i read your article and reddit post. It all comes off a bit grim regarding the deck. Do you think its time to give up on the deck for the time being?
Only if all you care about is winning. But if you don't want to drop the $$ for a different deck, or just like playing it, it's still one of the infinitely many tier 2ish decks in modern.
Currently:
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
Spells
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Temur Battle Rage
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Tarfire
2 Liliana of the Veil
Lands
2 Blood Crypt
4 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Breeding Pool
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
Edit- For what it's worth, the Traverse Shadow lists I was testing right after Trophy came out had 3 in the main deck. I've slowly transitioned them to the sideboard, one at a time, since then.
I do agree that Trophy seems like an amazing sideboard card, but better off when sideboard hate lands.
I cut 1x inquisition just to cut 1 bad top deck by a tiny fraction. I'm a little unsure about the lotv and k command ratio. I squeezed in 2x loots just to mitigate flooding or opening hands but not enough that I'll groan seeing it.
I do like stubborn denial though, I think it's great. I've never been a believer in the white splash.